Rope Bags available tomorrow

[harness man]

We have been building these for canyon buddies in Vegas for a while.71525
website opens tomorrow. Link http://www.canyonwerks.com

[Kuya]

Awesome. Nice to konw that we have other options now. Do these float when full of rope?

[harness man]

Yes, the sides are filled with slabs of closed cell flotation foam. We matched the amount of flotation to the comparable Imlay bags.
The Canyon Werks SMALL is slightly larger in volumne than the Baguette and is shown in the photo stuffed with 120' of Canyon Fire 8.3mm.
The Canyon Werks MEDIUM is slightly larger than the Bargarino and shown stuffed with 200' of Sterling CIV.
The Canyon Werks LARGE is about the same volumne as the Large silo and is shown stuffed with 300' of 8mm Bluewater Canyon Pro with a little room to spare.

[Sandstone Addiction]

Are the medium sized bags really pink? Or is my monitor playing tricks on me?

[harness man]

Right now all sizes are made in both blue/yellow and neon-red/yellow. The neon red looks way pink in this bad photo though!
So far it has been an even split with as many macho guys going for the red as the blue. We like the bright colors to keep the bags from
getting overlooked bobbing around in a dark pothole.

[Wasatch]

Why all the holes? What kind of material are these made of?

[harness man]

Good question. The sides of each bag are pvc (vinyl) coated marine fabric that (that has been perforated) and is lined with vinyl coated mesh, and includes flotation foam sandwiched between the layers. This has proven to be the toughest, most abrasion resistant combination that will contain and protect the rope AND at the same time drain water instantly. Our bag bottoms are also perforated vinyl and have perforated foam to cushion impact and dump water really quick. It is no accident that Imlay packs also use perforated vinyl fabric in the highest wear areas.

[NeonBlue]

I've been lucky enough to be testing these bags out for about 5 months now and have been very pleased with them. Taken them through everything from Imlay in Zion to Cerberus in Death Valley and never been let down.

Glad to see they're finally ready for sale. Lots of people have been asking and waiting.

71534

[LVRAY]

I was also a tester of these bags for several months and I was very impressed with them. I purposely tried to abuse and destroy them, and I was barely able to put a scratch in one. They are very good bags.

[oldno7]

Will your final product be "Made in the USA"?

That is important to me in purchasing products.

[harness man]

71536YES:flag: We have been manufacturing sewn products here in Vegas for the last 18 years.
Building rope bags 'in house' keeps our sewing team employed and gives the highest possible quality control.
-And when inventory runs low we just make some more.

[oldno7]

That is awesome.
:2thumbs::2thumbs:

You'll get my future business and references....


Glad to see it goes with my canyon pro DS:haha:

[deagol]

That is great, and far too rare these days. I will definitely keep your company in the forefront of my mind if/when looking for a new rope bag..
:2thumbs:

[Deathcricket]

Loving it!

One quick thing, just regarding the web interface. When you "hover" the mouse over the medium rope bag for "more info" it sits over the small rope bag, so you can't really click on it to pull up more info.

71537

[Canyonater]

Is the patch now on the side/top vs on the front like on the home page? I like that its on the drawstring area. The backpack straps on the large is a good addition. I've sewn backpack straps to my large Imlay silos so that they are easy to carry when you have a large group and someone can just carry rope.

[harness man]

Whooooaaaaa! thank you for the web interface feedback! That is a bit goofy:crazy:. We are trying to make it EASIER to get rope bags! We will fix!
The Canyon Werks label HAS moved to the top (not the side) of the bags. It seems to be better protected there. We are thinking alike on the backpack straps!
Thanks for the comments. Todd and Desi

[Kuya]

So when are the CanyonWerks Canyon Backpacks gunna start being sold? ;)

[harness man]

Hi Kuya....that IS an interesting question. Rope bags of course are easier than packs... But then that is how we started out 18 years ago- making custom packs. But then doing it right-
anatomical back frames, bomber construction, different sizes for different back lengths, women's specific sizes... it's a lot. We are sort of motivated. Neither of us can tolerate the Imlay packs- the tent pole back frame hurts!.
Do you think there is a market?

[Slot Machine]

Do you think there is a market?

There is a market, assuming you can make a pack that is as good, or better, than the ICG packs. If not as good, I'm pretty sure most people will wait for the ICG packs to arrive.

I have the Kolob and Heaps packs for canyons, and an Osprey pack for backpacking. The ICG packs are nearly perfect, but do not fit my back properly, likely designed for someone with a longer spine.

However, my Osprey pack fits like a glove, near perfection in the comfort department, but would not last a day in a canyon.

So, if you can combine ICG's toughness/functionality with Osprey's comfort, then I'd bet you would get a couple of hundred orders annually.

[harness man]

Hi Slot Machine. Good points! Can you tell us the model (and size) of the Osprey that you like? I'll check it out.

[Kuya]

Hi Kuya....that IS an interesting question. Rope bags of course are easier than packs... But then that is how we started out 18 years ago- making custom packs. But then doing it right-
anatomical back frames, bomber construction, different sizes for different back lengths, women's specific sizes... it's a lot. We are sort of motivated. Neither of us can tolerate the Imlay packs- the tent pole back frame hurts!.
Do you think there is a market?

Wow! If love to try out your gear.

To be honest, I'm not sure what the market is like for canyoneering gear, I just know my friends and i are in dire need of some good canyon packs. ICG packs have kinda been the gold standard for canyon packs (or so I've heard) so I've been holding out to buy one of those... but if there is something else out there that is comparable I'd definitely check it out!

[Slot Machine]

Hi Slot Machine. Good points! Can you tell us the model (and size) of the Osprey that you like? I'll check it out.

Hello HM. My Osprey is an Atmos 50, size Medium. The thing that separates it from the ICG packs is the 'torso adjustable interchangeable shoulder harness', which looks costly to manufacture, and difficult to perfect.

http://www.ospreypacks.com/en/product/mens/atmos_50?tab=features

Also, my wife wanted me to mention that she would be very interested in a custom pack, because none of the larger ICG packs fit her (her waist is too small, 25 inches). I'd think the market for custom ladies canyon packs would be small (10-20 a year?), but if you are making them, I'd certainly buy one.

I'm sure Tom is following this thread... I would like to know his thoughts about this Osprey feature. Is it something that might be added to ICG packs in the future?

[ratagonia]

Hello HM. My Osprey is an Atmos 50, size Medium. The thing that separates it from the ICG packs is the 'torso adjustable interchangeable shoulder harness', which looks costly to manufacture, and difficult to perfect.

http://www.ospreypacks.com/en/product/mens/atmos_50?tab=features

Also, my wife wanted me to mention that she would be very interested in a custom pack, because none of the larger ICG packs fit her (her waist is too small, 25 inches). I'd think the market for custom ladies canyon packs would be small (10-20 a year?), but if you are making them, I'd certainly buy one.

I'm sure Tom is following this thread... I would like to know his thoughts about this Osprey feature. Is it something that might be added to ICG packs in the future?

Adjustable attachment points for the shoulder harness is a great feature. Perhaps the old-school style (Lowe Alpine circa 1985) would be robust enough to survive canyon trips, but certainly the modern way of doing this is pretty delicate.

Next round of the Kolob and Heaps packs will offer a smaller size of hipbelt as an option. When is the question, of course.

Tom

[hank moon]

Loving it!

One quick thing, just regarding the web interface. When you "hover" the mouse over the medium rope bag for "more info" it sits over the small rope bag, so you can't really click on it to pull up more info.


There's a workaround:

hover mouse pointer over medium bag to make the popup appear, then move the pointer around the bags (without passing over them) to the popup, then click the more info link

[2065toyota]

The spry pack has smaller shoulder straps and waist belt. My wife and my size 0 daughter both use Sprys. It has also became my goto pack for most canyons


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

[harness man]

Hank, Thank you for the workaround! Debugging in progress. And everyone for the pack comments. Tom knows his packs! Adjustable height shoulder straps:
one of the classic pack design conundrums....Usually the systems that have worked pay a price in weight and fiddly stuff that a canyon will eat... it is fun to think
about though!

[harness man]

Canyon Werks is starting to get a lot of inquiries about Canyon Packs. Since the Imlay Kolob and Heaps packs are the gold standard I would like to hear what users find to be the strengths (and weaknesses) for future pack development. I own a Kolob and admire the durablitiy, the scooped bottom (which helps NOT shove you off the cliff while down climbing), the rigid and light weight internal frame (tho it is too straight for my back) and the excellent drainage.
Any Users have comments or suggestions about features of these packs?

[Slot Machine]

The ICG packs leave little to be desired. If considering building with lighter materials, do not go with smaller buckles or straps. Do not go with thinner cordura. Also, don't be tempted to add zippers to the exterior.

I like the entire design of the ICG packs (except the comfort issue). Extremely well thought out, and IMO, difficult to improve upon.

Looking forward to seeing (or using) a prototype.

[deagol]

I also love the Imlay packs. I guess they may be a little uncomfortable compared to a regular backpack, but not so much (for me) that it is a huge issue. I also wonder if some of that arises from there simplicity and perhaps that helps their durability. Lots of adjustable belts and backing could be a liability in wet dirty tight canyons ?

I sometimes wish I could tighten the waist belt a tad more

[TommyBoy]

I sometimes wish I could tighten the waist belt a tad more

That seems to be a theme with canyon gear. The 5.10 canyoneers most people need to punch an extra hole or two to tighten them enough, and the packs, the waist never quite cinches tight enough. While I'm not a big guy, I don't think I'm tiny either, I could stand to loose a few pounds around the middle and yet I tighten the waistband as far as it will go.

[harness man]

These are great comments- keeping the durability level is primary- no 'high tech' fabric is going to work any better than the vinyl bottom/sides and the 1000D cordura.
The sizing of the hip band on the low end is an easy fix- it bottoms out on me also. What do you all think of the break in the side vinyl that allows you to shove a water bottle between the vinyl and the mesh- it kinda works and saves having a pocket hanging out on the sides to catch on stuff? I added water bottle pockets on the sides of my wife's Gregory pack and they got pretty shredded, fast!
Has any one had trouble with stuff floating out of the pleated pocket/pouch on the back of the pack?
Also, does the fully loaded pack give your head enough clearance with a helmet on?

[deagol]

What do you all think of the break in the side vinyl that allows you to shove a water bottle between the vinyl and the mesh- it kinda works and saves having a pocket hanging out on the sides to catch on stuff? I added water bottle pockets on the sides of my wife's Gregory pack and they got pretty shredded, fast!
I use a Camelback bladder, so don't use a water bottle. I use those breaks to stick knee pads or other thin things in the side pockets, so like them for that

Has any one had trouble with stuff floating out of the pleated pocket/pouch on the back of the pack? YES !! I lost a Gopro in the Zion Narrows that way :cry1: (but it was stupid of me to store it inside my helmet that way)..

Also, does the fully loaded pack give your head enough clearance with a helmet on? yes

[Slot Machine]

What do you all think of the break in the side vinyl that allows you to shove a water bottle between the vinyl and the mesh- it kinda works and saves having a pocket hanging out on the sides to catch on stuff? I added water bottle pockets on the sides of my wife's Gregory pack and they got pretty shredded, fast!

I do not use it for anything. Because,
1. It would widen the pack making it more difficult to move down canyon.
2. It would increase wear to that part of the pack, due to the full pocket sticking out and dragging.
3. It would increase wear to anything inside of the side pouch, being sanded through the holes.
4. It would provide one extra way for me to lose things.

Has any one had trouble with stuff floating out of the pleated pocket/pouch on the back of the pack?

No. I only use it to store my helmet, sometimes with my armor tucked carefully inside. Once my helmet is stored in the pouch, I cinch the designated strap down over the top of the pleated pocket, securing the helmet and armor in place.

Also, does the fully loaded pack give your head enough clearance with a helmet on? Yes.

[Mojave Silence]

Why not just make your large rope bag a little bigger and wider, add a waist belt....done. Would be similar to the former metolius bags

[deagol]

Why not just make your large rope bag a little bigger and wider, add a waist belt....done. Would be similar to the former metolius bags

doesn't sound very comfortable to me (YMMV)..... I like the packs. To tie-in with Slot Machine's answer RE: the side pockets or "breaks", I would agree with everything he says. When I use those pockets, it's for my pads during the hike to/from the canyon intself, but when I get to the narrows where I need them, they come out of the pockets and onto my knees and therefore don't contribute to all the points he made about things in those pockets causing the scrape factor to get worse in the narrows.

[harness man]

Hi Mojave- yes that is one way to go -just keep it really simple. I think others have already done this. There are some Euro canyon packs that are 'sacks with straps' and Metolius .
These are fine for short approaches and young tough people (not me!)
I would like to build a serious canyon pack with a 'modern' anatomical suspension utilizing the best of what everyone has learned so far about the gold standard: Imlay packs.
And these comments are really useful!
So is the consensus on a Kolob sized pack is NOT to have side pockets like the Heaps?

[deagol]

....So is the consensus on a Kolob sized pack is NOT to have side pockets like the Heaps?

IMHO: keep the pockets so those who want them have them have them. If they are not used, then they don't create the aforementioned problems in the narrow sections.

[french_de]

Canyoneering is tough on packs. I once ruined a $175.00 pack after just two trips. After trying different packs and traveling through many canyons most of my group has settled on the use of tubular shaped packs that have typically been used in caving activities.
These caving pack are tubular in design, have adjustable shoulder straps, are top loading roll down with velcro and side release buckles to secure, have adjustable side compression straps and have a side carrying handle.
They also have a tether loop for easy bunny strap hookup and a webbing skirt around the bottom to protect the area most susceptible to abrasion. There are a couple of drain holes also at the bottom. The larger ones have adjustable waist belts and padded shoulder straps.
The tubular design seems to work better than most other packs when moving through tight canyons, the design is simple but very durable with the double thick Cordura (11 oz. lined with PVC-coated pack cloth). I have a large pack that has been through 25 canyons and is still going strong. The diameter of the pack is large enough that most rope bags fit well inside. A 50ML dry bag fits perfectly in the 2400 cu. in size. A 25ml dry bag fits great in the smaller 1725 cu. in pack.
A big plus for me is the is the cost. A 1750 cu.in packs runs $77.00. A 2400 cu. in. pack runs about $82.00
The next size up (2500 cu. in) with padded straps and waist belt is about $100.00. A great value.



71636


http://www.gonzoguanogear.com/packs.html

[deagol]

my brother-in-law has a pack very similar to the cave pack (I think it was a Petzl?), and he hates it due to the fact he says it's uncomfortable. He was longing after out Imlay packs when we did canyons with him. I have no first-hand experience with those packs, only from him. He specifically wanted a waistbelt and more structure along the portion against his back. He also used his hands to hold up the bottom after he wore the pack for a long time. YMMV

Ironically, I did a cave last weekend with some seasoned cavers and one of them had the same batman cave pack as shown above.

[ratagonia]

Hi Mojave- yes that is one way to go -just keep it really simple. I think others have already done this. There are some Euro canyon packs that are 'sacks with straps' and Metolius .
These are fine for short approaches and young tough people (not me!)
I would like to build a serious canyon pack with a 'modern' anatomical suspension utilizing the best of what everyone has learned so far about the gold standard: Imlay packs.
And these comments are really useful!
So is the consensus on a Kolob sized pack is NOT to have side pockets like the Heaps?

Welcome to this particular game, Harness Man. I suppose I could not have the playground to myself forever...

I greatly appreciate that your rope bags are decidedly different than mine.

It is unfortunate that you chose the same typeface for your label that I use on the packs and rope bags for embroidery.

It would be unfortunate if you made copies of my packs with slight changes, rather than came up with something original. I realize there is only so much you can do with a pack, but... jus' sayin', your development conversation here is heading toward "make an imitation Imlay pack with slight changes".

The side armor on the Kolob and Spry packs are not intended to be used as pockets, which is why they suck when used that way. The pocket on the back is intended as a pocket, but only for the approach. Once a person is IN the canyon, wearing their wetsuit, harness and helmet, then there is plenty of space INSIDE the pack, and this is where waterbottles etc. should be. I always tell people, you can put anything in those (insecure) outside pockets that you are willing to have dropped on your head from 200 feet. Most people get the hint.

Tom

[Wasatch]

One thing I've noticed over the years. The Imlay packs are great for Zion/Moab/Swell canyons, they will last forever, probably the last pack you will ever own/buy, but in North Wash/Robbers Roost/White Roost they will not last any where near as long, they will last alot longer then most, if not all backpacks, so depending on where you head out the most determines how long your pack will last. I don't know, maybe that's why their called Imlay Canyon Gear in reference best used in Zion Canyons.

[flatiron]

One thing I've noticed over the years. The Imlay packs are great for Zion/Moab/Swell canyons, they will last forever, probably the last pack you will ever own/buy, but in North Wash/Robbers Roost/White Roost they will not last any where near as long, they will last alot longer then most, if not all backpacks, so depending on where you head out the most determines how long your pack will last.
Doesn't that pretty much apply to all gear, including the human body. NW/RR/WR chews up both and spits you out. :nod:

[harness man]

Hi Tom, and thanks for your comments. AND thanks for inventing so much canyon specific gear- we all really appreciate it.
I am glad that you see that the Canyon Werks rope bags are very different from yours. Just copying stuff is a waste of everyone's time (and is kinda mean spirited).
If we ever make any, our packs would be different also, sharing the DNA (and raw materials) of our rope bags.
Admiring the particulars of your packs is not for copying the features but an attempt to better understand the functions that are served by them. Tapping the experience of others to see what us newbies have missed.
For Desi and I, making canyoneering equipment is driven by fun, but also necessity- Rope Bags because none of our friends can find them; the CRITR rappel device because we think the current crop are confusing/unsafe; and canyon packs maybe? because the gold standard doesn't fit us.
As for the Font chosen for the Canyon Werks logo- we spent a long time finding it, and then making sure or label did NOT look anything like any other outdoor company's, especially yours!
How do you think these logos are alike?71637
Sincerely, Todd and Desi

[Slot Machine]

One thing I've noticed over the years. The Imlay packs are great for Zion/Moab/Swell canyons, they will last forever, probably the last pack you will ever own/buy, but in North Wash/Robbers Roost/White Roost they will not last any where near as long, they will last alot longer then most, if not all backpacks, so depending on where you head out the most determines how long your pack will last. I don't know, maybe that's why their called Imlay Canyon Gear in reference best used in Zion Canyons.

If you select the right pack for the right canyon, then the ICG packs will wear out far more slowly. Taking a Heaps pack through Middle Lep is an easy way to ruin that pack.

As for the small packs, we have a couple of Leprechaun packs that still look new, but have seen several skinny canyons (and we are hard on our gear). It will take years to wear them out.

For perspective, I wore out 4 Black Diamond Bullet packs, plus 3 lesser packs, in one year, before we invested in the ICG packs. I simply thrash my packs, not caring about cost or lifespan.

Even with my abusive style, my Kolob pack has seen 30 or 40 canyons and is holding up pretty well. I really tried to kill it when dragging it through Trachyotomy (wrong size pack for that canyon), and it will STILL last at least 10 more canyons. I'm very impressed with it.

-

Lastly, those two logos don't look anything alike. Unbiased opinion.

[ratagonia]

Not the label/logo, but the embroidery on the packs:

and I see it is not the exact same typeface (Mason Alt), but a similar one. However, easier for me to change the embroidery typeface that for you to scrap a pile of labels.

T

[Slot Machine]

Ah. Indeed, the Mason Alt embroidery does give ICG packs a signature look... You should not change that.

I vote that Harness Man changes his labels, once they are used up. :popcorn:

[harness man]

That is a generous comment, changing the font on your embroidery is still a big deal.
We do not like embroidery on our equipment, so our typeface is just going to live on the logo. To do embroidery on our rope bags also WOULD be weird.
As for the Canyon Werks, LLC woven label, yes that ship has already sailed, 10,000 labels worth (standard run).
I hope we are all still around when they run out.
But REALLY, do you find our font/label to be derivative?
We do not.71641

[ratagonia]

T
But REALLY, do you find our font/label to be derivative?
We do not.

I don't find it to be derivative, if you're using the word in the way that I am using the word, which is in such a manner as to possibly confuse the canyoneering public. But they are a little too close for my comfort and I consider it an unfortunate correlation. I don't consider it a big deal to change my typeface.

Examining my mind, I think my primary concern is that if someone knew your work and then encountered mine for the first time, that they might think mine was derivative of yours, which is not acceptable to me.

Tom

[harness man]

That seems to us to be a rather SEVERE brand aesthetic... which we kind of admire...
Segway to brand aesthetics:
Decades ago...there are rumors/legends of an awesome, creative, upstart climbing company called JRAT, which burst on the climbing scene with great climbing gear and an edgey BRAND with a rat caricature called 'Ratagonia'. JRAT/Ratagonia equipment was the BOMB (I owned a harness, chalk bag, t-shirt, and had the stickers plastered on my truck). JRAT branding was the 'climbing equipment with attitude' (Rattitude!) and 'Ratagonia' was everywhere. 'Ratagonia' was also a (hilarious) hi-jack of Patagonia's precious trademark.
Legend has it, that when Patagonia's lawyers served JRAT with a cease and desist order, that JRAT printed the order on the back of a JRAT t-shirt! (which sold like hot cakes).
Please clarify for us Ratagonia, is the legend true, and are you that rascally dude?

[hank moon]

That seems to us to be a rather SEVERE brand aesthetic... which we kind of admire...
Segway to brand aesthetics:
Decades ago...there are rumors/legends of an awesome, creative, upstart climbing company called JRAT, which burst on the climbing scene with great climbing gear and an edgey BRAND with a rat caricature called 'Ratagonia'. JRAT/Ratagonia equipment was the BOMB (I owned a harness, chalk bag, t-shirt, and had the stickers plastered on my truck). JRAT branding was the 'climbing equipment with attitude' (Rattitude!) and 'Ratagonia' was everywhere. 'Ratagonia' was also a (hilarious) hi-jack of Patagonia's precious trademark.
Legend has it, that when Patagonia's lawyers served JRAT with a cease and desist order, that JRAT printed the order on the back of a JRAT t-shirt! (which sold like hot cakes).
Please clarify for us Ratagonia, is the legend true, and are you that rascally dude?

Tom Jones aka "ratagonia" aka "L'empereur" can be curiously modest at times, so to keep things moving along, allow me to confirm that he is the one and only (OAO)

Ratagonia

[harness man]

71652Thanks for clarifying that, Hank.
What JRAT pulled off is a classic 'David and Goliath' guerilla marketing strategy.
Following THAT playbook, we would harass and 'goof' on the established Imlay brand to leverage the new Canyon Werks brand; which we ain't gonna do!
Out of friendliness, admiration, and respect for Tom; and for pride and belief in our own product line.
Tom, we hope this friendly exchange has clarified our intent to follow our own vision at Canyon Werks, without taking from yours.
With Love, Todd and Desiree

[geckobiker]

Just a thought, if ICG had any product to sell, it would be much more difficult for Canyon Werks to market their product. I have been patiently destroying other packs and rope bags waiting for ICG product. Now I have an alternate, thank you very much.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Kuya]

Just a thought, if ICG had any product to sell, it would be much more difficult for Canyon Werks to market their product. I have been patiently destroying other packs and rope bags waiting for ICG product. Now I have an alternate, thank you very much.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Agreed! :nod:

[ratagonia]

Just a thought, if ICG had any product to sell, ...

(BIG SIGH)

T

[jon.moab]

It is a bit ironic that this debate with ICG is even taking place. I have heard rumors that Tom's packs are largely based on/copies of some offered by Black Diamond years ago. If one were into making parallels, they would also know that Tom's resume lists time as a designer for BD. And he is complaining about embroidery on a different bag all together. Pot, meet the kettle.

[harness man]

Hi Jon! thanks for your comments.
The great qualities of Tom's Imlay packs certainly come form his decades-long experience as a pack designer/fabricator/ user which predates his stint with Black Diamond back to the JRAT days.
I have been an avid fan (and consumer) of Black Diamond alpine packs (as a climber) and can tell about the time that Tom left the company: the packs got worse!
Imlay packs have several REALLY distinct features that set them apart from all other packs. That is why they are the current 'gold standard' for canyoneering.
We do not think it fair to consider them 'copies of BD packs' when Tom helped design the BD packs.
Applying hard won experience to solve new challenges is called 'Wisdom'.
Todd and Desi at CANYON WERKS LLC.

[harness man]

71786Folks have asked for more colors to help organize their canyoneering ropes. New colors available http://www.canyonwerks.com