Dangerous Webbing in Arizona Canyons

[azhiker00]

I have heard that someone is purposely cutting just part of the webbing in some Arizona canyons and leaving behind a deadly situation. This comes from someone who said the information came from someone in and Arizona SAR, anyone else hear about this? Be sure to check your webbing thoroughly...including close to the knot!

[qedcook]

If that's true, that's messed up!

[hank moon]

Be sure to check your webbing thoroughly...including close to the knot!

Excellent advice for every anchor on every trip to any canyon.

And don't forget to include the thing or things your anchor is attached to:

rock + bolt + hanger
tree + roots + dirt
chock + rock
etc...

[dougr]

Insane. I had a situation a few weeks ago in the Seven Cataracts where all the webbing was missing. Just flat gone at every rap. I used up 95' of my 100' webbing supply in the 1.5 hr longer descent than normal while retying every single one. Really ticked me off that someone went to such lengths to eliminate webbing that was perfectly fine on my descent just 3 weeks prior. I wonder now if it's related.

I back up all reused webbing as others descend before me. Yet another reason to do so.

[SRG]

:popcorn:

[hank moon]

I back up all reused webbing as others descend before me. Yet another reason to do so.

Does this mean you add webbing to existing webbing w/o consideration of whether the existing webbing is ok as-is?

[dweaver2130]

I ran into a similar problem in Parker. All the webbing was gone, put in all my own webbing, went back two weeks later and all my webbing was gone.

I was wondering why, second guessing if I had placed it wrong or if I missed and easier way, guess not.

[Bootboy]

They just wanna keep it fresh for everyone;).

The thing is, if they are cutting webbing, what are they rapping off of? Natural anchors? Straight through the hangers? Sand traps? Interesting.

[dweaver2130]

They just wanna keep it fresh for everyone;).

The thing is, if they are cutting webbing, what are they rapping off of? Natural anchors? Straight through the hangers? Sand traps? Interesting.

Well in my example they are rapping straight through the hangers on new bolts and over an edge that complicates the rappel.

[deagol]

maybe it's time we start installing ladder rungs for all the drops

[Glenn]

This raises a question I've always had about canyoneering. How can you participate in an activity where you have to trust and constantly test the integrity of devices/equipment left before you?

I'm not trying to sound critical or snarky, but it's one of those things that's kept me out of the sport.

[jman]

This brings up a ethics question. If you have a good anchor and good webbing already left at a drop where no groove is going to occur - should u leave it there and let others see/use it? Or do you take it with you hoping that the next party will do the responsible thing but come to find out they place a new bolt, or don't extend the webbing thereby creating a new groove or enlarging it. Eh?


-Brett

[hank moon]

This brings up a ethics question. If you have a good anchor and good webbing already left at a drop where no groove is going to occur - should u leave it there and let others see/use it? Or do you take it with you hoping that the next party will do the responsible thing but come to find out they place a new bolt, or don't extend the webbing thereby creating a new groove or enlarging it. Eh?

Eh? indeed!

I'm not clear on what you are asking; is it whether good anchors in trade routes should be left in place or removed? And, what is "the responsible thing" ? Please elaborate.

[Scott P]

How can you participate in an activity where you have to trust and constantly test the integrity of devices/equipment left before you?

Never trust anything that you didn't install until testing it. I think just about everyone has gotten lax about this at least a time or two. It's never a good idea to trust something you didn't inspect and test.

By the way, speaking in canyoneering code, "this looks bomber", or "this seems safe" really means "you go first".

[flatiron]

By the way, speaking in canyoneering code, "this looks bomber", or "this seems safe" really means "you go first".

In the same vein - " you go 1st" also means " I want to go 1st when it is nice and easy and seems safe, but YOU go 1st when I'm scared, this is hard, I will need an assist down, and maybe not so safe"

[Slot Machine]

How can you participate in an activity where you have to trust and constantly test the integrity of devices/equipment left before you?

I do not trust. That is how.

I just assume any anchor left before me is going to fail, and that the previous group survived because they were lucky. People tie horrible webbing knots and built shitty anchors all of the time. Flash floods move boulders and shift deadman anchors, often making them unsuitable for further use. Taking the time to properly assess each obstacle is key to your group's health and well-being.

It is VERY rare that you are forced to simply 'trust', i.e. having just one option (not backed up) for an anchor. The single ancient pitons in The Squeeze come to mind... It is the only time that I wish I had a bolt kit, and no question would have used it.

[jman]

Eh? indeed!

I'm not clear on what you are asking; is it whether good anchors in trade routes should be left in place or removed? And, what is "the responsible thing" ? Please elaborate.

Sure thing Mr Moon.

So let's say you are doing one of the NW canyons or RR canyons and there is a rappel. Let's say you come across it and you see a bomber anchor with yards of webbing with a Rapide at the end. This current setup (generally speaking) will not leave any groove while you rappel. However, you decide to ghost it and take everything with you (which is the appropriate standard - in the ethos of leave no trace). However, the group following you is a meetup group. They don't know better as they just "conquer" the canyon. They don't see any anchors or webbing (that's extended mind you) and they lay down a webbing line that is within there comfort level (which is not extended over the lip) thereby creating a new groove.

Does that help clarify it a little more? Typing on a phone sux, but that's all I have for now.

Ps - this could be in trade canyons AND lesser-known canyons.


-Brett

[Slot Machine]

Eh? indeed!

Hank, be nice. Maybe English isn't really his thing.

:haha:

[Slot Machine]

So let's say you are doing one of the NW canyons or RR canyons and there is a rappel. Let's say you come across it and you see a bomber anchor with yards of webbing with a Rapide at the end. This current setup (generally speaking) will not leave any groove while you rappel. However, you decide to ghost it and take everything with you (which is the appropriate standard - in the ethos of leave no trace). However, the group following you is a meetup group. They don't know better as they just "conquer" the canyon. They don't see any anchors or webbing (that's extended mind you) and they lay down a webbing line that is within there comfort level (which is not extended over the lip) thereby creating a new groove.

I'm pretty sure you know the answers to all of this...

Random questions does not a quality forum make. :facepalm1:

[flatiron]

This raises a question I've always had about canyoneering. How can you participate in an activity where you have to trust and constantly test the integrity of devices/equipment left before you?



Good question - serious. My climbing mentor always described climbing as 'problem solving'. I agree. Also think of canyoneering in same context. I have several canyoneering partners who use that exact term as one of the main reasons they are attracted to the sport. Unlike hiking, or skiing, or biking, there is problem solving of all kinds to descend a canyon. And much more so as they get harder. (IMHO I think you see less accidents in harder canyons in part because you have to stay very focused on getting down rather than socialize or assume others are taking care of any safety issues.).

[jman]

I'm pretty sure you know the answers to all of this...

Random questions does not a quality forum make. :facepalm1:

Haha. It DOES make it when one is bored, Mr. Super Amazing Super-Duper Fantastic Albino Death thread, Slot Machine. Talk about quality there. :facepalm1:


-Brett

[flatiron]

Good question - serious. My climbing mentor always described climbing as 'problem solving'. I agree. Also think of canyoneering in same context. I have several canyoneering partners who use that exact term as one of the main reasons they are attracted to the sport. Unlike hiking, or skiing, or biking, there is problem solving of all kinds to descend a canyon. And much more so as they get harder. (IMHO I think you see less accidents in harder canyons in part because you have to stay very focused on getting down rather than socialize or assume others are taking care of any safety issues.).

And what I meant to add b4 I stupidly hit reply button :facepalm1: was : a BIG part of the problem solving is all of the technical aspects - anchor making, ghosting, downclimb vs partner assist vs rappel/anchoring, etc. Some people love this stuff, others obviously do not. So no you do not just trust everything. In fact you shouldn't, that is a good way to get hurt. Any training emphasizes not to trust but to check. To borrow the old Reagan line: "trust but verify". I know I know - :roll:

[Slot Machine]

Haha. It DOES make it when one is bored, Mr. Super Amazing Super-Duper Fantastic Albino Death thread, Slot Machine. Talk about quality there. :facepalm1:


-Brett

What is wrong with my Death Thread (http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?69923-The-Death-Thread)? :ne_nau: It is useful, or so I've been told. It has 5000 hits... so, people are reading it.

*braces self for another half-tarded reply*

:popcorn:

[Slot Machine]

Also, jman, posting random crap diminishes the quality of the forum. It's FAKE content. It simply dilutes the quality of conversation around here. You aren't Socrates, you're not stimulating anyone's thought processes with your patronizing fabricated questions.

Authentic content generates traffic. Traffic is what defines quality content. I shouldn't have to point this out to a moderator...

[jman]

Also, jman, posting random crap diminishes the quality of the forum. It's FAKE content. It simply dilutes the quality of conversation around here. You aren't Socrates, you're not stimulating anyone's thought processes with your patronizing fabricated questions.

Authentic content generates traffic. Traffic is what defines quality content. I shouldn't have to point this out to a moderator...

Here's the problem with your attitude Bob....

Let's rehash, shall we?

Way back in 01-29-2013:



sorry to burst your bubble but i dont think this is sad cow ( looks like ABC are something to explore ) the blog says "After our hike into Phipps Wash we drove into town" the nearest town is 3 miles away from the "TH" and the total length of the canyon there and back is ~16 miles, i know shaggy has been there since he has pictures of this canyon ( http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?41394 )
also this is the end of the canyon it dose not look the area of our maps


YOUR considerate, polite, response (of course):


You not being able to find your ass with either hand in no way bursts my bubble. That is, your ineptitude in no way disproves my theory.

If you read CAREFULLY, the drive back to town could have been the day before, the week before, ANY time before their approach to Sad Cow. They hiked Phipps wash, had dinner, then they drove to meet Ram's crew. Then they probably camped, THEN they approached Sad Cow in the morning. Jesus, have you even tried to figure this out for yourself?? :facepalm1:

Shaggy has been there? REALLY?? :facepalm1: You don't remember post #41 from your "best canyon" thread?...


Then a followup by you in response to either Iceaxe or LeviFackrell (because you quote yourself and didn't make sense, at first):


Finally, I don't care where their exit hike was. It could be any direction from the slot, and many miles away. Of all their photos, you just pointed out the LEAST relevant. Nice work. :2thumbs:

:wallbash:


And just to quote a few other people who post about Bogley's elite (which you are not, no one is) but post about there arrogant, condescending, attitudes, (which includes yours):



"I've been hanging out online on Bogley Outdoors under another name, but tire of the often nasty attitudes towards anyone not in the inner circle"


And another quote from our beloved Tom Jones in reference to your attitude as well:


Good to see you still have the ability to be a douche. :facepalm1:

Tom :moses:


LOLzzzz - you talk about "AUTHENTIC content generates traffic....and traffic is what defines quality content", but that only happens when YOU don't harass 'em away!

[SRG]

Traffic is what defines quality content.
I disagree.
Wayyyy more people click on threads that are just bullshit interpersonal drama than do click on trip reports and beta questions and things like that. People love crap, thats why Miley Cyrus twerking and zombies and Drake and Huffpost and Fox News are so popular right now.
I'd say in general, online, there is an inverse relationship between number of clicks and relevant, important content.


Random questions does not a quality forum make.
I think wording the question two times in the form of a specific example made it a little convoluted and difficult to decipher what is being asked.
I also think that "Is cleaning up a canyon a worthy or useless endeavor?" is an interesting thing to think about and a worthwhile question.


This brings up a ethics question.
Jman, you make a good point that in some cases one's effort to keep a canyon from getting destroyed can be counter productive.
I think it's a slippery slope, however, to plan one's canyon activities around the incompetence of other groups.
My idealistic and hypocritical answer is that every time one feels like pulling some webbing out of a canyon but is concerned about another groups safety/competence, one could leave the webbing in place and instead go online and post some retrievable anchor tech and encourage others to practice clean-descents and good canyon ethics(in a tactful manner).
The idea is to solve the problem with education rather than pulling the webbing I guess.

Edit: Can I say "bullshit" without it getting censored, but not "shit"?
Double edit: I can say both! Way to go Bogley! I thought we couldn't swear here? Has there been a change in the rules?

[Slot Machine]

:yawn: *YAWNS AT JMAN* :yawn:

You're so sad when you try to craft arguments. It's like watching Stephen Hawking try to pole vault.

Yeeeeeeah, I fixed that whole thing with Levi. Publicly and privately. He is serving a Mormon mission right now, not scared away. No points for you. Nice try. I'd be happy to take him canyoneering when he gets back. Tom can take care of himself. He is still here. Besides, he knows we always have a beer in the cooler for him. :cheers:

Who else have I harassed away, in your fanciful land of make-believe?

You didn't answer my question about the Death Thread. What is wrong with it again?

And why do you craft fake content? You feel like Bogley needs it?

[Slot Machine]

I disagree. Wayyyy more people click on threads that are just bullshit interpersonal drama than do click on trip reports and beta questions and things like that. People love crap, thats why Miley Cyrus twerking and zombies and Drake and Huffpost and Fox News are so popular right now.
I'd say in general, online, there is an inverse relationship between number of clicks and relevant, important content.

I suppose 'quality' is subjective. So you are right. The words 'relevant' and 'important' are also subjective. I disagree with the inverse relationship part of your argument. If you click on the most hit threads on Bogley, I think you will find a high percentage of them to be high quality stuff.

I use 'quality' in this context: quality posts are the gasoline that fuels Bogley, aka the traffic generating posts. Those posts translate into users, then users make the site grow. Like Fox News, I get how content works. Some facts, some drama, some news and some clever presentation. @Iceaxe (http://www.bogley.com/forum/member.php?u=36) REALLY gets how it works. His content is consistently high octane stuff. Whether you like his opinions or not, he adds GREATLY to the website.

I'm bagging on jman's content today because it is water, not gasoline. It's bad for the site. At least when he posts his buddies videos, that is half-interesting and adds to the forum. I'm challenging him to post honest questions and craft better content.

[Slot Machine]

I have heard that someone is purposely cutting just part of the webbing in some Arizona canyons and leaving behind a deadly situation. This comes from someone who said the information came from someone in and Arizona SAR, anyone else hear about this? Be sure to check your webbing thoroughly...including close to the knot!

A flailing attempt to unjack this thread...

azhiker00, I would be very surprised if anyone would actually do this felonious and potentially murderous act. What would be the motive? Does your resource have pictures that they might be willing to share?

[yetigonecrazy]

Here's the problem with your attitude Bob....

Let's rehash, shall we?

Way back in 01-29-2013:



YOUR considerate, polite, response (of course):


Then a followup by you in response to either Iceaxe or LeviFackrell (because you quote yourself and didn't make sense, at first):


And just to quote a few other people who post about Bogley's elite (which you are not, no one is) but post about there arrogant, condescending, attitudes, (which includes yours):



And another quote from our beloved Tom Jones in reference to your attitude as well:


LOLzzzz - you talk about "AUTHENTIC content generates traffic...and traffic is what defines quality content", but that only happens when YOU don't harass 'em away!

Im gonna toss my hat in here and say Ive left Bogley for about a month and am not planning on coming back, and its because of you, Bob.

I like how you started in as a noob who didnt know anything, bitched and caused problems until people were forced to accept you, and now a scant year later you act like you practically invented canyoneering, and this forum. You went from calling out people for elitism to basically acting just like them. You are arrogant, overly sure of your own importance, and generally are a douchebag to the people that you were on par with just eighteen months ago. You try to act like a big dog like some of the other people on here, the only problem is you dont have a twenty year resume of canyons like they do. You have been canyoneering for what....two years? Yet you act like you know ANY and EVERY thing there is to know about it.

You need a slice of humble pie, Bob. Im not the one to do it. But someone needs to give you one.

But basically I've decided its easier (and more enjoyable) to just keep doing it and not bothering with the forum, because while there are a LOT of amazing, world class people on here, its not worth coming to anymore and having to wade through the knee deep bullshit that you bring to EVERY discussion. Whether its you talking down to someone or telling someone they are stupid and you are the one who "knows how it is" (because youve been there ONE time and thats how it was when you were there.....the ONE time).

Alright, im back on my exile. A friend of mine who lurks but never registered, and knows the forum, linked me over to this page and I had to speak. Just wanted to illustrate the crowd that doesnt care for your attitude is larger than you think.

Acting like a badass does not a good forum participant make.

[Slot Machine]

Im gonna toss my hat in here and say Ive left Bogley for about a month and am not planning on coming back, its its because if Bob.

70087


I like how you started in as a noob who didnt know anything, bitched and caused problems until people were forced to accept you, and now a scant year later you act like you practically invented canyoneering, and this forum. You went from calling out people for elitism to basically acting just like them. You are arrogant, overly sure of your own importance, and generally are a douchebag to the people that you were on par with just eighteen months ago. You try to act like a big dog like some of the other people on here, the only problem is you dont have a twenty year resume of canyons like they do. You have been canyoneering for what....two years? Yet you act like you know ANY and EVERY thing there is to know about it.

You need a slice of humble pie, Bob. Im not the one to do it. But someone needs to give you one.

But basically I've decided its easier (and more enjoyable) to just keep doing it and not bothering with the forum, because while there are a LOT of amazing, world class people on here, its not worth coming to anymore and having to wade through the knee deep bullshit that you bring to EVERY discussion. Whether its you talking down to someone or telling someone they are stupid and you are the one who "knows how it is" (because youve been there ONE time and thats how it was when you were there.....the ONE time).

Alright, im back on my exile. A friend of mine who lurks but never registered, and knows the forum, linked me over to this page and I had to speak. Just wanted to illustrate the crowd that doesnt care for your attitude is larger than you think.

Acting like a badass does not a good forum participant make.

OH MAN! Burrrn! Straight from the captian of cow pasture exploration. Ohhhh the pain!! :lol8::haha::lol8::haha::lol8:

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-17-2013/HvYo3n.gif (http://www.makeagif.com/HvYo3n)

[jman]

I'm bagging on jman's content today because it is water, not gasoline. It's bad for the site. At least when he posts his buddies videos, that is half-interesting and adds to the forum. I'm challenging him to post honest questions and craft better content.

bad for the site? please. Your actions speak for themselves plenty.

When did you join Bogley? 2011, 2012? Us old dogs have been here since 2006 (and much longer for a few).

And what's with this "half-content" and "make believe"? All of the quotations are from you. I'd be happy to provide the links with your quotes...

People don't have to provide content every single post they make. That is a ridiculous claim to make. Moving on.

I get it though, you have been around for what 2 years, and think you are part of the big leagues now. I've been canyoneering since late 2001 (subway was the initiatory canyon) and I've done numerous canyons in Utah. I haven't tried Ouray or Death Valley yet, but that's on the list. But, my point is, I still consider myself a noob essentially. This activity/sport has a a lot of dynamics to it. Better gear, better ropes, better techniques, better education are consistently improving the activity/sport. What it needs less of is people who don't treat others in a respectful manner. Sure, disagree all you want. Call people names. Call people's attempt at sharing THEIR WORLD, "half-content", and I guarantee that they won't be coming back.

People have thicker skin then others. They tend to stick around. Iceaxe, RockGremlin, Stefan, Accadacca, Sombeech, and a few others. The others moved on. Why stay on a "friendly" and "respectful" forum when some members consistently pound there chests, and constantly penis-measure yourself to others. No one cares about "who's the best" or "the a-team" etc. Most people here would agree me on this, and just want to share there experience in a canyon (good or bad), ask questions, get advice, share photos, etc. without being publicly humiliated, attacked, harrased by other members. Most get into the activity/sport and love it since day 1. That's why so many people check the Bogley - Canyoneering section on a VERY daily basis. Even folks who posted about there first Keyhole trip (which we have seen for the thousandth time) want to feel appreciated or have some acknowledgment from the members on a successful TR.

Sure, feel free to post "content" all you want and we will continue to read and watch it. But most want a community where they feel welcomed and can provide content (even if it's not up to your high standards of quality). With you and your attitude - no one gets that. Sure, we might get a few laughs from time to time. But when you berate others because you want to penis-measure yourself....they will leave. You don't know the behind the scenes drama. I get messages from members across the board saying "man, what a great helpful site" and on the flip-side, unfortunately, messages like "that guy is a dick, why did he attack me for asking about a canyon? I'm outta here" comes up more often than not.

I'm not asking you leave or stop posting content, and even when you post "half-content" stuff too....post ALL you want and whatever you want. Feel free to berate me and others all you want (but don't, use that brain of yours). Bogley allows for your freedom of speech. I don't take it personally anymore. There was a time when I was much younger when I would take it personally (just like the Levi Fackrell incident). And all I'm asking you in behalf of the many ex-members who have left (or are still silently watching) - be respectful. That's it. Simple.

Btw The usual crowd keeps me entertained plenty! There are some hilarious people here and just great all-around people! Ever attend a Bogley-Fest. They are very fun. Again, this is the idealist within me, but it's about a good, helpful community. And hopefully others don't leave just because a few other people ruin it for the crowd.

[hank moon]

A flailing attempt to unjack this thread...

@azhiker00 (http://www.bogley.com/forum/member.php?u=24802) , I would be very surprised if anyone would actually do this felonious and potentially murderous act. What would be the motive? Does your resource have pictures that they might be willing to share?

I checked w/snopes...it's bogus. File under "watch out for AIDS-infected needles taped to gas pump handles"

[Slot Machine]

I checked w/snopes...it's bogus. File under "watch out for AIDS-infected needles taped to gas pump handles"

I knew it!

70083

:haha::lol8::haha::lol8::haha:

[dougr]

Does this mean you add webbing to existing webbing w/o consideration of whether the existing webbing is ok as-is?

No, I fully inspect. Then I add a backup runner or webbing and 'biner off a hanger or tree with full weight on the existing webbing. Then I go last, sans backup of course.

[dougr]

This raises a question I've always had about canyoneering. How can you participate in an activity where you have to trust and constantly test the integrity of devices/equipment left before you?

I'm not trying to sound critical or snarky, but it's one of those things that's kept me out of the sport.

Reasonable. But with the cost of failure so high, trusting another person isn't enough anyway. No different than sky diving or gun handling I suppose.

[Glenn]

I can only hope that the behavior seen in this thread isn't indicative of what I'd have to deal with should I ever attempt canyoneering, because it's the one activity here I would never do alone. I can tolerate my own @$$hole, but that's about it. :roll:

[flatiron]

I can only hope that the behavior seen in this thread isn't indicative of what I'd have to deal with should I ever attempt canyoneering, because it's the one activity here I would never do alone. I can tolerate my own @$$hole, but that's about it. :roll:

100% agree! :2thumbs: And I would suggest it's not. Try some canyons, you'll meet some great people. Or better yet, bring your own great friends with you. I remember camping next to a group of guys from Calif who had never done canyons. 1 guy wanted to try them, rounded up his buddies and said we are going to Zion and do some canyoneering. They took a 3 day ZAC class, then hit the canyons. They were like kids in a candy store -just loved it and raved about how much fun. And it reminded me of how I felt 1st time doing canyons. Do that and you don't have to deal with ---!

[azhiker00]

This post has gotten off subject, so if anyone else hears something to validate the rumor please let the community know. There are sick people out there and the situation that I mention is in canyons that you don't necessarily need to rappel, they are places where you can access and escape without technical gear. I will specifically say Christopher Creek, I doubt canyoneers would do this to their own community. Be careful out there!

[MrAdam]

This post has gotten off subject, so if anyone else hears something to validate the rumor please let the community know. There are sick people out there and the situation that I mention is in canyons that you don't necessarily need to rappel, they are places where you can access and escape without technical gear. I will specifically say Christopher Creek, I doubt canyoneers would do this to their own community. Be careful out there!

Was the cut webbing found on one of the bolted rappels in Christopher Creek? If I remember correctly, most, if not all of the bolts, placed in the canyon do not have quicklinks and the webbing is just run thru the hangers, which after repeated loading and unloading could be the cause of the cut webbing. The bolt for the next to the last drop, which is poorly placed in tension and not shear, comes to mind.

[azhiker00]

I am not worried about missing webbing, I just place more, in fact there was no webbing on the second rap in CC this past weekend and I placed more with a new rap ring (chockstone rap on left). CC can be done without rappelling, I have seen it done by locals coming up creek, so it doesn't have to be technical canyoneers on the canyon

My question is if anyone else has heard rumors about finding webbing that is partially cut. there are some sick people out there.