Destroying Formations at Goblin Valley [Archive]

Bootboy

10-17-2013, 07:31 PM

Reminds me of the scout troop (I recognize that this group may not be scouts) about 12 years ago that broke up the dinosaur tracks at a Utah reservoir and threw them into the water. What the hell?!? It you're that bored, sit down and eat your boogers. Stupid derelict, idiot ill-raised people. Someone needs to get this video to the powers that be so that a fine can be issued. I've rolled my fair share of boulders but I have not destroyed unique formations in such a place as that. YouTube is such a bane to society in the hands of stupid people. How many idiots will watch this and get the same bright idea?
Stupid people will be the undoing of our civilization. Aarrrggghhhhhh!!!

DougInGJCO

10-17-2013, 07:38 PM

If it is 'just one' this time, how many more morons might the You Tube video inspire? Then who needs erosion any more when you've got brains and brawn like these. Maybe they will push mountains next?:fitz:

Scott Card

10-17-2013, 08:16 PM

Boy Scout leaders...:facepalm1:And you are making this statement based on what facts?????

Scott P

10-17-2013, 08:25 PM

And you are making this statement based on what facts?????

See the link to the article:

Glenn Taylor said Thursday afternoon that he was the man who pushed over the formation, while Dave Hall filmed and Dylan Taylor looked on. According to Taylor, he and Hall are leaders for a local troop of the Boy Scouts of America. Hall added that the men also were acting as Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints youth leaders.

(PS, I am also a scout leader. Leaders like this should be banned).

bowjunkie

10-17-2013, 08:29 PM

WOW!! :angryfire::angryfire::angryfire:

Scott Card

10-17-2013, 08:39 PM

See the link to the article:

Glenn Taylor said Thursday afternoon that he was the man who pushed over the formation, while Dave Hall filmed and Dylan Taylor looked on. According to Taylor, he and Hall are leaders for a local troop of the Boy Scouts of America. Hall added that the men also were acting as Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints youth leaders.

(PS, I am also a scout leader. Leaders like this should be banned). Thank you. Was this a scout outing?

Glenn

10-17-2013, 08:43 PM

As an Eagle Scout, I am ashamed and agree they should be banned. Maybe a word to my district leader can get the ball rolling.

Scott P

10-17-2013, 08:48 PM

Thank you. Was this a scout outing?

I'm not 100% sure, but some of the early FB post made it sound like it was a "youth trip". I think the original FB post have been removed or made private?

Weird that when they were interviewed, the person that pushed the rock over came out and said, "yeah, we're boy scout leaders". Was it to gain sympathy or something?:ne_nau:

rockgremlin

10-17-2013, 08:52 PM

Well...as long as they go to church on Sunday and pass the sacrament it's all good.

Scott Card

10-17-2013, 09:02 PM

Well...as long as they go to church on Sunday and pass the sacrament it's all good.
:roll:

rockgremlin

10-17-2013, 09:14 PM

:roll:

:haha:

in all seriousness, I'm not sure why the author of the article felt compelled to report which religion these redneck asshats belonged to. What does that have to do with anything? :ne_nau:

deagol

10-17-2013, 09:33 PM

:haha:

in all seriousness, I'm not sure why the author of the article felt compelled to report which religion these redneck asshats belonged to. What does that have to do with anything? :ne_nau:

Some of the comments posted after the Salt Lake Tribune article implied that the LDS church could help get these guys off the charges.

Scott Card

10-17-2013, 09:38 PM

Some of the comments posted after the Salt Lake Tribune article implied that the LDS church could help get these guys off the charges.:roflol: "Some of the comments posted implied...." :facepalm1:

accadacca

10-17-2013, 09:46 PM

The news story I saw said they were waiting for the boy scouts to comment on the act and that it was indeed a scout trip. I guess this Dave Hall guy has been on the news before too...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBgVFdlLjLo&feature=youtu.be

Bootboy

10-18-2013, 12:10 AM

oldno7

10-18-2013, 04:48 AM

oldno7

10-18-2013, 04:49 AM

A man who wears hair gel and a purple button up shirt has no business in the outdoors...

agreed--we need a law for this....

Wasatch Rebel

10-18-2013, 05:48 AM

From the news story: "Taylor said that at the time he thought he was doing a "civic service" by taking down a loose rock. However, as he walked back to his car, he began thinking that he should have contacted a ranger about the loose rock. "

Yep. Assuming he isn't lying about trying to keep it from falling on someone, the correct course of action would be to contact a "ranger" or whatever official works at state parks and let them handle it.

But I kind of don't like the "Boy Scout" leader comments. I've been a Scout leader before and have never done anything like this, and the men I worked with in the Scouts wouldn't have either. I have known some who would though, which just proves that it's the maturity versus the stupidity of the individual, not their status as a Scout leader that causes them to do something stupid.

Scott P

10-18-2013, 06:08 AM

in all seriousness, I'm not sure why the author of the article felt compelled to report which religion these redneck asshats belonged to. What does that have to do with anything? :ne_nau:

I assume because that's what the people who were interviewed or filmed the video emphasised on.

It seems like they were saying, "hey, we're youth leaders and Mormons, so it's OK" (as most know I am also a Mormon and youth leader).

I was the people who did the filming and were interviewed that were quick to point that out to the media. I have no idea why. Possibly to gain sympathy with the good ol' boys or something or to try and look positive since they live in a region with a lot of youth leaders and with a majority LDS? If this is the case, it sounds like it backfired.

If it were a different newspaper it could certainly be possible that it was intentionally mentioned to put youth leaders or Mormons in a bad light, but the Deseret News, where this article came from is directly owned by the LDS Church.

Even though I am LDS and a youth leader, I am glad that the article mentioned that the filmers were. While not exactly the same, too much of this kind of thing goes on with youth leaders and trips. Where I live some of the youth leaders have taught the scouts either in word or example somewhat similar things. Some of them have even said that Leave No Trace is a bunch of hooey.

DOSS

10-18-2013, 06:29 AM

Loose rock excuse? that is about as lame as everyone in Suncrest complaining that they moved into prime bobcat habitat and that there are bobcats everywhere that need to be removed... Nature, it involves some danger, let it stay that way when you remove natural selection you get idiots like this guy roaming the land...

Eric Holden

10-18-2013, 06:50 AM

Wow, what a POS! :angryfire:. I am embarrassed to be from the shirt that guy is wearing...San Diego. :chairshot:

JONBOYLEMON

10-18-2013, 06:54 AM

So first off, let me just gripe here, IF!!!!!! and its a big if cuz its real easy to judge not knowing everything about the story, but I bet IF they were on a Scout Trip, that IF the leaders were in uniform, and IF the boys were in uniform, that the would have just a little more responsibility!!!!!

As a mormon Scout Leader it really does get under my skin when we go out and find other Scout groups, that are probably mormon scout groups, and they look like the local soccer club went for a hike, and they camp & hike like the wilderness is there personal playground! I had one of our boys walk 2 miles back on the trail after he threw his water bottle down the trail when he was done with it. Yep, I saw him throw it, and thought at the time, what is the best way to handle this??? Well, it looked like a teaching oppurtunity to me and so I thought that teaching moment would be better taught a LONG WAYS AWAY!!!!!!!! So I did a water bottle check after a long walk down the trail, never had a littering problem after that!!!!!!!!

Say what you want about mormons, or any other faith, and Scouts, but when people look like they give a !@#$, they often actually do. So hopefully there can be lots of teachable moment about this and that some good can come from it. IF it was a Scout troop, I see a great Eagle Project possibilty to remedy this and possibly repair the damage, as well as some signage added to the park to make people aware of the damage that can be done when you are STUPID!

Scott P

10-18-2013, 07:26 AM

but I bet IF they were on a Scout Trip

It has been confirmed that they were on a scout trip.

rockgremlin

10-18-2013, 07:56 AM

If it were a different newspaper it could certainly be possible that it was intentionally mentioned to put youth leaders or Mormons in a bad light, but the Deseret News, where this article came from is directly owned by the LDS Church.

Huh? Original article came from the SL Tribune:http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/57012279-78/rock-taylor-formation-goblin.html.csp

Which makes sense...it seems at times the SL Trib delights in besmirching the reputation of the LDS church.

At any rate, these kids are staring down a possible 2nd degree felony charge. Ouch. Think it'll actually come to that?

mzamp

10-18-2013, 07:57 AM

Someone should topple him over because like the boulder he is standing on a foot that is only about 4 inches wide. Kids lives would be saved! :asshat:

JONBOYLEMON

10-18-2013, 08:05 AM

Hey guys, I am going to take our Scouts down to arches next month and we will be doing some service projects.

One of the main things we are going to be focusing on is knocking down all those delicate arches that could fall down at any moment. We made need some help. Any of the people here want to "HELP" out????

We may make this an Eagle Project for one of the boys!

Sheesh, the more I think about this, the madder I get!!!!!! I love Goblin Valley, and dangit, its MY PARK!!!!!!!!

Scott P

10-18-2013, 08:05 AM

Huh? Original article came from the SL Tribune:

Oops, sorry. You are correct. Early on, there were actually articles on KSL, Deseret News, and the Tribune, and apparently I got them mixed up.:oops:

Actually, as of this morning this is in many articles, and even hit international news.

At any rate, these kids are staring down a possible 2nd degree felony charge. Ouch. Think it'll actually come to that?

I admit that I kind of hope so. I don't kind of hope so to be mean, or to get revenge, or to ruin their lives, or because I am angry, but only because those with felony charges aren't allowed to be scout leaders.

Sandstone Addiction

10-18-2013, 08:14 AM

Just to clarify...my post at the beginning of the thread was a feeble attempt to show my frustration that this is yet another black eye for the Boy Scouts in general. The Scouting organization has certainly been in the spot light lately, and unfortunately, not for all the good things that come of it.

ststephen

10-18-2013, 08:20 AM

This excuse about "saving a kid's life" sure sounds like something made up after the fact. Of course it would be no excuse even if that was their initial motive. But, come on: You are looking at removing a hazard and then say "oh, this would also be a good time to make a YouTube video complete with little songs, high-fives and laughing our asses off". Right.

They decided to be vandals, but since it's just rocks and mud formations in a park they figured it was OK. I hope they and their troop suffer some real consequences. I doubt these 3 will learn anything (clearly they're already entrenched in a culture of denial and revisionist history). But spreading the knowledge that defacing natural features is never OK is a good thing. Maybe some more mature members of their troop will get that message. I'm also guessing it will spark some debate and discussion in their troop.

BruteForce

10-18-2013, 09:05 AM

Fat slob idiots! I don't care whom they purport to represent.. I've been to Goblin Valley a few times and NEVER, EVER did it occur to me that perhaps we should tip over the formations! :angryfire:

Slot Machine

10-18-2013, 09:16 AM

Room for more stupid people is rare on the CNN homepage, but these fellas made the cut.

www.cnn.com (http://www.cnn.com)

Glenn

10-18-2013, 09:35 AM

Room for more stupid people is rare on the CNN homepage, but these fellas made the cut.

www.cnn.com (http://www.cnn.com)

...and USA Today
http://www.usatoday.com/media/cinematic/video/3008447/ancient-rock-destroyed-by-giddy-trio/

Scott P

10-18-2013, 09:37 AM

As I mentioned early, it's even in international news. Telegraph from the UK:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/10387792/Scout-leaders-film-themselves-vandalising-Utahs-Goblin-Valley.html

Tystevens

10-18-2013, 09:54 AM

At any rate, these kids are staring down a possible 2nd degree felony charge. Ouch. Think it'll actually come to that?

Kids? These looked like full-grown adults to me.

I mean, I am in fear that my scouts are going to do something like this on a trip (we, like most groups, have a couple kids who are not so good at thinking before they act, or worse, trying to do something crazy to get attention), but to think that leaders would be the one's responsible for this action is amazing. That they would film it, boast about it, and post it on line is actually hard to believe!

I hope they are charged, and get to spend their next 10-15 Saturdays doing community service, hopefully cleaning up some actual hazards!

rockgremlin

10-18-2013, 10:37 AM

I admit that I kind of hope so. I don't kind of hope so to be mean, or to get revenge, or to ruin their lives, or because I am angry, but only because those with felony charges aren't allowed to be scout leaders.

Absolutely.

Malignant vandalism to this degree deserves a very stiff backhand. And if nothing else, to make an example out of them that illustrates to the world the consequences of such idiotic behavior.

oldno7

10-18-2013, 11:56 AM

Agree, Rock. These guys need to be prosecuted AND serve whatever time the law allows, for nothing more than to serve notice, STUPID HURT'S.

cchoc

10-18-2013, 12:15 PM

Agree, Rock. These guys need to be prosecuted AND serve whatever time the law allows, for nothing more than to serve notice, STUPID HURT'S.

Absolutely, this behavior is beyond dumb. :crazycobasa:

Kuya

10-18-2013, 12:22 PM

A friend of mine posted this and I think it makes a lot of sense.

"So a lot of people are upset about a couple of fat dudes pushing over a rock in Goblin Valley... like really upset.

It's a rock. Eventually wind and rain would have done the same thing. They "might" face felony charges... for pushing on a rock... let me list a few other things that are felonies:

bestiality
child molestation
cooking meth inside of a school lunchroom
beating an old woman with a lead pipe
kidnapping a nun

let me list some things that are not felonies:

beating your wife
stealing from the store
peeing on someone's leg in public
defecating on a cop car
and...pushing over a different rock.

it's a rock, not a disabled, defenseless child. Let's get over it."

https://www.facebook.com/THEN1GHTMANCOMETH/posts/10151699940233693

reverse_dyno

10-18-2013, 01:01 PM

it's a rock, not a disabled, defenseless child. Let's get over it."

Low probability of getting caught requires a long jail sentence to prevent people from doing it.

One reason for such a harsh penalty is that it is almost impossible to catch the people that actually vandalize our great outdoors. To make up for that penalties need to be extremely draconian. Defecating on a cop car will most likely be noticed by the cop and the cop can then arrest the person. The only reason we know about this particular incident is because the vandals were dumb enough to video and then post what they did. I have gone hiking countless times and seen rocks vandalized in Southern Utah, but have never seen anyone do it.

rockgremlin

10-18-2013, 01:17 PM

A friend of mine posted this and I think it makes a lot of sense...blah blah blah...

Nice troll...:roflol:

Slot Machine

10-18-2013, 02:24 PM

A friend of mine posted this and I think it makes a lot of sense.

Please, PLEASE, do not take this friend canyoneering.

:haha:

oldno7

10-18-2013, 02:40 PM

It's a rock. Eventually wind and rain would have done the same thing.

"It's a rock---

So are the Teton's
Angels Landing
Rainbow Bridge
Fiery Furnace
Any arch in Arches NP
The Maze
need I go on?

Lot's of "just rocks" will certainly erode in their due time, it's not your "friends" job to accelerate the process.

Kuya

10-18-2013, 02:43 PM

Please, PLEASE, do not take this friend canyoneering.

:haha:

HAHA, no I think he would be fine coming canyoneering with me. I do agree with him in this. Why is it that people can beat their wives, and do other horrific things and NOT get punished as severely as someone who scratches or rolls a rock?

Now, don't get me wrong. I don't advocate ruining our beautiful landscapes at all, I think appropriate punishments should be given, but I don't think that anyone should be made a felon because they pushed over a ROCK. I DEFINITELY think these guys in this video should get punished. not the least of the punishments should be banishment from the National and State Parks. But really, convinced as a Felon? really?

Lets now add ROCK ROLLLING to this TOP of this list :crazy:

Felonies include but are not limited to the following:

Murder
Rape
Aggravated assault and/or battery
Manslaughter
Vehicular homicide
Arson
Burglary
Tax evasion
Various forms of fraud
The manufacture, sale, distribution, or possession with intent to distribute of certain types and/or quantities of illegal drugs
In some states, the simple possession (possession without intent to distribute, e.g., for personal use) of certain types of illegal drugs, usually in more than a certain quantity but regardless of quantity for some drugs in some jurisdictions (such as Virginia for cocaine and heroin)
Grand larceny or grand theft, i.e., larceny or theft above a certain statutorily established value or quantity of goods
Vandalism on federal property.
Treason
Kidnapping
Obstruction of justice
Perjury
Cheque fraud
Copyright infringement
Child pornography (also includes only viewing pictures);
Mail tampering
Theft of money over a certain amount
Violating parole, probation, or recognizance bond
Threatening an official (police officer, judge)

deagol

10-18-2013, 02:49 PM

describing this act as merely "pushing over a rock" is misleading.
Wanton vandalism of public property would be better.

ststephen

10-18-2013, 03:00 PM

The "it's a rock" argument has no basis. The "there are other worse felonies" argument has no basis.

Most states have laws against Malicious Destruction of Property as well as Vandalism. The former is often a felony and the latter a misdemeanor. The motivation for making Malicious Destruction of Property a felony is that it is not based on some heat of the moment lack of judgement but a premeditated choice to destroy property of significant value. Of course it's not as severe as rape or murder, but not all felonies are penalized equally either.

It's clear to me that this is a case of MDoP. They thought about it, executed it and celebrated the act of destruction. Is a natural feature greater than $250 value (e.g. the value used in some states)? Think of a man-made park. The bench, water fountain, statue, etc. etc. are all more than $250. The sign on the bathroom or toilet roll dispenser probably less. Yep, this is of the former category: a sizable feature of the park.

Sorry, but it feels worthy of a felony to me.

rockgremlin

10-18-2013, 04:37 PM

Pointing out that there are other, more deplorable acts in this world do not justify your misdeeds...

O.J. Simpson: "Your honor, I would like to point out that Hitler was responsible for the mass murder of millions of innocent people, therefore I believe my actions shouldn't warrant a punishment." :crazy:

accadacca

10-18-2013, 06:07 PM

Watch for this video on the next episode of the worlds dumbest criminals.

accadacca

10-18-2013, 08:19 PM

http://img.ksl.com/slc/2511/251153/25115341.jpg

Men behind Goblin Valley video receive death threats, hate mail

HIGHLAND

Byron

10-18-2013, 08:40 PM

If these guys were smart, they would strike a deal with Emery before they bring charges...volunteering to do something as a penance. I've read that they should have the rock put back where it was, but getting equipment back there may be impossible.

Death threats, eh? I think their BS excuse of "saving someone's life" didn't quite fly. Oh well, regardless of how this all plays out, I would reckon they've learned a lesson...unless they were born with damaged brains, which is a possibility. Ya know, like OJ Simpson..."I don't care what anyone thinks, screw you".

I would imagine the Sheriff in Emery County is getting a lot of emails and phone calls right now.

deagol

10-19-2013, 08:33 AM

pathetic excuse at backpedaling. Anyone who watches their video should not buy their excuse.

Sombeech

10-19-2013, 11:19 AM

We were very close to taking the scouts to Goblin Valley this weekend, and Little Wild Horse Canyon but we cancelled at the last moment.

I'm a little more responsible than to damage the environment like this, but let's say I wasn't.

I could have chiseled my name into the slot canyon wall, or pushed over rocks just like these clowns. And, anybody who's been there knows that this type of thing has been done in the past (before you get all huffy, I'm not excusing it), it just wasn't recorded and uploaded to YouTube. But to link it to anything that the LDS Church teaches or how they're involved, or to any responsibility of the BSA (and how much of a tax break they get) is ridiculous.

When I hear anybody say regarding this incident that the LDS Church or BSA "needs to change ________" ..... First off, these organizations don't NEED TO change anything! They are already teaching respect for the environment, and the State Park has posted rules against this type of behavior. They just need to release them of their duty and let the justice system do it's job.

So the organizations, nor Goblin Valley State Park, don't "need to" change any of their regulations, qualifications, punishments, screening process.... I have no "priors" on my record, but if I for some reason decided to do what this clown did, neither organization could possibly have any blame because of their lack of emphasis on environmental respect. What a crazy concept to suggest they share blame in this. I'm an individual and I could still act like this blatantly in the face of anything I'd been advised.

With the felony requests, probably a little harsh. It's a state park. I'm not excusing what they did, but it's the same as when somebody says about a child molester "they should hang them upside down by their balls and then mutilate this and that and...." but in reality the laws must be followed. So leaving the emotional Felony charge, and even the death threats out of it, these guys will get what they deserve according to the law. They are already starting to pay a huge price, now internationally, for what they've done.

And... I think this has discouraged a lot of would be vandals because of the huge consequences. So, some good has come of this.

Reedus

10-19-2013, 07:55 PM

it seems at times the SL Trib delights in besmirching the reputation of the LDS church.

Kinda like Rockgremlin here on Bogley. Always ready to pounce and take jabs at anything LDS related

Reedus

10-19-2013, 08:05 PM

A friend of mine posted this and I think it makes a lot of sense.

You should invite Andrew over here and let him make his case. The kid loves a good debate

rockgremlin

10-20-2013, 08:48 AM

Kinda like Rockgremlin here on Bogley. Always ready to pounce and take jabs at anything LDS related

Just doin' my job.

Trollin' aint easy but it's necessary....so I'm chasin' frownies like Tom chases Jerry....:cool2:

DOSS

10-20-2013, 05:23 PM

Looks like the fine upstanding guy who pushed the rock over has permanent debilitating injury's.. well at least that is in the lawsuit he filed last month.. this guy keeps getting better
http://www.4utah.com/story/goblin-toppler-cites-debilitating-injuries-prior-to-viral-video/d/story/YKY2b3A52UydGV_Dne9fOg

ALPINE, Utah (ABC 4 Utah) – The man who is seen toppling over a goblin in Central Utah in a viral video online is found to have filed a personal injury lawsuit a month before the incident in which he said he has permanent and debilitating injuries.

Glenn Taylor, a Boy Scout troop leader, pushed over the massive rock at Goblin Valley State Park a week ago. Taylor filed the personal injury lawsuit last month.

The video posted on Facebook went viral and created uproar from the public. The formations are tens of millions of years old.

The men claimed they were protecting people from the fragile rock. In an interview with ABC News, Taylor said he toppled the goblin for safety reasons.

But Alan Macdonald isn’t buying it.

“I was just highly offended to see somebody act that way,” Macdonald said.

Macdonald doesn’t know Taylor, but he is being sued by him. Macdonald’s daughter was in a car accident and hit Taylor in 2009. Roughly four years later, Taylor is suing Macdonald and his daughter for personal injuries.

“In the video I see a big strong guy who steps up to a 2,000 pound rock and dislodges it and I just think to myself, that guy doesn’t have a bad back,” Macdonald said.

In the lawsuit, Taylor said he endured “great pain and suffering, disability, impairment, loss of life" from the car accident has incurred an estimated $5,000 in medical related expenses.

“Somebody with a bad back who is disabled who can’t enjoy life to me doesn’t step up and push a rock right off it’s base,” Macdonald said.

Macdonald said so many people have seen the now infamous video he wonders if Taylor will have second thoughts about suing his family.

Utah State Park officials said the men in the video could face federal charges for their actions.

Taylor also told ABC News he has some regrets.

“The Boy Scouts didn’t teach me to do this,” Taylor said. “Would I do it again? Yes, with a ranger standing there. That’s what we should have done.”

Several attempts to reach Taylor and his attorney for comment on the personal injury lawsuit were not immediately returned.

Felicia

10-20-2013, 07:34 PM

^^^ :facepalm1:

hank moon

10-21-2013, 06:18 AM

i doubt that this was a malicious act. more likely they did it for fun and the kind of fame you get on YOuTube, so where's the malice in that? We've all done stupid, idiotic stuff w/o drawing public attention. Yay! for anonymous stupidity?

Q : what is the moral/ethical (not legal) difference between going out every weekend and deepening rope grooves on trade canyon routes in a national park vs. toppling a rock in a state park? Asking does not imply that there is no difference...

Scott P

10-21-2013, 06:48 AM

more likely they did it for fun and the kind of fame you get on YOuTube

Agree.

We've all done stupid, idiotic stuff w/o drawing public attention.

For sure.

what is the moral/ethical (not legal) difference between going out every weekend and deepening rope grooves on trade canyon routes in a national park

Intent?

If they were scrambling around and accidentally knocked over the rock it would be different than going over and pushing it over on purpose, even though the results are the same.

Same with a rope groove. If someone were to go out and intentionally create one just for fun or for youtube fame, it may be different than creating one on accident.

This does bring up a good point though that everyone has probably impacted the outdoors in some way and should look at changing their own behavior.

DOSS

10-21-2013, 07:05 AM

i doubt that this was a malicious act. more likely they did it for fun and the kind of fame you get on YOuTube, so where's the malice in that? We've all done stupid, idiotic stuff w/o drawing public attention. Yay! for anonymous stupidity?

Q : what is the moral/ethical (not legal) difference between going out every weekend and deepening rope grooves on trade canyon routes in a national park vs. toppling a rock in a state park? Asking does not imply that there is no difference...

based on the recent news about his disability lawsuit it seems like this guy has some character issues that lead me to believe that he would do it knowing he shouldn't just cuz he thought he could get away with it.

as for rope grooves VS intentionally toppling a rock one is a byproduct and is not intended to destroy (and most of us do try to mitigate this) and one was an intentional act of destruction with no mitigation :)

Scott P

10-21-2013, 08:25 AM

PS,

It is likely that if the people pushing over the rock expressed remorse and admitted a mistake, instead of keep insisting that they did the right thing, then it is likely that this would have blown over very quickly.

rockgremlin

10-21-2013, 08:56 AM

i doubt that this was a malicious act. more likely they did it for fun and the kind of fame you get on YOuTube, so where's the malice in that? We've all done stupid, idiotic stuff w/o drawing public attention. Yay! for anonymous stupidity?

Q : what is the moral/ethical (not legal) difference between going out every weekend and deepening rope grooves on trade canyon routes in a national park vs. toppling a rock in a state park? Asking does not imply that there is no difference...

Wait a second....just so I get this straight....you're condoning his actions because they may in some way be comparable to canyoneers making rope grooves?

Before you answer that consider this: rope grooves will be mitigated over time. Consistent wind and water erosion will erase rope grooves.....time and erosion WILL NOT put that rock back on that pedestal.

Rope grooves = temporary. Goblin Valley vandalism = permanent.

C'mon Hank, is this a troll? Are you serious? Anybody who gets out and enjoys the redrock should by appalled by his kid's actions. Otherwise, why not go tip over Balanced Rock, Delicate Arch or Landscape Arch in the name of "stupid?" Your flippancy towards this issue is surprising.

Scott P

10-21-2013, 08:59 AM

C'mon Hank, is this a troll?

Maybe Hank should clarify, but I read it as something along the lines of let he who is without sin cast the first stone, rather than a defense of their actions. It was also framed in the form of a question.

Reedus

10-21-2013, 09:06 AM

, why not go tip over Delicate Arch?"

I already tried. Wasn't strong enough. It would take at least 2 guys to push it over

Glenn

10-21-2013, 09:15 AM

i doubt that this was a malicious act. more likely they did it for fun and the kind of fame you get on YOuTube, so where's the malice in that? We've all done stupid, idiotic stuff w/o drawing public attention. Yay! for anonymous stupidity?

Well, the legal definition of malice differs from that which we think of in terms of personal interaction. It can be interpreted to mean any conscious violation of the law without just cause.

But here's where these guys actually might have some legal defense. I've visited the GVSP website and scoured the 'net for any wording or pictures of signs that state - explicitly or implicitly - NOT to hike, stand, push, or otherwise modify the formations. I haven't found any. The website shows nothing. One picture of a sign at the park shows this:
70143

Can I climb on the goblins?

Exploring is a big part of the park experience, however, we do not recommend climbing on the goblins. Rock surfaces may be unstable; the most common accidents in the park are falls. Remember, Goblin Valley is extremely remote and a long way from medical services. Hike at your own risk.

Does hiking on the goblins destroy them?

People do have an effect on the Goblin Valley landscape. To better understand how much of an impact we have, the park is implementing a long-term erosion study. The study will be comparing erosion rates in high traffic areas to erosion rates in low traffic areas. With this information we hope to balance visitor recreation and park protection in the future.

So, it doesn't say, "No" to the first question. And it doesn't state anywhere about pushing them over.

I'm not offering this as an excuse, just a possible legal defense that might be used.

Q : what is the moral/ethical (not legal) difference between going out every weekend and deepening rope grooves on trade canyon routes in a national park vs. toppling a rock in a state park? Asking does not imply that there is no difference...

I think their act has more in common with climbers who chisel out handholds or add new bolts where prohibited. If the grooves are already there, a responsible visitor would avoid using them in favor of a LNT option, unless safety was an issue.

Another analogy might be accidental vs. intentional disregard or destruction or cryptobiotic soil. The erosion effects are well-documented (can last dozens or hundreds of years before a destroyed area is reclaimed), but the damage isn't usually apparent to the perpetrator.

rockgremlin

10-21-2013, 10:23 AM

Great post Glenn, Thanks. All I can say is.......here come the fences.

accadacca

10-21-2013, 11:33 AM

I was just down at Natural Bridges over the weekend. I took this in the visitors center of good ole Zeke Johnson. I guess these scout leaders should be sent down this direction. That formation looks VERY dangerous! :naughty:

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/22/sa3yva2u.jpg

accadacca

10-21-2013, 11:43 AM

Men who toppled Goblin Valley rock removed as Boy Scout leaders

Two men involved in toppling an ancient boulder in Goblin Valley State Park were kicked out of Boy Scout leadership positions Monday.

David Hall and Glenn Taylor will no longer serve as leaders in the Utah National Parks Council, according to a news release from the Boy Scouts of America. The decision comes from the council leadership, which referred to the men’s behavior as "reprehensible" and a violation of the scout principle of "leave no trace."

The men drew worldwide attention to themselves after they posted a video of Taylor pushing over a rock formation in the state park. Hall shot the video and posted it to Facebook. The video later spread to Youtube and was picked up by dozens of news sites and discussion forums.

John Gailey, executive director for the National Parks Council, said leaders have been discussing the incident since the video surfaced last week. The decision to removed the men came over the weekend following conversations with park leaders, the Attorney General’s Office and the LDS Church, which sponsors the troop, Gailey added.

According to Gailey, Taylor was serving as a unit leader, meaning he was responsible for running the scouting program in his area. Gailey did not immediately know Hall’s leadership position.

Both men have told The Salt Lake Tribune that the rock was loose and a safety hazard, which they fixed by knocking over.

The Boy Scouts disagree. In the news release, council leadership expressed shock and disappointment over the men’s actions. It also describes them as isolated incidents that are "absolutely counter to our beliefs and what we teach."

Gailey reiterated Monday that Hall and Taylor’s actions "definitely didn’t represent scouting or our focus on outdoor conservation."

Hall said Monday that Boy Scout leaders talked to him about the decision and he understands why it was made. Hall expressed support for the decision and the Boy Scouts’ mission. He added that he plans to use the incident as a learning experience.

Taylor did not immediately return calls seeking comment.

Source: http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/57025473-78/hall-taylor-gailey-leaders.html.csp

Scott P

10-21-2013, 12:08 PM

^^^^
I am glad the people have been released from their leadership positions. I hope this incident doesn't ruin their lives and that others aren't out for blood (the death threats the people have received are out of line), but I think that releasing them from their leadership rules was appropriate.

I guess these scout leaders should be sent down this direction. That formation looks VERY dangerous! :naughty:

That was already pulled down by a Jeep and a chain years ago, but I'm guessing that you already knew this?

owenfw

10-21-2013, 12:47 PM

Ironically, the Utah National Parks Council was offering a 16-hour Leave No Trace training course just this past weekend.

This certainly doesn't help the perception of LDS-sponsored BSA troops being kind of half-a**ed since the "call" to serve precedes any training and usually no training ever happens afterwards either for the vast majority of adult advisers. I wonder how many adult advisers even know that there is a youth Leave No Trace trainer position that can/should be filled in each Varsity team.

oldno7

10-21-2013, 05:37 PM

i doubt that this was a malicious act. more likely they did it for fun and the kind of fame you get on YOuTube, so where's the malice in that? We've all done stupid, idiotic stuff w/o drawing public attention. Yay! for anonymous stupidity?

Q : what is the moral/ethical (not legal) difference between going out every weekend and deepening rope grooves on trade canyon routes in a national park vs. toppling a rock in a state park? Asking does not imply that there is no difference...

There is no difference hank. All commoners should know to stay off the king's land.....I say to the rack with him. http://www.medievality.com/the-rack-torture.html

Sombeech

10-21-2013, 06:42 PM

Well, the legal definition of malice differs from that which we think of in terms of personal interaction. It can be interpreted to mean any conscious violation of the law without just cause....

Interesting post, Glenn.

This could actually put to rest all of the "Felony" screams for justice. They didn't break any park rules, just suggestions (along with going against respect of the environment, countless other things, but no clear rule or LAW was broken).

I see the only legal trouble that guy could be in for is insurance fraud.

Scott P

10-21-2013, 07:47 PM

They didn't break any park rules

Actually they did. Glenn only shows a picture of the sign at the picnic area.

Here is the pamphlet they pass out when you access the park:

http://www.castlecountry.com/media/uploads/files/Goblin-Valley-State-Park-Brochure.pdf

Vandalism- It is unlawful to mutilate or deface any natural
or constructed feature or structure. Please help keep our
parks beautiful.

I think the above is clear in that they actually did break the law.

rockgremlin

10-21-2013, 09:12 PM

This could actually put to rest all of the "Felony" screams for justice.

The "felony" they committed wasn't decreed by Bogley.com, but by the legal system that you and I and everyone else currently lives under.

Misdemeanors don't make international news.

Glenn

10-21-2013, 09:54 PM

Actually they did. Glenn only shows a picture of the sign at the picnic area.

Here is the pamphlet they pass out when you access the park:

http://www.castlecountry.com/media/uploads/files/Goblin-Valley-State-Park-Brochure.pdf

I think the above is clear in that they actually did break the law.

I didn't see anything about vandalism...maybe that was in the upside-down section. <joking>:mrgreen:

Seriously, I'm glad to see that is in print and I'm all for felony prosecutions if the law allows. I suspect that new signage will be going up soon to put no doubt in visitors' minds that any kind of vandalism is illegal. A shame it will come to that.

Sombeech

10-22-2013, 07:56 AM

Just to play Devil's Advocate, is there a written law about toppling boulders in the park?

And, is this a Federal Law? State Law? Or just a park rule?

One would have to first focus on exactly which law was broken in order to then seek justice for that broken law.

Some may think I'm taking their side, on the contrary. When these type of emotional prosecutions are rushed into without having the facts, the defendant can walk free if the prosecution pushed for the harshest felony available, when it was not sustainable.

JONBOYLEMON

10-22-2013, 08:00 AM

If I was the bonehead who did it, and I am going to make some assumtions here, but being from Highland, he probably has some $, If I was the guy, I would be working with the state on a plan to get a small piece of equipment in there, or a lifting system etc, and I would dowell the pillar the rock was broken off of, and I would dowell the rock, and then I would grout the rock back onto the pillar. With some work, you could make it look almost as good as new.

We use this method at work alot to connect old concrete to new concrete. You could mix sandstone dust with the epoxy and it would be hard to tell where the repair was made!!!!!

That would be restitution and also be a good example for the boys this guy was "Leading"

Would be a real good scout outing!!!!

PS, I think a felony charge is a bit much, but whatever happens, I hope LOTS of people learn from this, and I will say it again, I bet if they were in the Scout Uniform, I bet they would have not done this!!!!!! But when you look like some old guys with a bunch of young boys, you just look like pediphiles, not Scout Masters.

Scott P

10-22-2013, 08:05 AM

Just to play Devil's Advocate, is there a written law about toppling boulders in the park?

Wouldn't the "boulder" be considered a natural feature?

It is unlawful to mutilate or deface any natural or constructed feature or structure.

Or just a park rule?

I believe just a park rule, but also a law that you have to follow it.

If it is a first offense, I doubt it is going to end up as a felony.

If I was the bonehead who did it, and I am going to make some assumtions here, but being from Highland, he probably has some $, If I was the guy, I would be working with the state on a plan to get a small piece of equipment in there, or a lifting system etc, and I would dowell the pillar the rock was broken off of, and I would dowell the rock, and then I would grout the rock back onto the pillar. With some work, you could make it look almost as good as new.

Nah, too late for that. The above would probably do more harm than good.

JONBOYLEMON

10-22-2013, 08:07 AM

If they can build pyramids with slaves, I bet a guy could get the formation back together with some creativity.

hank moon

10-22-2013, 08:54 AM

re: repairing the damage. A good thought, but would probably increase the park's liability. Left alone, it might function as a minor monument to casual stupidity. Hey, I want to go see it right now!

bretmaverick999

10-22-2013, 12:37 PM

Scott P

10-22-2013, 01:52 PM

I can find plenty on the BSA supporting LNT but I did't find where the leaders and the scouts were required to take LNT training.

As far as I know, you are only required to take it if you are in a paid scout position, but volunteer leaders are not required. When I was in a paid scout position I had to take it, but never as a volunteer.

I think it should be required for all leaders before leading campouts and outdoor activities.

Sandstone Addiction

10-22-2013, 02:01 PM

Requirement #2 for 2nd Class:

Discuss the principles of Leave No Trace (http://meritbadge.org/wiki/index.php/Leave_No_Trace).

Scott P

10-22-2013, 02:20 PM

^^^^

Good start for sure :2thumbs:, but a quick discussion isn't quite the same as training, in my opinion. It's still better than nothing though and a good start.

The training we had to do was in conjunction with the forest service and was much more in depth.

Sandstone Addiction

10-22-2013, 09:01 PM

I found this LNT webpage on the BSA website (http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/boyscouts/teachingleavenotrace.aspx). I couldn't find anything on the BSA website about when it was appropriate to become educated on LNT, or that it was even required (say for those involved with an outing beyond pavement, seemed to be more of a suggestion). The Boy Scout | Utah National Parks Council Official Blog (http://blog.utahscouts.org/news/boy-scouts-of-america-utah-national-parks-council-statement-on-goblin-valley-incident/) mentions "we teach our youth and adult members the principals of LNT". None of the comments there give any clue if LNT education is required or not. When is it appropriate to start learning LNT principals, when you start learning about religion? Should you be required to be review it periodically? I can find plenty on the BSA supporting LNT but I did't find where the leaders and the scouts were required to take LNT training. I was pleased to see the BSA give the leaders the boot but what I was really looking for was "the leaders and scouts received LNT training XX months ago, and because of this incident we will now require all off pavement activity participants to repeat it yearly".

It took me a while to remember which training session covered LNT.

Every Scout Leader that is fully trained should have completed IOLS (Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills). It is not optional. This training covers LNT principles pretty well. Certainly not as much as Scott's hands on training.

UNP Council---- https://utahscouts.doubleknot.com/new-leader-training/north-star-training/21984

Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills (IOLS) Training

AKA: North Star Training

Course Overview

Outdoor skills are critical to the success of the Scouting program. This course is ideal because it focuses on skills that build confidence and competence in leaders conducting outdoor camping experiences
Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills (IOLS)--often called "North Star" in our council--is an overnight camping experience that gives adult leaders the hands-on practical outdoor skills that they need to lead Scouts in the out-of-doors. IOLS North Star training is the final course required for Scoutmasters (& Assistants), Varsity Coaches (& Assistants), and Venturing Crew Advisors (& Assistants) to be considered "Trained" by the BSA. .

IOLS North Star should be taken after completing Youth Protection and Leader-specific training.
WHAT WILL BE COVERED: A "hands-on training" to give adults and adult leaders the practical skills necessary to successfully lead Scouts in out-of door activities. Some of those skills include setting up campsites, pitching tents, hiking, outdoor cooking, knot tying, whipping ropes, lashings, the correct handling of woods tools, using Leave No Trace guidelines, putting on an interfaith worship service, setting up campfire programs, selecting proper gear & equipment, fire building, first-aid, using a map & compass, and other pertinent skills (related to the outdoors) – to the skill level of a First Class Scout.

National--- Page 85

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/training/pdf/IOLS_33640.pdf

Sombeech

10-23-2013, 06:23 AM

JONBOYLEMON

10-23-2013, 07:21 AM

Amen Beech!!!!!

Same thing happens when people from the DWR poach or break the rules in the Uintas. Theres a dope in every town!

Scott P

10-23-2013, 08:05 AM

Here's the potential issues with mandatory Leave No Trace training:

I could sit through course after course after training after exercise on LNT, and could still make the conscious decision to be an assclown and show how cool I am for the kids by knocking over some big rocks.

Maybe so, but I still think that it would help. It would also help eliminate excuses.

Most of the violations with scouts really aren't about pushing over rock formations, but from lack of supervision, group size, big fires, etc. In redneckville, add leaving bullet shells all over the place to the list.

Some scoutmasters I've known didn't even know that you weren't supposed to cut switchbacks, to saw live tree branches, or to build big bonfires in the backcountry. I don't think they were violating rules on purpose, but they really didn't know.

And by making LNT training courses a strict qualification, maybe it would somewhat limit the amount of willing, responsible leaders that would volunteer their time and personal paid off days from work to take these young men and introduce them to the great outdoors.

It seems that most people that actually step forward volunteer actually have a knowledge of the outdoors and most likely a basic knowledge of LNT principles. However, in the LDS church, you are usually assigned to be a scout leader, and rarely do the scout leaders step up and just volunteer.

This is not meant to be a criticism against those LDS since I myself am LDS and I have been a scout leader for most of my adult life, but from experience I can say the above with assurity. Some do volunteer. In fact that's just what I did even though I have a calling in the bishopric. I won't be specific, but I did so because I had some serious concerns about some of the things that were going on.

LNT training really doesn't take that much time. I still stand by my opinion that it should be mandatory.

Sombeech

10-23-2013, 11:32 AM

Yeah, the LNT training definitely has value, no doubt. It's good info to give and I don't think any bad could come of it. Making it mandatory could be tricky though. For the most part it would be a plus, but sometimes making things mandatory before somebody volunteers may discourage the participation in the end. After all, the BSA already awards the boys (merit badges) for practicing such things, so the incentive is there. I don't think much change if any will be coming down from BSA other than dismissing irresponsible people from their positions. So in the end it comes down to the BSA disciplining the offenders, and the Justice system prosecuting on any solid laws that were broken. But no amount of regulation, training, paperwork or background checks could stop me from carving "AC/DC RULEZ" into the wall of Little Wild Horse Canyon.

Sandstone Addiction

10-23-2013, 12:26 PM

I think LNT is an concept that will just take time to implement. Although I do believe that the pendulum is swinging in the right direction.

Heck, I'm guilty (sadly) of all the things Scott mentioned above and more in the past. Not necessarily with Scouting though. We simply didn't know and were too stupid to figure it out for ourselves.

I have since reformed and am a big proponent of LNT and it is discussed with every Scout event we do. Like just the other day when my 11 year old Scouts hiked to the Y in Provo. I made it a point to discuss staying on the trail and helping other hikers have a pleasant experience before we got out of the Tahoe. The boys did just as they were asked and I was very proud of them.

owenfw

10-24-2013, 07:01 AM

Scott Card

10-24-2013, 08:24 AM

.......the quite rare "Trained" patch. This one is better.70257 There is even a patch for Mr. Tom Jones!70258

Sombeech

10-24-2013, 02:30 PM

A big problem with LDS BSA is that the only required training is Youth Protection. It would be safe to bet these guys had no training whatsoever and were just making it up as they went along because that's how the majority of troops/teams/crews in the council are run.

It's true that training isn't really pushed through the LDS side, but let's take the following into consideration:

Without LDS involvement in scouts, you then have roughly the same amount of male youth who want to go camping, but are probably not affiliated with the scouting program. The youth are going to go camping and get outdoors, no matter what organization. But maybe this way they have SOME training rather than just a bunch of 16 year old unsupervised teenagers that are hanging out with their cool uncle out in the desert.

Unfortunately, this would still be the case in some of the very tiny minority of incidents similar to the original post, no matter if it's BSA sponsored, LDS sponsored, LSD sponsored, Al Gore's Baby Polar Bear Protectors sponsored, or Squirrel Worship Anonymous sponsored.

Consider the benefits to the scouting program of having involvement from the LDS Church;

A building to meet in rather than finding somebody's house or renting a facility, hence limiting funds for other activities
Plenty of adult volunteers as leaders
Our whole scout troop can either walk or ride their bike to the meeting place, rather than drive greater distances because of sparse participation in the scouting program, which would eliminate most boys over time
Greater experience with the scouting program in the average LDS neighborhood, because most have been a leader at some point and are available as a scouting resource
More availability to shared camping gear among the various scouting groups within the same ward or stake
LDS membership is NOT required to join the program, no matter what "impression" somebody may give or whatever rumor heard, or what somebody heard what somebody's uncle said that can't be confirmed and how somebody's feelers got hurt.

Some will have plenty of grievances about the LDS Church, their beliefs, views on Gay Marriage, or keeping multiple wives chained to the stove. But no Mormon indoctrination should ever be mixed in with the scouting program. If it does, well dammit you have the freedom to say "I'd appreciate it if we stuck to the scouting agenda today". And if somebody wants to preach about scripture during the meeting, they're an idiot and the whole complete LDS Church shouldn't be blamed for ramming gospel down your throats and you shouldn't start a protest to ban LDS involvement from the scouting program, just because you didn't have the balls to tell that one idiot that you'd just like to focus on the scouting agenda for the boys' sake.

The bottom line is, the LDS organization adds an immense amount of resource and value to the scouting program, and if somebody wants to demand this and that be done and what the LDS Church needs to do now and how and when regarding training and qualifications and background checks and blah blah blah, they need to step back and realize that the BSA is in charge of regulations and training, and the LDS Church is just being the generous organization saying "Here, go ahead and see if you can use what we have to offer."

Take your kids out of the scouting program because you don't agree with some weird thing about the Mormons, and it's the kids who suffer.

This rant was NOT pointed at anybody specific. :cool2:

Bootboy

10-25-2013, 01:55 AM

Tell us how you really feel sombeech. Haha! I agree.

owenfw

10-25-2013, 11:18 PM

I get what you're saying, sombeech, but at some point if the training isn't there and they aren't implementing the programs as designed (with necessary adaptation of course), it isn't scouting, it's just a random made-up youth activity that may or may not serve any purpose whatsoever. And don't pretend that isn't the case in a vast number of troops in Utah because we all see them (or are them) at scout camp. Youth and adult time alike is being wasted and kids are being put in harm's way despite all the good intentions.

The sad thing is how easy it would be to improve the situation across the board. All that would have to happen is for the LDS area authority to tell all the stake presidents that no one gets into scouting without completing the simple 4-hour leader-specific training. Just cancel two mutual nights or one camp out and all of a sudden all the leaders have a running start instead of stumbling forward for years being frustrated or running around doing stupid random stuff like these yahoos.

As was noted above--if these guys had been in uniform, no way this would have happened.

owenfw

10-25-2013, 11:19 PM

Not to mention the troops that just fail to go to camp at all...

rockgremlin

10-26-2013, 05:00 PM

Has anyone else here heard of the "Friends of Scouting" drive?

DiscGo

10-26-2013, 06:49 PM

Has anyone else here heard of the "Friends of Scouting" drive?

Yes. We do it every year here in our neighborhood. Most people hate it because the money goes to the BSA instead of the local boys.

Sandstone Addiction

10-26-2013, 10:42 PM

Yes. We do it every year here in our neighborhood. Most people hate it because the money goes to the BSA instead of the local boys.

I'm pretty sure the money from FOS stays in the Council, which basically goes to the local boys. Costs millions of dollars each year to run the Scout camps and the council office and they need the donations just to break even.

rockgremlin

10-27-2013, 10:37 AM

Yeah it's a hot button issue in previous wards for me as well. The controversy being that bishops were getting up in priesthood and regular meetings encouraging donations into the FOS -- and as was mentioned above -- it's not clear how or if those funds were reporting to local troops. Many people questioned why the church would allow fund raising over the pulpit at all, scouting or not.

bigred72

10-27-2013, 03:21 PM

Seems like this needs to be split into two different threads to keep it on topic.

hank moon

10-27-2013, 03:29 PM

yah, we got the big gay thread (http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?46051-Bogley-s-BIG-GAY-THREAD), where's the big scout thread?

Sombeech

10-27-2013, 05:06 PM

All that would have to happen is for the LDS area authority to tell all the stake presidents that no one gets into scouting without completing the simple 4-hour leader-specific training.

Well I think this should come from the BSA, not the LDS authorities. If the BSA wants the LDS volunteers to be better trained, I think it should come from the BSA.

But then again, I still stand by my opinion that no amount of training, certification, nor course work will eliminate rash behavior by the few who screw it up for everybody. Kind of like the tiny fraction of ATV riders who disrespect the law and make all riders look bad by going out of boundaries and thrashing the land.

accadacca

11-01-2013, 05:19 PM

What is the latest with this story. Has anyone heard?

Sombeech

11-01-2013, 06:03 PM

What is the latest with this story. Has anyone heard?

All I've heard is:

Wiggle it..... just a little bit....

accadacca

11-03-2013, 01:16 PM

Almost 3,000 have signed this petition: http://petitions.moveon.org/sign/prosecute-the-goblin?source=mo&id=77179-24945993-R7Chhbx

whansen

11-03-2013, 08:25 PM

Do people really need training to teach them not to destroy natural resources?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk

bigred72

11-04-2013, 04:55 AM

Common sense is not so common, unfortunately.

owenfw

11-04-2013, 06:34 AM

Do people really need training to teach them not to destroy natural resources?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk

Have you met the human race?

Slot Machine

11-04-2013, 07:32 AM

Almost 3,000 have signed this petition: http://petitions.moveon.org/sign/prosecute-the-goblin?source=mo&id=77179-24945993-R7Chhbx

Thanks for posting this Acca. Added my signature.

Hang em high. Figuratively, of course.

accadacca

11-13-2013, 03:10 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIZdjT1472Y

Sombeech

11-13-2013, 03:30 PM

Can you imagine the federal punishment from this incident?

http://youtu.be/EQG3I5efwWo

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

jman

01-31-2014, 03:17 PM

Update 1/31/14 - "Utah Files felony charge against 'goblin topplers'" from Sltrib.com (http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home3/57478685-200/hall-formation-goblin-rock.html.csp)

"The so-called goblin topplers — David Hall and Glenn Taylor — were charged with third-degree felonies Friday for pushing over a rock formation in Goblin Valley State Park in October.Taylor, who is accused of physically pushing over the hoodoo, was charged Friday in Castle Dale’s 7th District Court with third-degree felony criminal mischief. Hall, accused of video-taping the incident, was charged with conspiracy criminal mischief, also a third-degree felony.

If convicted, the men could face up to five years in prison and a fine of up to $5,000.
According to court records, the men are accused of causing more than $1,500 but less than $5,000 of damage when they pushed over the ancient rock formation on Oct. 11 — an incident they posted a video of on YouTube.

"We had to look at the value from an ‘as if we are trying to construct it’ standpoint. Clearly we can’t reconstruct it, but it was the only way we had to put some value on it," said Utah State Parks director Fred Hayes, who stated he was not aware of the final monetary value placed on the destroyed hoodoo. "Whether that was right or not we don’t know, but we had to come up with something."

Hayes pointed out that a bill addressing this kind of vandalism is scheduled to be discussed next week at the Utah Legislature.

Rep. Dixon Pitcher, R-Ogden , is sponsoring a bill that might make determining the value of natural features like hoodoos easier."

Read the rest here: http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home3/57478685-200/hall-formation-goblin-rock.html.csp

Bootboy

01-31-2014, 03:54 PM

Throw the book at them

Reedus

01-31-2014, 05:19 PM

Word on the street is that our very own Scott Card is representing these two...

Sun Dance

01-31-2014, 08:08 PM

Conspiracy criminal mischief? What a bunch of BS. How is it a crime to videotape anything, as long as the person being taped agrees to it (or is forced to by law, in the case of cops)?

Scott P

01-31-2014, 08:58 PM

How is it a crime to videotape anything, as long as the person being taped agrees to it (or is forced to by law, in the case of cops)?

It seems that several people who videotape crimes get charged with this. For example, filming mailbox vandalism, filming crime sprees, etc.

jman

03-01-2014, 08:16 AM

I just heard about this just now, but this is about 2 days late:

"Goblin toppling bill on hold" From KSL.com (http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=28861596#QUXpwElwmRQ1yeW7.03) (although the article is now stated as "archived", which means it might be outdated??? after 2 days?) Anyway,

"Lawmakers say they love their goblins, but they rejected a bill to protect the geologic features because they said it was too broad and probably not needed. Members of the House Natural Resources, Agriculture and Environment Committee narrowly voted 8-6 to hold HB68, (http://le.utah.gov/~2014/bills/static/HB0068.html)sponsored by Rep. Dixon Pitcher, R-Ogden.

"I don't see where this hits the target," said Rep. Ken Ivory, R-West Jordan. "It seems to cast a pretty wide net."

"What we are primarily concerned about are those features that constituted the designation of the park itself," he said. "The goblins in the Goblin Valley, for example, are the type of features that brought about this legislation."

But lawmakers worried that the provisions in the bill would be too far-reaching and encompass too many features at a park.

"As I see we are trying to figure out a process to deal with penalties for priceless objects," Ivory said, but added that the "loose" descriptions in the bill embrace any feature valued at $101 or more.

But several lawmakers, including Rep. Steve Handy, R-Layton, said he wanted to move the bill forward for additional discussion because of the importance of protecting those geologic features.

Rep. Mike Noel, R-Kanab, however, said he was not convinced the bill is necessary."The situation we are dealing with has already been resolved by the county attorney in that county and I am not sure we are adding that much," he said."