BLM controversy in Southern Utah

[ratagonia]

And just to be clear, they could have done a controlled burn with permission from the adjacent landowner (the BLM) and fire control at their ranch boundary. I'm pretty sure they had done at least several of these before.

It is kinda duplicitous to say "Federal Prosecutors said..." That's not really the point. The point is that the Feds have evidence to prove those assertions, testimony from neutral persons.

Judge Michael Hogan is controversial as he is ultra-ultra conservative, and has had decisions like this overturned before. The charge carries a mandatory minimum, which he did not follow. Appeal was made. Mandatory means mandatory.

Original sentencing was to three months and one year. Which they served. The resentencing was to five-year terms, so they will have to serve out the REST of their terms. ie, four years for the one, four years 9 months for the other ---- less time for good behaviour (do they do that in the Fed system??).

-----------------

I am not interested in fighting out this case on Bogley. But I do want to point out that several different versions of the "facts" are available out there, and only one of them is factually correct. I don't think "youse guyz" need to make up facts to make your case... the true facts are troubling enough from YOUR viewpoint. From my viewpoint, not so much.

Tom :moses:

[Scott P]

The point is that the Feds have evidence to prove those assertions, testimony from neutral persons.

Actually, the witness testimony included their own family members. From the court records:

Witnesses at trial, including a relative of the Hammonds, testified the arson occurred shortly after Steven Hammond and his hunting party illegally slaughtered several deer on BLM property. Jurors were told that Steven Hammond handed out ‘Strike Anywhere’ matches with instructions that they be lit and dropped on the ground because they were going to ‘light up the whole country on fire.’ One witness testified that he barely escaped the eight to ten foot high flames caused by the arson. The fire consumed 139 acres of public land and destroyed all evidence of the game violations. After committing the arson, Steven Hammond called the BLM office in Burns, Oregon and claimed the fire was started on Hammond property to burn off invasive species and had inadvertently burned onto public lands. Dwight and Steven Hammond told one of their relatives to keep his mouth shut and that nobody needed to know about the fire.

[Chivas]

Actually, the witness testimony included their own family members. From the court records:

Witnesses at trial, including a relative of the Hammonds, testified the arson occurred shortly after Steven Hammond and his hunting party illegally slaughtered several deer on BLM property. Jurors were told that Steven Hammond handed out ‘Strike Anywhere’ matches with instructions that they be lit and dropped on the ground because they were going to ‘light up the whole country on fire.’ One witness testified that he barely escaped the eight to ten foot high flames caused by the arson. The fire consumed 139 acres of public land and destroyed all evidence of the game violations. After committing the arson, Steven Hammond called the BLM office in Burns, Oregon and claimed the fire was started on Hammond property to burn off invasive species and had inadvertently burned onto public lands. Dwight and Steven Hammond told one of their relatives to keep his mouth shut and that nobody needed to know about the fire.


Regardless, they already served time for this: the five-year mandatory sentence is for "terrorism". Are these men guilty of arson and poaching? Looks like it. Terrorism? If these men are terrorists, then what are ISIS? Reavers?

[Glenn]

And so it ends with blood.
http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/26/us/oregon-wildlife-refuge-siege-arrests/index.html

(CNN)Ammon Bundy, leader of the armed protesters who took over a federal wildlife refuge in Oregon, was arrested and one of his followers killed in a highway traffic stop Tuesday.

A law enforcement official told CNN that authorities pulled over two vehicles. Everyone obeyed orders to surrender except two people: LaVoy Finicum and Bundy's brother, Ryan Bundy, the official said.



Shots were fired, but it's not known who fired first, the official said. Ryan Bundy was injured, but Finicum died, the official added.
Finicum was among the most outspoken of the occupiers who took over the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge near Burns on January 2 to protest federal land policies.
Earlier this month, he said he'd rather be killed than arrested.
"Absolutely ... I have no intention of spending any of my days in a concrete box," he told NBC News (http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/oregon-occupier-lavoy-finicum-warns-fbi-he-d-take-death-n491056). "There are things more important than your life and freedom is one of them," he said. "I'm prepared to defend freedom."
All together, police arrested seven people: five in the traffic stop on Highway 395 with Ammon Bundy; and two others in Burns.
All seven arrested face a federal felony charge relating to their occupation of the refuge: conspiracy to impede officers of the United States from discharging their official duties through the use of force, intimidation or threats, authorities said.
"It appears that America was fired upon by our government. One of liberty's finest patriots is fallen. He will not go silent into eternity," the occupiers said on the Bundy Ranch Facebook page (https://www.facebook.com/bundyranch/photos/a.624209630989182.1073741827.623383454405133/951182274958581/?type=3&theater).
Those arrested are: Ammon Bundy, Ryan Bundy, Brian Cavalier, Shawna Cox and Ryan Waylen Payne.
The other two are: Joseph Donald O'Shaughnessy and Peter Santilli.
"I have some sons and other people there trying to protect our rights and liberties and freedoms, and now we've got one killed, and all I can say is, he's sacrificed for a good purpose," Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy told the Los Angeles Times when informed of his sons' arrests.

[Sombeech]

Shots were fired, but it's not known who fired first,


I could take a wild guess.

The Ranchers were not promoting a violent outcome. It's been a month with their "occupation", invasion, or campout, whatever you call it. And this is the first bloodshed.

You've gotta ask yourself, who was losing their patience? Are the Ranchers sick and tired of being there, or is the Law Enforcement sick and tired of being there?

[stefan]

here's what the Oregonian is reporting

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/01/militant_shot_and_killed_while.html#incart_maj-story-1

[stefan]

FBI released video


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjl1hefqqWI


(washington post: While the video is low-quality and leaves room for interpretation, FBI spokesman Greg Bretzing said the officers who fired at LaVoy Finicum believed he made two moves with his right hand to reach toward the loaded 9mm semiautomatic handgun inside his jacket.

Special Agent Greg Bretzing's comments - http://flashalertbend.net/?alert=1

[Sombeech]

Wow, they had a drone on him and everything. I must have missed the invasion of privacy outrage aimed at Obama. Maybe I scrolled right past it.

[ratagonia]

Wow, they had a drone on him and everything. I must have missed the invasion of privacy outrage aimed at Obama. Maybe I scrolled right past it.

Pretty thorough analysis here: http://bearingarms.com/lavoy-finicum-murdered-forced-oregon-police-shoot/

Tom

[Iceaxe]

Boom! This is a huge setback for the Fed's.

Jury refuses to convict 4 in Nevada ranch standoff retrial
http://www.ksl.com/index.php?sid=45510596&nid=151

[Scott P]

Boom! This is a huge setback for the Fed's.

Jury refuses to convict 4 in Nevada ranch standoff retrial
http://www.ksl.com/index.php?sid=45510596&nid=151

So, you have changed your tune?

There is no controversy. ... The cattle rancher Bundy is nothing but a thief stealing over one million dollars from you and me by not paying his federal grazing fees. He should be in prison and his cattle sold at auction to pay for his past due bills.

[Iceaxe]

How did I change my tune? Yesterdays verdict was a huge setback for the Feds, plain and simple. That is nothing but a statement of fact.

[Iceaxe]

Cliven Bundy emerges free, defiant after Nevada case tossed

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?sid=46232602&nid=157

[rich67]

Federal prosecutors overstepped their boundaries in this case, plain and simple. The quote at the bottom of the article says it all.."violent and racist anti-government movement"... what a joke, and THAT'S what the environmentalists want you to believe. The federal government has been overstepping boundaries for decades, without any checks and balances. Yes, there were some militia and whacks at the demonstration, but in the end it falls back on how the feds handled this whole incident. Everyone in this country is entitled to due process, something that was taken away from Bundy. We should all be very scared of how the federal government oversteps their boundaries at the desire to promote a political agenda. I am a strong supporter of local law enforcement and city and county prosecutors, but when I see some of the stuff the federal government gets away with, it makes me realize they certainly don't play by the same rules, and if you are in their crosshairs...look out. I am actually glad to see a judge had the presence of mind to hold the prosecutors accountable for a change. For him to chastise them in the manner he did, there were some glaringly prejudiced issues that arose...things that may have been overlooked in decades past.

[Sombeech]

Wow I've almost completely forgotten about this. I thought that was the guy they shot and killed

[Brian in SLC]

Federal prosecutors overstepped their boundaries in this case, plain and simple. The quote at the bottom of the article says it all.."violent and racist anti-government movement"... what a joke, and THAT'S what the environmentalists want you to believe. The federal government has been overstepping boundaries for decades, without any checks and balances.

What environmentalists?

BLM was attempting to enforce the rules on land they manage...? How's that over stepping?

BLM has tons of checks and balances...not sure what you're talking about.

This thing could gone super sideways...ala Waco. Thank goodness a vehicle didn't backfire...

Fugly situation to be sure.

Isn't there still a new monument down that way....? Eeek.

Unfriendly folks at best.

[Scott P]

What environmentalists?

BLM was attempting to enforce the rules on land they manage...? How's that over stepping?

It shouldn't be forgotten that environmentalist DeChristopher got two years in Federal prison for bidding on oil leases he never intended to pay. What Bundy did was far worse. The Fed are just as tough, or tougher on environmentalists than anyone else.

[oldno7]

What environmentalists?

BLM was attempting to enforce the rules on land they manage...? How's that over stepping?

BLM has tons of checks and balances...not sure what you're talking about.

This thing could gone super sideways...ala Waco. Thank goodness a vehicle didn't backfire...

Fugly situation to be sure.

Isn't there still a new monument down that way....? Eeek.

Unfriendly folks at best.

Those checks and balances were broken, ala dan love...
Court records showed that the blm had snipers positioned above the bundy ranch days prior to the standoff.

I won't jump on the bundy bandwagon, I believe they were wrong on the grazing issue but completely justified in the standoff.
the blm has no right being in the armed military business, imo.

[Brian in SLC]

Those checks and balances were broken, ala dan love...
Court records showed that the blm had snipers positioned above the bundy ranch days prior to the standoff.

I won't jump on the bundy bandwagon, I believe they were wrong on the grazing issue but completely justified in the standoff.
the blm has no right being in the armed military business, imo.

Well...not that broken...Love was fired. Just took a while before those checks and balances caught up with him...

BLM law enforcement...I'll have to say I've heard some pretty grim stories...(and a funny one from an Idaho State Park manager who busted a BLM guy on "his" turf). My personal experience with them has been very good.

Just like game warden, not a job I'd want. Lotta whackos out there on public land...

[Scott P]

Somewhat related:

I come from a long line of farmers and ranchers, but it does seem that some of them get off easy when it comes to following rules that others have to follow. Obviously farming/ranching is one of the most important, or perhaps the most important of all industries; but it does seem that some of them are held to a lower standard.

On my last construction project, a rancher was caught but not punished for intentionally releasing concrete waste into the nearby creek. If it the construction company that did it, heads would fly. Construction companies are fined big time for being out compliance with water quality laws.

In the county I live in, a ranch hand drove a 15 ton tractor on a bridge rated to and clearly posted with a capacity of 3 tons. He didn't quite make it.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-7jjOmLZcWAo/VYeA9iv5nUI/AAAAAAAAI2k/X_pXMs3Ft0Y/s1600/20150416_152934.jpg
https://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/ubmedia.biz/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/3/07/307350fe-fd84-11e3-91e9-0019bb2963f4/53aca47d5fe95.image.jpg

The county had to wait for four years in order to get the taxpayer funds to repair the bridge, which is finally planned to be fixed since funds have finally been secured. It is a 1.5 hour detour to cross the river without the bridge. The rancher only had a small fine that is only a drop in the bucket when it comes to repairing the bridge.

Why shouldn't the ranch rather than the taxpayers pay for the damage to the bridge? :ne_nau:

[oldno7]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-7jjOmLZcWAo/VYeA9iv5nUI/AAAAAAAAI2k/X_pXMs3Ft0Y/s1600/20150416_152934.jpg
https://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/ubmedia.biz/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/3/07/307350fe-fd84-11e3-91e9-0019bb2963f4/53aca47d5fe95.image.jpg


Why shouldn't the ranch rather than the taxpayers pay for the damage to the bridge? :ne_nau:

The rancher should be responsible for the costs involved in damaging property.

I would say, overall, that the many ranchers I know are great stewards of the land, they can't afford not to be.

[Sombeech]

Update
https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/jan/8/judge-throws-out-case-against-bundys-bars-retrial/

Judge throws out case against Bundys, bars retrial with stunning rebuke to federal prosecutors



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