4/12/14 - Family Rescued from Sandthrax after 3 Days

[jman]

Those darn canyoneers are at it again.....


FROM SL TRIBUNE (http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/57812072-78/amp-canyon-county-sandthrax.html.csp):
On 4/12/14.

"A Payson father and his sons were rescued Saturday after getting stuck at a Garfield County canyon.

Jason Knight, 35, and his 11 and 8-year-old sons entered Sandthrax Canyon — about midway between Canyonlands and Capitol Reef national parks — on Wednesday. That day, the father became trapped 350 feet down between the tight canyon walls, and told the boys to stay where they were — on a ledge at the top of the canyon — to prevent further incident, according to a Wayne County news release.

The boys had only a small amount of water and a granola bar between them. The water only lasted a day.

After the three failed to return Friday afternoon, as Knight told his wife they would, the search was on for the missing family, according to the release.

By Saturday morning, search teams from Garfield and Wayne counties, along with a Utah Department of Public Safety helicopter, were searching the canyon for them.

At 11:50 a.m., the helicopter crew spotted the two boys on the ledge. Search crews found their father half an hour later about 150 yards away.

By about 4:30 p.m., all three were safely rescued. The boys had cramps and were dehydrated, and the father appeared to be fine, according to the release.
The Canyoneering USA website describes Sandthrax as a short, intense canyon."

More Info - HERE (http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/57812072-78/amp-canyon-county-sandthrax.html.csp)

[summitseeker]

...WTF?

I have to assume that this father did not know that he has dropping into Sandthrax. No sane person would attempt this with kids, but after this article maybe more families and weekend warriors will give sandthrax a go... after all, you dont really need rope skills.

I'm sure the story will come out.

I do have to say, hearing about this event bruised my forehead from the facepalm.

I like the reference to Canyoneering USA: Sandthrax is described "as a short, intense canyon". . . that is a bit of a oversimplification and understatement. Tom, I hope you don't get sued :haha:

Be safe out there guys.

[TommyBoy]

...WTF?

I like the reference to Canyoneering USA: Sandthrax is described "as a short, intense canyon". . . that is a bit of a oversimplification and understatement. Tom, I hope you don't get sued :haha:

Be safe out there guys.

It's only misleading if you take it out of context. Since its sandwiched in between lots of descriptions about how hard it is and that i was even considered impossible for a while then its his own fault, assuming of course that Sandthrax was his intended target and he didn't just drop into the wrong one on accident.

[Iceaxe]

Utah man, sons rescued from canyon after 3-day ordeal
April 12, 2014, by Mark Green (http://fox13now.com/author/kstumarkgreen/),

GARFIELD COUNTY, Utah – A man and his two sons were rescued after they had been missing in Sandthrax Canyon for at least three days.

Jason Knight and his two sons arrived in Hanksville Tuesday; Knight is from Payson and had come to the area to camp.

According to a press release from Wayne County officials, authorities were contacted Friday after a woman called to say she had seen a man and two boys enter the canyon with a day pack, and she said after three days they had still not returned to their camp.

Crews first located the overdue party’s car, and Saturday just before noon a Department of Public Safety helicopter found the two boys on a ledge at the top of the canyon. About 30 minutes later, the man was found 150 yards away. He was about 350 feet down toward the bottom of the canyon and had been trapped by the tight canyon walls.

Crews said the boys hadn’t seen their father since Wednesday when he told them to stay put to avoid further trouble. The boys had consumed all of their water Wednesday and had one granola bar to share.

The boys were extracted at about 1:45 p.m. Saturday and the father by about 4:26 p.m. The extractions were carried out by the high angle rescue team from Wayne County Sheriff’s Office.

Officials said the boys were dehydrated but otherwise OK. There were no serious injuries among the family.

According to the press release: “Wayne County Sheriff’s Office would like to express their appreciation to all those who assisted with these rescue efforts. Garfield County Sheriff, Utah Department of Public Safety, and our own Wayne County Sheriff’s Search & Rescue.”

72689

[Iceaxe]

I assume the family entered Sandthrax by mistake.... but I do have some concern over how Sandthrax is sometimes portrayed as a short romp for the skilled. I can only assume it is done to boost the image of those making the comments. Sandthrax is the same serious canyon it has always been and the crux is considered by some to be the most difficult crux of any Colorado Plateau canyon. No matter what else is said, mistakes in Sandthrax are not easy to overcome and could be deadly.

[accadacca]

Wow, seems like there is a rescue every week! Does anybody know how many rescues we've had so far in 2014? I'm sure we could count them on bogley...

[TommyBoy]

I guess I just jumped to the conclusion that it was their target because of the line at the end from quoting Tom's site, but that was probably just something the author of the article put in.

[Bootboy]

It's just canyoneering, how hard could it be, right?

People are so clueless.

Sheesh


LNT

[rnelson]

I have to agree (and hope!) and assume that they dropped in by mistake.

The quote at the end of the article reads:
The Canyoneering USA website describes Sandthrax as a short, intense canyon

That ought to say something like, "Sandthrax is a deadly vixen that will turn you into a squashed, broken canyoneer at your first mistake."

I feel bad for the kids, that must have been terrifying, I bet that's the last time they agree to go hiking with dad again. Glad everyone is ok.

[accadacca]

I feel bad for the kids, that must have been terrifying, I bet that's the last time they agree to go hiking with dad again. Glad everyone is ok.
I agree. Poor kids... That was a LONG ordeal without food and water.

[Scott P]

Whoa. I bet the 8 and 11 year old were really scared having to stand or sit there alone for three days. Glad they were found.

[Iceaxe]

Terrible ordeal for all.... imagine being the father stuck in the slot with your young children above and there is not a damn thing you can do to save anyone... totally helpless... that is a father's worst nightmare.

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[moab mark]

"Mr. Knight is an experienced in climbing,caving, and canyoneering. He did follow your prescribed list. His time table did expire and the proper authorities where notified promptly. Knight brings almost twice as much gear as needed. He just found a spot where his body shape didn't match the shape of the canyon; his boys are experienced enough to have gotten themselves to a save location and they followed their dad's instructions. We are grateful to have them home!"

This was posted in the comments on ksl. If this guy really knows the story and they were in the right canyon he needs to pick a new sport.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

[Scott P]

.. that is a father's worst nightmare.

There is also the nightmare of having to face the wife afterwards.

[Absolute Gravity]

This was posted in the comments on ksl. If this guy really knows the story and they were in the right canyon he needs to pick a new sport.

And Child Protective Services needs to arrange a little talk.

[jasonbx]

I know Jason from caving. I won't try and speculate too much on how/why they ended up there until I hear a direct answer. (Already multiple conflicting stories on news sites.) But from what I've seen about the canyon in researching this morning (Climb-utah and others), there is no way he intentionally took his kids to a canyon that intense and expected to go very far. Tight spots don't bother him. But last I checked, he doesn't like heights much even when on rope. And he would not expect his kids to be able to bridge and do technical moves on that level. My guess is just exploring and poking around in a new area, maybe scouting for future trip. Definitely not expecting anything that intense with kids along.

[PG Rob]

Based on the KSL comments, the following are the best ways I can see to know that someone is a skilled and experienced canyoneer:

1: They take twice the necessary gear into Sandthrax... because we all know (those that have done Sandthrax) you just can't have enough gear. In fact, I wish I took 10 times the gear that is needed (you can't be too safe). Additionally, I am going to start doing this while mountaineering too. From now on, I will take 2 sleeping bags, an extra tent, a few extra pair of crampons, 1000 feet of rope, 4 helmets, etc... (again, you can't be too safe).

2: They are so awesome, that they can take young children into places less skilled and experienced canyoneers won't go.

3: They know how and where to find those secret spots in canyons where the canyons shape does not match their own shape. Additionally, they recognize this is nature, you can't change it, and the best thing to do is go straight into those places rather than climb over or under them.

4: If they have been climbing or caving before, they are probably an awesome canyoneer, since all you really do is hike and slide down ropes.

5: They are in the know on who to have their family call to bail them out. The good news with this is most SAR personnel have nothing better to do with their time or money than to go out to see the skilled and experienced canyoneers in the canyon environment.

6: They are so good that they don't need to bother with navigation or knowing which canyon they are in. That is for those less skilled and experienced than them.

7: Lastly, the skilled and experienced canyoneer will make sure his friends and family know of his/her skill and why they are so skilled and experienced. This way, they can defend their reputation when they are away or occupied in a deep canyon somewhere.

In summary, I have learned a lot in what I need to do to be a more skilled and experienced Canyoneer. I just hope I'm not the only one learning from this experience. Please evaluate this list carefully to assess your overall skill and experience.

Thank You!

[Iceaxe]

Quick update from a friend - The father and son's intended to do East Fork of Leprechaun and somehow ended up in Sandthrax. The father will be interviewed tomorrow morning on Good Morning America.

Or at least that is what I have been told. :cool2:

[Mountaineer]

Quick update from a friend - The father and son's intended to do East Fork of Leprechaun and somehow ended up in Sandthrax.


This makes some sense. I can't believe any responsible father would take his two young kids there on purpose.

[deagol]

Quick update from a friend - The father and son's intended to do East Fork of Leprechaun and somehow ended up in Sandthrax. The father will be interviewed tomorrow morning on Good Morning America.

Or at least that is what I have been told. :cool2:

So will there be a second "Ralston affect" now with the mainstream exposure on TV? ... just what we need.

[Iceaxe]

So will there be a second "Ralston affect" now with the mainstream exposure on TV?

I highly doubt it, these types of rescues are a monthly deal. Ralston's was an amazing story of survival that captured the counties imagination.

[Scott P]

The father and son's intended to do East Fork of Leprechaun and somehow ended up in Sandthrax.

How in the heck would that happen? :ne_nau: When you go up the approach route, East Lep is to the west. Santhrax is to the east.

[deagol]

I highly doubt it, these types of rescues are a monthly deal. Ralston's was an amazing story of survival that captured the counties imagination.


What I meant by the "Ralston effect" was another waive of ill-prepared people (who may not have ever even heard of canyoneering) heading to a specific area of canyons after some publicity (i.e. a movie like 127 Hours or an appearance on a talk show). I am thinking back to the stories of people showing up in Robber's Roost after seeing that movie looking for the Blue Hole. Or to say it another way: mention of Sandthrax & North wash on the Today show puts this spot and activity on everyone's radar screen and then bam.....

[jman]

Saw this passing on Facebook -
http://fox13now.com/2014/04/12/utah-man-sons-rescued-from-canyon-after-3-day-ordeal/#ooid=15aGgybToesT4KzslhDOUiBzonFjlEUZ

Guess he was interviewed by Fox13.



"was told it was very easy for kids" and "recommended for kids."

"there was one caveat, don't go the canyon next to it - Sandthrax"

Reporter: "Sandthrax has the name for a reason - people have died there"

"Got the end" and realized it was the wrong canyon?

Reporter: "Knight said that his respect for Southern Utah rescue workers has grown..."
Knight: "they literally turn and burn and go from one rescue to the other...and they don't go home...and hopefully have enough gas to go to the next rescue".


huh???? :eek2:


As Booter says in reference to these rescues, "the future of canyoneering". I really hope not! :facepalm1:

[Bootboy]

As Booter says in reference to these rescues, "the future of canyoneering". I really hope not! :facepalm1:

It inevitably is. You can see it from miles away.

I hate it when the news makes a big dramatic story out of these incidents.

It's all headed toward a permit system in the North Wash. The place is getting over-run by people who saw a video or pictures on Facebook and thought that canyoneering looked "sick" or "tight". Social media is the worst thing to happen to these canyons. People spray videos and pictures for various reasons, mostly egocentrism if you ask me, with no thought for the fragility and uniqueness of these places and their preservation.

It's either permits or you'll be waiting in a procession of clambering gapers to drop into leprechaun.
Just wait, mark my words.


LNT

[spinesnaper]

I'd love to have been a fly on the wall when Dad was explaining to Mom what happened to the boys. I suspect he will be sleeping on the sofa for a while. These are the Irish canyons. Perhaps that name was chosen because its so easy to drop into the wrong slot. Glad they are out safely.

[Slot Machine]

Seems like now would be the prime time to launch a private SAR business in Hanksville.

:hmm2:

$5000 a day! Who wants in?

[Slot Machine]

Social media is the worst thing to happen to these canyons. People spray videos and pictures for various reasons, mostly egocentrism if you ask me, with no thought for the fragility and uniqueness of these places and their preservation.

Lord, grant BB the serenety to accept the things he cannot change...

[Iceaxe]

I don't see permits in the future of BLM canyons. It's just not the way the BLM operates. The BLM Attitude has always been if the idiots want to stand in a line to kill themselves so be it... look at base jumping and rope swings for a reference.

Also the BLM just doesn't have the man power or resources to deal with permits. If they did I expect they would first try and do a better job of protecting ruins and rock art through permits.

But we might see a change in the way SAR is paid for. I don't see how these small rural counties can continue to shoulder the expense.


Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[Mountaineer]

But we might see a change in the way SAR is paid for. I don't see how these small rural counties can continue to shoulder the expense.



I agree.

And each rescue (now every weekend) should be reviewed carefully: trip planning, preparation done, skills/experience resume, canyon level, and execution.

"So, you started at the TH to do the Pandora full route at 10:30 am?"

"Do you have a map, compass, GPS and know how to use them?"

etc.

Anyone can twist an ankle, make a mistake, and yes get in an accident. However, there are some rescues that beg further review.

[mzamp]

Especially this one. He said without preparedness and the rescue team he would not have made it out. I hate making judgements but....
72695

[Iceaxe]

Here is the link to the Good Morning America story:
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/father-sons-stranded-sandthrax-canyon-days-wrong-turn-23315320

[Caverknight]

Hello Everyone

I just want to thank everyone here that helped out here. As some of you know the news sometimes get facts wrong and spins them. So here are the facts for people that understand the outdoors and these kinds of activities.


1. I was headed towards Leprechaun Canyon. I had the Tom Canyonnering site. One of the best Sites and information out there. I also had 2 guide book with a a map and pictures with me. With all of this I still manged to make it in the wrong canyon. This was my fault not anyone of the guide books.

2. I had a 200' rope with petzal Helmets for everyone with racks. I do not like ATC or Figure 8 (yes you can hate me for this) To do a canyon from multiple scores saying you just need a daisy chain or a hand line depending on what you read. I had my kids and I do not want them desenidng wihtout a belay.

3. I had 1 gallon of water for a 3-5 hour hike. I also had 2 pro meal bars. 5 cliff type bars and 3 snickers candy bar. Again for a 3-5 hour hike.

4. I made sure that the drops we right before I commuted to the canyon by making sure that the drops where the correct height and the canyon pictures looked right in the guild books.

5. I am a avoid outsdoorsman like many many people of this site. Many of you know what know what canyoneering is rock climbing etc. Most of the general public does not have a clue. As a community we know how important it is to have a self-rescue plan. I have been caving for 14 years going 2-5 times a month. I have done canyoneering, Hiking, rock climbing all over the west. I have never had anything like this or close to this even happen. I appreciate most of you comments. We can all learn from this. It goes back to the basics which are

1. Know where you are going
2. Plan ahead.
3. Take food and water even though some guild books say not too.
4. Tell people where you are going and when you will be back
5. Have a self rescue plan that will go into affect without your help a fail safe switch.

One more thing. Some one mentioned about the affect of having so much attention to this canyon. I agree with your worries. I do want anyone to go there and get hurt or killed but we all know that this will probably happen. Some young hot shot will try it and we all know what will probably happen. We can see this in Blue John and in many caves in the west when some one gets hurt or killed visitation sky rockets.

For the record there where three places I never want to go or do.

One is cave diving. One small mistake your dead.

Two is the hydrogen sulphate cave that floods from the back and the front randomly. If the water does not get you the hydrogen sulphate will kill you in 30-45 minutes. (Hydrogen sulfate seeps in you sink)

Three is Sandthrax. No other canyon has so much high angle steaming and just dangerous as this one. One slip and that is it. A 50'-80' fall into a crack where you will get stuck and die. Do not think that you can conquer it it is not wroth it. There are 1000's of other canyon that are around that can "test you" that do not have such high odds of getting hurt or killed.

I have rambled enough here. I thought I owned this to the community or outdoors-man to address some of the more technical questions that you had. I thank you for your support.

Jason Knight

[PG Rob]

Jason,

Thank you for posting.

How did you misnavigate? I assume that you started from Sandthrax Campground? Fro there, leprechaun and sandthrax are in completely different directions.

On the Fox interview, you said you reached the end of the canyon. Having been through Sandthrax, I suspect this is inaccurate. How far did you actually go in the canyon?

Were you physically stuck, or merely stopped by obstacles you could not pass?

Thank you again for posting.

We all look forward to more information.

[Scott P]

Caverknight; thanks for responding.


4. I made sure that the drops we right before I commuted to the canyon by making sure that the drops where the correct height and the canyon pictures looked right in the guild books.

I think this is where many of us are wondering what happened. East Fork Lep and Sandthrax are opposite directions from each other when doing the approach from the bottom (the heads of each canyon are over a mile apart). Did you do the approach from the bottom or a car shuttle from the top?

I'm just curious in hearing what happened rather than wanting to chastise you or anything.

[ratagonia]

Hello Everyone

I just want to thank everyone here that helped out here. As some of you know the news sometimes get facts wrong and spins them. So here are the facts for people that understand the outdoors and these kinds of activities.

...
Jason Knight

Thanks for the update, Jason.

I'd say, after making a bad mistake, you handled things quite well. Love the "three hour tour" comment...

Tom

[ratagonia]

Caverknight; thanks for responding.

I think this is where many of us are wondering what happened. East Fork Lep and Sandthrax are opposite directions from each other when doing the approach from the bottom (the heads of each canyon are over a mile apart). Did you do the approach from the bottom or a car shuttle from the top?

I'm just curious in hearing what happened rather than wanting to chastise you or anything.


It is not an easy thing to get to Sandthrax from the top.

The start of the canyons, the commitment points, are quite different, and would not have matched the description. This is the most perplexing part to understand for a well-prepared and savvy person such as Jason, but our brains don't always latch on to the obvious.

I know a bolt has appeared at the top of Sandthrax, and my raving/biased opinion is that having a bolt there makes it possible for people to say "look, there is a bolt, this must be one of the canyons that people do all the time". We hope to remove the bolt soon; and I would encourage SandThraxers to also remove any webbing they leave at that first rappel as well.

Tom

[YellowstoneYeti]

My wife and I are the concerned citizens who contacted the authorities concerning this rescue. None of the news articles mentioned that we had called actually called this in to the rangers at Glen Canyon on Thursday, approximately 30 hours after the family departed. Not the proper jurisdiction, I know, but we didn't have cell service and were headed to the Hite area for the afternoon anyway. Since we were camped at the Irish Canyons trailhead, we knew that s&r had not been called out that night. When we got cell service the next day, we again contacted the GC rangers who then had the Garfield Co sheriff call us. He later called us back and gave us a number for his deputy in Boulder who we contacted. By this time it was 6pm on Friday. We had left the area at this point and were camped in the Swell. At this point, it sounded like the wheels were in motion for a rescue. Nothing against s&r, but it seems like this family could have been rescued 1 1/2 days sooner with a simple phone call to the family's residence. Anyway, I'm grateful that they were found alive and safe and kudos to s&r. I hope if I'm ever in that situation, someone will watch out for me.

[Caverknight]

I started from the campground and thought that I was between Leprechaun and blarney canyon. The Fox interview was horrid they chop and pieced me together. The magic of editing. I got to the Crux of the canyon. The big silo. According to my information this is that last major thing before you walk out? I would love to know if this is true.

[Caverknight]

Thanks for looking out for us. It made things happen faster by many hours.

[ratagonia]

It's only misleading if you take it out of context. Since its sandwiched in between lots of descriptions about how hard it is and that i was even considered impossible for a while then its his own fault, assuming of course that Sandthrax was his intended target and he didn't just drop into the wrong one on accident.

Thank you TommyBoy. Here is the ENTIRE introductory section:

Life in the Fast Lane

http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/images/stories/CanyonGuide/NorthWash/sandthraxhenrys.jpgView of Sandthrax Slot and the Henry Mountains
"She had a nasty reputation as a cruel dude,
They said she was ruthless, said she was crude..."
She had a nasty reputation as "impossible", which has diminished of late due to several descents, but among veterans she inspires a hefty respect.
Sandthrax is a short, intense canyon in North Wash, next to the Leprechaun system. The stopper section is a 5" to 10" vertical crack about 15 feet tall, with 30 feet of exposure. It has been stemmed up high - very exposed and rated as 5.11c(?) - no thanks! The few who have tried to really free it say very awkward hard 5.10 or ... Personally, AFTER aiding as high as I could on two #6 Camalots, I thought it was still hard 5.9 or 5.10 to get over the top. Needless to say, intelligent Sandthraxers need a robust strategy for passing this obstacle.
Outside this short bit, the canyon is a quite nice, sustained, not extremely difficult X- (X minus) high-stemming/mae west canyon that can be quite pretty and is fun for the mae-west-proficient. Most of the canyon can be cautiously passed in a back-feet chimney, with only a couple silos that require stretching out more, although the length of the sections without relief can be quite daunting. Don't underestimate the rest of the canyon - it is grueling.

[Caverknight]

Yep that bolt has to go!! and yes I left webbing down at the bottom of the Silo because it was starting to rain and was thundering.

[PG Rob]

The silo is 1/3 of the way through the canyon and is not the crux. The crux is an off width climb of 20-25 feet. It is then followed by a few silos which I consider to be worse than the one you are referring to.

[Mountaineer]

For the record there where three places I never want to go or do.

One is cave diving. One small mistake your dead.
....

Three is Sandthrax. No other canyon has so much high angle steaming and just dangerous as this one. One slip and that is it. A 50'-80' fall into a crack where you will get stuck and die. Do not think that you can conquer it it is not wroth it. There are 1000's of other canyon that are around that can "test you" that do not have such high odds of getting hurt or killed.

I have rambled enough here. I thought I owned this to the community or outdoors-man to address some of the more technical questions that you had. I thank you for your support.

Jason Knight

Thanks for posting up Jason. As also a fellow scuba diver, I agree with you on the caves! Not part of my risk list.

Glad you made it out OK!! I can't imagine the feelings and slow march of time; as you were helpless below your kids.

[ratagonia]

I started from the campground and thought that I was between Leprechaun and blarney canyon. The Fox interview was horrid they chop and pieced me together. The magic of editing. I got to the Crux of the canyon. The big silo. According to my information this is that last major thing before you walk out? I would love to know if this is true.

The CRUX is the off-width upclimb which starts almost on the ground, kind of a comfortable place. That is 2/3 or 3/4 of the way through. There is still plenty of sports action after that point.

The big silo is before that, maybe 1/2 way through the canyon.

This is a pretty good TR/description of the canyon:

http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/sandthrax-canyon/

Tom

[mzamp]

I hate to be an ass, but based on the huge number of grammatical errors it seems Jason has very little attention to detail. So it does not surprise me then that he could think he was between Blarney and Leprechaun when starting from the campground.



4. I made sure that the drops we right before I commuted to the canyon by making sure that the drops where the correct height and the canyon pictures looked right in the guild books.

What the heck does this mean? How did you get separated from your kids? Were they at the top of the first rap? Could you not ascend the rope back up to them? Were you continuing down canyon to get help? Were you even aware of Sandthrax being in the area?

[Caverknight]

The CRUX is the off-width upclimb which starts almost on the ground, kind of a comfortable place. That is 2/3 or 3/4 of the way through. There is still plenty of sports action after that point.

The big silo is before that, maybe 1/2 way through the canyon.

This is a pretty good TR/description of the canyon:

http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/sandthrax-canyon/

Tom


yup that is where I was.

[Sombeech]

yup that is where I was.

Thanks for checking in with your version

[Iceaxe]

Jason, thanks for posting.

If by big silo you mean the one guarded by a piton on the upstream side you had reached the crux. Getting to the bottom of the big silo is fairly easy compared to the rest of the slot. It's the difficult off-width climb to exit the silo that creates the crux. Is this what stopped you? From the crux you still have more difficult canyon and there is never a walk out. You are just climbing along and the canyon ends at a crack you downclimb.


Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[Iceaxe]

For those that want to know what Sandthrax is like this is by far the best video I know of.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtpwIT9x128

Thanks to Jason Kaplan for use of the video. Jason was accompanied by Nathan Meader and Penny Martens. Some of the photos in the video are from previous trips, and credited to Ben Hebb (Rest In Peace) and Nathan Meader.

The first Big Silo is at 4:02. The crux begins at 4:32.

[Caverknight]

[QUOTE=mzamp;555636]I hate to be an !@#$%^&*, but based on the huge number of grammatical errors it seems Jason has very little attention to detail. So it does not surprise me then that he could think he was between Blarney and Leprechaun when starting from the campground.


Yes I am a terrible speller at my best. Dealing with the media and lack of sleep dehydration has only made this worse. I had 3 major networks in my front room yesterday. I thought this would be a good story to help fund the search and rescue down there. I have only been home for 36 hours as on this post. I had a interview at 4:00 a.m with set up at 2:00 a.m As you may not know or know when you go canyoneering you pull the ropes after you make sure are in the right canyon. I was many thousand of feet into the canyon I think. And yes I knew about sandtharax and the the other four technical canyons and one hike that are within a .50 mile radius of the camp ground. Including lucky charms that you have to do the right way or you will get stuck. In the guild books and on line there are three drops that are about the same size as in sandthrax. I had never been to this area before and a lot of the directions are vague due to the terrain looking the same. Again not the guide books fault. Next time I will bring my hoover boots, Crystal ball and magic carpet and a spell checker to help me out.

What more could I do? I had enough food for 2 days for 3 people for a 3-5 hours hike. Yes I messed up but again I had back up plans self rescue and was prepared as best as I could do. I have put on mines/cave gates all over the west that where a lot more remote than this. I have hiked up mountains with no trails, scree, cliffs with no injury's I do not like to take chances. I use a rope if I can. I do not like exposer. I have been underground for days at a time. I am not a couch potato that just does this once in a while on on the weekends. I have the right equipment and I know how to use it properly and have used it for many years.

All I wanted to convey is that this episode reminds us how important it is to be prepared for even the best laid plans can go wrong. Even the simplest trips can end up like this. And this was a simple trip for just a kid friendly 3 20' drops rappel a three hour tour. Not the remote hikes with high risk of injury trips that we all have done with caving climbing and backpacking gear and take your own water I have done in the past for work. It is up to us to stack the odds in our favor. The only reason that I am hear on my soap box is that I was prepared. I did not have to cut my arm off did not have to watch my kids die of dehydration of starvation, a rock fall, injury or hypothermia. Yes I made a mistake. A big one. I made a right when I should have made a left. went up the wrong drainage. But it is what we can learn from it that it is important not Monday morning quarterbacking.

[jman]

Jason,

As you well know, a big part of canyoneering is learning from the mistakes of others and not repeating them. I think we are all glad that you and your kids are safe. Definitely a scary situation - especially not being in contact with your boys for 2 days!! And sometimes we can pretty insulting and downright rude, especially to beginners as we learn of these accidents/situations/rescues. In just the last two years alone has seen a sizeable increase in rescues!

People are going in ill-prepared; making big navigation errors; being hasty in planning; rushing to do canyons when a little more time should be spent on checking gear and maps and routes; not preparing for contingencies (IE bringing a headlamp should always be a no-brainer regardless of the canyon and length); not having back-up plans (IE "if we get stuck in this canyon - who will call SAR and let them know which canyon we are in"), etc. And that results in a black-eye on the canyoneering community, with access to canyons being restricted, permit systems being instituted, and other notions inhibiting access.

ANYWAYS, If I may solicit my advice to you in reference to the above and that would be to do a full write-up (no details spared) and allow Shane (www.climb-utah.com (http://www.climb-utah.com)) and Tom (www.canyoneeringusa.com (http://www.canyoneeringusa.com)) to host it or at least reference it on their website. That way the community benefits (and hopefully, hopefully, others can avoid that mistake in navigation, etc.) as well as getting your side out without the media editing it. ;)

I would hope Tom or Shane wouldn't have any objections to it?

Well, something to think about.

[Wasatch]

This dude's navagation skills SUCK!, and he knows nothing about canyoneering. The way he goes about in the interviews is a joke. Look at all those abrasions on his arms, he and his kids should never go on another canyoneering trip together again.

[Caverknight]

Yep that is where I was.

[Caverknight]

No objections. This is what I would like to do. They can contact me directly and I can give them them what every they want.

[ratagonia]

I hate to be an ass, but based on the huge number of grammatical errors it seems Jason has very little attention to detail.

Mr. Zamp is not from Utah, so he does not realize that aufull spelling and grandma are well-respected up here as a sign of bro-ness, and not being a sheeple to the East-coast environmental elitists!

Thom.

[Iceaxe]

No objections. This is what I would like to do. They can contact me directly and I can give them them what every they want.

I have sent you a Private message, check your IN box.

Shane Burrows
Climb-Utah.com
http://Climb-Utah.com

[Scott P]

What more could I do? I had enough food for 2 days for 3 people for a 3-5 hours hike. Yes I messed up but again I had back up plans self rescue and was prepared as best as I could do. I have put on mines/cave gates all over the west that where a lot more remote than this. I have hiked up mountains with no trails, scree, cliffs with no injury's I do not like to take chances. I use a rope if I can. I do not like exposer. I have been underground for days at a time. I am not a couch potato that just does this once in a while on on the weekends. I have the right equipment and I know how to use it properly and have used it for many years.

Hi Caverknight.

In response to your question of "What could I do?", the only thing would be to navigate better. That said, I am very glad that you and your children are safe. A lot of us have made some serious mistakes in the backcountry and you are not alone. Thanks for providing your side of the story/report.

Anyway, if you were starting at the Sandthrax campsite and using Tom's beta, it seems only more confusing of how confusing as to what happened and how the ridges between Santhrax/Leprechaun and Blarney/Leprechaun to end up in Sandthrax.:ne_nau:

http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/images/stories/Maps/NorthWash/300bleprechaun.jpg

The ridge between Leprechaun and Blarney is actually quite a ways up the route from the Santhrax campsite. Tom's beta never ascended the ridge between Leprechaun and Blarney. To get to the East Fork of Lep, it ascends the ridge between Leprechaun and Sandthrax. There is another alternate route on his map that goes up Leprechaun and exists quite a bit up canyon, but no marked route on the ridge between Lep and Blarney. Also, if you indeed did confuse the two ridges, and wanted to routefind up the ridge between Lep and Blarney, you would have to cross around the West and Middle Forks first.

Would it be accurate to say that the intended route was the purple line and the actually route was the green line?

72698

Just trying to put the story of what happened together. As mentioned, I'm very glad that you are safe.

[mzamp]

Mr. Zamp is not from Utah, so he does not realize that aufull spelling and grandma are well-respected up here as a sign of bro-ness, and not being a sheeple to the East-coast environmental elitists!

Thom.
LOL! Spelling errors are one thing. I am one of the worlds worst spellers, and I would hate to admit how many times it took me to get through Eng102 while crusing through diffyQ and beyond. But for goodness sake pre-read what you typed before you hit post. Because even an illiterate like myself felt nauseous reading that.

What was the self-rescue plan? Did it fail? I would like to think you would want to know how he misinterpreted your beta. At least I would.

[Caverknight]

Yup that is what happened i was comparing toms map to another may in a guild book and was off by one ridge.

[jumar]

Glad you guys are okay. It's easy to criticize from the comfort of my cubicle here at work. We all make mistakes sometimes. But one thing that I always do is to have two competent 'leaders'. If i drop down into something, and run into trouble I have another one up top to aid in self rescue or go for help. Especially if I have my kids. I personally wouldn't even do Leprechaun with just me and two kids, in case I got injured and they're left without someone that knows what they're doing. This goes for caves, canyons etc.

[Iceaxe]

Yup that is what happened i was comparing toms map to another may in a guild book and was off by one ridge.

My beta shows an access route between Barney and Leprechaun.

I always warn people to find someone's beta you like and stick with it when you can. Mixing and matching beta has resulted in several rescues I know of. One being in Heaps. It's alright to review all available beta. But when you set out pick one version and stick with it.


Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[Mountaineer]

I personally wouldn't even do Leprechaun with just me and two kids, in case I got injured and they're left without someone that knows what they're doing. This goes for caves, canyons etc.



Good advice. Although I would say it also depends on the minor. I would take my then 13 year old son over another adult. His tech skills, canyon experience, and cognitive thought process match or exceed many adults.

[Iceaxe]

I personally wouldn't even do Leprechaun with just me and two kids,

Been there... done that.... multiple times. :stud:

The first time through Leprechaun my daughter was 5. Second time I took both kids when they were 5 and 7. Done it a few more times since than along with numerous other canyons (Subway, Quandary Direct, Keyhole, Echo, Dragon Fly, Zero-G are just a few that come to mind). Honestly I consider the car ride down on highway 6 to be more dangerous than East Fork of Leprechaun.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with taking young kids through technical canyons by myself. My only condition is I usually only take kids through technical slots I have done previously so I know the details. I will skip this requirement if the beta is provided by certain trusted individuals,

[Scott P]

I personally wouldn't even do Leprechaun with just me and two kids, in case I got injured and they're left without someone that knows what they're doing. This goes for caves, canyons etc.


Good advice. Although I would say it also depends on the minor. I would take my then 13 year old son over another adult. His tech skills, canyon experience, and cognitive thought process match or exceed many adults.


I see absolutely nothing wrong with taking young kids through technical canyons by myself.

I do worry if I got hurt, but now that my son is older I think he could get through without me. Still, I've never gone without another adult yet.

I guess the biggest question to ask is "if I get hurt, can I send the kid(s) for help without me"? If the answer is no, I'd worry.

More than age, if there aren't more adults along, they should be able to read a map and to rappel on their own, if necessary. Hopefully that never happens.

I guess I might make an exception if it was a day trip and someone was waiting for me that knew where we were.

[deagol]

...... people who saw a video or pictures on Facebook and thought that canyoneering looked "sick" or "tight".
LNT


but it IS tight...:nod:

[Slot Machine]

Thanks for stopping by and sharing caverknight! Huge props to you!

[Byron]

Yeah Caverknight, don't worry about it...you just had a major brain fart. Anyone busting you chops over this is just being a jerk. We've all done it... an honest, stupid mistake. Count your lucky stars that it all worked out OK. And dude, brush up on your map reading skills!!!

[forum8fox]

For the record no one has died in Sandthrax to my knowledge, hell no one has even been seriously injured. That bolt could have an effect in changing that for sure, who the hell is bolting canyons? Also for your record, there are much harder and more committing canyons than Sandthrax of which most people should really avoid. Luckily they are harder to find and reside in a block of hard canyons not easily mistaken for something easy. For all the people worried about access, it's not the people who intentionally go into these canyons you have to worry about so much (for the most part...) it's the hiking crowd that you have to worry about. Someone ought to etch a skull and cross bones where the bolt is upon removal (only semi joking, something should be done in the form of a small warning at the head, nothing like the black hole mind you). To think I felt funny about putting all those warnings and disclaimers on that video... I guess to an extent it's like proximity flying, when you see the pro's do it you can think it looks fun and easy but when you do your homework you realize its only from a ton of experience that these people make it look so easy (not that what happened this time has anything to do with that but I figured it's worth mentioning to any future prospectives).

[Brian in SLC]

Thanks for sharing your story, Caverknight!

Hmmm...as one who's not bolt averse....yeah, that bolt at the head of the canyon...hmmm. I'm not big into "requiring" the high skill start by either adding or removing hardware, but, it is a bit of a siren call to have a bolt folks can rappel into the canyon from. Yank that thing.

I dunno. As someone who did the East Fork of Lep sight unseen with a partner who also hadn't been there...I guess I would have balked at descending a canyon that didn't match the info we had. But, its also easy to have your head down and go. Sot canyons requiring a rope descent, even as just back ups for down climbs...makes me think an able partner is fairly required, or, the ability to anchor and ascend if something doesn't smell right especially if you're essentially solo. Or, you're the gun for some lessor skilled folk.

Lessons learned. Glad it wasn't more serious.

Part of me winces every time I hear there's been a rescue. But, also...I'll have to admit...part of me thinks that its ok folks are out there enjoying the outdoors, too. And, some amount of rescue will come with that. And that's...ok.

Cheers and be safe!

[Iceaxe]

With or without the bolt, one problem with Sandthrax is it has a pretty easy and inviting start. A simple rappel, a little downclimbing through some beautiful swirling sandstone, a little high stemming but nothing much..... and then you suddenly pass the point of no return and the canyon gets mean and ugly is a real hurry. The slot kinda sucks you in and if you are not prepared you quickly find yourself in over your head.

The second problem with Sandthrax is the head of the slot is located 10 minutes from the bedroom of canyoneering paradise.

[Iceaxe]

Someone ought to etch a skull and cross bones where the bolt is upon removal (only semi joking, something should be done in the form of a small warning at the head, nothing like the black hole mind you).

For the record, signage like you mention was recently installed in the Squeeze Fork of Bluejohn Canyon because of the high number of Search and Rescues.

72706

72707

FWIW: The picture was stolen from the CAC website and the signage was part of their recent service project (http://www.americancanyoneers.org/robbers-roost-report/).

[SRG]

Jason,
Glad you and your kids are alive. Thanks to the all volunteer Wayne County SAR, those people are superheros.

When navigating the approach of a canyon for my fist time, I try to scour the internet for a picture of the first rappel or the head of the canyon. I then print out that picture and write in big letters on it "This is the headwall of _______ Canyon". This really helps to confirm where I am at before committing.

[n00basaurus_rex]

When navigating the approach of a canyon for my fist time, I try to scour the internet for a picture of the first rappel or the head of the canyon. I then print out that picture and write in big letters on it "This is the headwall of _______ Canyon".

Or you could just use a GPS.

[Caverknight]

I did that. I think after poring over what I did wrong. (Getting down the wrong canyon) I think that the flaw was that I was looking at two much guide book maps and photos and ultimately though I was starting at a different place than what I was at. I was in the campground I went up the wrong drainage. Followed too many "you are looking for" . . . this the drop is this long here is a pic that look like they same as everywhere else.

I do not usually take my boys to some where that I have not been but Leprechaun is known to be friendly. I have had friends go down and tell me about it. All the beta tells me that it was ok. This is why I choose this place. low flash flood potential, only three short drops a easy hike back by lunch. Easy access. another fun hike right next door. A easy week for spring break. :facepalm1:

[mzamp]

Forcing the map or beta to fit the landscape is a very common mistake in navigation. On my maps that I print out for travel, I will mark easily identifiable landmarks, the distances between them, and the altitude of them. That also makes for easier reading on the go. Being familiar with the time to travel distances on different terrains is also beneficial. I find myself automatically pace counting, and this helps me stay on track. Walk with the map in hand or readily available and check your progress often. It is much easier keep track of where you are on the map rather then to try and figure out where you think you are.

Or you could do like Rex and use a GPS. I find it part of the fun of canyoneering NOT to use one. YMMV.

Glad everyone made it out safe and sorry if I was too judgmental earlier.

[SRG]

Or you could just use a GPS.
My buddy moved to Denver and used a GPS device in his car to navigate. After six months of living there he still didn't know his way around the city AT ALL, I mean we'd go out and he'd have no idea where he was at any given time.
It's because instead of navigating by becoming orientated with his surroundings, he followed dots on a glowing screen for six months.
What if the GPS fails?


I did that. I think after poring over what I did wrong...
I didn't mean to place blame or to imply that failing to bring a picture was a big part of what you did wrong.
I made the comment because when reading these threads people are (hopefully) thinking "how can I avoid this happening to me next time I go out?" and I thought it was a worthwhile suggestion because in the past, for me, pulling out a picture and locating certain cracks or bushes or fallen rocks or even finding the exact spot where the picture was taken, has been very helpful for confirming my whereabouts.

[Taylor]

A comment about SAR and GPS but first I also want to wish Jason and his boys well and congratulations for surviving the ordeal.

Regarding SAR, the idea that counties or teams are being overworked or responding to too many rescues is not coming from the team members, I can almost guarantee. We are either willing volunteers or paid law enforcement. Both groups know exactly what is being committed to when joining. For myself and those I have met, its very rewarding (I'll even say fun) to get to use our training, gear and experience to help people. One of my favorite quotes from WFR: "we don't want anyone to get hurt, we just want to be there when they do."

Regarding GPS, It is baffling to me that anyone ever gets lost anymore. There is so much info available about these places we go, so many tools available, it is inexcusable to end up somewhere unintended. GPS apps are on all smart phones and dedicated units are inexpensive and easy to learn how to operate. I understand the attitude or idea that it's more fun/challenging to use a map and compass but not the idea that GPS isn't reliable enough as some on here have suggested. Carry some extra damn batteries and put a couple of critical waypoints in there and you'll never be lost again.

Sorry for the rant, I guess.

[TommyBoy]

Regarding GPS, It is baffling to me that anyone ever gets lost anymore. There is so much info available about these places we go, so many tools available, it is inexcusable to end up somewhere unintended. GPS apps are on all smart phones and dedicated units are inexpensive and easy to learn how to operate. I understand the attitude or idea that it's more fun/challenging to use a map and compass but not the idea that GPS isn't reliable enough as some on here have suggested. Carry some extra damn batteries and put a couple of critical waypoints in there and you'll never be lost again.

Sorry for the rant, I guess.

Even with the GPS you can still do the map and compass thing if you want. Just take the GPS with you and turn it on when you think you are at the head of the canyon/point of no return. If you're there well you still got there by map and if you're not there you have saved yourself from a whole lot of trouble.

[Iceaxe]

Regarding SAR, the idea that counties or teams are being overworked or responding to too many rescues is not coming from the team members, I can almost guarantee.

Over worked is not the problem. The problem in the rural counties is funding all the SAR's, and that is directly from the team members and their commander's.



Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[Taylor]

Over worked is not the problem. The problem in the rural counties is funding all the SAR's, and that is directly from the team members and their commander's.

I can see funding being an issue due to the distances they have to travel. Not so much an issue here in SL.

[ratagonia]

Over worked is not the problem. The problem in the rural counties is funding all the SAR's, and that is directly from the team members and their commander's.



Which is not our problem to solve, it is a statewide problem for a state with the population so concentrated in urban centers. We can do symbolic things like make donations, but it is really up to the state of Utah to rework how SAR is funded.

Tom

[ratagonia]

I can see funding being an issue due to the distances they have to travel. Not so much an issue here in SL.

Check this out:

Population of several Utah Counties (2010 census):

Salt Lake: 1,029,655
Utah: 516,564


Garfield: 5,175
Wayne: 2,778


Yikes!

http://www.onlineutah.com/countypopulation.shtml

Tom

[mzamp]

...but not the idea that GPS isn't reliable enough as some on here have suggested. Carry some extra damn batteries and put a couple of critical waypoints in there and you'll never be lost again.


The tools you bring (GPS, map, compass, and belay device for that matter) are only as good as the person using it.

[Scott P]

Over worked is not the problem. The problem in the rural counties is funding all the SAR's, and that is directly from the team members and their commander's.

Agreed. Besides not getting our arses rescued, what else can we be doing? I know they have fundraisers.

All these rescues are giving canyoneers a bad name. By percentage, we probably have one of the highest rescue rates of any outdoor sport out there.


Which is not our problem to solve, it is a statewide problem for a state with the population so concentrated in urban centers.

I don't know; in a way it is our problem to solve. We (canyoneers in general and anyone getting rescued) are part of the problem.

[Caverknight]

I don't think that canyoneers have a high rescue rate. I think that it is the one that the media reports on. The highest "rescues" are lost and stranded people that are just hiking down the trail or 2-5 miles with 1 pt of water and get heat stroke. Whenever a canyoneer or caver gets hurt the media always pick up on it. It place on peoples fears, It is death, being high up or in the dark or trapped or all of the above. That it makes good story that genrates lots of money for the media. I would have not had my door being pounded down by media less than 12 hours if I hadn't my kids with me or if I had just ran out of gas in goblin valley. They never report on any accidents unless it is sensationalized to meet good ratings.

[Scott P]

I don't think that canyoneers have a high rescue rate.

I would have to disagree. Compared to the relatively small percentage of people who do it, the amount of rescues is very high (though "high" can have many definitions). I think many experienced canyoneers would agree with this.

[Caverknight]

Is there anyone that has the total rescues with-in the geographic areas of where canyonneers vs hikers vs atv's vs rock climbing. There are mathematical formulas that someone could apply to see what the rates are total vs capita of person doing it. It would not be 100% accurate but it would be a snap shot.

[Iceaxe]

By percentage, we probably have one of the highest rescue rates of any outdoor sport out there.

I disagree, spend any amount of time on lake Powell and you will soon discover the Park Service is nearly always running multiple rescues at one time, and that is just one example off the top of my head. It's just that canyoneering rescues make for good multimedia news.

I know the majority of "canyoneering" rescues in Zion are really hiker rescues with broken ankles, sprained knees, getting lost. Bo probably has some great insight into Zion rescues if you ask him.

I bet the percentage of canyoneering rescues in Grand County is extremely low compared to others, especially when you add in the ATV accidents.

YMMV

[ratagonia]

Is there anyone that has the total rescues with-in the geographic areas of where canyonneers vs hikers vs atv's vs rock climbing. There are mathematical formulas that someone could apply to see what the rates are total vs capita of person doing it. It would not be 100% accurate but it would be a snap shot.

Where would we get the total number of capita doing each activity? The only people that know are the NSA, and they are reluctant to share...

Tom

[spinesnaper]

Jason

Pathetically, we are all just a small navigational accident from being in a similar situation.

Theoretically, a 5 ounce personal locator beacon activated as soon as you realized your predicament might have brought rescue much sooner.

Clearly you will recover from your situation. However, your boys are young enough that events like this can have a big impact. I want to encourage you to let them talk about the event and consider getting feedback about how the event is affecting them from teachers, coaches,etc. Are they having nightmares or exhibiting other reactions than might suggest that they are not faring as well as you are? If so, you might consider some professional help to assess them for post-traumatic stress disorder. This can be treated but it first needs to be recognized. How is their enthusiasm to go out canyoneering again?

Hope things are well and thanks for posting. Reminds me to be extra careful when I go out to do the Irish canyons.

Ken

[rnelson]

I know a bolt has appeared at the top of Sandthrax, and my raving/biased opinion is that having a bolt there makes it possible for people to say "look, there is a bolt, this must be one of the canyons that people do all the time". We hope to remove the bolt soon; and I would encourage SandThraxers to also remove any webbing they leave at that first rappel as well.

Tom

Amen to this.

[Caverknight]

They are still processing and I am making them talk about it. Erik is the one that is clammed up (as usually.) I get more details everyday. My dear wife is still trying to recover also. Talking to professional help is a good idea and we have talked about that. She knows the risk of what I do but it has never had to call out SAR. I have been on rescues situation that went bad and it killed a community of people physiologically. I do not want this to happen to my wife or boys.

As for doing things out in the wild they will go back. I am very allergic to perfumes, sunscreen, scented deodorants etc. I cannot go to the mall a movie, without getting really sick. When I go to a hiking trail with lots of people I often have to wear a mask to filter outs peoples smelly stuff. This results in us going to areas that are not visited very much. So we will be back out. It is no more dangerous camping then walking down a major city block at night. It is about knowing risks.

[spinesnaper]

As for doing things out in the wild they will go back. I am very allergic to perfumes, sunscreen, scented deodorants etc. I cannot go to the mall a movie, without getting really sick. When I go to a hiking trail with lots of people I often have to wear a mask to filter outs peoples smelly stuff. This results in us going to areas that are not visited very much. So we will be back out. It is no more dangerous camping then walking down a major city block at night. It is about knowing risks.

Hey you are preaching to the choir here. It is just that one does not want one's wilderness privileges to be cut-off by the short hairs by the spouse. I have seen it happen after serious back country events. That means minimizing hiccups. There is no substitute for a crew no matter how competent you and your boys are. Going with a group is very reassuring for loved one's left at home. Also consider investing in a personal locator beacon as I said. Also I would recommend playing down the "danger" aspect of canyoneering. As Tom Jones says, to paraphrase, canyoneering is not an extreme sport. I like to think about it as hiking with an occasional rappel and cold swim thrown in. Avoid dwelling on keeper potholes with the spouse and other esoterica like needing to saw one's arm off in a canyon for example:nono:. There are many very enthusiastic members of this community who also have young children and with a little effort, your kids can have companions and safely enjoy these beautiful canyons at the same time.

Welcome to Bogley

Ken

[lucach]

I know Jason, he used to be a caver in San Diego before he moved to Utah.
He was very passionate about outdoor adventures and I'm glad he keeps up with it, even after the mishap.
He mistakenly went into the wrong canyon... who has not done that before? He just had worse luck than any of us.
Yeah, maybe he should have taken along another adult, but as a father I know how hard it is to find other adventurous people with kids to do stuff with.

BTW, I looked at the descriptions on CanyoneeringUSA.com, it definitely does not say "WARNING: Do not confuse canyon entrances".
And judging by the new fancy web design it may appear those guys have deep pockets... just saying... :-P

[spinesnaper]

I know Jason, he used to be a caver in San Diego before he moved to Utah.
He was very passionate about outdoor adventures and I'm glad he keeps up with it, even after the mishap.
He mistakenly went into the wrong canyon... who has not done that before? He just had worse luck than any of us.
Yeah, maybe he should have taken along another adult, but as a father I know how hard it is to find other adventurous people with kids to do stuff with.

BTW, I looked at the descriptions on CanyoneeringUSA.com, it definitely does not say "WARNING: Do not confuse canyon entrances".
And judging by the new fancy web design it may appear those guys have deep pockets... just saying... :-P

That may be true, however, confusing one Irish canyon for another is a well documented phenomena out there. Maybe that is why they are called Irish canyons-easy to confuse one for another and enter the wrong draw. Irish as in The Flying Irishman: Wrong Way Corrigan. Tom Jones and Climb-Utah definitely warn regarding navigation for the Leprechaun forks. Shane has on the site a detailed story about a 2002 canyoneering group that incorrectly entered the wrong fork of Leprechaun and had to be rescued including one of the party sustained a skull fracture trying to climb out. So the community is on notice that this can occur.

The whole issue of entering the wrong canyon is also well understood and the reason that navigation skills are always emphasized in my opinion. There is also a well documented history of how solo canyoneer travel can go wrong.

I was not even going to address the issue that one adult and two young kids basically does not add up to two competent partners. I think most of the posters here have also refrained from that. Since you have raised it, I would agree that looking after young children has to be more distracting that being on one's own.

It pays to know where you are and have other competent adults with you in these canyons.

Ken

[Scott P]

I know Jason, he used to be a caver in San Diego before he moved to Utah.
He was very passionate about outdoor adventures and I'm glad he keeps up with it, even after the mishap.
He mistakenly went into the wrong canyon... who has not done that before? He just had worse luck than any of us.
Yeah, maybe he should have taken along another adult, but as a father I know how hard it is to find other adventurous people with kids to do stuff with.

BTW, I looked at the descriptions on CanyoneeringUSA.com (http://canyoneeringusa.com/), it definitely does not say "WARNING: Do not confuse canyon entrances".
And judging by the new fancy web design it may appear those guys have deep pockets... just saying... :-P

Gee Tom (Jones); I didn't realize that you were so rich. Next time we go canyoneering, can you share some of those "deep pockets" with us? :mrgreen:


"WARNING: Do not confuse canyon entrances".

OK, so it doesn't say exactly that, but it does say the following:

Navigation is somewhat difficult, and it is important to get into the correct fork. The Main and West Forks look pretty similar. Follow the map carefully. Check the description of what the tops of the canyons look like, and if you are in the wrong place, get out.

http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/utah/north-wash/leprechaun-canyon/

Technically though, the warning applies to confusing the various forks of Leprechaun.


He mistakenly went into the wrong canyon... who has not done that before?

Most of us haven't done that before.

Yes, everyone makes mistakes, but to anyone who knows how to read a map, the mistake should have been glaring obvious. So, yes we've all made mistakes (yes; me too-some big ones) and what's done as done. Good judgement comes from experience and experience comes from poor judgement. We've all been there in one way or another.

It seemed to be mostly over (and most of us were actually pretty nice about it), but it seems as though you are blaming the website. Also, the map on that website doesn't show the approach route that he was trying to follow, nor does it describe it.

Once again, here is the map on that website (the approaches are marked with arrows). The purple line (which I drew in) is the one he was trying to follow (according to him). The ridge between Leprechaun and Blarney is never described on the website, which is the route which he said intended to follow and where he thought he was.


http://www.bogley.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=72698&d=1397502617

The route the person intended to follow was never on the website, so how can you blame the website?

[Iceaxe]

I'd be very leery using the above map as the Main Fork is mislabeled. The East Fork is without doubt the main fork in all aspects except difficulty. The East Forks drainage is much great then the other forks combined.

To avoid confusion it is considered appropriate to refer to the three forks as East, Middle and West.

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[Scott P]

I'd be very leery using the above map as the Main Fork is mislabeled. The East Fork is without doubt the main fork in all aspects except difficulty. The East Forks drainage is much great then the other forks combined.

The "Main Fork" could be changed to "Middle Fork" on the map, but that doesn't have anything to do with the navigation on this trip. Either way, if on the intended route, you would have to skirt around the other forks before reaching the East Fork.


To avoid confusion it is considered appropriate to refer to the three forks as East, Middle and West.

If so, you both could change your maps (though they seem self explanatory to me) and that didn't add to any of the navigational error.

Anyway, I'm still confused as to why would anyone even use the route between Blarney and Leprechaun as the intended route to get to just the East Fork? It would be much easier and faster to use the eastside approach and the ridge between Leprechaun and Santhrax (which confusingly was the route that was actually used).

Your map doesn't show the ridge between Blarney and Leprechaun being used either.

Your and Tom's map both use the either the east side entrance ridge between Leprechaun and Sandthrax, or the routes go up Leprechaun nearly a mile before exiting the canyon and following the rim around to the various forks. Neither map shows the ridge between Blarney and Leprechaun being used as the route to access the canyon, but that's what route he thought he was on. :ne_nau: None of the maps show accessing the canyons from the ridge between Blarney and Leprechaun.

http://climb-utah.com/Powell/Maps/LeprechaunMap.JPG

[Caverknight]

I do not want this to turn into if he had only. . . .. or the websites and books are flawed. Many people have been in this area and not gotten lost some have gotten lost I really got lost. I want people to learn from this what I did wrong what I did right. How many times have everyone of "us" have done something that was against the "rules". like gone hiking by ourselves, done a climb up or down that if we fail it would result in injury, (anything over 5' can do that) not wear a helmet while climbing or belaying? Jumping off a ledge that is a bit too high. Not having fresh gear ever time we go out. Not have the standard 24 kit when hiking the "training route" or the "easy trail". Need I go on?


I knew that these canyons were confusing and people had gotten down the wrong ones. It is no big secret that this has happened in the past. This is not any website or books fault!

I do not place blame on anyone but myself. I am the one that miss navigated. I was comparing the map with description in a book and All I can say is duh on me. My navigation was bad but we have all gotten "misplaced" before.

This was not the first time my kids have gone out. They go outdoor more than most. I would not take them to dangerous places knowingly.

For lack of a better term leprechaun is a kids friendly place safer than many places in the world. It has low flash flood potential It is short it has only a few drops with easy anchors and only a few miles long. It is known for being kid friendly and is a good place to take your kids.

Do we all need 4-5 adult people in every trip like they recommend for safety?

1 to get hurt
1 to stay with the hurt
2-3 to get rescue because you should not hike alone.

[Scott P]

I do not place blame on anyone but myself.

Yes, Caverknight, I respect you for that (most of us have made mistakes in canyons as well). It seems as if Lucach was putting some of the blame on the website, or claiming that there was no warning.


Do we all need 4-5 adult people in every trip like they recommend for safety?
Nah, just at least two if there are kids along and they can't get out by themselves if an emergency arises (if they can navigate themselves; no need for an extra adult). At least that's my own opinion.

PS, I do get flack for taking my kids in some places as well.

[Iceaxe]

Your map doesn't show the ridge between Blarney and Leprechaun being used either.

You better look at my map again.... that red line with the UP arrow to the left of west fork is an up access that is pretty fun.

If you read my beta you will also note the beta clears up the East Fork (aka Right Fork) issue. My maps are made to be used with the written description. Using only the map is not a great idea.

http://climb-utah.com/Powell/Maps/LeprechaunMap.JPG

[Scott P]

You better look at my map again.... that red line with the UP arrow to the left of west fork is an up access that is pretty fun.

That's the route I was speaking of here, and is a fun route:

or the routes go up Leprechaun nearly a mile before exiting the canyon and following the rim around to the various forks.

I've already done that route twice. Your, Tom's, and Kelsey's route all show that route as starting well up the Leprechaun drainage (almost a mile) rather than following the ridge up from the highway between the two canyons. If you want the East Fork via that route, you know that you should cross the other drainage first. Also, if you are looking for that route, since it starts well up the drainage, even if you were lost and in the wrong drainage (say Sandthrax or Blarney), it would be evident fairly early.

[ratagonia]

That's the route I was speaking of here, and is a fun route:

or the routes go up Leprechaun nearly a mile before exiting the canyon and following the rim around to the various forks.

I've already done that route twice. Your, Tom's, and Kelsey's route all show that route as starting well up the Leprechaun drainage (almost a mile) rather than following the ridge up from the highway between the two canyons. If you want the East Fork via that route, you know that you should cross the other drainage first. Also, if you are looking for that route, since it starts well up the drainage, even if you were lost and in the wrong drainage (say Sandthrax or Blarney), it would be evident fairly early.

Not sure why this horse continues to be beaten... it's dead, Jim.

Tom

[lucach]

it seems as though you are blaming the website


I know Tom Jones, he is a wonderful guy that has done and keeps doing wonderful things for the community... I do really wish he had deep pockets! Guys like him deserve it.
I also know Jason, he is a good guy that will take responsibility for his mistakes and will ever only have good words for free sites like CanyoneeringUSA.

I was playing with the fact this is America, the land where people never takes responsibility for their own mistakes and gratuitously sue others.
It is also the land where everyone openly criticize the mistakes of others while hiding all their (equally stupid) mistakes. Let's face the truth, shall we?
Those that say "I never went down the wrong canyon" or "I never made a mistake" is probably because you've always done easy stuff or following someone else.
If you are really as hardcore as you think you are or had really done some serious stuff you would know shit happens... shit happens all the time!
I went down the wrong turn or made mistakes MANY times, mostly with minimal consequences. Jason just had worst luck than I ever did. That's all.

Jason, if you read this, I will tell you about one of the guys that has been posting critic statements about you...
I am not going to tell you his name, he is considered by many as an expert, and I do not want to ruin his reputation...
I have seen this guy bolt 100ft drops with one single bolt and have newbies rappel down it, claiming "he opened the canyon" (when it had already been descended).
I have seen this guy go around advising newbies to do a dangerous toboggan (50% of the time people gets injured) telling them "you will be just fine".
You will never hear about any of the mishaps on any of his trips (he himself had to be rescued in Heaps) because has all the witnesses take an oath of silence.
But whenever he finds another group in distress he will give them a Samsplint and claim he rescued them (even when victim extracted by helicopter within an hour).

Jason, I ask you to just ignore all the critiques from hypocrites like this guy...you made a simple mistake like many of us, just had worse luck.
Kudos to you, to Tom Jones and to all the cool guys who have the courage to make their mistakes public so others can learn from them!

[mzamp]

If you read my beta you will also note the beta clears up the East Fork (aka Right Fork) issue. My maps are made to be used with the written description. Using only the map is not a great idea.

I want to be a beta master like you :hail2thechief:, but unfortunately I am dyslexic and got it reversed. :mrgreen:


Those that say "I never went down the wrong canyon" ...

Nope - never has happened. And yes I lead almost all my trips and have done many canyons with extreme navigation. Now making mistakes is another story all together. :crazy:

[Scott P]

I know Tom Jones, he is a wonderful guy that has done and keeps doing wonderful things for the community... I do really wish he had deep pockets! Guys like him deserve it.

I guess some of the message was missed that was meant to be tongue in cheek. It did sound like some blame was being put on the website/beta, but now that you explain more, it makes more sense. I didn't know you were joking about the deep pocket thing and that you knew Tom. I really misunderstood your post.

I hope that you see that my only intention was to defend the beta rather than to attack anyone.


Those that say "I never went down the wrong canyon" or "I never made a mistake" is probably because you've always done easy stuff or following someone else.

I think everyone makes mistakes, especially early on. Personally, I've never went down the wrong canyon, at least not unintentionally, but I know we made some big mistakes. To my disdain, some of them were talked about by others for years or decades afterward.

Thanks for clarifying what you meant.

Those are some interesting stories about the other person, but thanks for not calling him out on the forum. I don't know who it is and don't care to.

[Mountaineer]

...Kudos ...to all the cool guys who have the courage to make their mistakes public so others can learn from them!

Yes, agree. Kudos to those that post up what they learn, ask questions, and even comment. Ironically you learn even more when you ask the question and get "poked" at a bit. Better to be critiqued, then not managing the risk when you are in the canyon properly.

[Slot Machine]

Those are some interesting stories about the other person, but thanks for not calling him out on the forum. I don't know who it is and don't care to.

*disgusted, throws popcorn at computer monitor*

:popcorn:

[Iceaxe]

Play in the canyons long enough and sooner or later you'll find its your turn in the barrel.

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[ratagonia]

Sure am glad I NEVER make mistakes like that (other than MIDDLE LEP for West Lep, but that was a while ago).

Instead, I make mistakes like this:

http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/adventure-dead-eye-dick-zion-national-park-canyoneering-4-17-2014/ (http://canyoncollective.com/threads/ded-zion-gps-waylaid-pts-bolts-removed.19323/)

Tom