Zion guiding

[boryaa]

I've heard that guiding in Zion is not allowed. Canyoneering nor rock climbing. I'm curious to why this is? I don't know if this was posted before but would appreciate any info, thanks.

[Iceaxe]

You are correct. Commercial guiding is not allowed inside Zion NP. Every National Park is allowed to set their own rules in regards to guiding. Zion NP has decided that commercial guiding is not in the best interest of the park and its goals or objectives.

We can argue the merits but personally I'm extremely happy Zion does not allow guiding. The resources in Zion are already extremely limited, heavily permitted and regulated. As a privateer I would hate to be forced to compete for limited permits against commercial guides making a profit from the park I own as a US citizen.

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[Bootboy]

^^^THIS^^^

I abhor commercially guided climbing and canyoneering, with VERY few exceptions.

It ranks among the worst forms of exploitation in my mind and I'd love to see it banned in other national parks (I'm looking at you Grand Teton). Selling wilderness to people who haven't got the true interest enough to become passionate and competent. Advanced babysitting.


LNT

[Iceaxe]

I'd love to see it banned in other national parks (I'm looking at you Grand Teton)

If I understand things correctly Teton doesn't have a real choice as the guide services were established before Teton became a National Park. To get rid of Teton guides the NP Service would be forced to buy the two companies and they would demand a lot of coin as they are both long established and highly profitable.



Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[Scott P]

I agree that guiding isn't a good idea in Zion because of a shortage of permits.


It ranks among the worst forms of exploitation in my mind and I'd love to see it banned in other national parks (I'm looking at you Grand Teton). Selling wilderness to people who haven't got the true interest enough to become passionate and competent. Advanced babysitting.

As Shane pointed out a few times, almost everyone who climbs has been guided. You may not have paid for it, but when it comes to technical terrain, almost everyone has had a guide, parent, friend, teacher, or partner, to show him/her the ropes.

[Bootboy]

I agree that guiding isn't a good idea in Zion because of a shortage of permits.



As Shane pointed out a few times, almost everyone who climbs has been guided. You may not have paid for it, but when it comes to technical terrain, almost everyone has had a guide, parent, friend, teacher, or partner, to show him/her the ropes.

It's the money that I hate. You're right, I was shown some neat places. But my family/friends weren't in it for the money. That's my whole point.


LNT

[Scott P]

Most guides aren't in it for the money. Most of the time it seems that they just want to make a living doing something that is actually enjoyable.

I did guide (backpacking) for a couple of summers (Uinta Mountains). I made what would be the equivalent of about $622 a month in today's wages/2014 dollars. Of course technical guides make more. I still don't know any rich guides, but maybe some exist out there.

If I didn't have a family support, I only wish I could go guide and show some people some cool places. It wouldn't be in Zion though, because I agree that it isn't a good idea to guide there.

I actually did think about buying this business:

http://www.extremedominica.com/

On the other hand, I don't think I could do it since my wife has heart problems and will need a surgery sometime in the near(?) future and I have two kids.

[Iceaxe]

I still don't know any rich guides, but maybe some exist out there.

I know a couple rich guides, depending on how you want to define rich. Or to put it better I know a couple guides that live in large houses, drive nice cars and make a very comfortable living.



Most guides aren't in it for the money. Most of the time it seems that they just want to make a living doing something that is actually enjoyable.

This is actually why most guides (and most people) are not rich. The money is not as important as reaching a comfortable place in life. Making a lot of money at anything requires extremely hard work, long hours, perseverance and high stress, usually one of those items excludes many from banking major coin.

[mzamp]

As Shane pointed out a few times, almost everyone who climbs has been guided. You may not have paid for it, but when it comes to technical terrain, almost everyone has had a guide, parent, friend, teacher, or partner, to show him/her the ropes.

Having a mentor or taking an instructional class is not the same (at least for this discussion) as being guided.

[Scott P]

Having a mentor or taking an instructional class is not the same (at least for this discussion) as being guided.

Actually it is, only you usually don't pay for it.

[hank moon]

I once shared some of the anti-guiding sentiment expressed in this thread...until I became a guide.

Whatever you think of guiding, unless you have actually done it for a living, you don't really know what it is about.

You just think you do*.

The above generally holds true whenever strong opinion is combined with weak knowledge.




* Just as I don't know what being a doctor or lawyer is really about, though I often judge those professions.

[Iceaxe]

Having a mentor or taking an instructional class is not the same (at least for this discussion) as being guided.

I disagree... It's all about "Getting some skills"... I fail to see how paying to get the skills is any better or worse than any of the other methods. In fact I'll argue a professional guide has many advantages over your brother/friend/uncle....



Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[Bootboy]

I once shared some of the anti-guiding sentiment expressed in this thread...until I became a guide.

Whatever you think of guiding, unless you have actually done it for a living, you don't really know what it is about.

You just think you do*.

The above generally holds true whenever strong opinion is combined with weak knowledge.




* Just as I don't know what being a doctor or lawyer is really about, though I often judge those professions.

I don't need to know what it's about. I don't pretend to know anything more than what I do. I know that I disagree with people buying their way into these places. I think it's a borderline unethical way to make a living.

Of course they don't do it to get rich, Scott.

I just believe that wilderness should not be a business. In my mind, it's antithetical to the philosophy that is the concept of American wilderness. That's it.


LNT

[Byron]

I don't mind the Guide Thing at all. The way I see it, most of them are teaching the noobs how to do it right...without tearing things up in a self learning process. Including themselves.

Sure, there's some shyster types out there, but those exist everywhere, in everything.

[moab mark]

^^^THIS^^^

I abhor commercially guided climbing and canyoneering, with VERY few exceptions.

It ranks among the worst forms of exploitation in my mind and I'd love to see it banned in other national parks (I'm looking at you Grand Teton). Selling wilderness to people who haven't got the true interest enough to become passionate and competent. Advanced babysitting.


LNT

So what are the guides doing in Teton Nat Park that has your panties in a wad?

[qedcook]

It's the money that I hate.

That explains a lot! :lol8:

[Brian in SLC]

I once shared some of the anti-guiding sentiment expressed in this thread...until I became a guide.

Whatever you think of guiding, unless you have actually done it for a living, you don't really know what it is about.

You just think you do*.

The above generally holds true whenever strong opinion is combined with weak knowledge.

* Just as I don't know what being a doctor or lawyer is really about, though I often judge those professions.

Nor are you a polititian...along your same lines of thought...ha ha.

[Brian in SLC]

So what are the guides doing in Teton Nat Park that has your panties in a wad?

Went to an AAC meeting held at Snowbird here in Utah a few years ago. For better or worse (ha ha), carpooled with a friend who'd recently written a scathing letter to the Park Service in the Tetons railing about one of the guide services up there. Well...the guide service got taken to task for some of their behavior, it seems. We walk into the meeting, and, the first person we see and have contact with is an owner of said guide service. The pleasantries went like this: "Alan, fu#k you."

Musta been a great letter.

I've climbed in the Tetons a bunch (over 60 ascents of at least 50 different routes, not counting attempts, over nearly 30 years). Have friends who guide and own the guide services up there. I've had "issues" on a very few occasions. Heard plenty of stories. Been with a few guides up there on their off days. Been there when guides have died. So, I could add plenty of juice to the guide conversation in the Tetons. For the most part, they really don't bother me much. Always let me play through. And, they have their gigs wired. Usually a smile and a howdy for the most part.

One thing that's nice in the Tetons, is, that climbers don't need permits to climb. Just over night camping. And, the guide services have their own lodging spots already designated, so, they don't eat up quotas for camp sites.

[SRG]

This thread (http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?65708-Canyoneering-death-in-the-Subway) turns into an interesting discussion about guiding in Zion.

[Bootboy]

That explains a lot! :lol8:

And just what do you think it explains?


LNT

[hank moon]

Nor are you a polititian...along your same lines of thought...ha ha.

Busted!

What's interesting to me about this discussion is the compartmentalized thinking, judgment of an abstract idea, avoiding reality.

It's an easy mental trick to frame guiding as "making money off wilderness" and then judge that.

Just as easily, one might say that Bootboy is "making money off wilderness" by manufacturing and distributing canyoneering equipment, and then judge that.

But isn't reality a lot more than words?


http://www.jiddu-krishnamurti.net/en/exploration-into-insight/1976-12-13-jiddu-krishnamurti-exploration-into-insight-registration-the-movement-of-millennia

A: Clarity for us means naming. When we want to probe into a strong feeling, a disturbance, we want to know precisely what it is, we don't want any self-deception. Invariably, before we have been able to grasp it completely, we have named it. So, naming is both our instrument of clarity and the cause of confusion.


K: Is the word different from the fact, from `what is'? Is the word `door' different from the door? The word `door' is not the actuality. So, the word is not the thing.

[Byron]

Nice Hank!! Personally, I'd just call it hypocrisy. Sorry, Bootboy.

[Bootboy]

The way I view it, I'm simply equipping those who wish to seek these places out of their own accord. I don't sell wilderness, I sell actual goods, Not services.


LNT

[Byron]

The way I view it, I'm simply equipping those who wish to seek these places out of their own accord. I don't sell wilderness, I sell actual goods, Not services.


LNTAnd you would tell the man who sells the service, not the goods that he's in the wrong? Reread the stuff that Hank posted...it's pretty good.

My opinion is that if your going to hate something, hate it big. Go misanthropic all the way. I try not to go there very often...I figure as long as no one is breaking stuff, it's all good.

[Bootboy]

I wouldnt tell him he's in the wrong as it would serve no purpose. I'm philosophically opposed to it but I'm not going to be a jerk to their face.

FWIW I have several friends who are professional guides for for Exum and JHMG.


LNT

[qedcook]

I have several friends who are professional guides for for Exum and JHMG.


Irrelevant and pointless. This means nothing. A racist could have friends from different races than his own. But he can't claim to not be a racist simply because he has some friends that are not of his own race.

[Bootboy]

Irrelevant and pointless. This means nothing. A racist could have friends from different races than his own. But he can't claim to not be a racist simply because he has some friends that are not of his own race.

Come to think of it, I'm a pretty racist bastard....

[dallison]

Observations from yesterday (6/27) in Moab:

1. There are A LOT of guiding companies in Moab that run Medieval Chamber. I know that firsthand because we got an early-ish start and hit the chamber rap station about 7:45...about 15-30 minutes before 5 HUGE guided groups arrived. By the time half of our group of beginners were down and waiting in the chamber, there were 4 additional ropes rigged and paying customers rapping in...at the same time! I was already down rigging the next rappel but one member of our group estimated that there were at least 75 people milling around waiting their turn to rap in to the chamber.

2. Guides play by their own rules (at least in this location on that day). When a group arrived at the scene, there was no "hey, mind if we rap down next to you guys?" or "we have a fast group...mind if we play through?" They just throw and go. There were several times when one of our group had to wait in the mid-pool until one of their ropes would unweight and lift off our pinned rope before continuing.

3. After thinking about it for a while, I decided that the guide services weren't really being rude, they are just used to those conditions. They encounter them at least every weekend and they all know the gig. I'm sure it never even crossed their minds to communicate with us--they just assumed that we should know what's up...and we probably should have.

4. I pity the tourists that hike up the canyon to take pictures of Morning Glory Arch and maybe find some solitude. I know our group was part of the problem but it was a mass of people at the bottom of the arch and looking up at 4 or 5 people coming down at a time probably diminishes the experience at the arch. There have been a few times when I have been part of a small group rappelling down into that location and tourists/hikers have all been excited to see us and have had lots of questions for us. This time, with that many people rapping in at the same time, it was a completely different feel.

5. If you go to Moab and want to run MChamber, don't do it on a Friday/Saturday morning.

6. I guess MChamber could/should be considered a "sacrificial" canyon in Moab. If I remember the history correctly, it was pioneered by a guiding service so maybe they do have rights to it (I don't really think that but maybe that's the way they feel).

7. Which canyons will be similarly overrun in Zion if guiding is allowed there? Keyhole, Subway, Birch, Orderville and Pinecreek for sure. Come to think of it, those mostly already are all super busy but guiding would take it to a whole new level or make it nearly impossible for the average guy (on his own) to get in at all.

8. The guides I observed were fast, efficient, safe and just doing their job. I don't have any issues with them personally or even the companies that employ them. It seems like a great way to make a living. Apparently there is a huge pool of people willing to pay big money to have a canyoneering experience...even if it doesn't resemble the canyoneering experience that I enjoy.

9. I would give up canyoneering before fighting huge crowds like that again. Actually, since I can't give up canyoneering, I would just start at 4 AM or pick the canyons way too painful for paying customers.


I hate the regulations and permit system in ZNP...but I hate it WAY LESS than I did 2 days ago.

[mzamp]

I disagree... It's all about "Getting some skills"... I fail to see how paying to get the skills is any better or worse than any of the other methods. In fact I'll argue a professional guide has many advantages over your brother/friend/uncle....
Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

Well, I don't have a brother and my friend is a guide and instructor. But I wasn't talking about paying or not paying to get the skills. All I said was a mentor is not the same as a guide. I don't feel doing a guided trip is about "getting skills" as much as it is about accomplishing the activity you are being guided for in a safe manner. Sure you can learn stuff being guided, but it is not the same as taking a class or going with an experienced friend. Now I could be completely wrong since the only guide I have used was for white water rafting, but I doubt guides would ever let their clients rig the anchors for example. And generally speaking, I don't think people use guides to "get skills" anyway.

FWIW - I have no problems with guides or guiding companies as long as the access rules are fair for everyone.

[Iceaxe]

Sure you can learn stuff being guided, but it is not the same as taking a class or going with an experienced friend. Now I could be completely wrong since the only guide I have used was for white water rafting,.

A guided rafting trip and a guided climbing/canyoneering trip are nothing alike. A guided rafting trip is more like riding the local bus or taking a cruise where you just sit back and enjoy the scenery.


A good climbing/canyoneering guide should be teaching all the time. A good climbing/canyoneering guide will adjust his instructions to suit the clients. This is one method of figuring out if your guide is any good or not. If you are a first time canyoneer visiting a slot the guide will not be teaching knots and anchors, but probably be instructing on plants, animals and topography. If you are a skilled climber/canyoneer using a guide for one of any number of reasons the guide should be instructing on local practices, ethics, and helping you with skills you are lacking. A good guide will know what to help with just from watching and experience as it is his job is to make your trip enjoyable.


I have used guides before when climbing and I consider a good guide one who brings me home safe, has taught me new skills, and treated me as a less experienced friend and not a paying client.


FWIW: the only problem I have with commercial guiding is when they are competing against privateers for limit permits.

[ratagonia]

A guided rafting trip and a guided climbing/canyoneering trip are nothing alike. A guided rafting trip is more like riding the local bus or taking a cruise where you just sit back and enjoy the scenery.

A good climbing/canyoneering guide should be teaching all the time. A good climbing/canyoneering guide will adjust his instructions to suit the clients. This is one method of figuring out if your guide is any good or not. If you are a first time canyoneer visiting a slot the guide will not be teaching knots and anchors, but probably be instructing on plants, animals and topography. If you are a skilled climber/canyoneer using a guide for one of any number of reasons the guide should be instructing on local practices, ethics, and helping you with skills you are lacking. A good guide will know what to help with just from watching and experience as it is his job is to make your trip enjoyable.

I have used guides before when climbing and I consider a good guide one who brings me home safe, has taught me new skills, and treated me as a less experienced friend and not a paying client.



Guides and guiding companies have different styles... and who is to say which of these qualifies as "good"?

At ZAC, we do as much teaching as the clients desire. When guiding, I rarely actually rig rappels. Usually I have the youngest kid set up the first rappel "what do you think we should do here?" and then rotate through the kids - whatever is going to be the most fun. That is our STYLE.

With adults much the same, usually picking out the shyest, least-experienced as the starting point. People get scared when they are standing around. Give them something to do, put them up front, instructing them on doing easy things and they forget that they are scared of heights and intimidated by the challenge.

YMMV.

Tom

[ratagonia]

Observations from yesterday (6/27) in Moab:

1. There are A LOT of guiding companies in Moab that run Medieval Chamber. I know that firsthand because we got an early-ish start and hit the chamber rap station about 7:45...about 15-30 minutes before 5 HUGE guided groups arrived. By the time half of our group of beginners were down and waiting in the chamber, there were 4 additional ropes rigged and paying customers rapping in...at the same time! I was already down rigging the next rappel but one member of our group estimated that there were at least 75 people milling around waiting their turn to rap in to the chamber.



Because of damage caused by self-guided canyoneers in Arches National Park, there are considerably fewer venues that guide companies are able to use in the Moab area. Thus they get concentrated in a few specific canyons.

If you would like to avoid the crowds, especially the guided crowds, go to the many, many places where the guided groups are not allowed to go.

Tom

[Iceaxe]

Because of damage caused by self-guided canyoneers in Arches National Park, there are considerably fewer venues that guide companies are able to use in the Moab area. Thus they get concentrated in a few specific canyons.

If you would like to avoid the crowds, especially the guided crowds, go to the many, many places where the guided groups are not allowed to go.

Guided or unguided.... it's almost impossible to escape the crowds near Moab. If you want solitude you need to look for routes that are further than 15 minutes from the nearest motel, restaurant or bar.

[reflection]

Oh the dimensions of guiding, and how some seem so virtuous from their own vantage point, than from anybody else's. Too many examples, in my view, in the world, the nation and the Western United States where guiding is an acceptable practice and where it is met with skepticism. Historical practice, manner of use, frequency and overall use patterns shape views on guiding. If the clock were to be turned back though and there were NO guiding in National Parks, Forest Service or BLM lands; it would likely be the politicians and not the land managers that would provide the initial directive. Interested parties and stakeholders would argue pro and con; and most of us (I assume) would vote YES re the Grand Canyon and maybe the Tetons? And then what would we (canyoneers) say about the rest of the desert Colorado Plateau, or Colorado (mountains) or California. None, some, limited guiding should be allowed?

I've been involved with many land managers who look at guiding renewals and at initiations. Applications, certifications and liability insurance are the bell weather - and always there is a trumpeted announcement of public DEMAND by the applicant. Savvy land managers though will monitor initial applicants and on a calendar/seasonal basis & monitor how many days guiding actually occurs, number of visitors, duration and location. Some guide services that have a coverage of X, will actually spend 75-90% of their time in areas A, B, C of X and land managers may or may not know about it. And at the end of season, some land managers will have no idea as to the frequency of guide visitations and the potential frequency of contact with other non-guided visitors. (Did a viable demand actually exist?)

I've wandered the contours of Zion for decades; with regular frequency (paid) guiding goes on (off the radar) in rock climbing and in canyoneering. Stupid or ignorant combatants that advertise and then take out paying guests are easy targets for prosecutors; but these are few & the isolated types. (So many climbing walls) Angels Landing, Subway, Orderville, Keyhole, Pine Creek, Zion Narrows; if you put your antenna up, you can sometimes spot (spy) the guide and paid guests in action. And sometimes these happy go lucky guides reside in Springdale, Rockville, Hurricane or St. George.

And the act of guiding, in the Zion area - in zones where guiding is allowed. Water Canyon, Birch Hollow, Lambs Knoll. If the guide has four paying guests, is using belays on some, not on others, has had short training sessions and provides opportunity for learning along the way; how much different is that from the man or woman that takes four teens down Birch Hollow and duplicates to a tee the same practices and (supreme safety concerns) processes? One operates with an outfit with liability insurance and paid guests and the other operates with a profound concern for the welfare of the youth (probably the same as the guides) and if they are alert, they will teach, engage and cause participants to feel as partners and potentially learn to leave no trace, be quiet and be sensitive to the needs of others that may be in a canyon. If a paid guide goes out week after week with paying customers that are strangers, yes, that is a very different experience than going with known commodities. But if per chance four of those potential paying customers went out with a non-paid mentor would the experience (that day) be much different than what the guide experienced? Who knows; or maybe none of this matters.

Harmony or dysfunction when running into paid guided groups? I've had some less than rosy experiences with (some) guides in Moab, North Wash, Robbers Roost; and mostly positive interaction with guides and (small) guided groups in the Zion area. Yes, one day in Birch Hollow, when "ACA Rondy" had maybe 50 people bunched up on 2-3 raps in the canyon, I got to chat with a most pleasant guide and his young wife/husband guests (that were learning along the way). That day the guide & I agreed that the only blessing for ACA rondy folk (that day) was that they be a thousand miles away. (Birch Hollow, the sacrificial lamb, so to say). Guides and/or guardian angels, maybe there is room for both (to some degree) in this society of ours.