Granary Canyon, Uturn and... where did the granary go?! Bonus stone knot failure.

[dentedvw]

I was just getting back from Florida, a work trip. Nice to be home! I was home for approximately ten hours, time to go!
Chuck the gear in the van, and we are out!
http://i.imgur.com/oV1Kb52.jpg?1

First rap into Granary:
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From the top:
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Last rap out of Granary:
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The anchors were all in top shape, all looking shiny new. Bomber bolt hangers on last rap were confidence inspiring, but I thought it would have been nice to have seen chains on that one, due to their exposure.

Flower garden near where the granary was, I thought.
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And this is where the real mystery begins. What happened to the granary? We looked high and low, and it was gone. There was a few sorry piles of badly stacked rocks on a ledge, but on close inspection, it looked pretty ramshackle, like recent stacking.
I was here last year, but short on time and didn't get a good look at it, but I remember there being a structure, probably the granary. My wife was excited to see it, but felt pretty bummed that it was gone.
Was it wrecked by off roaders? Destroyed by a falling boulder? Did we just miss the actual location?

We did Uturn the night before, started pretty late in the day, finishing in the dark.
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In Uturn is where we experienced our first Stone Knot failure to release. You can see, it didn't fully untie when we pulled the "fiddlestick" out.
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After experimenting with it a few times, we believe the cause is a too small fiddlestick. I was feeling cheap last year, so I made my own, out of PEX tube, with a dowel glued in. It was great all last year, the PEX is real slippery and pulls easy, but first two raps on it this year and it got stuck. I was jumaring up it, in this condition (yikes) when luckily another group appeared behind us, and freed it up for us. Twice. :fitz: If that was anyone here, I owe you a wobbly pop.

We didn't use it again. We have used it at least two dozen times last year, no problems at all. We mocked it up, using a larger diameter piece of flotsam, and it released better. I think my PEX tube is too small, making the stone knot too small. The Imlay Fiddlestick is wider, leaving the Stone Knot more open when pulled, and less likely to get jammed up (fiddlestuck?) when pulled out and pulled on.

Solution for the remainder of the weekend was to not use it again, and just pull rope. Ugh. Ah well. Fun was still had, no worries. Glad to be here, and not Florida. :cool2:

[dentedvw]

If the photos don't show up, it's because I stole them from my wife's Facebook page. If that is the case, someone tell me, and I will put them on imgur, or somewhere.

[deagol]

We did Granary last October and missed the regular anchor for the last rap and spied one well to the north (about 300 feet?) on a sloping slickrock edge. We had to rap down off a tree to a steep slickrock slope that had a smoothly curved steep drainage that ended at a cliff. This is where the anchor was that we spied from the top. When we saw the anchor up-close, we were spooked, as it looked like two tent spikes driven into the rock connected by old webbing. My advice to anyone is to not go down that way.. FWIW

RE the stone knot not releasing: The Smooth Operator is even thicker than the Fiddlestick. I have never had a problem with it.. interesting to hear about a skinnier version of the Fiddlestick getting stuck, though. I wonder of all such devices can generically be called "Fiddlestick" or is that name reserved for the Imlay CG Fiddlestick only? If so, is there a generic term for these stone knot pin devices?

[mzamp]

misleading title - The stone knot didn't fail.

[Iceaxe]

Last rap out of Granary:
73695

The anchors were all in top shape, all looking shiny new. Bomber bolt hangers on last rap were confidence inspiring, but I thought it would have been nice to have seen chains on that one, due to their exposure.

The anchors in your picture are new since I last did Granary a couple years ago. You used to anchor at the tree on the rim and it was a 200' rappel. You can easily see the rope grooves in the background cause by the old anchors and rope pull.

[ratagonia]

In Uturn is where we experienced our first Stone Knot failure to release. You can see, it didn't fully untie when we pulled the "fiddlestick" out.

After experimenting with it a few times, we believe the cause is a too small fiddlestick. I was feeling cheap last year, so I made my own, out of PEX tube, with a dowel glued in. It was great all last year, the PEX is real slippery and pulls easy, but first two raps on it this year and it got stuck. I was jumaring up it, in this condition (yikes) when luckily another group appeared behind us, and freed it up for us. Twice. :fitz: If that was anyone here, I owe you a wobbly pop.

We didn't use it again. We have used it at least two dozen times last year, no problems at all. We mocked it up, using a larger diameter piece of flotsam, and it released better. I think my PEX tube is too small, making the stone knot too small. The Imlay Fiddlestick is wider, leaving the Stone Knot more open when pulled, and less likely to get jammed up (fiddlestuck?) when pulled out and pulled on.

Solution for the remainder of the weekend was to not use it again, and just pull rope. Ugh. Ah well. Fun was still had, no worries. Glad to be here, and not Florida. :cool2:

Current Fiddlestick is the same thickness as the Smooth Operator. I don't think it has to do with the girth of the unit.

Did you use an UPWARD Stone Knot? DOWNWARD STONES tend to get stuck just like that.

Jugged it? you crazy man!!@! I hope you gave it 2 or 3 persons total weight before you did so.

Tom

[ratagonia]

Last rap out of Granary:
73695

The anchors were all in top shape, all looking shiny new. Bomber bolt hangers on last rap were confidence inspiring, but I thought it would have been nice to have seen chains on that one, due to their exposure.



Due to what exposure??? (Meaning, what do you mean? There are several ways your statement could be interpreted.)

Chains seem to whack around if there is any flow over the anchor, and tear up the soft sandstone.

Unfortunate that Stone-Knot-Pin-Devices were not part of the vocabulary when those canyons were opened up, or those rope grooves could have been avoided.

Tom

[Iceaxe]

Unfortunate that Stone-Knot-Pin-Devices were not part of the vocabulary when those canyons were opened up, or those rope grooves could have been avoided.

Or someone could have just done a little better job of establishing the original anchors. It's not like there is a shortage of possibilities.


There is a big tree at the top that is obvious and simple, the first guys used it and everyone else followed suit. The original two-stage rappel should have been broken up into two sections long ago.


The first time I went through the canyon I thought about establishing better anchors and correcting the two-stage rappel.... but it was late, I was tired, there was beer in the truck at the bottom, yada, yada.....


It's nice to see someone has corrected the problem. Now if some good citizen will go over and fix the shitty lean-too anchors on Rock of Ages the Moab routes will be in great shape.

[hank moon]

Current Fiddlestick is the same thickness as the Smooth Operator. I don't think it has to do with the girth of the unit.

Did you use an UPWARD Stone Knot? Upwards tend to get stuck just like that.

Jugged it? you crazy man!!@! I hope you gave it 2 or 3 persons total weight before you did so.

Tom

You mean "Downward" Stone Knots tend to get stuck?

And X2 on " you crazy man!!@! "

i recently had a PEX fiddlestick get stuck, but in a different manner: the knot was simply too tight. I had line-of-sight on the stick and pulled with bouncing bodyweight to no avail.

Good question about the "Fiddlestick" nomenclature: item vs. technique, what to call it, etc. Already we have "Fiddlesticking" and "Going Smooth" as technique descriptors. I hope this nonsensical trend stops and reverses.

p.s. knots don't fail, people do :)

[moab mark]

I'm probably drunk but isnt that picture from the last rap at ROA? If not I'm confused about Granary? Are you still going off the tree and then is there a bolted anchor at the second drop? Haven't been in years but that picture doesn't look right?

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[moab mark]

All those pics look like ROA?

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[moab mark]

First rap pick is pool arch?

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[dentedvw]

True, it wasn't a failure of the knot, it was maybe a failure of the system? The knot, even it it's half there state held firm. Three of us yanking, and then me bouncing on prussiks didn't budge it. I aid climb too, so while it was spooky, it wasn't the spookiest thing I have done. Keep in mind, this was the first and second rap of Uturn, not the first of Granary, thankfully. I would have been somewhat less inclined to do that on Granary. Probably would have found a way to climb out somewhere else instead.

Last year, on the first test rap with the PEX stick (or what you like) I was using the hollow PEX, and it was folding into the stone knot. Not ideal! I scrounged up some sticks and jammed them in. It stayed that way all year, and this winter I glued in a dowel. I like how cheap it was, and how slippery, but I think I will be buying an Imlay fiddlestick soon all the same.

I have been tying an upwards stone, should I be tying it downwards for easier release?

[ratagonia]

You mean "Downward" Stone Knots tend to get stuck?



Big big OOPS. OK, I fixed it.

Tom

[dentedvw]

First rap pic is Pool Arch. Anchor is a Juniper, for better or worse.
Second pic of me standing at anchors is the last rap on what I thought was called Granary Canyon AKA Pool Arch Canyon, if what I was told is right.
Last handful of pics are from what I thought was named Uturn.
Again, I have only personal experience on them, I haven't consulted any books, if there are any. So, names may be wrong? Could be. Feel free to correct me, it's good to know. :)

[moab mark]

??? Are you sure you were in Granary? Tom I'll need to go look at your site but I thought you were recommending an upward stone? ????

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[Iceaxe]

I'm probably drunk but isnt that picture from the last rap at ROA?

You are correct. Guess I better look closer next time.



Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[ratagonia]

i recently had a PEX fiddlestick get stuck, but in a different manner: the knot was simply too tight. I had line-of-sight on the stick and pulled with bouncing bodyweight to no avail.

Good question about the "Fiddlestick" nomenclature: item vs. technique, what to call it, etc. Already we have "Fiddlesticking" and "Going Smooth" as technique descriptors I hope this nonsensical trend stops and reverses.



Since I originated the concept and the item now known as the FiddleStick, here are my thoughts:

- calling the technique and the item in general "FiddleStick" is just fine.

- making a product and selling it, and calling it a FiddleStick is not good.

- making a product and selling it, and calling it a "Tongue Stick" for Fiddlesticking anchors in canyon seem fine to me.

- so I'm good with someone calling their homemade FiddleStick a "homemade FiddleStick".

Tom

[ratagonia]

??? Are you sure you were in Granary? Tom I'll need to go look at your site but I thought you were recommending an upward stone? ????



Yes.

Upward Stone good. Downward Stone not good.

Afternoon sugar low, not so good either.

Tom

[moab mark]

The canyon you did is commonly known as Rock of Ages. Yes the last anchor spot SUCKS. Big exposure.

Tom?
From your site
There are several versions of the Stone Knot, but the one we recommend for the FiddleStick is the Upward Overhand Stone, which has the most consistent disintegration once the Stick is pulled. Learn more about tying and uses of the Stone knot

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[moab mark]

Sorry didn't see your earlier post my bad.

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[ratagonia]

Sorry didn't see your earlier post my bad.

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Rough and Tumble, man. Good to see you're on top of things!

Tom

[dentedvw]

Rock of Ages, gotcha.
Last rap wasn't too bad, it was nice that there was an anchor above to get to those, though it was looking pretty beat. Good enough for stepping down, super sketch if you don't know that's what you are supposed to do to go find the other anchors. But, once you are on the edge, you couldn't miss the bolt hangers.

What I meant earlier about exposure was sun/wind/blowing sand. But, maybe it's not always as windy as when we were there. I did hear of a wind advisory as we were pulling out of the area. I agree about the chains rubbing, good point. Better to travel with extra webbing and be prepared to replace as necessary. :)

[moab mark]

First rap pic is Pool Arch. Anchor is a Juniper, for better or worse.
Second pic of me standing at anchors is the last rap on what I thought was called Granary Canyon AKA Pool Arch Canyon, if what I was told is right.
Last handful of pics are from what I thought was named Uturn.
Again, I have only personal experience on them, I haven't consulted any books, if there are any. So, names may be wrong? Could be. Feel free to correct me, it's good to know. :)
By looking at your picture when walking out in the dark I think you did tierdrop? U turn is to the right of tierdrop.

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[moab mark]

If you want to do a bit of research go to climb Utah and look at the pics for each route. Shane has the beta there for most of the Moab stuff.

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[Byron]

Cool thread.

[hank moon]

Upward Stone good. Downward Stone not good.

The first trip I did where the FiddleStick was in use, a guy anchored a drop using a DownStone.

It jammed just like the one pictured above.

Fortunately, we were able to find a safe way back to the anchor, re-rig with an UpStone, which did not jam.

Yay.

[hikster11]

All those pics look like ROA?

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Agree

[canyondevil]

Everything you ever wanted to know about the UP vs DOWN and why it will occasionally not release in the DOWN can be found here:

http://bluugnome.com/cyn_how-to/gear/smooth-operator/smooth-operator_stoneknot.aspx

[deagol]

Luke's website has great info on this stuff...
I put it to test last October in a small short un-named (to my knowledge) canyon near Moab before using it all day in Granary. It worked flawlessly. On the last drop, we rigged to fixed anchor and descended at dusk.. kinda spooky. We did not see the Granary, but rapped down a different face, so no surprise there..

[harness man]

Smooth Operators / Fiddle Sticks scare the ----- out of me:shock2:, but recently Luke brought some Smooth Operators over to test on our pull-test machine.

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The results were VERY confidence inspiring:nod:- in all tests under extreme load the Smooth Operator would ultimately bend, but never break: the rope would fail first!
I may have to start using one in the canyons...Some one should get Luke to post: he has photos and Video...:popcorn:

[hank moon]

Smooth Operators / Fiddle Sticks scare the ----- out of me:shock2:, but recently Luke brought some Smooth Operators over to test on our pull-test machine.

The results were VERY confidence inspiring:nod:- in all tests under extreme load the Smooth Operator would ultimately bend, but never break: the rope would fail first!
I may have to start using one in the canyons...Some one should get Luke to post: he has photos and Video...:popcorn:

Good to hear.

Now there's just those other, more worrisome failure modes:

FiddleStuck (inability to recover the rope after everyone is down)
FiddleFly (the stick releases the Stone while someone is on rope)

SoJammed?
SmoothSailing?

Impeccable technique + decision-making is essential to mitigate risk whilst FiddleSticking

[deagol]

Smooth Operators / Fiddle Sticks scare the ----- out of me:shock2:, but recently Luke brought some Smooth Operators over to test on our pull-test machine.

The results were VERY confidence inspiring:nod:- in all tests under extreme load the Smooth Operator would ultimately bend, but never break: the rope would fail first!
I may have to start using one in the canyons...Some one should get Luke to post: he has photos and Video...:popcorn:

Thanks for posting this !!

Hank, has "Fiddlefly" ever happened? If so, do you know why?

I have used both the Fiddlestick and the Smooth Operator and now use only the Smooth Operator. I follow Luke's procedure in using 2 safety biners to prevent the stick from coming out for all but LAPAR. Also he suggests deploying the pull cord before LAPAR when the safety biners are still in place so a prior rappeler can situate the pull cord properly (and it is still locked into the anchor). The LAPAR then only needs to rappel, as the pull cord has been properly deployed prior to that. This doesn't guarantee lack of any other human error, but decreases the chances of something like "fiddlefly" as far as my experience goes.

[hank moon]

Thanks for posting this !!

Hank, has "Fiddlefly" ever happened? If so, do you know why?

I have used both the Fiddlestick and the Smooth Operator and now use only the Smooth Operator. I follow Luke's procedure in using 2 safety biners to prevent the stick from coming out for all but LAPAR. Also he suggests deploying the pull cord before LAPAR when the safety biners are still in place so a prior rappeler can situate the pull cord properly (and it is still locked into the anchor). The LAPAR then only needs to rappel, as the pull cord has been properly deployed prior to that. This doesn't guarantee lack of any other human error, but decreases the chances of something like "fiddlefly" as far as my experience goes.


FiddleFly hasn't happened, AFAIK. Hope it doesn't!

[deagol]

FiddleFly hasn't happened, AFAIK....
OK, good to hear


.... Hope it doesn't!

+1

[dougr]

Everything you ever wanted to know about the UP vs DOWN and why it will occasionally not release in the DOWN can be found here:

http://bluugnome.com/cyn_how-to/gear/smooth-operator/smooth-operator_stoneknot.aspx

Exactly what I was thinking, mistied stone. But maybe this (from the site)...

Good
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Bad
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[moabmatt]

Or someone could have just done a little better job of establishing the original anchors. It's not like there is a shortage of possibilities.


There is a big tree at the top that is obvious and simple, the first guys used it and everyone else followed suit. The original two-stage rappel should have been broken up into two sections long ago.


The first time I went through the canyon I thought about establishing better anchors and correcting the two-stage rappel.... but it was late, I was tired, there was beer in the truck at the bottom, yada, yada.....


It's nice to see someone has corrected the problem. Now if some good citizen will go over and fix the shitty lean-too anchors on Rock of Ages the Moab routes will be in great shape.

Regarding the last rap anchor in Granary...

The "first guys" still use it. It's worked fine for us since 1996, so we're not really sure what the "problem" is? Since you mentioned rope grooves I'm guessing you're referring to a hard retrieval? From day one we've rigged our webbing so the rapide hangs over the lip. Pulls like butter and no grooves. Sadly, few people nowadays seem to think or care enough to do this, as our webbing gets rerigged often. Inevitably their retrievals are unnecessarily difficult, grooves unnecessarily result and people then complain about the "problem." :facepalm1:

There really is no problem here. It's just like the hundreds or thousands of other sitting-start rappels out there on the Plateau. To makes things easier, all but the last person down get a "courtesy anchor" tied into the webbing so they do not have to go over the edge before loading the rope. Simply clip into the rope, sit down and scoot off the edge on your hip. There is a ledge about five feet down from the lip that helps this sitting-start technique, too. The last person down has it just as easy. After untying the courtesy anchor, clip in, sit down and slide over the edge. You can hold on to the webbing and get a foot jam in the crack to help ease down to that ledge five feet down, if necessary. Once on the ledge the webbing and rapide are now over the edge and out of the crack. The rope will pull easy and smooth.

Also, there is nothing on that big shelf halfway down that you could either rig to or bolt that will make this rappel easier (again, not that it's hard in the first place). Breaking it up into two stages, with bolts or otherwise, will do nothing beneficial for you, the rope or the pull. If anything it will complicate an otherwise straightforward rappel. The edge of that shelf is too rounded to make a second station down there easy. Just have the last guy down put that rapide over the lip at the top and rap all the way to the ground.

[flatiron]

Did GC few years ago and last rap was exactly like Matt describes. Webbing was long enough so rapide was over the lip. The ledge 5' down actually makes it very easy to set up. Just make sure your rope has not shrunk!!