Is the Clove Hitch Safe?

[craigskiles]

I'm looking for some advice from the experts about the safety of the clove hitch, especially when used with a stiff rope to make a 'biner-block.

In my experiments with my brand new Canyonero 9.2mm and a collection of various carabiners have found that I have trouble getting a clove hitch to tighten and stay tight. With a soft dynamic rope, it tightens up nicely and doesn't seem so scary.

From searching on the internet, I have found some knot-based websites mentioning that a rolling hitch should be used in place of the clove hitch.

However, with the stiff Canyonero rope, I don't see the rolling hitch working any better.

Maybe I just need to rappel on my new rope a few times before using it with a clove hitch or maybe someone can suggest an alternative or enhancement to the clove hitch that allows it to work with a new stiff rope.

Craig

[Absolute Gravity]

When I'm out with Bob (Slot Machine), which is most of the times I get out, we tie a figure 8 on a bight and then put the biner through the bight and the lowest loop of the '8' and then set the knot along the spine of the biner. It is bulkier than a clove hitch but works great. Might be a less scary alternative for you.

[Mountaineer]

Clove hitch is safe when used correctly. Used it thousands of times.

Constrictor knot is a good alternate.

[craigskiles]

Thanks. The constrictor hitch works very well! It is easy to untie with my new stiff rope but it becomes almost unreleasable with my soft dynamic rope.

[Bootboy]

Thanks. The constrictor hitch works very well! It is easy to untie with my new stiff rope but it becomes almost unreleasable with my soft dynamic rope.

It's easily releasable with any rope. But you have to tie it right. Clip the cross over so you are clipping three strands instead of just two. Once tightened it can easily be loosened if you work the knot to the corner of the biner.

[Byron]

tie a figure 8 on a bight That's the ticket right there...I'm an old school figure 8 whore. That knot does it all and takes all of 3 seconds to work.

[Slot Machine]

The clove hitch is safe as far as I know. However, I picture myself messing it up under combat conditions, then falling to my death... It just seems like the kind of thing I would screw up at some point. Not logical, I know. Like Byron, I'm very comfortable being an old school fig-8 whore.

However, there are some perks to my quirks. If your group only uses two knots (overhands for webbing and fig-8's for rope), then it is very easy to check each other's work. Yes, we know other rope tricks, but we choose not to use them. The simplicity adds to our safety, IMO.

Here is a fig-8 block on my burly bomber living room anchor:

70332

[oldno7]

The clove hitch works well. With a stiffer handed rope, spend a minute and dress it and tighten from both sides.

Each rappeler should take a second and inspect prior to abseiling but that should be the rappeler's job EVERYTIME, on every rigging/anchor.

Failure to do so, could result in a dirt nap.

[oldno7]

I would add, only use these static blocks if you are competent enough to convert them to a lower.

If you are not, I would suggest a dynamic block.

[hank moon]

Lotsa good stuff already mentioned...and here's another solution: the triple clove


http://youtu.be/6MvCovL4uEI

[craigskiles]

I would add, only use these static blocks if you are competent enough to convert them to a lower.

If you are not, I would suggest a dynamic block.


I'm not competent enough to covert to a lower but am working on that.

By "dynamic block" do you mean something like a stone knot that can be easily released if the need to lower arises?

[oldno7]

I'm not competent enough to covert to a lower but am working on that.

By "dynamic block" do you mean something like a stone knot that can be easily released if the need to lower arises?

No--I mean something more in the line of easily contingency capable(fig. 8 releasable,munter mule, etc.), rather than having to convert to contingency.

Time is always of the essence when SHTF, a little forethought makes the movement less of a panic when actually needed.

A bit of practice makes it simple.

[craigskiles]

Oldno7, Thanks. The words "dynamic block" confused me but I understand what a contingency anchor is, even if I'm not quite competent to tie one.

Hank, the triple clove hitch is fantastic and your video makes tying the clove hitch so much easier than how I was doing it.

[oldno7]

Oldno7, Thanks. The words "dynamic block" confused me but I understand what a contingency anchor is, even if I'm not quite competent to tie one.



You're likely competent enough, just need a bit of show and tell(unlike show don't tell):mrgreen:

[ghawk]

The clove hitch works well. With a stiffer handed rope, spend a minute and dress it and tighten from both sides.


This ^ - I spend a little time dressing it and have never had issues with it.

[oldno7]

Lotsa good stuff already mentioned...and here's another solution: the triple clove


http://youtu.be/6MvCovL4uEI

Why stop with 3?

7--I really like 7.....

[oldno7]

When hank and I do canyon's together, we always use 7 hitches.

Wait--I've never done a canyon with hank, but if I do, we will use 7 cloves, cause 3 is better than 2.

[oldno7]

Red left showing for the anal...:lol8:

[oldno7]

and--if ya hitch a lot, ya ain't gotta dress em out as much, cause they hold gud

[Taylor]

Hitches? We don't need no stinking hitches. Just rap double strand.

[oldno7]

Hitches? We don't need no stinking hitches. Just rap double strand.


Shane??

Shane, is that you?

[ratagonia]

This WAS a clove hitch I set, after a couple rappellers. Which is why I now use the Triple Clove. Yes, I am not as cautious as Mr. 7.

Tom :moses:

[craigskiles]

Yikes! Ratagonia's picture has convinced me that the clove hitch is good in theory only.

The triple clove just might be the ticket.

It is going to be funny when I show up in Utah next spring and display to my partners what I have learned from Bogley. They probably won't find my "oldno7" hitch to be practical.

[oldno7]

This WAS a clove hitch I set, after a couple rappellers. Which is why I now use the Triple Clove. Yes, I am not as cautious as Mr. 7.

Tom :moses:

This looks like a great advertisement for EACH person checking the anchor and rigging, prior to their rappelling.(YOU are responsible for your OWN safety)

I would presume the last person who rapped, did not check the block?

Maybe they didn't feel the need because Moses set it?

Maybe they didn't notice it was "girth" hitched and not clove hitched?

[oldno7]

A "clove" hitch(what is commonly used for blocking a rope with a carabiner), has rope that comes from opposing directions.(see picture)

[oldno7]

A "girth" hitch(which is NOT used to block a rope with a carabiner) is pictured here.

Both rope end come from the same direction.

[canyoncaver]

This looks like a great advertisement for EACH person checking the anchor and rigging, prior to their rappelling.(YOU are responsible for your OWN safety)

I would presume the last person who rapped, did not check the block?

Maybe they didn't feel the need because Moses set it?

Maybe they didn't notice it was "girth" hitched and not clove hitched?

Maybe they were just too distracted by the naked man in the drop zone with no helmet on. :scared:

[oldno7]

Notice how on a "girth" hitch, the rope over the 2 strands is on one side of the carabiner.

On a "clove" hitch, the rope crosses diagonally over the carabiner.

Now study Tom's picture, if the hitch is placed in the intended spot(backbone of carabiner) The rope over the top is on one side--not crossed over the carabiner.

[mzamp]

This WAS a clove hitch I set, after a couple rappellers. Which is why I now use the Triple Clove. Yes, I am not as cautious as Mr. 7.

Tom :moses:

So what you're saying is to always check knots that you tie? :naughty: - err umm I mean hitches.

[oldno7]

I'm going to redact my comment on Tom's being a girth hitch.

The picture is difficult to see but when I loaded it into LR, I couldn't conclusively say, one way or the other.

My apologies to Tom, if I was wrong.

I still can't completely verify but I was wrong to make a judgement when not 100% certain.

[hank moon]

I'm going to redact my comment on Tom's being a girth hitch.

The picture is difficult to see but when I loaded it into LR, I couldn't conclusively say, one way or the other.

here's an enhanced version that may help. like you, i was pretty certain at first view that it wasn't a clove hitch, but changed my mind after a closer look. Unfortunately, the pic is really bad, and there's not a better version available (until now, that is). :)


70363

[Bootboy]

So stop using a clove. I'm a big fan of the constrictor for blocks. It won't put a twist in the rope and it won't open up. Which are two of the biggest problems with stiff canyoneering ropes and the clove hitch. It's really easy to open as well if you just slide it down to the corner.

[ratagonia]

I'm going to redact my comment on Tom's being a girth hitch.

The picture is difficult to see but when I loaded it into LR, I couldn't conclusively say, one way or the other.

My apologies to Tom, if I was wrong.

I still can't completely verify but I was wrong to make a judgement when not 100% certain.

Wow, Kurt. I did not know you were so powerful! A limited, conditional apology from Mr. 7 to me, and the universe shifted so much that Bogley was down for FOUR Days!

---------

But, thank you.

Scared the crap out of me when I saw that picture. Have used a triple ever since.

Very certain I tied a clove to start. I tightened it up, and if it was not right, it would tighten up very differently.

I call that knot a "cow hitch", reserving the name "girth hitch" for the same knot performed with another sling or other "soft" material.

Tom

[rick t]

I too have seen what Toms photo shows, in action in a canyon. And worse. I once tied a correct clove hitch on the spline, and because the 9m rope had been wet on its last use, and was extremely stiff, I carefully set it, tight against the rap ring, so it couldn't come undone. The first rappeller, my sister, stepped over the edge with one foot, and then pulled herself back up on the deck for a one second comment- to get the camera out, and dropped back onto rappel. In that second of releasing the tension on the rope, the clove hitch virtually exploded, like a coiled sping, and in a heartbeat was no more than three raps around the spline, which rapidly started dropping the rappeller. Having left 8 ft or so of tail, I was able to grab the rope and stop it, after only a foot or so had run through it, but it scared me badly, it was a close call. The group all talked about it, and each persons responsibility in ths arrangement, but about this time I first became aware of the 8 block, which cannot come undone by itself, despite repeatedly being weighted and unweighted, and of course is a contingency block which can be halfway undone to allow lowering of the rappeller using the 8 when the need arises- as if she gets her hair caught up in the descender halfway down the pine creek exit rap, leaving her locked up,swinging in the air, 50 ft off the ground. Between the fact that it cannot come undone spontaneously, and with the added safety of it being a contingency block, an 8 is now the only block I use or teach.

[deagol]

So stop using a clove. I'm a big fan of the constrictor for blocks. It won't put a twist in the rope and it won't open up. Which are two of the biggest problems with stiff canyoneering ropes and the clove hitch. It's really easy to open as well if you just slide it down to the corner.

I'm thinking I may like this one a bit better that a triple clove, need to practice .....

[craigskiles]

Here are two photos of a modification to the the clove hitch that tightens nicely even with a stiff rope but is much easier to release than the constrictor hitch.

I just accidentally "discovered" this hitch while messing around with the clove hitch. Does anyone know what this hitch is called? It is really just the same as a clove hitch but with two riding turns instead of just one.

7048370484

[deagol]

It's easily releasable with any rope. But you have to tie it right. Clip the cross over so you are clipping three strands instead of just two. Once tightened it can easily be loosened if you work the knot to the corner of the biner.

do you have a picture of this ?

Thanks...

[Canyonater]

Here are two photos of a modification to the the clove hitch that tightens nicely even with a stiff rope but is much easier to release than the constrictor hitch.

I just accidentally "discovered" this hitch while messing around with the clove hitch. Does anyone know what this hitch is called? It is really just the same as a clove hitch but with two riding turns instead of just one.

7048370484

That one is complicated to tie on a bight....

[ratagonia]

Please do not overlook that one great benefit of the clove hitch on a biner is that it is EASY to tie and EASY to inspect. The Triple Clove also carries these attributes.

As an expert on making simple things complicated, I can tell you that there are consequences to doing so.

Tom

[hank moon]

Please do not overlook that one great benefit of the clove hitch on a biner is that it is EASY to tie and EASY to inspect.

What'r ya? some kinda SOCIALIST? :)

[craigskiles]

Thanks for the reminder to keep it simple.

I've also noticed that with the clove hitch it is easy to adjust the rope length. I have more trouble doing that with the constrictor or with the un-named hitch above.


Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

[Bootboy]

Thanks for the reminder to keep it simple.

I've also noticed that with the clove hitch it is easy to adjust the rope length. I have more trouble doing that with the constrictor or with the un-named hitch above.


Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

So tie it right the first time. If it's only off by a little bit, does it really matter enough to have move it?
If it's off enough to be significant, you screwed up, retie it.

[pikan]

I'll just throw my vote in for the constrictor....it's effective, easy to tie (easier than the clove IMO....not that the clove is hard though ;) ), and even though it's a bit tougher to untie, it's really not too bad once you get the hang of it.

-Luke

[Bootboy]

I'll just throw my vote in for the constrictor....it's effective, easy to tie (easier than the clove IMO....not that the clove is hard though ;) ), and even though it's a bit tougher to untie, it's really not too bad once you get the hang of it.

-Luke

Amen

[hank moon]

Tom's ease of inspection point is also important for safety - any response to that from the constrictor fans?

[pikan]

Tom's ease of inspection point is also important for safety - any response to that from the constrictor fans?

The only hang up that I can see, is that it is close enough in appearance to the clove, that people will think it's a clove. And the difference may give people concern. I don't have much experience with the triple clove, but I imagine it's a similar story. Like with all knots, you have to know what to look for with each specific knot. But other than that, I think it's pretty easy to inspect.

[deagol]

It's easily releasable with any rope. But you have to tie it right. Clip the cross over so you are clipping three strands instead of just two. Once tightened it can easily be loosened if you work the knot to the corner of the biner.

do you have a picture of this ?

Thanks...
Bootboy,

I still can't picture what you mean when you say "Clip the cross over so you are clipping three strands instead of just two".

I practiced with the Constrictor hitch last night and compared it to the triple clove, but can't wrap my head around this statement...

What do you mean by "clipping the cross over" and can you post a picture?

Thanks in advance


Also, comparing the two hitches last night, I found the constrictor easier to tie and easy to inspect. I put body weight on it and even bounced a tad on it to tighten it as much as I could. It was definitely a bit harder to get out than the standard clove hitch, but not so much as to cause concern. Granted, this was just with my body weight without a pack, so not indicative of how tight it could tighten with a group rapping on it.

[Bootboy]

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/11/07/y3ysa7ah.jpg so once the hitch is tied, clip the side with three strands which in this picture is the top side.http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/11/07/e3ena8at.jpg

Basically, I'm referring to the side if the hitch that sits INSIDE the carabiner as the "clipped"'side of the knot.

[deagol]

so once the hitch is tied, clip the side with three strands which in this picture is the top side.

Basically, I'm referring to the side if the hitch that sits INSIDE the carabiner as the "clipped"'side of the knot.



Ahh, thank you !!!!
:2thumbs:
Cool, I already had it correct, but the wording made me think I was wrong.
Yes, I do like this hitch better than the triple clove. It's easy to tie and I don't have issues getting it to release. Holds really well, not hard to inspect IMO

[Bootboy]

Has anyone here used a pile hitch for a block?

Aka a Russian or a Sanhuex

I use it when building trad climbing anchors. It's a fantastic knot for dynamic rope but I've never thought about using it for a block.

[hikster11]

Bootboy
Just to be sure is this the knot you are referring too
http://www.animatedknots.com/constrictor/index.php?Categ=boating&LogoImage=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com

[Bootboy]

Yep, I tie it with the folding method described on that page.