Kolob Creek (Canyon)

[kenrick]

Planning our Zion trip for the start of July and was planning on doing Kolob Creek via the Narrows but dont want it to take up 2 days.

I have a couple questions, is how long has it taken some of you to do it? Do you recommend 2 days or bolting through it, where did you camp at? or do you prefer MIA exit...

My last question may be a little out there... Is is practical to setup the Rapel for into the Narrows to check it out shortly, and then climb out and go ahead and take the MIA exit... and... GO!

[Brian in SLC]

Planning our Zion trip for the start of July and was planning on doing Kolob Creek via the Narrows but dont want it to take up 2 days.

I have a couple questions, is how long has it taken some of you to do it? Do you recommend 2 days or bolting through it, where did you camp at? or do you prefer MIA exit...

My last question may be a little out there... Is is practical to setup the Rapel for into the Narrows to check it out shortly, and then climb out and go ahead and take the MIA exit... and... GO!

Huh?

[spinesnaper]

Planning our Zion trip for the start of July and was planning on doing Kolob Creek via the Narrows but dont want it to take up 2 days.

I have a couple questions, is how long has it taken some of you to do it? Do you recommend 2 days or bolting through it, where did you camp at? or do you prefer MIA exit...

My last question may be a little out there... Is is practical to setup the Rapel for into the Narrows to check it out shortly, and then climb out and go ahead and take the MIA exit... and... GO!


Others will answer you more definitely than I. I have not done Kolob. I have not done MIA. But I have done Boundary exiting the narrows in a day. We were dropped by shuttle at lava point. I think we were making our first rap into Boundary around 9 AM and reached Kolob Creek around 12:30 PM. We had a quick lunch and it was almost 1:45 PM before reaching the MIA. We continued down stream and had our second lunch when we reached the Narrows at about 5 PM. Traversing Kolob would probably be significantly slower than Boundary . That's a long winded way of saying that it is far and rugged to go from the the MIA to the Narrows and going back up you have a couple of significant but not impossible drops to reverse but you will be fighting current which might also add to the task of reversing course. I am going to guess that once you get to the Narrows, it would be easier to keep going down stream than to return up Kolob Creek and exit MIA.

I sure would not be excited to carry camping gear through Kolob canyon.

Ken

[Iceaxe]

You are so messed up in what you are asking I don't even know where to begin. You need to get a good map and beta, spend some time studying them and then come back and ask your questions.

MIA exit is 8 to 10 hours total for EXPERIENCED canyoneers.

Narrows exit is 12 to 15 hours total for EXPERIENCED canyoneers.

And when I say experienced I mean you have over 100 canyons under your belt, otherwise the required times can go up exponentially.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJuFSKTiBis

[spinesnaper]

Gotta love that Leon Russell.

[Iceaxe]

Gotta love that Leon Russell.

:2thumbs:

[kenrick]

Others will answer you more definitely than I. I have not done Kolob. I have not done MIA. But I have done Boundary exiting the narrows in a day. We were dropped by shuttle at lava point. I think we were making our first rap into Boundary around 9 AM and reached Kolob Creek around 12:30 PM. We had a quick lunch and it was almost 1:45 PM before reaching the MIA. We continued down stream and had our second lunch when we reached the Narrows at about 5 PM. Traversing Kolob would probably be significantly slower than Boundary . That's a long winded way of saying that it is far and rugged to go from the the MIA to the Narrows and going back up you have a couple of significant but not impossible drops to reverse but you will be fighting current which might also add to the task of reversing course. I am going to guess that once you get to the Narrows, it would be easier to keep going down stream than to return up Kolob Creek and exit MIA.

I sure would not be excited to carry camping gear through Kolob canyon.

Ken

I appreciate the info. I haven't taken a look at the topos yet but saw it was only a couple of small raps in between the narrows and MIA. Only reason I asked is if it was doable it makes it much less hassle dropping a car off at the park and picking it up while still being able to drop into the narrows above big springs which I haven't seen yet. Knew it was probably a long shot.

[kenrick]

You are so messed up in what you are asking I don't even know where to begin. You need to get a good map and beta, spend some time studying them and then come back and ask your questions.

MIA exit is 8 to 10 hours total for EXPERIENCED canyoneers.

Narrows exit is 12 to 15 hours total for EXPERIENCED canyoneers.

And when I say experienced I mean you have over 100 canyons under your belt, otherwise the required times can go up exponentially.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJuFSKTiBis


I expect we could do it in 16 hours...
I'm not experienced, just slightly crazy.
Only canyons I've down are subway top down, orderville, and summiting Hidden Canyon from the bottom (no easy or sane task). I'm familiar with the narrows up to big springs. I was just trying to find a possible way to see the narrows from kolob creek and not camp or river walk in the dark. I also plan on taking time and enjoying the canyon and not racing through it. CampOut it is! 🔥😬

That said dropping a car off at the park, calling the water district, and grabbing the permit I imagine will slow down an early start.

[Scott P]

I haven't taken a look at the topos yet but saw it was only a couple of small raps in between the narrows and MIA.

Unless things have changed, there is only one and it's long before the Narrows.


Only reason I asked is if it was doable it makes it much less hassle dropping a car off at the park and picking it up while still being able to drop into the narrows above big springs which I haven't seen yet. Knew it was probably a long shot.

MIA to Big Springs and back is actually a very long way. Also, the part of the river between Kolob Creek and Big Springs isn't narrow. It's the widest part of that canyon. The more impressive and narrow parts are either above Kolob Creek or below Big Springs.

[ratagonia]

Only canyons I've down are subway top down, orderville, and summiting Hidden Canyon from the bottom (no easy or sane task).




Yes, it looks like you are well-prepared to do do Kolob. After all, you HAVE rappelled before.




Isn't there an internet law out there, that Trolls and Compleat Idiots are impossible to tell apart? Maybe Gandalf's law?

:moses:

[kenrick]

Yes, it looks like you are well-prepared to do do Kolob. After all, you HAVE rappelled before.




Isn't there an internet law out there, that Trolls and Compleat Idiots are impossible to tell apart? Maybe Gandalf's law?

:moses:

Like I said, I'm not experienced... But even you have not summited hidden canyon. What canyons do you suggest are a good bridge for preparing for kolob? We have one where I live that is class c that we'll be practicing with getting ready for it.

[Eric Holden]

:popcorn:

[ratagonia]

Like I said, I'm not experienced... But even you have not summited hidden canyon. What canyons do you suggest are a good bridge for preparing for kolob? We have one where I live that is class c that we'll be practicing with getting ready for it.

How do you know what I have or have not done?

:duel:

For the record, I have not climbed up Hidden. I don't see the point. If I wanted to go climbing, I would go climbing. If I wanted to canyoneer, I would go DOWN a canyon. Climbing UP Hidden is irrelevant to this discussion, except perhaps to show a lack of understanding :stud: and a tendency towards chest-beating. :haha: That you had not looked at a map before asking questions tends to be a bad sign, too.

Here's a link you might find useful: http://bit.ly/R3GWAt

Kolob is an advanced canyon, though perhaps the easiest of the advanced canyons in Zion. It is not so much that it is "hard", as that any mishap in there can have very serious consequences. Getting a rope stuck, easy to do in a flowing-water canyon, could result in spending a night or two in there. Depending where, that could be quite uncomfortable.

Appropriate Preparation: maybe 30 canyons, demonstrating some proficiency. A Telephunin would be a good choice (Telephone and Behunin). You should also do something that involves being cold for a long period of time and still functioning. Not sure what to recommend there, as Boundary is mostly dry these days so it does not help much. Das Boot is on the right track, but neither technical enough nor long enough to provide good preparation.

I recommend doing Boundary first, which is dry or almost dry these days. People often struggle on the MIA the first time, and because Boundary is considerably shorter, this gives people more time and energy to deal with finding the MIA route. I like Boundary better as an overnight-out the Narrows start, because it is shorter, drier and requires less rope. The hike out Kolob to the Narrows is long enough in "normal" conditions, when there is little flow. If there is significant flow in Kolob, hiking downstream can be VERY slow.

But now that I have lapsed into actual advice, rather than snarky rejoinder...

Whatever you do, a reasonably early start is highly recommended. Which means the permit etc. is dealt with the day before. Best if you can camp up at Lava Point. "Reasonably Early" means hitting the trail at 8 am or so, maybe 7 am in high summer. There's a TR on here somewhere about a group that got an early start (10 am was it?), spent the night in there, got a rescue called on them... all easily avoided problems if one is wise enough to follow the advice of the elders... :moses:

The water district is only open during banking hours, so your call to them will need to be made on a weekday, middle of the day. You will want to call about a week in advance, and also the day before you head that way. You will also want to check the water level where Kolob runs under the KT Road - even if you are ONLY doing Boundary.

"Class C" covers a wide range of canyons. What canyon is in your hood that you are running laps in?

Not many people have been through Kolob yet this year, so you should expect to have to re-rig some, most or all of the anchors. 100 feet of webbing and 10 rapides?

Other than the wealth of advice and information elsewhere available... what else would you be interested in knowing?

Tom

[Brian in SLC]

I expect we could do it in 16 hours...
I'm not experienced, just slightly crazy.
Only canyons I've down are subway top down, orderville, and summiting Hidden Canyon from the bottom (no easy or sane task). I'm familiar with the narrows up to big springs. I was just trying to find a possible way to see the narrows from kolob creek and not camp or river walk in the dark. I also plan on taking time and enjoying the canyon and not racing through it. CampOut it is! 

That said dropping a car off at the park, calling the water district, and grabbing the permit I imagine will slow down an early start.

Also consider that you'll have to drive back up to Lava Point too. And, find the trailhead, which, if you've never been there before might be interesting. Given how late you'll probably end up starting...and...how "average" parties fair...you might well be coming out in the dark as it is, best-on-best. I've been lost in the dark on the MIA...that ain't no fun (eh, Tom? But, I'm sure it doesn't compare to climbing up Hidden Canyon...har har).

Its hard to know how to answer these solitations for advice...I mean, we have no idear how fast you move in this type of canyon terrain, what your level of fitness is, how saavy your canyoning skills are, and, how "durable" you are. Plus...you won't be alone, right? How's your team?

I think the walk out Kolob Creek is amazing. I've done it a couple of times, always as an over nighter. Camping gear, 'cause most folks don't know how to pack light, really can slow you down. Way slower for some.

Can't imagine walking all the way down to Big Spring, then, turning around and going all the way back up Kolob...at the end of a long day, no less. Nope, not for most.

That said, for Kolob as your first go in that canyon/area, with a hesitation to leave a car at the bottom, I'd say just do Kolob and hike out the MIA. Why complicate or add distance/time to a trip like this? Might be hard enough!

[spinesnaper]

Yes, it looks like you are well-prepared to do do Kolob. After all, you HAVE rappelled before.




:moses:

Tom

Fantastic, I never knew there was mark up language for sarcasm-great, just great.:lol8:

Ken

[deagol]

on that note:


Hi everyone,

I just saw 127 Hours and decided to get into Canyoneering 'cuz it looks totally sick. I thought about taking some friends through some canyon in Zion called Heaps since the permits seem easier to get than Subway. Any advice?

[harness man]

Edit of previous post-
I apologize for passing judgment on others when I am not qualified to do so and will strive to be a more positive
contributor on Bogley.
There- I feel better now!:nod:

[Iceaxe]

73471

[ratagonia]

Now will someone qualified PLEASE talk to the Imlay Sneak dudes about SRT, rope selection and management, double dry bagging critical gear, how you are SUPPOSED to have an Imlay veteran with you, and why you would never go in there with out a helmet (see the video), etc.


Did I miss an opportunity to display my rapier wit?

T

[harness man]

YES...no, actually you were pretty nice-
The trip report 4/26 on Imlay (sneak): dudes with TWO 200' ropes... and one without helmet.

[ratagonia]

YES...no, actually you were pretty nice-
The trip report 4/26 on Imlay (sneak): dudes with TWO 200' ropes... and one without helmet.

Must have been on off day... sorry! :moses:

[Bootboy]

Like I said, I'm not experienced... But even you have not summited hidden canyon. What canyons do you suggest are a good bridge for preparing for kolob? We have one where I live that is class c that we'll be practicing with getting ready for it.

I'm going to be completely candid and honest here. Just don't go. You seem pretty uninformed about the whole situation. Even if people here can answer all of your odd questions, there are things you need to learn on your own through experience and observation before you will be truly prepared for Kolob.

Technically, it's not particularly difficult, neither is it particularly physically difficult, but f***ing up in Kolob could mean big penalty points. You don't seem to have the right approach to this. These are special places that demand respect. They're not some sick "adventure" you just go do because you saw it on the internets. Planning, preparation, experience, and common sense are all requisite, you seem to lack at least 3 of the 4. Take you're pick, I guess you can't have em all...


LNT

[kenrick]

How do you know what I have or have not done?

:duel:

For the record, I have not climbed up Hidden. I don't see the point. If I wanted to go climbing, I would go climbing. If I wanted to canyoneer, I would go DOWN a canyon. Climbing UP Hidden is irrelevant to this discussion, except perhaps to show a lack of understanding :stud: and a tendency towards chest-beating. :haha: That you had not looked at a map before asking questions tends to be a bad sign, too.

Here's a link you might find useful: http://bit.ly/R3GWAt

Kolob is an advanced canyon, though perhaps the easiest of the advanced canyons in Zion. It is not so much that it is "hard", as that any mishap in there can have very serious consequences. Getting a rope stuck, easy to do in a flowing-water canyon, could result in spending a night or two in there. Depending where, that could be quite uncomfortable.

Appropriate Preparation: maybe 30 canyons, demonstrating some proficiency. A Telephunin would be a good choice (Telephone and Behunin). You should also do something that involves being cold for a long period of time and still functioning. Not sure what to recommend there, as Boundary is mostly dry these days so it does not help much. Das Boot is on the right track, but neither technical enough nor long enough to provide good preparation.

I recommend doing Boundary first, which is dry or almost dry these days. People often struggle on the MIA the first time, and because Boundary is considerably shorter, this gives people more time and energy to deal with finding the MIA route. I like Boundary better as an overnight-out the Narrows start, because it is shorter, drier and requires less rope. The hike out Kolob to the Narrows is long enough in "normal" conditions, when there is little flow. If there is significant flow in Kolob, hiking downstream can be VERY slow.

But now that I have lapsed into actual advice, rather than snarky rejoinder...

Whatever you do, a reasonably early start is highly recommended. Which means the permit etc. is dealt with the day before. Best if you can camp up at Lava Point. "Reasonably Early" means hitting the trail at 8 am or so, maybe 7 am in high summer. There's a TR on here somewhere about a group that got an early start (10 am was it?), spent the night in there, got a rescue called on them... all easily avoided problems if one is wise enough to follow the advice of the elders... :moses:

The water district is only open during banking hours, so your call to them will need to be made on a weekday, middle of the day. You will want to call about a week in advance, and also the day before you head that way. You will also want to check the water level where Kolob runs under the KT Road - even if you are ONLY doing Boundary.

"Class C" covers a wide range of canyons. What canyon is in your hood that you are running laps in?

Not many people have been through Kolob yet this year, so you should expect to have to re-rig some, most or all of the anchors. 100 feet of webbing and 10 rapides?

Other than the wealth of advice and information elsewhere available... what else would you be interested in knowing?

Tom


1) I know somewhat what you have and have not done because I read this book about it. =D Which by the way is my favorite book and helps me have good dreams at night! and once you Summit hidden, you still get to rap down it. Isn't 1/3 of Canyoneering bouldering/Obstacle Solving... which is basically all Hidden Canyon is?

2) Since it looks like Kolob would be on a monday, an early start looks out of the question. I knew overnight was most likely what will need to happen, just wanted to get a couple out there thoughts out of my head by bouncing them off you guys.

3) The reason why I have not looked at the topo maps yet is because I don't have a computer and they don't work that great on mobile. Trip is still 3 months out though, so there is still time!!! :D

4) Our local canyon is Poison Creek, and yes, it's a baby leader of a canyon, but it's all we got. It has a nice 60 chute waterfall rap into a pool that is at least something for practicing on.
73472


I have spent a lot of time on google the last couple days finding info, thanks for the link! But Google is what led me to here, and you guys are far more wiser and personal than google anyways. Thanks again for all the Info, really appreciate it, and your book I love!

If I get a lottery spot for the Subway, I was planning on Russel Gulch over Das Boot, tell me to switch it and I will. Since we will all have wetsuits/drysuits for the trip anyways, I guess we might as well do das boot.

Thanks Tom!

[spinesnaper]

Kenrick: Welcome to Bogley. As you can see we whole heartedly embrace individuals new to the community. Unfortunately, like a few canyons, you will encounter some poison ivy even on our welcome mat. What I can tell you is that the community is generous with information and encouragement. It is also protective and concerned about those who are new to canyoneering.

Are you capable to working your way through Kolob safely? We have no idea. But some questions do raise red flags that perhaps caution is advised. A trip down Boundary and up MIA, would provide you more information about this corridor. It is remote back there; as in no other humans potentially for days or weeks may travel that same corridor. I could go on and on.

I personally am hoping I will have my opportunity to do Kolob this fall. I have been trying to get in there for a couple of years now but between work and the water flow issues, it just has not come together for me. It is clearly a worthy objective but it is helpful to have the right skill set for this canyon.

Tom and others here are guessing based on your questions that you are not there yet. The great thing about Bogley is the generous advice freely offered including about one's readiness for a particular challenge.

Wish the welcome mat was clear of that damn poison ivy but its a welcome mat nonetheless.

Definitely do Das Boot with the Subway-classic. It is not particularly challenging but it increase the environmental exposure to sustained cold water. Tom's guide book is fantastic and worth reading exceptionally carefully as are many other great sources of beta out there.


Ken

[2065toyota]

Rescues and deaths just make us all look bad and will add to further government regulations.

Everything is easy until something goes wrong


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ratagonia]

1) I know somewhat what you have and have not done because I read this book about it. =D Which by the way is my favorite book and helps me have good dreams at night! and once you Summit hidden, you still get to rap down it. Isn't 1/3 of Canyoneering bouldering/Obstacle Solving... which is basically all Hidden Canyon is?

2) Since it looks like Kolob would be on a monday, an early start looks out of the question. I knew overnight was most likely what will need to happen, just wanted to get a couple out there thoughts out of my head by bouncing them off you guys.

3) The reason why I have not looked at the topo maps yet is because I don't have a computer and they don't work that great on mobile. Trip is still 3 months out though, so there is still time!!! :D

4) Our local canyon is Poison Creek, and yes, it's a baby leader of a canyon, but it's all we got. It has a nice 60 chute waterfall rap into a pool that is at least something for practicing on.

I have spent a lot of time on google the last couple days finding info, thanks for the link! But Google is what led me to here, and you guys are far more wiser and personal than google anyways. Thanks again for all the Info, really appreciate it, and your book I love!

If I get a lottery spot for the Subway, I was planning on Russel Gulch over Das Boot, tell me to switch it and I will. Since we will all have wetsuits/drysuits for the trip anyways, I guess we might as well do das boot.

Thanks Tom!

Das Boot is better. But requires acquiring a separate permit for that part (maybe), and has a group size limit of 6.

"Class C" means where the waterflow affects the technical difficulty. Poison Creek at the level shown is what we call "supposedly Class C", because it really isn't.

Here's what real class C looks like...

from here: http://www.ericdraper.com/portfolio21.html

ha ha... actually, that's kolob at a little bit too big to descend, but not too big to rap in and take pics.

Tom

[ratagonia]

1) I know somewhat what you have and have not done because I read this book about it.

The book discusses things I have done, but not things I have not done. And the book was written 7 years ago - I've done a few things since then. Not everything I have done is in the book - by a long shot. More stuff on the Rave, but not everything.

But thanks for your compliments. I think we have returned the discourse to a civil tone.

Tom

[jman]

Kenrick: Welcome to Bogley. As you can see we whole heartedly embrace individuals new to the community. Unfortunately, like a few canyons, you will encounter some poison ivy even on our welcome mat. What I can tell you is that the community is generous with information and encouragement. It is also protective and concerned about those who are new to canyoneering.

Are you capable to working your way through Kolob safely? We have no idea. But some questions do raise red flags that perhaps caution is advised. A trip down Boundary and up MIA, would provide you more information about this corridor. It is remote back there; as in no other humans potentially for days or weeks may travel that same corridor. I could go on and on.

I personally am hoping I will have my opportunity to do Kolob this fall. I have been trying to get in there for a couple of years now but between work and the water flow issues, it just has not come together for me. It is clearly a worthy objective but it is helpful to have the right skill set for this canyon.

Tom and others here are guessing based on your questions that you are not there yet. The great thing about Bogley is the generous advice freely offered including about one's readiness for a particular challenge.

Wish the welcome mat was clear of that damn poison ivy but its a welcome mat nonetheless.

Definitely do Das Boot with the Subway-classic. It is not particularly challenging but it increase the environmental exposure to sustained cold water. Tom's guide book is fantastic and worth reading exceptionally carefully as are many other great sources of beta out there.


Ken

Thanks Ken, that was well said!

[Byron]

Did I miss an opportunity to display my rapier wit?

TI was just about to throw ya a big Attaboy! when I read this and thought "Oh for Christ's sake"!

But I've got to admit, you're beta post was excellent.

And to the inexperienced guy that wants to do Kolob...you'd be wise to take the advice given here regarding those other canyons to learn the ropes. Reading about rappelling from one nice waterfall to another sounds nice, and some of them in Kolob are like that...but there's a couple that have you standing on this thin lip above the yawing abyss, and you've got to get hooked up. You'd better know what you're doing.

[spinesnaper]

Thanks Ken, that was well said!

I just wanted Kenrick to understand that the boot shaped bruise with the Bogley logo on his behind is just a little canyoneering love. That is just how goofy questions get answered here. It is kind of a right of passage. I had my share. It's a good way to get some tough love before beating yourself up in those big canyons.

Ken

[kenrick]

Kenrick: Welcome to Bogley. As you can see we whole heartedly embrace individuals new to the community. Unfortunately, like a few canyons, you will encounter some poison ivy even on our welcome mat. What I can tell you is that the community is generous with information and encouragement. It is also protective and concerned about those who are new to canyoneering.

Are you capable to working your way through Kolob safely? We have no idea. But some questions do raise red flags that perhaps caution is advised. A trip down Boundary and up MIA, would provide you more information about this corridor. It is remote back there; as in no other humans potentially for days or weeks may travel that same corridor. I could go on and on.

I personally am hoping I will have my opportunity to do Kolob this fall. I have been trying to get in there for a couple of years now but between work and the water flow issues, it just has not come together for me. It is clearly a worthy objective but it is helpful to have the right skill set for this canyon.

Tom and others here are guessing based on your questions that you are not there yet. The great thing about Bogley is the generous advice freely offered including about one's readiness for a particular challenge.

Wish the welcome mat was clear of that damn poison ivy but its a welcome mat nonetheless.

Definitely do Das Boot with the Subway-classic. It is not particularly challenging but it increase the environmental exposure to sustained cold water. Tom's guide book is fantastic and worth reading exceptionally carefully as are many other great sources of beta out there.


Ken

Hey Ken,

Thank you for the welcome! It's an online forum so I expect the poison ivy, and it's better to get beat up on here if it helps not get beat up out there. Thanks for the information, I'll definitely plan on das boot if I get it, and I'll have to see about maybe joining the circle of friends to get all the betas.

You mentioned waterflow issues and I read a topic a couple years ago about possible stonewalling from the water district. Have you had much issues with the water being too high, or getting info from the water district, and what cfs would you say has it normally been?

[kenrick]

Das Boot is better. But requires acquiring a separate permit for that part (maybe), and has a group size limit of 6.

"Class C" means where the waterflow effects the technical difficulty. Poison Creek at the level shown is what we call "supposedly Class C", because it really isn't.

Here's what real class C looks like...

from here: http://www.ericdraper.com/portfolio21.html

ha ha... actually, that's kolob at a little bit too big to descend, but not too big to rap in and take pics.

Tom

If I drive two hours I can get to shoshone falls, a true class C!

http://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/magicvalley.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/9/88/988e21c8-85af-11e0-aafb-001cc4c03286/4ddb1b4d913f9.preview-300.jpg

[ratagonia]

Hey Ken,

Thank you for the welcome! It's an online forum so I expect the poison ivy, and it's better to get beat up on here if it helps not get beat up out there. Thanks for the information, I'll definitely plan on das boot if I get it, and I'll have to see about maybe joining the circle of friends to get all the betas.

You mentioned waterflow issues and I read a topic a couple years ago about possible stonewalling from the water district. Have you had much issues with the water being too high, or getting info from the water district, and what cfs would you say has it normally been?

The Water District has been very cooperative for quite a few years. Part of the problem the last few years is that they have had lots and lots of water, so they were releasing close to all the time. It made it hard to get in.

Normal Maintenance release is 3-5 cfs. The canyon is fun at this level.

Normal Irrigation release is 10-15 cfs. The canyon is un-doable at this level.

It can run higher, and sometimes it is 0.

What they release at the dam is not necessarily what shows up in the Canyon.

They have not very much water this year, so we should be able to get into the canyon more. Except -

In low water years, they are required to yield their water to the federal Fish and Wildlife Service. There is a hotspring in the Virgin River at LaVerkin, and when the flow is too low, the FWS has the Water District release water at the dam to put some cold water in so the water below the hotspring is not too hot for the endangered Virgin River Chub. When the Water District yields control to FWS, they cannot project their release schedule - so they say so, and the canyon is essentially closed. Even if they are not releasing, because they could be told to do so at any time.

The Wilderness Desk at Zion may or may not be kept up to date by the Water District. If you REALLY want to get in and get a permit, when you get the thumbs up from the Water District, you should call the Wilderness Desk and make sure they have it recorded that the flow is in the acceptable range (0-5 cfs) so they will give you a permit. If you come in on Saturday, and they have not been notified, they cannot THEN call the District, so the cannot issue you a permit.

Check the flow at the bridge. You never know.

Tom :moses:

[spinesnaper]

You mentioned waterflow issues and I read a topic a couple years ago about possible stonewalling from the water district. Have you had much issues with the water being too high, or getting info from the water district, and what cfs would you say has it normally been?

What Tom says. He is really the expert on these issues. I have had many conversations with the Water District. Let me simply say that they are not canyoneers. I am pretty sure that they think canyoneers are a bit insane. So if it was up to them, I think they would tell you that no matter if they are releasing water or not, you would be far safer taking up tennis rather than descending a water way in which people have died. The Back Country Desk in Zion is also equally concerned about your sanity. I personally also think that they would rather have you play tennis at the lodge than risk having to pull you to safety in the Zion back country. Please remember that in 2013 the park had almost 3 million visitors. The rangers even have to rescue lost visitors from the visitor center parking lot! That has to breed a certain level of skepticism regarding outdoor capability for people showing up at that desk asking for exotic wilderness permits. These are not the people to ask if you need a bolt kit for a particular canyon, or, perhaps more revealing, if they know if the saw blade in your Swiss army knife is adequate for the amputating the distal radius in your forearm should that become necessary in the canyon. On the other hand, they often do have useful information regarding water levels in certain canyons and new hazards that may have been reported and you should ask them about that sort of information. As you gain more experience, the nature of your canyoneering specific questions will elicit the information you need without raising suspicions that you may not know what you are doing. It seems to be part of the process. It is a very beta intensive activity.

Ken

[hank moon]

"Class C" means where the waterflow effects the technical difficulty.

that's "affects" :)


and waterflow generally increases risk, also part of the Class C calculation.

[mzamp]

that's "affects" :)

and waterflow generally increases risk, also part of the Class C calculation.

???
Water could be flowing in both an "A" or "B" canyon if you go though at the right times. This would increase both the difficulty and risk, but that doesn't make them "C" canyons (IMO). Just as if one goes though a dry canyon after a storm and ends up wading through some water. That doesn't make it a "B".

The rating system states "Normally". http://www.canyoneering.net/docs/ratings.pdf

[ratagonia]

???
Water could be flowing in both an "A" or "B" canyon if you go though at the right times. This would increase both the difficulty and risk, but that doesn't make them "C" canyons (IMO). Just as if one goes though a dry canyon after a storm and ends up wading through some water. That doesn't make it a "B".

The rating system states "Normally". http://www.canyoneering.net/docs/ratings.pdf


Uh well...

subtleties...

The general rating is for the canyon in "normal" conditions, which may or may not be normal, because normal might mean when it is normally done. In Europe, they don't bother doing the canyons when they are dry, but the rating would always be "C", since the canyon is normally done when it has flow in it.

Put significant flowing water in Imlay, and you are doing it in "Class C conditions". It does not mean that the guidebook needs to be changed. Brian Cabe has done Imlay in Class A conditions - barely got his feet wet, though other parts of the descent were almost blinding.

Tom

[Brian in SLC]

^^^
I'm emotionally scarred forever...

The horror...the horror...

(Still pysched we only used "natural" features to climb out of the potholes. Maybe "au natural" was our good karma battle cry...)

[Brian in SLC]

that's "affects"

"Affect" is usually the verb, and, effect is usually a noun. But, there are cases where "effect" can be used as a verb.

effect verb: to achieve something and cause it to happen

[Iceaxe]

^^^
I'm emotionally scarred forever...

The horror...the horror...

(Still pysched we only used "natural" features to climb out of the potholes. Maybe "au natural" was our good karma battle cry...)

I'm still trying to figure out where exactly you put your hands for the partner assist.

***shutters at the thought***

:popcorn:

[Iceaxe]

1)If I get a lottery spot for the Subway, I was planning on Russel Gulch over Das Boot, tell me to switch it and I will. Since we will all have wetsuits/drysuits for the trip anyways, I guess we might as well do das boot.

On the canyon awesome scale of 1 to 10, with 10 being the best.

Russel Gulch is a 2
Das Boot is a 9

YMMV


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oF_L-fwpzyI

[nelsonccc]

I've never once called the water district, but that's mostly since back in the day they never gave you a straight answer anyways. I've always looked at the dam and the bridge. In my experience it's always way less than you see at the bridge. It's a pretty simple hike into the top of Kolob to check it right there at the first drop. Though I will say that the first time we did it I would say it was about 4cfs and I thought that was a lot of water in there. Doesn't take much more than that to be pretty scary.

[hank moon]

"Affect" is usually the verb, and, effect is usually a noun. But, there are cases where "effect" can be used as a verb.

effect verb: to achieve something and cause it to happen


bien sur! and in this case, "affects" is correct and "effects" is incorrect. I only mention it 'cuz i know Senor Jones has a profound appreciation for le mot juste...

[spinesnaper]

I've never once called the water district, but that's mostly since back in the day they never gave you a straight answer anyways. I've always looked at the dam and the bridge. In my experience it's always way less than you see at the bridge. It's a pretty simple hike into the top of Kolob to check it right there at the first drop. Though I will say that the first time we did it I would say it was about 4cfs and I thought that was a lot of water in there. Doesn't take much more than that to be pretty scary.

Nelson

Does that mean doing Kolob Canyon on the "non-park" side without the administrative hassles of the permit process?:roll: Not that anyone does that any more of course.

Ken

[nelsonccc]

Nelson

Does that mean doing Kolob Canyon on the "non-park" side without the administrative hassles of the permit process?:roll: Not that anyone does that any more of course.

Ken

I'm always very careful to stay on the north side of the canyon.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

[ratagonia]

bien sur! and in this case, "affects" is correct and "effects" is incorrect. I only mention it 'cuz i know Senor Jones has a profound appreciation for le mot juste...

And I appreciate the appreciation, Hank. I DID have a rule for that, which was just plain wrong. I am happy to have improved my Inglish.

'preciate ya.

Tom

[Skeeter]

For the record, poison creek is not class c, not in the least bit.
Skye

[GueroSteve]

Isn't there an internet law out there, that Trolls and Compleat Idiots are impossible to tell apart? Maybe Gandalf's law?

:moses:

It's called Poe's Law

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law

[Byron]

"Any sufficiently advanced troll is indistinguishable from a genuine kook"

Oh I love it!