The unknown Kiva

[rjhooperphoto]

AR

[Byron]

I just paid a visit to your website...great work! It seems that one shot of the kiva is the only one you put up, as I couldn't find it in your galleries.

I've also done tons of exploring, deep into the wilderness and finding ruins that few, if any, have seen. Some of them are quite impressive, but that kiva of yours certainly is a top gem.

I certainly understand your desire to keep it secret, but remember that no all would come there to do harm...therefore it kind of breaks my heart to know that I may never see it, as I love ruins.

So my brain is working...my best guess it that it's in Arizona, perhaps west/northwest of Kayenta...in or around Tsegi Canyon or Grey Mesa. I've heard there are LOTS of incredible ruins there, but it's nearly impossible these days to get in there.

Back in the nineties there were a few Navajo that would take some folks in on tours, or let them explore on their own. Some of my old time hiking buddies told me about going in there and seeing all these ruins in pristine conditions. Eventually though, other Navajos made it clear that strangers weren't welcome in there...damaging cars, blocking roads, things like that.

Otherwise, I can't imagine that kiva would be anywhere near Cedar Mesa...but then again, the rangers there were able to keep the Citadel a secret, for a while.

Anyway, I could show you some really awesome stuff...perhaps I'll show you mine if you show me yours, eh?

[BaitForTheBuzzards]

Great photo. I usually don't like people in landscape photos but for this one it really works.

[peterb]

Thanks for sharing the image...got any more? ...please?

Thanks also for not sharing the location...it is enough to know that these places exist....amazing!

[rjhooperphoto]

I am not usually one to put people into photos either..but this did work out, helps that she is attractive!

[rjhooperphoto]

Peter I do have a few more but nothing too much in detail, as a photographer I was looking for specific composition with this.. I ll post them this weekend!

[rjhooperphoto]

Bryon, thanks! It is too bad about the reservation. there is a lot to see there for sure! I think the best of the best has only been seen by a small handful of people. you have any photos?

[Canyonlight]

The story on the kiva & the kiva itself is false. The kiva was constructed buy a guy in Apple Valley, UT.( E of Hurricane ) & is in the backyard. You can even see the opening on GE @ 309547 4108659 NAD83.

[Smaugxxx]

Can you give the point with another format of GPS, I dont know how I can convert to see in GE ?
This kiva is just another history to win much money and have popularity...

[accadacca]

It looks like the original post has been deleted?

[Byron]

Ha! Snookered by a con! I've seen a few really nice Kivas out in the wild, but come to think of it, never any quite that nice. Should seen through that one.

Hey rjhooper, you're cred now sucks big time.

[bigred72]

His website says he's the captain of the St. George fire department. Talk about integrity.

[villainousturtle]

How did you figure that out, canyon light? That's actually really impressive that someone would just wake up and build such a realistic Kiva in their backyard. Are you guys really pissed at RJ now or am I misreading the sarcasm?


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[Byron]

Are you guys really pissed at RJ now or am I misreading the sarcasm?


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkDude...

Put the Sherlock Holmes cap on for this one. Look at the date that canyonlight called him out and then look at when rj deleted it. The word for that is "busted".

No, it's not sarcasm. And it's not anger. It's disgust.

[Canyonlight]

Exactly right.Disgust. A lot of people initially wanted to find the "kiva". No one ( friends who spend considerable time exploring Cedar Mesa, Grand Gulch etc. ) had any idea where it was. We pretty much decided it was a fake but had no real proof. While discussing this w/ a friend & mentioning that Hooper was from St. George he then recognized it. He had been there. The guy who built it had nothing to do w/ the deception. What is interesting is that although he removed it from Bogley he kept it on his Facebook page etc.

[Iceaxe]

I'm always amazed at the amount of knowledge on bogley... you guys rock!

[Philippe]

[SIZE=1][FONT=arial]After studying RJ Hooper's picture for 5 minutes when he published it in November 2013, me and my friends who are interested in Native American dwellings (and have visited lots of them) were not fooled by his "story" and guessed that it was not a real kiva but a welldone reconstructed one, so we didn't try to find its location.

Thank you Canyonlight for this information confirming what we were gessing and that it was just a joke from RJ Hooper.

According to this link http://womenofthefurtrade.com/Primitive_Pottery_Camp.html John Olsen built this kiva (good job !)

As you said, we can see this kiva on Google Earth at 37

[Swimswithtrout]

[QUOTE=Philippe;564217][SIZE=1][FONT=arial]After studying RJ Hooper's picture for 5 minutes when he published it in November 2013, me and my friends who are interested in Native American dwellings (and have visited lots of them) were not fooled by his "story" and guessed that it was not a real kiva but a welldone reconstructed one, so we didn't try to find its location.

Thank you Canyonlight for this information confirming what we were gessing and that it was just a joke from RJ Hooper.

According to this link http://womenofthefurtrade.com/Primitive_Pottery_Camp.html John Olsen built this kiva (good job !)

As you said, we can see this kiva on Google Earth at 37

[Swimswithtrout]

Seems Mr Hooper has deleted the photo from his own site as well.

[villainousturtle]

At first, giving him the benefit of the doubt, I was under the impression that, perhaps, RJ originally thought it was an authentic Kiva. Then when it was shown to be a fake, maybe he got embarrassed and absconded.

The "high on a Mesa top" embellishment (shown to be false now that we know it's just in some Schmoe's backyard, at ground level) in addition to the hiding and complete silence behavior, on the other hand, points to a more slimy intent- That from the beginning he knew it was fake and just lied to us.

He could clear his name by just 'fessing up in either case, but apparently he's decided, so far, to hide.

C'mon RJ, we know you're reading all this.




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[TheTruth]

You can't hide from TheTruth...

http://i.imgur.com/82IPTDS.jpg

https://500px.com/photo/84047981/the-kiva-by-rj-hooper
https://gp1.wac.edgecastcdn.net/806614/photos/photos.500px.net/84047981/45dcedd3c925ca83d9a3db2cc94eff74488a4c85/2048.jpg

[Byron]

You're a friggin' dork.

[Swimswithtrout]

You can't hide from TheTruth... http://i.imgur.com/82IPTDS.jpg https://500px.com/photo/84047981/the-kiva-by-rj-hooper https://gp1.wac.edgecastcdn.net/806614/photos/photos.500px.net/84047981/45dcedd3c925ca83d9a3db2cc94eff74488a4c85/2048.jpg

"Re-constructed ????"

It was never there to begin with, just call a fake a fake !

What's next? Jurassic Park ?

"I was wandering around a high mesa and found something nobodies ever seen"

[Swimswithtrout]

You're a friggin' dork.

And, according to his website, the full time captain of the St. George fire department.

Would you "trust", somebody in a position of trust, that's been posting a scam like this for the past several years ??

[Scott P]

When I first saw this I wondered about the ladder. I wondered if it were real, and had never been visited in a long time, where did the ladder come from? The ladders to the kivas in Bullet Canyon and Slickhorn Canyon, for example, are actually re-creations.

I've seen a lot of kivas over the years, but no (original) intact ladders. Have any kivas actually been found with an intact ladder? Even if someone did find one, it seems foolish that someone would use it.

[Byron]

.https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRJ_EKII1uJ3_k8U7r9tu5ARuZPqb5Wm 0agJm6t0C4M7CA2ruij


As you probably know, this is the original ladder from the kiva in Slickhorn that's now in the Blanding museum. They took it out of there in the early 90s?...prior to that, people were using it.

Because of that, I thought that Mr. Hooper's "undiscovered ruin" could certainly have one. I've also never encountered one amongst all the ruins I've seen...and in some cases "found".

There's a really nice, clean kiva in a canyon not far from the Gulch that myself and a girlfriend stumbled upon. We were on a little side hike and she wanted to turn back because it was getting shallow and boring...I pressed on with the intention of making the rim and there it was, in a place that you normally wouldn't expect it. Kind of like Yellow House. That was back in '98...I reckon perhaps others may have seen it since then, but it's kind of a weird diversion to reach. It was an after dinner "Let's cruise up here" kind of thing. I didn't bring my camera.

I can't help but wonder and be hopeful that something like a pristine kiva might still exist. My best guess that if one (or more) does, it's on Navajo land. But then again, they pilfered wood from those old ruins 600 years ago themselves.

[Scott P]

...prior to that, people were using it.

Still, even if one is found, it's not a good idea. I'm glad they took it out. Personally I'd hate to be the one that broke a rung on a 900 year old historic ladder. I'm willing to guess that most of the Anasazi/Ancestral Pueblo weighed a bit less than I do as well.:wink: Personally, I don't think I'd ever use an authentic ladder to access a kiva.

I've seen ladders in museums, but I've always assumed they've been repaired at least a little.

I've been to a lot of remote ruins (probably not near as many as you though), but I've never seen an intact ladder. I've seen one leading up to a ruin (which I'm sure you have seen too), but I don't think I'd use it and wouldn't call it fully intact. I guess it would be possible to find one, judging by the conditions of say, the Bridge of Poles near Eminence Break, but the kiva ladder in the photo here looks too good to be true. If it weren't for the ladder, I'd consider the story much more believable.

[Canyonlight]

To the best of my knowledge there aren't any intact kiva ladders in-situ. I guess it is possible there are some in the Tesgi canyon system. On Cedar Mesa there are quite a few sets of ladder poles, some w/ the rungs on the floor by the poles. The replica poles in Perfect Kiva/Slickhorn have now had bolts added. It would sure be great to find an intact ladder out there.

[Philippe]

On Cedar Mesa there are quite a few sets of ladder poles, some w/ the rungs on the floor by the poles.

Here is an example of one of them :

76932

[Smaugxxx]

Strange I recognize this pole of the Healing Kiva Philippe, Hope I never seen a queen inside it like the tennis player girl of Hooper :fitz:

[Byron]

I've been to a lot of remote ruins (probably not near as many as you though).Maybe, maybe not...one thing's for sure, there's plenty to see when you get more than a day away from the vehicle. Especially around the Abajo's.

[Philippe]

Strange I recognize this pole of the Healing Kiva Philippe

You're right, Alan, this is the kiva that you call Healing Kiva on your website.


Hope I never seen a queen inside it like the tennis player girl of Hooper :fitz:

What would you say if you meet this archeologist from Memphis in a kiva ?


76935

[Smaugxxx]

Saying return to Memphis listen Elvis !

[Scott P]

Yes, this one is believable and a much more likely find than finding a ladder in the condition in the original post on this thread.


Here is an example of one of them :

76932


Especially around the Abajo's.

Agreed. The not fully intact ladder I have seen was in one of the canyons I know you have explored (the one that starts with a B), so I'm pretty sure you have seen it too.