Who took out the bolt on the last rap in Alcatraz?

[Jaxx]

You are a dumbass.

[Scott P]

Which rap was it at? There are only two raps in Alcatraz, one off the bumper and one above the semi-keeper pothole. There used to be an old bolt somewhere down canyon of this, but it's not a place that was normally rappelled. Is this the place?

I've heard that there were at least three other new bolts in other places in Alcatraz, but they were in places that had easy downclimbs, rather than rappels. I also heard that those were removed (last year). It was in a trip report and a thread both before and after the removal. At the time it seems that most everyone was in favor of the removal.

Which location are you referring to by chance? The "last rappel in Alcatraz" means at the pothole near the beginning perhaps? There was a new piton that was removed there as well.

The "last rappel in Alctaraz" might refer to more than one location? Most people I know (and probably most doing the canyon) only do two rappels, one of the bumper and one at the pothole.

[skiclimb3287]

I recall seeing a TR on here last year that the ancient bolt above the downclimb down the chute had been removed, but don't recall from who. Pretty easy down climb, especially using a partner assist. As Scott said, there never were bolts at either of the two rappels.

No need for name calling. There was much praise for it if I recall correctly and I don't remember seeing any other complaints on this in the past. Seems like most accepted it as the best thing and never saw any issue with it. That being said, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

...why do I sense another bolt war coming on... [emoji50]

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

[MrAdam]

Slot Machine removed the bolt at the downclimb right before the crux that used to have a handline on it. It is a fairly easy downclimb. I completely agree with the removal of the bolt.

[Iceaxe]

The Roost is considered a bolt free environment by many, and all bolts will be removed, If you don't like that please stick to the kiddie canyons in Zion, Moab and the Swell.

If you are expecting to find a bolt in the Roost, even if one was once there, you are a dumbass.

Any questions?

:popcorn:

[Bootboy]

The Roost is considered a bolt free environment by many, and all bolts will be removed, If you don't like that please stick to the kiddie canyons in Zion, Moab and the Swell.

If you are expecting to find a bolt in the Roost, even if one was once there, you are a dumbass.

Any questions?

:popcorn:

^^^THIS^^^


LNT

[davehuth]

The Roost is considered a bolt free environment by many, and all bolts will be removed, If you don't like that please stick to the kiddie canyons in Zion, Moab and the Swell.

If you are expecting to find a bolt in the Roost, even if one was once there, you are a dumbass.

Any questions?

:popcorn:

I don't know how to put a bolt in, nor remove one. We ran into a bolt in Big Spring West a couple weeks ago that seemed quite unnecessary, and like usual we just kept moving thru the canyon, didn't try to remove it and didn't say anything about it. What is the right thing to do?

[hank moon]

What is the right thing to do?

Dial B11 & report immediately

[SRG]

The Roost is a beautiful and rugged and wild area. In order to maintain these properties it is important to take reasonable efforts to cover ones tracks and to leave no trace behind when we visit.

I've never come across a canyon in The Roost where I felt a bolt was necessary for a safe descent. They are a hunk of metal left behind by humans in the wild, where they have no place.

Personally, my aversion to bolts is more of an emotional than a logical one. To me the permanency of a bolt has always represented human domination over slot canyons which I think is a dangerous and disrespectful and destructive idea.

[ratagonia]

Great to hear that the atrocious bolts have been removed from da canyon. That old bolt was timebomb waiting to talus-food an unwary traveler.

Tom :moses:

[Bootboy]

"Talus-food" Haha!
That is being added to my lexicon.


LNT

[Byron]

didn't try to remove it and didn't say anything about it. What is the right thing to do?In my opinion, yes.

I crack up at those folks that get their panties in a wad over a stinking bolt. Every single time I've dove into an unknown canyon and found a bolt, I say "Right on! Now I don't have to fish around for rocks.

I'm all about wilderness, let me tell ya. But to me, if these slots are going to be done, then having them safer for descent is fine with me. Of course I'm not advocating for zip lines or anything like that, but a dinky little bolt is hardly a goin' concern.

I know that virtually all canyons can be descended without bolts, but there's all kinds of idiots out there doing all kinds of stupid stuff.

[Iceaxe]

I crack up at those folks that get their panties in a wad over a stinking bolt. Every single time I've dove into an unknown canyon and found a bolt, I say "Right on! Now I don't have to fish around for rocks.

Typical noob attitude.....

Let me know how you feel in 10 or 20 years, after you have been canyoneering the same awesome canyon year after year and than you show up one day and discover someone has dumbed down a route you previously considered a classic.

I will guarantee you at that moment you will feel the same sadness and loathing of bolts that you now hear from the grey beards.

Those of you fairly new to the sport (started doing it in the last 10 years) owe a giant thank you to the grey beards that have fought the same bolt battle for years. Because of their efforts some of you get to descended slots just as the pioneers found them.

Some of the grey beards will be aging out of the sport in the near future and it's up to those now entering the sport to preserve the canyons. I hope you are up to the challenge.


Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[deagol]

This thread reminds me of what is happening around here with our mountain-bike trails being "sanitized" (obstacles removed and the trail being made boring and un-challenging). The noobs sanitize, the experts want the trails to remain challenging. The obvious equivalent here is the canyon experts want the canyons to remain bolt-free. I am not an expert, but my vote goes along with them anyway. I will continue to hone my skills to come up to the natural level of the canyon, not bolt it to bring it down to my current level. With that, I would have to say the original post is pretty offensive.

[Byron]

Typical noob attitude.....

Let me know how you feel in 10 or 20 years, after you have been canyoneering the same awesome canyon year after year and than you show up one day and discover someone has dumbed down a route you previously considered a classic.

I have been canyoneering for 20 years, Iceaxe...and prior to 2005 I ran into lots of bolts...installed by the vaulted "grey beards".

Everyone has their hot buttons, of course. Personally, I'm more bothered by a pile of human crap and a wad of buttwipe than a piece of (convenient) metal.

[deagol]

I have been canyoneering for 20 years, Iceaxe...and prior to 2005 I ran into lots of bolts...installed by the vaulted "grey beards".

Everyone has their hot buttons, of course. Personally, I'm more bothered by a pile of human crap and a wad of buttwipe than a piece of (convenient) metal.

Yes, there is even footage of Turville putting in bolts back in the day,
but as to the human waste issue,
I would hope no one likes seeing THAT in canyons... surely everyone agrees on that?

but this point comes across like a :strawman:

[Jaxx]

Which rap was it at? There are only two raps in Alcatraz, one off the bumper and one above the semi-keeper pothole. There used to be an old bolt somewhere down canyon of this, but it's not a place that was normally rappelled. Is this the place?

Sorry, should have said handline/rap/downclimb. I think it was the very last bolt in the canyon down the flute.

[Jaxx]

The Roost is considered a bolt free environment by many, and all bolts will be removed, If you don't like that please stick to the kiddie canyons in Zion, Moab and the Swell.
Isn't Alcatraz a kiddie canyon? Nothing too difficult in there.


If you are expecting to find a bolt in the Roost, even if one was once there, you are a dumbass.

There isn't much in the near area to make a deadman. From what I remember. It wasn't me that I got the report from so I'm working off memory here. Guess I will take my bolt kit down next time. I thought it was a good place for a bolt to assist the downclimb or set up a quick rap. It was out of the water way and doesn't make any more of an eye sore than the webbing used on a dead man or other anchor. If I remember right it was a hanger and rapid.

[Jaxx]

I recall seeing a TR on here last year that the ancient bolt above the downclimb down the chute had been removed, but don't recall from who. Pretty easy down climb, especially using a partner assist. As Scott said, there never were bolts at either of the two rappels.

No need for name calling. There was much praise for it if I recall correctly and I don't remember seeing any other complaints on this in the past. Seems like most accepted it as the best thing and never saw any issue with it. That being said, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

...why do I sense another bolt war coming on... [emoji50]


Bogley is a very very small fraction of the canyoneering community.

[Jaxx]

Great to hear that the atrocious bolts have been removed from da canyon. That old bolt was timebomb waiting to talus-food an unwary traveler.

Tom :moses:

I will replace it with a solid bolt next time I'm there. That is what you are saying right?

[Brian in SLC]

I have been canyoneering for 20 years, Iceaxe...and prior to 2005 I ran into lots of bolts...installed by the vaulted "grey beards".

Ditto that. My first technical canyon was in Zion in around 1987. Next was Heaps in 1996.

This "anti bolt" thing is from the more recent folks...say...the ones who started in the late 90's or early 2000's. Noooooobs! Ha ha.

Certainly if I had a slide scanner, I could post plenty of photo's of the madboltchapper installing bolts in canyons, before he got all "holier-than-thou". Har har.

Heck, even the folks who originally got stuck in Sandthrax bolted their way out of it...f'n noobs! What do you expect from a guy who got a route named after him at Stone Mountain in North Carolina, "Yankee Go Home"...

http://www.mountainproject.com/v/bombay-groove-aka-yankee-go-home/107666720

(Kinda funny...was in IME in Salt Lake, and, some kid from North Carolina was in the shop chattin' with Scott and Andy (I dimly recall), anyhoo, I spy Chris walking across the parking lot and ask the kid if he's ever heard of the route, "Yankee Go Home". "Oh hewl ya" he says. "Well, there's the Yankee right there." Awesome timing!)

Plenty of "gray beards" out there who installed bolts in canyons. I mean, the "real" gray beards. Allen Steck. Les Wilson. Dennis, Mike, Royce.

Wonder who installed the bolt anchors that lead to Cathedral in the Desert? Man, those things look ancient.

Anyhoo...that some areas are "bolt free" is ok by me, as, the kids gotta have some challanges, and, it might as well be making a safe sport like rappelling more dangerous...(ha ha).

Actually, as skill levels and clean canyoning techniques get more developed and better known, then, not placing bolts on routes routinely done without them makes some sense. Sometimes, as traffic increases, bolts make sense over buried stacks of rocks with long slings...

Anyhoo...its a mixed bag out there!

Fun stuff. Stay safe whatever the heck you decide to rappel from...

[Jaxx]

No need for name calling.

This is Bogley. I thought I was posting correctly. Calling people names and belittling them without knowing their motives or experience.

It was too far and it was kind of meant in jest. I was going to write "who removed it and why" but that is to tame for Bogley. Does seem like I got the general feeling of the forum though since I also got called dumbass :haha:

[Iceaxe]

Heck, even the folks who originally got stuck in Sandthrax bolted their way out of it...f'n noobs!

Yes sir.... and to be fair you should also know every bolt I have ever placed has since been removed.



Ditto that. My first technical canyon was in Zion in around 1987. Next was Heaps in 1996.

This "anti bolt" thing is from the more recent folks...say...the ones who started in the late 90's or early 2000's. Noooooobs! Ha ha.

Not exactly true.... while Turville and friends were busy bolting their way to happiness groups like Steve Allen and friends were shunning bolts, that is kinda the reason you now have bolted area's (Zion) and non-bolted areas (Roost) as each group was exploring different areas. And it's also the reason for the first major bolt war in Neon where bolts were being placed and chopped almost weekly,

[Iceaxe]

"Please don't vandalize canyons that lie above your skill level. You may want to experience them in their undamaged state someday. They will always be there and you have plenty of time. It's not about ego or risk, it's about humility and respect." -Stevee B.

[Ryan Marsters]

I don't recall a need for those bolts in Alcatraz. We had a few first time sorts in our group and they did fine with a bit of backseat canyoncoaching. Only two raps.

I'm not a big fan of bolts, but on something like the last rap in the Mindbenders with no deadman options near, I don't mind it. Better than dozens of feet of old webbing washing into the creek and ugly rope grooves over the lip from the masses. If I recall correctly, there might be an eroded small chock wedged somewhere back there too.

Edit - Shane's disclaimer above takes care of the issue, but it isn't terribly practical since groups are unlikely to listen to it for the popular canyons. Yelling at a wall sort of deal.

[Brian in SLC]

"Please don't vandalize canyons that lie above your skill level. You may want to experience them in their undamaged state someday. They will always be there and you have plenty of time. It's not about ego or risk, it's about humility and respect." -Stevee B.

I dimly remember when the quotee above had a tech tip on his Cerberus website about how to properly drill and place a bolt in sandstone. He's another who's in big trouble if I get a slide scanner...ha ha. Not really. Sort of.

Anyhoo...

Strange how all this canyon history was never really available certainly at the time canyons were being descended. The DT crew was super secretive, SA was vague at best ("miscellaneous perils" indeed).

Got to see those chopped bolt anchors in Neon over Memorial Day. Heavy sigh. Seems silly to me, still. Who stole my baby angle piton? Ha ha. Canyon still seemed the same as it did 18 years ago. Crazy how time flies when your havin' fun.

[Sandstone Addiction]

Seems that I've evolved like many on here.

My first canyon or two, I couldn't for the life of me figure why there weren't at least 2 bomber bolts at every drop or downclimb in a canyon. I thought it was ridiculous to choose a pile of rocks or a deadman over a b/h.

But, over the last few years, I've changed my way of thinking and am indeed thankful there are still places that are challenging and involve problem solving.

With that said, I would hope that people would respect the non bolted areas and leave them the way they are.

Stevee B. nailed it.

[Bo_Beck]

Pretty certain a friend of mine had a great time with tons of problem solving here, although the bolts may have been a distraction and bummer?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTzVTmEoERI

[Scott P]

Sometimes, as traffic increases, bolts make sense over buried stacks of rocks with long slings...

This can be true if rope grooves are a problem. It seems with traffic some canyons are getting these days, rope grooves are a bigger problem than bolts. I guess I've "evolved" somewhat towards the other way now in certain circumstances. If rope grooves are a problem with natural anchors in some places, perhaps a rock colored bolt may be a good idea. Too bad more weren't sold that were rock colored instead of shiny metal. Perhaps they can be painted before hand to match the color of the rock?

This is kind of a moot point in Alcatraz though. The first rappel is usually done off a car bumper. There is only one other rappel in the canyon and it is fairly easy to anchor naturally.

Everything else is downclimbable for moderately experienced canyoneers. There is no reason to leave bolts, long slings, or piles of rocks in this canyon. Unless mother nature makes some serious change to the canyon, it only takes one sling above the pothole. There are no other places in the canyon where anything else would be needed for a moderately experienced canyoneer.

The canyon has full beta now, so everyone should know what to expect. Doing things without beta is much scarier and thus much more gear is typically taken. I did help mar Alcatraz at one time and still do feel bad about it.

[Slot Machine]

All of you guys should lay off Jaxx. I feel bad for him.

Close your eyes and imagine an existence where you aren't clever, like Jaxx. Days are filled with unsolvable problems and unoriginal thoughts. When you see people do things differently than you would, your initial reaction is, "You're a dumbass."

This must to be a hard way to live. We should all cut him some slack.

Just imagine Jaxx trying to open safety-sealed food containers. Then imagine him trying to maintain a job. Then imagine him trying to pay his taxes... :eek2:

THEN, imagine Jaxx at the 15 foot downclimb, that used to be bolted. Now don't YOU feel bad for him, my fellow Bogleyites?? :nono:

Let me paint the picture of our harrowing experience, so you are familiar with the hardship that Jaxx faced:

After Mark B and I removed that bolt, then patched the hole, we became somewhat concerned about the difficulty of the downclimb. The bolt must have been placed there for a good reason, right?

Mark, being an expert downclimber, decided to attempt it, on belay.

Once Mark safely arrived at the bottom, he laughed at how simple it was. He then assisted us both down the drop. On the downclimb difficulty meter we gave it a 2 out of 10.

(Also, there is a chockestone in the floor of the canyon, about 15 feet back from the drop, if you really NEED an anchor.)

So, if anyone out there still feels the overwhelming urge to rebolt that drop, or you have an extreme fear of 15 foot downclimbs, I still have that bolt and would be happy to mail it to you.

Bob

[Brian in SLC]

Pretty certain a friend of mine had a great time with tons of problem solving here, although the bolts may have been a distraction and bummer?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTzVTmEoERI

Fixed rope dab at minute 12, etc. Ha ha.

Whew. Not to be compared with AH's solo of Moonlight, but, still pretty proud free solo. First free solo of NE Buttress?

[Brian in SLC]

So, if anyone out there still feels the overwhelming urge to rebolt that drop, or you have an extreme fear of 15 foot downclimbs, I still have that bolt and would be happy to mail it to you.

What was it? Type of bolt, type of hanger? Post some pics. I'd be curious, from a corrosion-over-time standpoint.

[Slot Machine]

What was it? Type of bolt, type of hanger? Post some pics. I'd be curious, from a corrosion-over-time standpoint.

Here is the report:

http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?70544-Alcatraz

The bolt from the final drop is on the left:

74505

[Jaxx]

All of you guys should lay off Jaxx. I feel bad for him.

Hey thanks....wait a minute


Close your eyes and imagine an existence where you aren't clever, like Jaxx. Days are filled with unsolvable problems and unoriginal thoughts. When you see people do things differently than you would, your initial reaction is, "You're a dumbass."

This must to be a hard way to live. We should all cut him some slack.

Just imagine Jaxx trying to open safety-sealed food containers. Then imagine him trying to maintain a job. Then imagine him trying to pay his taxes... :eek2:

THEN, imagine Jaxx at the 15 foot downclimb, that used to be bolted. Now don't YOU feel bad for him, my fellow Bogleyites?? :nono:

Let me paint the picture of our harrowing experience, so you are familiar with the hardship that Jaxx faced:

After Mark B and I removed that bolt, then patched the hole, we became somewhat concerned about the difficulty of the downclimb. The bolt must have been placed there for a good reason, right?

Mark, being an expert downclimber, decided to attempt it, on belay.

Once Mark safely arrived at the bottom, he laughed at how simple it was. He then assisted us both down the drop. On the downclimb difficulty meter we gave it a 2 out of 10.

There is the bogley I remember. :2thumbs:


(Also, there is a chockestone in the floor of the canyon, about 15 feet back from the drop, if you really NEED an anchor.)

Is that a better solution than a bolt that was already there? Some might say yes. I would say no. Different opinions I guess. Filling holes still looks like crap, especially in a couple of years. I have filled a hole or two, but don't let my reputation as a dumbass/kiddie canyoneer that is 100% pro bolt get out.

I'm not 100% sure of your reading level. Maybe you just didn't read my other responses, so I will summarize here for you:

Wasn't me in the canyon. Was a joke in a bogley style mean-spirited way. Sorry for calling you a dumbass, don't take yourself so seriously (especially on the internet/Bogley)

Enjoy your day oh wise one.

[Jaxx]

The bolt from the final drop is on the left:

The far left is just a hanger. If I remember right that is the hanger of the very last "rap" in question. The bolt to the right has a hanger so I don't think you mean that one, unless I'm wrong about what hangers were where. Dumb it down for me (also curious about wear and tear)

[Brian in SLC]

The bolt from the final drop is on the left:

Old Leeper hanger...nice relic. SMC rap ring too.

Bolts on the right are Powerbolts (sans blue sleeve spacer?). Look really long. Wow. Metolius hangers, stainless, would seem. Stainless bolts, or, zinc plated? Hard to tell. Look brand new, though.

[ratagonia]

I'm not a big fan of bolts, but on something like the last rap in the Mindbenders with no deadman options near, I don't mind it. Better than dozens of feet of old webbing washing into the creek and ugly rope grooves over the lip from the masses. If I recall correctly, there might be an eroded small chock wedged somewhere back there too.


Hmmm. Much is in the seeing. Four Mindbenders I have done, and all had copious deadman/cairn opportunities at every drop.

One trick I have used is to assume whatever canyon I am doing a "first descent" of, Steve Allen has already done, and not left much sign. To respect his FD, it is up to me to do the same.

Tom :moses:

[ratagonia]

Old Leeper hanger...nice relic. SMC rap ring too.

Bolts on the right are Powerbolts (sans blue sleeve spacer?). Look really long. Wow. Metolius hangers, stainless, would seem. Stainless bolts, or, zinc plated? Hard to tell. Look brand new, though.

Powers Powerbolts don't use full-thread bolts like the ones in the picture. So, LIKE Powerbolts, but NOT Powerbolts....

Tom

[ratagonia]

Using Bolts does not lead to a lack of rope grooves. Just as making "natural" anchors does not lead to miles of webbing and rope grooves.

Both Bolters and Naturalers can be good or bad at establishing anchors. Seen plenty both ways.

Example: http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/0811mind/index2.htm

And some discussion from a couple years back: http://canyoncollective.com/threads/not-mindbender-final-anchor-warning.13567/

Tom

[Scott P]

Using Bolts does not lead to a lack of rope grooves. Just as making "natural" anchors does not lead to miles of webbing and rope grooves.

I agree. I only meant I'd be in favor of using a bolt if (as said "in certain circumstances") it could eliminate rope grooves in a trade canyon. There are a few places that this may be the case.

You are right that there are plenty of bad rope grooves from bolted anchors. Some of the worse examples I can think of are Spry Canyon, Elephant Butte, and the Three Penguins (though the latter has few options for any natural anchor).

In my eyes, slings are almost always preferable to bolts because they are less permanent and can be removed easily. Bolts are harder to remove.

Rope grooves can't be removed either, so the only place I'd be in favor of a new bolt would be if it could eliminate rope grooves in a popular canyon.

[ratagonia]

Rope grooves can't be removed either, so the only place I'd be in favor of a new bolt would be if it could eliminate rope grooves in a popular canyon.

Which is kinda what we do in Zion.

"We" in this case, meaning me.

Tom

[Brian in SLC]

Powers Powerbolts don't use full-thread bolts like the ones in the picture. So, LIKE Powerbolts, but NOT Powerbolts....

Ahhh...yeah. Didn't see the full threads. Ramset/redhead or some such.

[Sombeech]

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view5/2837510/michael-jackson-eating-popcorn-o.gif

[Slot Machine]

Is that a better solution than a bolt that was already there? Some might say yes. I would say no. Different opinions I guess. Filling holes still looks like crap, especially in a couple of years. I have filled a hole or two, but don't let my reputation as a dumbass/kiddie canyoneer that is 100% pro bolt get out.

"Better" is a subjective term. More importantly, the canyon ethic in Robber's Roost overrides what you deem to be "better". The real question is, do you feel as if your 'varied opinion' trumps the local ethic?

After doing the more challenging canyons in Robbers Roost, I would look anyone squarely in the eye and say, "If you feel compelled to bolt in The Roost then you are a lazy, unimaginative, unskilled canyoneer."

"Looks like crap" is also subjective. If we did a poor job patching, I encourage you to prove it.

Lastly, if you aren't bitching on your own behalf, then who are you bitching for?? Did your grandmother get her walker jammed in that chimney?

:haha::lol8::haha::lol8::haha:

^Mix one of these in^ when you are making a joke. Then people *might* think you are trying to be funny.