Upcoming Zion Trip - Please critique!

[skunkteeth]

Hello folks,

Girlfriend and I (possible 2 more people) will be going to Zion for the first time from May 24 to May 30. We only have experience with San Gabriel canyons. We are very excited to go through some canyons in Zion!

We will be arriving at Watchman campground Saturday morning - here is our current itinerary:

Saturday - Angles Landing Hike
Sunday - Fat Man's Misery (may need wetsuit, likely not?)
Monday - Narrows Top Down, may do bottom up depending on water temp (do people do in wetsuit, or dry pants only? Will likely be cold in wetsuit in and out of water all day. Current water temp 52

[deagol]

I might switch Angel's Landing to Thursday since it is crowded anyway and a weekend might be worse. Switch it to Thursday and drive home after (get an early start). As for Saturday, maybe do Hidden canyon instead?

YMMV

[TommyBoy]

I would consider throwing in Spry as well, maybe switch fat mans out for it. I've done both and they are both good canyons, but bang for buck I think that Spry is better.

[reflection]

Going to Zion for the "First Time"? I agree with the other writer, I would not do Angels landing on a Saturday. As to Fat Man's; the temps on the exit may be too high? Frankly, I would NOT get near Fat Mans (down and back) if the day temps are in the mid or high 90's. I'd probably replace Echo (technical) for Fat Mans, at least that would be an option. Doing Narrows top down, very long day; you would want to start early. Neoprene socks plus maybe a shell/neo top. Mystery, Keyhole, Pine Creek? Nice. If you wish to get in the Narrows, another very nice option is to go down Birch Hollow (technical), then down Orderville (semi-technical) and then out the Narrows. (you would need a permit for Orderville). Lower Orderville is stunning. Wetsuits, probably only for Echo, Keyhole and Pine Creek. Other options are Spry Canyon or Echo Cyn, which would be nice in the heat. Monday could be Birch/Orderville/Narrows (or do that on Sunday & Angel L on Monday?) Thursday you could go "quickly up short cyns on the E side. Or you could skip the combo Keyhole on Wed and do Keyhole your last day? You'll get it figured out. And if the temps are warm you will enjoy Orderville & Echo (water), Keyhole and Pine Creek. And maybe I'll whisper it again, Fat Mans is basically a spring and Fall trip - 3.5 hrs "out of there" in big heat - crazy, dangerous. Good luck.

[Iceaxe]

I would consider throwing in Spry as well, maybe switch fat mans out for it. I've done both and they are both good canyons, but bang for buck I think that Spry is better.

I'd give Fat Man's a much higher rating than Spry. There is nothing special about Spry, its just a hike with ropes. There is nothing else in the world like where Fat Man's meets Parunaweap.

[Iceaxe]

Yo Skunkteeth... do you already have your permits? If not the schedule you posted is probably worthless. I've never used a wetsuit in either Misery or the Narrows, and I've done both numerous times in all seasons. Lots of hiking with both and packing a wetsuit makes thing worse.

I would swap out Narrows top down and replace it with Orderville top down as I think it's a better one day route and it is not as long. Misery and Narrows back-to-back are going to be brutal unless you guys are very well conditioned.

I would suggest just doing the standard entrance to Orderville and skip the Birch Hollow entrance. Being new to Zion you are going to be slow and adding in Birch I bet you end up hiking out in the dark.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpPNnLifc7o

[Walden]

I'd give Fat Man's a much higher rating than Spry. There is nothing special about Spry, its just a hike with ropes. There is nothing else in the world like where Fat Man's meets Parunaweap.

X2

[hank moon]

Suggest: do not make Fat Man's your first Zion canyon. The approach and deproach are long hikes with lots of route finding in complex slickrock terrain. The deproach can be brutally hot. Count on a 12 hour day, unless you're magically lucky or have someone with you who truly knows the route. Better to get a few of the other area canyons done before tackling Fat Man's. Many parties have gotten lost/dehydrated/cliffed out and stranded on that hike.

If your permits aren't set in stone, consider:

Saturday - Angel's Landing
Sunday - Pine Creek and Keyhole
Monday - Narrows
Tuesday - Mystery
Wednesday - Fat Man's or alternative
Thursday - Canyon Overlook hike

Alternative to Fat Man's: A good non-permitted canyon to consider is Water Canyon. If doing this one, either get an early start (start the approach hike from the Hildale reservoir parking lot no later than 8am), or a late morning (11am) start to minimize encounters with guided groups. This one is very popular with the local guide services. Bring a headlamp if doing the later start.

Have fun and enjoy Zion!

[skunkteeth]

I might switch Angel's Landing to Thursday since it is crowded anyway and a weekend might be worse. Switch it to Thursday and drive home after (get an early start). As for Saturday, maybe do Hidden canyon instead?


YMMV
Thanks that is smart advice. Are you referring to the Hidden Canyon hike or technical section?



I would consider throwing in Spry as well, maybe switch fat mans out for it. I've done both and they are both good canyons, but bang for buck I think that Spry is better.
Will look into it, I can still get permits. Looks like the approach is much shorter.



Going to Zion for the "First Time"? I agree with the other writer, I would not do Angels landing on a Saturday. As to Fat Man's; the temps on the exit may be too high? Frankly, I would NOT get near Fat Mans (down and back) if the day temps are in the mid or high 90's. I'd probably replace Echo (technical) for Fat Mans, at least that would be an option. Doing Narrows top down, very long day; you would want to start early. Neoprene socks plus maybe a shell/neo top. Mystery, Keyhole, Pine Creek? Nice. If you wish to get in the Narrows, another very nice option is to go down Birch Hollow (technical), then down Orderville (semi-technical) and then out the Narrows. (you would need a permit for Orderville). Lower Orderville is stunning. Wetsuits, probably only for Echo, Keyhole and Pine Creek. Other options are Spry Canyon or Echo Cyn, which would be nice in the heat. Monday could be Birch/Orderville/Narrows (or do that on Sunday & Angel L on Monday?) Thursday you could go "quickly up short cyns on the E side. Or you could skip the combo Keyhole on Wed and do Keyhole your last day? You'll get it figured out. And if the temps are warm you will enjoy Orderville & Echo (water), Keyhole and Pine Creek. And maybe I'll whisper it again, Fat Mans is basically a spring and Fall trip - 3.5 hrs "out of there" in big heat - crazy, dangerous. Good luck.
Will defineately watch temps for Fat Man. Echo currently not available with permits. Anyone know how chances of getting one with 7 day drawing or the day before?


Orderville looks cool also, so that is a good opton. We are still debating whether to do the narrows bottom up. Can anyone compare how it compares to something similar to Half Dome (14 miles round trip with ~5000 ft of elevation gain)? I know the distance is longer without elevation, but it is mainly slow going in a river/on rocks.


We are concerned about the heat with Fat Man, will watch the weather and plan around it. Hoping for a nice day.



Yo Skunkteeth... do you already have your permits? If not the schedule you posted is probably worthless. I've never used a wetsuit in either Misery or the Narrows, and I've done both numerous times in all seasons. Lots of hiking with both and packing a wetsuit makes thing worse.


I would swap out Narrows top down and replace it with Orderville top down as I think it's a better one day route and it is not as long. Misery and Narrows back-to-back are going to be brutal unless you guys are very well conditioned.


I would suggest just doing the standard entrance to Orderville and skip the Birch Hollow entrance. Being new to Zion you are going to be slow and adding in Birch I bet you end up hiking out in the dark.





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpPNnLifc7o


Yup we have all the permits needed for the above iteneray. Thanks for advice on wetsuits, will leave them behind for Narrows and Misery. We will look into Orderville for the narrows approach.




Thanks everyone for the advice.

[Iceaxe]

We will look into Orderville for the narrows approach.

Orderville requires a different permit than The Narrows. But it's one of the easier permits to pick up. The 7 day lottery is a crap shoot, sometimes it works and sometimes not.

[Iceaxe]

The approach and deproach

deproach = egress

[deagol]

Thanks that is smart advice. Are you referring to the Hidden Canyon hike or technical section?

....

I was thinking the non-technical hike since it was your last day and the same day as the drive out.

I was just thinking Angel's Landing on a Saturday could be very crowded, but perhaps everyone goes early, so going early won't save you from the crowds (I know that is true when doing 14er ascents in Colorado. A few times I have left much later in the day, after thunder storms have moved through and I see almost no one on the trail- sounds like Angel's Landing could be a similar scenario).
Hank's advice about doing Angel's Landing in the early evening sounds very reasonable also. He knows Zion much better than I do, so I would default to his advice.

[skunkteeth]

Suggest: do not make Fat Man's your first Zion canyon. The approach and deproach are long hikes with lots of route finding in complex slickrock terrain. The deproach can be brutally hot. Count on a 12 hour day, unless you're magically lucky or have someone with you who truly knows the route. Better to get a few of the other area canyons done before tackling Fat Man's. Many parties have gotten lost/dehydrated/cliffed out and stranded on that hike.

If your permits aren't set in stone, consider:

Saturday - Angel's Landing
Sunday - Pine Creek and Keyhole
Monday - Narrows
Tuesday - Mystery
Wednesday - Fat Man's or alternative
Thursday - Canyon Overlook hike

Angel's Landing: if you start the hike about 3 hours before sundown and bring a good headlamp for each person, you should have a good experience. The hordes mostly get an early start, making the late day aspirants a thin crowd. I have often done it and seen no-one near the top at that time of day (any day of the week). Make sure you get off the technical (chains) part of the hike before dark. That way, you are on easy paved trail all the way back down. Much more life out after sundown, too.

Alternative to Fat Man's: A good non-permitted canyon to consider is Water Canyon. If doing this one, either get an early start (start the approach hike from the Hildale reservoir parking lot no later than 8am), or a late morning (11am) start to minimize encounters with guided groups. This one is very popular with the local guide services. Bring a headlamp if doing the later start.

Have fun and enjoy Zion!

So along with the heat of Fat Man, the route finding also makes it difficult? I will try to detail my route planning a little more ( http://caltopo.com/map?id=1708 ) in case we end up doing it. Will try and rearrange our schedule to not do it first. Keyhole is available but Pine creek is not on Sunday. Spry is also available. Will look into Water Canyon.

Angels landing should be nice near sunset. Will plan on doing that.

Thanks!

[hank moon]

So along with the heat of Fat Man, the route finding also makes it difficult?

Yes, and the greater share of the route-finding difficulty is on the DEproach of FMM. Doing Spry first might help a little, though FMM is much more difficult in terms of route finding. Doing the Subway (top-down) could be a decent warm-up. Unfortunately there aren't many "easy" hikes in the Zion area to prep for FMM. Take topo maps, GPS, headlamps, and above all, good heads.

[Iceaxe]

So along with the heat of Fat Man, the route finding also makes it difficult?

Depends....

Route finding is very simple if you have good beta, a GPS and know how to use both of them.

Using a map and compass is not so easy because it can be difficult to find the correct exit on the egress as all the option look pretty much the same on the return hike.

[kenrick]

Also keep in mind Orderville, Narrows Top down, or Birch Hollow/Orderville... You're going to need shuttle drop or figure out carpooling. If you use two cars, at the end of the day it's another time factor to drive out and pick up the drop off car. Orderville/Birch is probably up to an hour each way, even further for narrows top/down. If you have 12 hour day hikes planned plus add a couple hours for transporation or car pickups, you're looking at very long days even if you make great time!

[skunkteeth]

Yup thanks for the reminder. We will be using ZAC shuttle for narrows top down and for Keyhole and Pine creek we were planning on placing our car at the Pine creek exit and hitching to top of Keyhole with a "2 trailhead" sign. Then between keyhole exit and pine we will hitch or at worst walk it the 3 miles.

[ratagonia]

So along with the heat of Fat Man, the route finding also makes it difficult? I will try to detail my route planning a little more ( http://caltopo.com/map?id=1708 ) in case we end up doing it. Will try and rearrange our schedule to not do it first. Keyhole is available but Pine creek is not on Sunday. Spry is also available. Will look into Water Canyon.

Angels landing should be nice near sunset. Will plan on doing that.

Thanks!

Some of the quota for each canyon is held back for the last-minute crowd, so just because you cannot make a reservation does not mean you cannot get a permit.

Fatman's is a great canyon if it is not hot. But it is a real 12 hour day, usually. Some people have trouble with the hike out because they expect it to be marked or cairned continuously, which it is not. There are about 12 different paths out, braided, and cairned here and there... so it requires some backcountry savvy. But really, how you get out is, after the first section that goes steeply UP, is to go UP. The approach required reading a map to make sure you end up in the right drainage. The wrong drainage is a very bad place to be, at its end.

Spry, on the other hand, is a great canyon even when it is hot out. You will want an early start if it is hot. It is more like a 6-8 hour canyon. I often take first-time-Zioneers (already canyoneers) through Spry.

Tom

[Deathcricket]

[QUOTE=skunkteeth;557260]Hello folks,

Girlfriend and I (possible 2 more people) will be going to Zion for the first time from May 24 to May 30. We only have experience with San Gabriel canyons. We are very excited to go through some canyons in Zion!

We will be arriving at Watchman campground Saturday morning - here is our current itinerary:

Saturday - Angles Landing Hike
Sunday - Fat Man's Misery (may need wetsuit, likely not?)
Monday - Narrows Top Down, may do bottom up depending on water temp (do people do in wetsuit, or dry pants only? Will likely be cold in wetsuit in and out of water all day. Current water temp 52

[spinesnaper]

Love these lists.

Subway is missing. Was that intentional? During your stay in Zion, you can check back with the wilderness desk for a permit if that is an issue.

Fat Man's, I agree with others-great canyon. However, the hike out is the misery. It is a 2000 foot elevation gain at the end of the day. Not a deal breaker but ambient temperature is the key here. Stay hydrated for this hike or suffer the consequences. What am I saying? I raced bicycles in the Sacramento Valley as a teen in summer temps to 108 and never refilled my puny 1 pint water bottle (no one told me I should). I'd come home having lost 5 lb of water-young and dumb but man it was fun. Knock yourselves out!

Ken

[skunkteeth]

Love these lists.

Subway is missing. Was that intentional? During your stay in Zion, you can check back with the wilderness desk for a permit if that is an issue.

Fat Man's, I agree with others-great canyon. However, the hike out is the misery. It is a 2000 foot elevation gain at the end of the day. Not a deal breaker but ambient temperature is the key here. Stay hydrated for this hike or suffer the consequences. What am I saying? I raced bicycles in the Sacramento Valley as a teen in summer temps to 108 and never refilled my puny 1 pint water bottle (no one told me I should). I'd come home having lost 5 lb of water-young and dumb but man it was fun. Knock yourselves out!

Ken
We actually got permits for subway and mystery on the same day. We figured mystery was harder to get so we would do that. Maybe we will try to get subway + das boot instead of Fatman, but we are worried about holiday weekend crowds in the subway.

[Iceaxe]

but we are worried about holiday weekend crowds in the subway.

Weekends and holidays makes no difference to the Subway crowd during prime season as all the permits are usually allotted.

And for the record I've never felt crowded in the Subway.



Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[Brian in SLC]

Fun trip!

I wouldn't schedule a long day after the narrows. Maybe you're in super great shape, but, its a haul. A lazy Keyhole/Pine Creek would work if you're not too hammerred.

Plan your days to get some needed rest!

[2065toyota]

Resting is what you do after vacations it seems like


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[flatiron]

I did a week long trip to Zion every Sept for about 6-7 yrs. And we never took off days. Couple things I learned.

1. I would mix in a shorter day (6 hrs or so) in middle and towards end of week. Spry and Pinecreek/Keyhole are great for that.
2. Try not to set up two 10-12 hrs days back to back. Also need to factor in drive time/shuttle as time wasted not resting in camp.
3. Fat Man's is a great canyon. Never understood people screaming how hard the hike out is. But then I/we love to hike in backcountry - FMM gives you a hike and good tech canyon. Yes there are route-finding issues but if you are experienced it should be no prob. If not then maybe reconsider or do later in week after getting feel for it. Beta I used was dead on.
4. Spry is also a very fun canyon - but 6-7 hrs. If relatively new to canyons it offers multiple types of raps - good fun easy shorter canyon. Behunin same way. Fun easy canyon 8 hrs. Neither tech difficult.
5. Hard to tell someone - you need to learn your own water tolerance. I'm skinny & get cold fast. I check with Backcountry desk on water conditions and then decide on wetsuit. Never used suit in FMM til last time. Desk said lots of standing water. Took it and was glad.
6. Subway: If you want great hike with little tech canyon this is it. If you want tech canyon skip and do next time. Well worth it but not every trip.
7. Do Mystery if you have the chance.
8. Do Engelstead if you have the chance. Both much more bang than Subway.
9. Enjoy and come back next year or fall for stuff you missed or want to repeat!

[Brian in SLC]

Resting is what you do after vacations it seems like

Sure...but...if it were me, I'd mix up the long and short days a bit more. The below agenda has three fairly long gigs in a row.

Saturday - Angles Landing Hike
Sunday - Fat Man's Misery
Monday - Narrows Top Down
Tuesday - Mystery Canyon
Wednesday - Keyhole and Pine Creek
Thursday - Maybe a short hike, drive out.

Hmmm. Arrive Saturday morning…

I’d reorder…

Maybe:

Saturday: Mystery. If it’s still morning, trail up should be fairly shady.
Sunday: Fat Man’s.
Monday: Keyhole/Pine Creek.
Tuesday: Narrows.
Wednesday: Angels Landing.
Thursday: Emerald Pools, etc.

If you got worked on Fat Man's, it might throw off the whole trip. Get beat up on that rig, then, have to hike the full Narrows the next day? That might not go well...

Anyhoo...fun to ponder.

[mzamp]

I haven't done Narrows top down, but I do not see anything else on that list that I would consider super physicaly demanding. FMM is a long day but, but I agree with flatiron on it not being that difficult. ymmv

Angel's landing: Isn't that just a side hike on route to doing Telephone or Behunin?

[skunkteeth]

Some of the quota for each canyon is held back for the last-minute crowd, so just because you cannot make a reservation does not mean you cannot get a permit.


Fatman's is a great canyon if it is not hot. But it is a real 12 hour day, usually. Some people have trouble with the hike out because they expect it to be marked or cairned continuously, which it is not. There are about 12 different paths out, braided, and cairned here and there... so it requires some backcountry savvy. But really, how you get out is, after the first section that goes steeply UP, is to go UP. The approach required reading a map to make sure you end up in the right drainage. The wrong drainage is a very bad place to be, at its end.

Spry, on the other hand, is a great canyon even when it is hot out. You will want an early start if it is hot. It is more like a 6-8 hour canyon. I often take first-time-Zioneers (already canyoneers) through Spry.

Tom
Thanks Tom, will consider Spry and will plan on a very early start with Fatman. No following trails/cairns. Will stick with GPS and a north bearing.


Resting is what you do after vacations it seems like


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Haha you got it!


I did a week long trip to Zion every Sept for about 6-7 yrs. And we never took off days. Couple things I learned.

1. I would mix in a shorter day (6 hrs or so) in middle and towards end of week. Spry and Pinecreek/Keyhole are great for that.
2. Try not to set up two 10-12 hrs days back to back. Also need to factor in drive time/shuttle as time wasted not resting in camp.
3. Fat Man's is a great canyon. Never understood people screaming how hard the hike out is. But then I/we love to hike in backcountry - FMM gives you a hike and good tech canyon. Yes there are route-finding issues but if you are experienced it should be no prob. If not then maybe reconsider or do later in week after getting feel for it. Beta I used was dead on.
4. Spry is also a very fun canyon - but 6-7 hrs. If relatively new to canyons it offers multiple types of raps - good fun easy shorter canyon. Behunin same way. Fun easy canyon 8 hrs. Neither tech difficult.
5. Hard to tell someone - you need to learn your own water tolerance. I'm skinny & get cold fast. I check with Backcountry desk on water conditions and then decide on wetsuit. Never used suit in FMM til last time. Desk said lots of standing water. Took it and was glad.
6. Subway: If you want great hike with little tech canyon this is it. If you want tech canyon skip and do next time. Well worth it but not every trip.
7. Do Mystery if you have the chance.
8. Do Engelstead if you have the chance. Both much more bang than Subway.
9. Enjoy and come back next year or fall for stuff you missed or want to repeat!

Will see if we can rearrage the long and short days, may be hard with permits.

I really should have posted a while ago, doh. Will definately come back to do those that we missed, we are luckily not too far from Zion.

[QUOTE=Brian in SLC;557373]Sure...but...if it were me, I'd mix up the long and short days a bit more. The below agenda has three fairly long gigs in a row.

Saturday: Mystery. If it

[Iceaxe]

With your current schedule one item you can do if folks are feeling tired is hire the shuttle for Mystery. Personally spending $30 for the shuttle is a no brainer to me as I can use the time saved to do something else, even if the something else is just lounging by the pool drinking margarita's.

[2065toyota]

Since you don't live close and can't come here as often as you many people can, my vote would be to get as many possible canyons in as enjoyably possible. The Narrows is the only one that you have mentioned that is physically demanding, just because of the length of the day that it takes.

Saturday - Mystery
Sunday - Spry
Monday - Fat Mans
Tuesday - Keyhole - Pine Creek
Wednesday - Behunin
Thursday - Birch - up wild wind if its been a long week, down orderville to finish it off