Pandoras Box RESCUE, June 2012

[Bclark29]

Welp, the title says it all. I didn't want to share this story, but with all the recent rescues and deaths, I think I should.

I've been canyoneering for sometime now. I love it, but, I made a BIG mistake.

It all started with some good friends of mine. I took them down Birch Hollow a few years before . I thought to myself, "These guys are pretty good, they are safe, they don't rush raps, and they trust me."

I received a request from a friend back in early spring 2012, "Hey man, lets do something new, how about Capital Reef area?" I thought, okay, let me do some research and read some beta on the internet about the canyons.

He recommended, Pandora's Box, a 3A R IV, I checked out the beta, saw it was a fairly simple hike in, a few rappels, a few very narrow sections that we had to stem up and over, and a big rap for the finale. Then a few mile hike out and we could either head up canyon or down. I figured at least 12 hours to get us through, Pandora's Box. I knew I'd have to set up all the anchors and rappels, help with the stemming and guide/navigate us through Pandora's. Challenge excepted.

I warned our group of 5, my wife, 3 friends and myself, that this was a tough canyon, lots of stemming and tricky squeezing through narrow dangerous country. I told them all to come prepared with over night kits, just in case.

June- July, I don't remember the exact month, but I do remember that it was hot as hell. We all met up at the trailhead around, 8:30 a.m., WAY TOO LATE TO START A NEW CANYON, in the heat of summer. I made sure my group all had the appropriate gear: food, water (3 liters of water per person), harnesses, helmets, rappelling devices, back up rappelling devices, biners, webbing, ropes, pull ropes, overnight kits (matches, magnesium kit, emergency blanket, head lamps, dryer lint, meds/bandaids.) Come to find out, I was the only one with an overnight kit and head lamps. After our check list, I doubled checked that I had my GPS and beta, I did. We were ready. We left the trail head shortly after 8:45.

We navigated up the trail through beautiful Capital Reef Country. It approximately took us 2 hours to get to the top of Meeks Mesa.

We finally reached Pandora's mouth, around 10:30 a.m. Again, it was about 90+ degrees outside.

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We geared up and went in Pandora's sweet bliss. We set off first with a few down climbs, which again as I mentioned before, I knew I'd have to help my group with. We made it down the first set of obstacles. Next, was an easy 60' rap off a tree stump wedged in Pandora's walls. We all made it down with no problems. We quickly came up to the next rappel, an 85' (could be a 2 stagger) rappel, I decided just to make it one big rappel and not worry about the 2 stage since I knew we had to quickly get through this canyon. A quick water break for my group while I bagged the rope. This canyon is absolutely beautiful, I've never explored a canyon like this. Few hundred steps later, we reached what was considered the "most technical part of the canyon" according to my beta. I went first, you literally had to stem up 20+' and traverse about 40'. Sounds easy, for me it was, for my group it was tough. I helped all of them through the narrow section. They all did terrific, I was very proud of my group. My beta then stated, "after the narrow section the canyon becomes a thrill ride." When I read this at home, I ASSUMED, "sweet, a few more narrow sections and maybe a few more small rappels!" Nope, it was the longest 5 more hours of my life...more super narrow sections where we had to squeeze/army crawl through spots. Eventually, we all needed a break, so we took lunch. I re read my beta and tried to figure out exactly where we were at, but I was a little confused with my beta. My beta didn't mention another few hours of hard down-climbing and narrow navigating.

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My group was tired as was I. We slowly were getting low on water as the day got hotter and our (my) confusion of where we were at made it a tad more difficult to judge how much more time we had left til we hit our vehicles. After our lunch we navigated down beautiful Pandora's Box. I now knew why fellow canyoneers called it Pandora's Box,it truly is a process that generates many complicated problems as the result of unwise interference...

We finally reached the last 2 rappels in Pandora's Box. The first one was a 50' rap of a bush then from there you'd go off a sweet rock anchor that was 145'. We all went down the first rap then I rigged up our anchor for the final rappel. Remember, we were 6 hours or so into the canyon now, I was completely toast, I remember checking my water right before rigging the last rappel and realizing I had about a half of liter of water left. Not knowing how much I'd have to help my group through this canyon, I consumed way more water than I anticipated. I remember my friend gave me a swig of water little water he had left too. He said, " Here man, you need this to rig the anchor." I've never really encountered dehydration on a canyoneering trip before and I've done at least 40 trips. It blows, it took me 15 minutes to rig up a simple biner block and then tie my pulling rope to my 9 mm. I was so out of it, I was pretty nervous.

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Finally, we were out of Pandora's Box. But now we had to make a big decision on our exit route. It was hot, we were all almost out of water and it was around 5 pm now. There's 2 exit option's, the first one head down Chimney Rock Canyon for almost 6 miles or head up Chimney Rock canyon for 2 miles then hike up to Meeks Mesa then return to our cars. We chose to go up.

When you're extremely exhausted from working your ass off trying to navigate yourself and your wife and friends through a tough canyon, a simple 2 mile hike out, sucks ass. We were all struggling. Our trip eventually became a mental game.

We made it to Wingate Sandstone, our exit point to reach the top of Meeks Mesa. My group was toast. One group member was not looking good at all. She was pale and I could tell she was struggling. I told them we must continue up the Mesa. By now we only had maybe an hour or so of sun left. We were all doing the one foot in front of the other slow step. I remember looking back and a member of my group was crawling on all 4's. I knew she was done. We had a little meeting or whatever you want to call it and I told my group that we have a few options. We can all either stick together and spend the night. Myself and my wife can come back in the morning and get you guys and bring plenty of water too or you ( the weakest) can stay back with your husband and the other 3 of us can head back and rest and again comeback in the morning for them. She decided to continue up the Mesa. After a few minutes, she was back on all 4's slowly trying to crawl up. Finally, I decided that I got them in this position and we are ALL staying here till morning. My wife suddenly brought to our attention that she had her cell phone on her. The one girl was pretty dehydrated so we decided to call 9-1-1 and to see if they could bring us more water and help her get out. I marked our coordinates on the GPS, I remember having to call 9-1-1 at least 4 times cause we kept losing reception. Eventually, I was finally able to tell the 9-1-1 operator of our situation and our location. The last thing I remember her saying is that we will have Search and Rescue locate you guys and bring you water within a few hours. I was re leaved and extremely embarrassed that I needed help out of a canyon.

My next step was to stay close to the coordinates I gave dispatch but to try to find a comfortable spot on the side of a Mesa too. I made a fire so that they could find us better in the no moon, pitch black night. It was a hot night, a fire wasn't really necessary for us to stay warm.

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I remember thinking in my head over and over that I should have just continued to the top of the mesa with my wife and then across it then back down to our cars. I knew we were close to the top of the Mesa, but on a later trip, I found out just how close to the top of the Mesa I really was.

But, again, I got my group in this situation so I had to stay with them.

A few hours turned into 5. By now our bodies were cold from being so dehydrated so we all cuddled around the fire to stay warm. We tried to sleep, but sleeping on a steep slope isn't easy.

If I remember correctly, the time had to be around 1:30 or 2 am. When suddenly, we heard a loud machine...Oh ****, I thought to myself, that's a god damn helicopter. I was even more embarrassed that I put my group in this situation. Their bright spot light pointed at us and 30 minutes later they found a safe spot to land. They slowly hiked up to us gave us water, we were all thankful that it was over and we were safe and not injured. Just extremely dehydrated. The walk down to the helicopter was miserable and embarrassing as shit for me. I slowly realized to that this was "Life Flight" that picked us up, from page Arizona.

When we got to the helicopter they gave us more water and took the ladies first and then they'd come back for the guys.

It was the guy's turn to return to our cars, I remember entering the helicopter and watching the pilot maneuver his aircraft in the pitch black night...the flight lasted maybe 1 minute. That's how damn close we were to our cars. Pilot said we were 1 3/4 miles from a birds eye view to our cars. ****. We were that close and couldn't make it. To make things worse, as we headed over the Mesa down to our landing spot I noticed there was at least 20 search and rescue cars waiting for us. D'oh. Even more embarrassed. Once we landed I had to explain to the head Search and Rescue guy what had happened. Apparently, we weren't the only ones rescued in this canyon going off of the same beta.

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I'm not going to blame the beta that I used for what happened, it was my own fault.

I didn't want to tell anyone this story, but after noticing how many accidents have happened recently I thought I'd better share my experience with you guys so that you can avoid what happened to myself and my group.

Never bring newbies on a new canyon. Always do it before you bring an inexperienced group.

I'm glad everything turned out okay and everyone was safe.

11 months later, I kept replaying what happened in my head. I knew I had to complete Pandora's Box. So in May of this year (2013) myself and a few canyoneering buddies busted this canyon out in record time. 9 hours from start to finish. I even found my fire I built on the side of the Mesa. Come to find out we were just 10 minutes from the top of Meeks Mesa and from there 2 more hours to the car...all down hill.

Lesson learned, be safe out there guys.

[spinesnaper]

Trip report of the year!

I won't even say you learned a lesson, but you and your friends did survive to learn a lesson. I am profoundly aware of my tolerance to suffer for a very long time in the back country. You quickly learn that not everyone has that capability. You made a call as a leader to get help. You can kick yourself for putting yourself and your friends in that situation. Pride goes before a fall. Here you swallowed your pride and called for help. Your friends clearly needed more help than you could offer at the time. Thanks for sharing your near miss.

Ken

[ilipichicuma]

Thanks for sharing your experience! Hopefully it will make others think about this canyon a little more. It would definitely be easy to bite off more than you can chew with Pandora's Box. It is one of the longer canyons I've done, and while I loved it, I was definitely very tired and out of water (and I brought five liters, I think) by the end of the day, not to mention the fact that I broke my hand in there. The important thing is you made it out and you understand your mistakes so you won't make them again.

[Iceaxe]

My beta then stated, "after the narrow section the canyon becomes a thrill ride." When I read this at home, I ASSUMED, "sweet, a few more narrow sections and maybe a few more small rappels!" Nope, it was the longest 5 more hours of my life...more super narrow sections where we had to squeeze/army crawl through spots. Eventually, we all needed a break, so we took lunch. I re read my beta and tried to figure out exactly where we were at, but I was a little confused with my beta. My beta didn't mention another few hours of hard down-climbing and narrow navigating.

Since the beta is obviously mine….. The actual quote is…. “the canyon becomes a physical and challenging thrill ride as you head downstream. Depending on your skills; you will be forced to use additional rappels, belays, partner assists and handlines to descend the canyon. In the canyon you will encounter numerous and varying problems. Several sections of slot are too narrow for big guys to squeeze through and they will be forced to climb up and over the constriction. The key to making the tight sections easier is to go high early and stay high whenever in doubt.”

The quote is also surrounded with warnings like…. “This canyon is not suitable for beginners”….. “The canyon is accessible year round but summer would be miserably hot”….. “A major key to success with this slot canyon is to be hiking at first light or a little before. Many of the problems and rescues associated with this slot canyon are the result of canyoneers falling behind schedule for any number of reasons and running out of daylight. Don't be one of those canyoneers. So once again, You have been warned!”

There are several other warnings, including a second warning about the slot is going to be trouble for beginners…. And fat guys are going to get worked… But I think folks get the general idea.

:cool2:

FWIW: I have spoken with the NPS rangers many times about Pandora's and rescue and they are normally the result of two items. Novice canyoneers biting off more than they can chew and novice canyoneers underestimating the difficulty of the Meeks Mesa Exit. Within the past year I have added a "For Experts Only" warnings to the Meeks Mesa Exit.

[Bclark29]

Shane, like I said I'm not blaming your beta. It was totally my fault. And I actually sent you an email after my trip for you to re write and add more to it. Which you did. My whole point of writing this was to share my mistake, on taking newbies in a tough canyon. I could have made it back to the car, as could my wife. I'm use to being in that mental state. But, my other group members weren't and one member was in bad shape.

I'm not here to bash my group or anyone else, I just wanted to give warnings to other canyoneers to be careful on what canyon you do and who you bring with you.

[spinesnaper]

Medically speaking, there is something about the canyoneer's brain that makes it very difficult to fully absorb beta on a canyon you have never been down (speaking from personal experience). Let's face it, canyoneers are basically optimists. If you were really a pessimist, would you even be a canyoneer? Think about it. For me, there is something that causes me to forget about the R part of a canyon description until I am swimming around in a pot hole dealing with it ( or whatever). Obviously I am retraining my brain to better read into those descriptions. I can't tell you how many times I have reread a description after going through a canyon and said to myself: "Why didn't I see that before." Mind you I generally bring several written route descriptions with me if they are available, sometimes photos, essentially whatever I can get. It's not the beta pusher who is at fault here, it is the way our brains integrate the data that is faulty in my opinion.:nod:

Ken

[Iceaxe]

I think Ken nailed it... we have a habit of reading and processing the positive while ignoring the negative in beta.



Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[Mountaineer]

Thanks for sharing your experience. Very possible that this thread will pop-up when others plan and consider doing Pandora (and other canyons). It may make a difference, even save a life, although hard to measure and prove.

[Byron]

Lesson learned, eh? Just count your lucky stars that no one got hyperthermia and require a trip to the hospital, or worse. You actually dodged a bullet on this one.

I'm lucky...I'm like a camel. I can go all day on three liters...but I learned a long time ago that most people can't. Sounds like a nice canyon, I'll have to check it out...in the spring or fall, of course.

[ratagonia]

Shane, like I said I'm not blaming your beta. It was totally my fault. And I actually sent you an email after my trip for you to re write and add more to it. Which you did. My whole point of writing this was to share my mistake, on taking newbies in a tough canyon. I could have made it back to the car, as could my wife. I'm use to being in that mental state. But, my other group members weren't and one member was in bad shape.

I'm not here to bash my group or anyone else, I just wanted to give warnings to other canyoneers to be careful on what canyon you do and who you bring with you.

Many people do not pay attention to the GRADE, that Roman Numeral that is part of the rating.

Grade IV - hmmm, what could that mean?



Grade: Time Required and Seriousness

I - Short. A couple of hours.
II - Requires about a half day.
III - Normally requires most of a day.
IV - Expected to take a long day. Get up early, bring a headlamp. Possible bivy.
V - More than one day. Normally done in two days.
VI - Two full days or more.

Grade ratings estimate the time commitment the canyon involves for a small (4 - 6 people) descent team of experienced, fit adults moving at a good pace... but it includes the usual poking around and picture-taking. Parties with team members not yet proficient with technical aspects of canyoneering should allow 50% to 100% more time than indicated. Conversely, one can judge how one is doing on the canyoneer-proficiency scale by how one's party does against the "book" times.

Tom

[rockgremlin]

Lesson learned, eh? Just count your lucky stars that no one got hyperthermia and require a trip to the hospital, or worse. You actually dodged a bullet on this one.

I'm lucky...I'm like a camel. I can go all day on three liters...but I learned a long time ago that most people can't. Sounds like a nice canyon, I'll have to check it out...in the spring or fall, of course.Haha! I'm exactly the same way. I hike most of the time with either an 8 or 12 oz. drink or nothing. I recall a time early on in my marriage where I was taking my wife through the Subway from bottom up.....we didn't bring ANY water cuz I mistakenly assumed she wouldn't need any, and I sure as heck didn't. We get about 4 hours in and she turns to me and with parched lips begged to either start drinking river water or regress back to the car. I couldn't believe it! The gall...:roll: Point is.....be sensitive to the needs of the group members and be aware of what they might need before entering the canyon.

[hesse15]

recall a time early on in my marriage where I was taking my wife through the Subway from bottom up.....we didn't bring ANY water cuz I mistakenly assumed she wouldn't need any,
Men and their assumptions about women:facepalm:

[Bclark29]

I read the ratings, I got my group through the canyon, which was the hardest part, they just lost it mentally and physically on the end of the hike. My wife and I could have easily made it back to the car.

Again, I just wanted to share my experience with you so that this doesn't happen to you too. Do the canyon youre doing before you bring newbies. That's my biggest point.

I've got a question Shane and Tom for you, how do you guys come up with the "times" a canyon takes? Do you take an average? Or just go off of what you did? Thanks

[hesse15]

I read the ratings, I got my group through the canyon, which was the hardest part, they just lost it mentally and physically on the end of the hike. My wife and I could have easily made it back to the car.

Again, I just wanted to share my experience with you so that this doesn't happen to you too. Do the canyon youre doing before you bring newbies. That's my biggest point.

I've got a question Shane and Tom for you, how do you guys come up with the "times" a canyon takes? Do you take an average? Or just go off of what you did? Thanks
RC usually double it for his descriptions ( AJ website...for Ice is free site now so is not a commercial advertising!!!! :nod:)
it make a huge difference when you are highly skilled navigators and your group is small and strong.
I did squeeze with him in 7hrs ,it took me 14hrs when i did with 4 people idid notknow,but i planned accordly before i left camp making sure everybody was good in the case we need to spend the night and we were preparred for it
my Pandora with RC was 7hrs car to car with lunch and pictures and not really rushing just his pace!!!!:bootyshake:

[ratagonia]

I read the ratings, I got my group through the canyon, which was the hardest part, they just lost it mentally and physically on the end of the hike. My wife and I could have easily made it back to the car.

Again, I just wanted to share my experience with you so that this doesn't happen to you too. Do the canyon youre doing before you bring newbies. That's my biggest point.

I've got a question Shane and Tom for you, how do you guys come up with the "times" a canyon takes? Do you take an average? Or just go off of what you did? Thanks

I appreciate your entering the fray, and some of your points.

But...

Your leadership duties do not end at the bottom of the last rap, especially on Pandora's.

I think there are many concepts to take from your experience

"Do the canyon you're doing before you bring newbies."

That's a good one, but not one I would take away from this one. My conclusion would be:

"Don't do advanced canyons with noobs." plus

"Don't do canyons you don't know when they are out of season, especially not with noobs."

etc.

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As a matter of leadership ethics, the statement "My wife and I could have easily made it back to the car." is especially stinky :topes: Nothing like blaming your friends for your own mistakes.

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These days, I rarely beta a canyon without doing it multiple times, and having a good understanding of the canyon in different seasons and conditions. So by the time I pick a time to state, I have done it several times, and I generally offer a range that represents the range recorded (by time-stamps on pictures), with some adjustments. I usually do not consider the fastest time valid. As an example, my personal times in the Subway vary from 6 hours to 12 hours. And that is what it says on my website. Usually I add some to the fastest time because every noob thinks they can make the fastest time, no matter what their skill level.

Just to note, I am not particularly fast, especially hiking uphill. I don't like to rush through canyons, but usually set a casual pace unless there is a reason to do otherwise. Technically, I'm much faster, and tend to move groups through quickly, no matter how big the group is.

Tom

[ratagonia]

I read the ratings, I got my group through the canyon, which was the hardest part, they just lost it mentally and physically on the end of the hike. My wife and I could have easily made it back to the car.

Again, I just wanted to share my experience with you so that this doesn't happen to you too. Do the canyon youre doing before you bring newbies. That's my biggest point.

I've got a question Shane and Tom for you, how do you guys come up with the "times" a canyon takes? Do you take an average? Or just go off of what you did? Thanks

I think it is fair to say that Shane and I are somewhat perplexed by why this canyon draws people who need to be rescued over and over again.

One reason I have not beta'd it yet is that I want to be thorough and include a good description of the escape route, which I have not yet done; and the hard-climb-up bypass route, which I have not yet done; and the Pandora's Lite version of the canyon, which I have not yet done.

And I guess it is fair to say that I am happy to have Shane bear the responsibility for all the rescues in there, to the extent the beta-provider does. Mr K, of course, bears no responsibility because he declines to recognize even the concept of him having any responsibility for the consequences of his actions.

Tom

[TommyBoy]

I think it is fair to say that Shane and I are somewhat perplexed by why this canyon draws people who need to be rescued over and over again.

One reason I have not beta'd it yet is that I want to be thorough and include a good description of the escape route, which I have not yet done; and the hard-climb-up bypass route, which I have not yet done; and the Pandora's Lite version of the canyon, which I have not yet done.

And I guess it is fair to say that I am happy to have Shane bear the responsibility for all the rescues in there, to the extent the beta-provider does. Mr K, of course, bears no responsibility because he declines to recognize even the concept of him having any responsibility for the consequences of his actions.

Tom

I know by most standards I'm considered wierd, but isn't the responsibility on the person doing the canyon to know what he's getting his group into? Unless the beta is flatout wrong then the person writing it should bear no responsibility IMHO. Pretty much every beta writer I've read states that canyons are dangerous and anyone doing them should know that so why blame someone else because you screwed up?

[Byron]

So Tom...does this mean that when you write the beta on this canyon it will be so completely and absolutely perfect that you are impervious to criticism, unlike Shane or Mike?

Excuse me...:topes:

[ratagonia]

I know by most standards I'm considered wierd, but isn't the responsibility on the person doing the canyon to know what he's getting his group into?

Unless the beta is flatout wrong then the person writing it should bear no responsibility IMHO.

Pretty much every beta writer I've read states that canyons are dangerous and anyone doing them should know that so why blame someone else because you screwed up?

Certainly, the user is 100% responsible for their own safety.

But this does not mean there is not a responsibility on the part of the Beta provider to do a good job. Just as with blame, the sum of responsibilities totals more than 100%.

But...

Are you talking legal responsibility or moral responsibility? Shane has done a good job of trying to characterize the difficulties of this canyon, but the rose-colored glasses of novice-canyoneer-beta-readers seems to bypass that part of the description. I think he has fulfilled his legal and moral responsibilities.

My comment was mostly a jest. :facepalm1:

Tom

[ratagonia]

So Tom...does this mean that when you write the beta on this canyon it will be so completely and absolutely perfect that you are impervious to criticism, unlike Shane or Mike?


Certainly not. While I try to make my beta foolproof, the ingenuity of fools should never be misunderestimated!!

:stud:

Tom :moses:

[MiCamp]

the ingenuity of fools should never be misunderestimated!!

I'm gonna get a tuxedo with this embroidered on it.

[spinesnaper]

Certainly not. While I try to make my beta foolproof, the ingenuity of fools should never be misunderestimated!!

:stud:

Tom :moses:

During ophthalmology residency there was a saying "You can't refract a 20/400 brain to 20/20." I personally think you have done a great job in your Zion book rattling your reader's cage before getting into the descriptions of Imlay and Heaps. Beta peddling --tough job.

Ken

[hesse15]

Certainly not. While I try to make my beta foolproof, the ingenuity of fools should never be misunderestimated!!

:stud:

Tom :moses:
Tom I think your problem and all of the other beta writers is that you know things and use your brain, and as strange it will sound most lets see 75% of people that do canyons left any brain cells at home and when they see "expert only" it cause the opposite effect they flock like bee on honey!!!!
or when you said "condition change" they think a alcatraz in summer is equal to an alcatraz in fall or winter!!!!
i think better warning is "if you overestimate yourself you can get seriously injured and elicopter rides are 40grand and up"
probably more efficient warning!!!!
i witness a guy that with 50% rain and flash flood warning just suggested is group to take snorkeling gears with almost deadly results as you are aware of!!!

[Bclark29]

You beat me by one hour. :giveit:.. Which exit did you take?

[Bclark29]

"As a matter of leadership ethics, the statement "My wife and I could have easily made it back to the car." is especially stinky :topes: Nothing like blaming your friends for your own mistakes. "

Yes, I take blame for what happened and yes you're right that I shouldn't blame it on my friends...but, I kinda do, a little. You guys say I didn't learn a lesson here, but I did. If you've never been through what I've experienced, you are either hiding a secret like I was or you've read others peoples post like mine that keep you from making a mistake like mine.

[Bclark29]

Also, didn't a bunch of boy scouts and leaders get stuck in Pandora's Box this year? If you hardcore canyoneers haven't done Pandoras yet, I highly suggest you give it a go. It's awesome. Probably my top 3 favorite canyons so far that I'VE done.

[hesse15]

my Pandora with RC was 7hrs car to car with lunch and pictures and not really rushing just his pace!!!!:bootyshake:

You beat me by one hour. :giveit:.. Which exit did you take?

so you did in 8hrs and you had time for :giveit:..... ,usually we did that home and take our sweet time !!!!:naughty:
we decided to find the climb up that we heard off to add to the site

[Bclark29]

I think it is fair to say that Shane and I are somewhat perplexed by why this canyon draws people who need to be rescued over and over again.

One reason I have not beta'd it yet is that I want to be thorough and include a good description of the escape route, which I have not yet done; and the hard-climb-up bypass route, which I have not yet done; and the Pandora's Lite version of the canyon, which I have not yet done.

And I guess it is fair to say that I am happy to have Shane bear the responsibility for all the rescues in there, to the extent the beta-provider does. Mr K, of course, bears no responsibility because he declines to recognize even the concept of him having any responsibility for the consequences of his actions.

Tom


Well, I've only done the Meeks Mesa Exit 1 1/2 times now. I'm pretty sure I saved it in my GPS, I'll go with you when you do it.

[Bclark29]

so you did in 8hrs and you had time for :giveit:..... ,usually we did that home and took our sweet time there!!!!:naughty:

Haha, I was doing :giveit: while i was flying in the helicopter. No for reals though, job well done, I've done Pandoras twice now, it's not easy, its tough.:clap:

[Bclark29]

Certainly, the user is 100% responsible for their own safety.

But this does not mean there is not a responsibility on the part of the Beta provider to do a good job. Just as with blame, the sum of responsibilities totals more than 100%.

But...

Are you talking legal responsibility or moral responsibility? Shane has done a good job of trying to characterize the difficulties of this canyon, but the rose-colored glasses of novice-canyoneer-beta-readers seems to bypass that part of the description. I think he has fulfilled his legal and moral responsibilities.

My comment was mostly a jest. :facepalm1:

Tom

Like I've said over and over and over, IT WAS MY RESPONSIBILITY AND MY FAULT FOR WHAT HAPPENED IN PANDORAS BOX...but, even if I didn't have newbies with me shanes beta was not as "full in description" as his other canyons. All I've ever used is shane's beta. I like it. I still use it to this day. I actually emailed him after my incident and told him that he needs to add WAY more to the canyons technicality, which he did. I never told him what had happened to me, and again IT WAS MY FAULT SO I DIDN'T FEEL THE NEED TO TELL HIM I ****ED UP.

Shane, I love youre BETA, keep up the good work.

[hesse15]

Haha, I was doing :giveit: while i was flying in the helicopter. No for reals though, job well done, I've done Pandoras twice now, it's not easy, its tough.:clap:
i noticed canyons difficulties change in base of how is the group dynamics, I had the fortune to have leisure times trough them for almost 7years with the best canyoneer out there.

so a canyon with him was a walk,but the same canyons when i took other people I did not know took me double the time.
so you will notice that when you find the right canyon-teammate everything go so much faster and look much easier!!!!
byt he was the guy that found pandora-box !!!!

for water i am paranoid so in summer I sometime carry a 6 liter dromedary and a small separate bottle in case i run out.
and usually in winter around 3-4liters also if i just hike to lake blanche!!!!!

[Bclark29]

who do you go with?

[hesse15]

who do you go with?
RC=Ryan Cornia (average joe website)

[hank moon]

I think it is fair to say that Shane and I are somewhat perplexed by why this canyon draws people who need to be rescued over and over again.

Over-emphasizing the ACA rating system might be a contributing factor. I have recently learned that some beginner canyoneers put great stock in the system. Most popular technical canyons are in the catch-all 3A/B category, some with a few little details tacked on at the end (stuff like "R" and "IV", for example). With rose-colored glasses firmly in place, one might look at Pandora's rating* and conclude that it's "kinda like Pine Creek, only spicier and longer - and without the water" But it's a lot more than that.

Perhaps the technical difficulty number in Pandora's rating should be upped to 4 ?

* 3A R IV - at climb-utah.com (http://climb-utah.com/Capitol/pandora.htm) 3A or B IV at BluuGnome.com (http://bluugnome.com/cyn_route/cap-reef_pandora/cap-reef_pandora.aspx) 3B R- at ajroadtrips.com (http://www.ajroadtrips.com/go/t/utah/capitol-reef/pandorasbox)

[Mountaineer]

...the ACA rating system might be a contributing factor...



I believe the flawed ACA rating system is definitely contributing.

[Bootboy]

I believe the flawed ACA rating system is definitely contributing.

Once again, I'm advocating a revision of the rating scale to a 1-5, instead of 1-4. Many class 3 canyons would and should be moved to 4, and a few select canyons would actually make the 5 rating.

[rockgremlin]

Men and their assumptions about women:facepalm:

I make that assumption for everyone I go with....especially women....:fitz:

[Bclark29]

Honestly, if I didn't make the mistake of bringing newbies with me on Pandora's, to me, Pandora's is just another sweet/ bad ass technical canyon. I've done Kolob twice now, once in the spring and once in early summer, that canyon is rated hard and I felt that it was super easy. Pandora's brings a new level to technicality, stemming and downclimbing. I agree that the rating on Pandora's should possibly be rated harder than what it's set at.

[Taylor]

Excellent story and thread Bclark. We did Pandora this summer and I agree that it should be regarded as harder than a 3 canyon. One of these days I will get around to posting some proper trip reports but the short story is this: Pandora was one of the toughest days ever in a canyon for us. Probably surpassed only by Poe and Heaps. I imagine the next time through there will be quite different, knowing what to expect.

I would also commend you for calling rescue and not going for the supplies yourself and splitting the group. Calling SAR as soon as it becomes obvious that help is needed makes it safer for rescue personnel and more likely to result in a positive outcome.

[Iceaxe]

A little history.... I have spoken with the CRNP rangers in great length about the rescues in Pandora's.

I was the first to release beta on Pandora's 10 years ago and rescues were rare in the canyon for the first 8 years. All the beta that followed the original release used the same route as my original description, which was the down Chimney exit.

That all changed when the over Meeks Mesa exit was released by another beta sprayer.... and SAR's skyrocketed. For the most part it is not the slot causing issues. It is the Meeks exit.

I added the more diificult Meeks exit to Climb-Utah when members began requesting it after it was outted.

Anyhoo... the NPS contacted all the beta peddlers about a year ago and asked us all to remove the Meeks exit and direct traffic down Chimney. I agreed and removed the exit, but others refused. Recently I have added the Meeks exit back into my beta so I can compete with those that refused. I did add some strong warnings about Chimney being the easier and preferred exit and Meeks being for experts only..... who knows if that will do any good. Most canyoneers believe they are experts and other websites do not have the same warnings regarding Meeks. Also on the map Meeks looks much more inviting than the long walk down Chimney.

The rescue that started this thread would probably not of occurred if they had of used the Chimney exit as technically its just a stroll and you can usually get water at Spring Canyon.

So.... that's a little of the canyons history. As far as I'm concerned the only major difficulty with Pandora's is it's a very long day, which turns into a bivy for noobs, large groups and those that believe the warnings don't apply to them.



Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[hesse15]

That all changed when the over Meeks Mesa exit was released by another beta sprayer.... and SAR's skyrocketed. For the most part it is not the slot causing issues. It is the Meeks exit.
Anyhoo... the NPS contacted all the beta peddlers about a year ago and asked us all to remove the Meeks exit and direct traffic down Chimney. I agreed and removed the exit, but others refused. Most canyoneers believe they are experts and other websites do not have the same warnings regarding Meeks. Also on the map Meeks looks much more inviting than the long walk down Chimney.
As far as I'm concerned the only major difficulty with Pandora's is it's a very long day, which turns into a bivy for noobs, large groups and those that believe the warnings don't apply to them.
Tap'n on my Galaxy G3
Ice, when we heard about the exit we just look at the mountain saw the crack and went up there.
i did not find very difficult and I am not really a strong hiker or a strong climber.so it really puzzle me how people get in trouble there! like in a lot of other situations.
warning are in place in the description, times are doubled for taking people away,but at the end.....is all about the "expert only " warning that make not prepared people to go there,dragging friends and neighbors in the process!!!
perhaps removing all the gps points and make people learn how to use a map?
they only put the gps points and after is like geocaching!!
probably so many SAR because there is cell reception so people are very quick in calling instead of taking themself out of trouble?
a warning about the cost of SAR?:nod:

[hesse15]

I've done Kolob twice now, once in the spring and once in early summer, that canyon is rated hard and I felt that it was super easy.
what about MIA?
that is a a nightmare with wet wetsuit and heavy packs!!!!!
i love Kolob but the MIA is a big deterrent for me:scared:

[Bclark29]

A little history.... I have spoken with the CRNP rangers in great length about the rescues in Pandora's.

I was the first to release beta on Pandora's 10 years ago and rescues were rare in the canyon for the first 8 years. All the beta that followed the original release used the same route as my original description, which was the down Chimney exit.

That all changed when the over Meeks Mesa exit was released by another beta sprayer.... and SAR's skyrocketed. For the most part it is not the slot causing issues. It is the Meeks exit.

I added the more diificult Meeks exit to Climb-Utah when members began requesting it after it was outted.

Anyhoo... the NPS contacted all the beta peddlers about a year ago and asked us all to remove the Meeks exit and direct traffic down Chimney. I agreed and removed the exit, but others refused. Recently I have added the Meeks exit back into my beta so I can compete with those that refused. I did add some strong warnings about Chimney being the easier and preferred exit and Meeks being for experts only..... who knows if that will do any good. Most canyoneers believe they are experts and other websites do not have the same warnings regarding Meeks. Also on the map Meeks looks much more inviting than the long walk down Chimney.

The rescue that started this thread would probably not of occurred if they had of used the Chimney exit as technically its just a stroll and you can usually get water at Spring Canyon.

So.... that's a little of the canyons history. As far as I'm concerned the only major difficulty with Pandora's is it's a very long day, which turns into a bivy for noobs, large groups and those that believe the warnings don't apply to them.



Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

Shane, I disagree, Meeks Mesa is way shorter route than going down Chimney, that's why I chose it. There wasn't any water either. It was summer when we did this. Also, after completing Meeks Mesa earlier this year, it's really not that hard, the hardest part is finding the proper route up it. I wasn't lost, on the Meeks Mesa approach, my members couldn't continue. I think either exit we would have taken, the same result would have happened. Plus, once you do figure out the proper route up Meeks, once you hit the top its all flat walking then you're back down hill to where you originally hiked up at.

[Iceaxe]

I'm just telling you the story per the CRNP rangers. And you ovrrlooked the part about water avaiablity in Chimney, which I recall was a major issue for your group. The rangers are really trying to discourage the Meeks exit because of its high SAR rate.


Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[Iceaxe]

FWIW: The spring in Spring Canyon is year round. The only part that chages is how far down Chimney canyon it flows before sinking into the sand.

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[hesse15]

Over-emphasizing the ACA rating system might be a contributing factor. I have recently learned that some beginner canyoneers put great stock in the system. Most popular technical canyons are in the catch-all 3A/B category, some with a few little details tacked on at the end (stuff like "R" and "IV", for example). With rose-colored glasses firmly in place, one might look at Pandora's rating* and conclude that it's "kinda like Pine Creek, only spicier and longer - and without the water" But it's a lot more than that.
Perhaps the technical difficulty number in Pandora's rating should be upped to 4 ?
* 3A R IV - at climb-utah.com (http://climb-utah.com/Capitol/pandora.htm) 3A or B IV at BluuGnome.com (http://bluugnome.com/cyn_route/cap-reef_pandora/cap-reef_pandora.aspx) 3B R- at ajroadtrips.com (http://www.ajroadtrips.com/go/t/utah/capitol-reef/pandorasbox)
I think the main reason of the rescues are
1) is a canyon with long approach and long exit
2) cell reception (edited) could be available more than other places like swell or hanksville
3) everybody says is a beautiful place so that attract a large number of people

if rescues are the main reason to jump the grade why not including the other 2 big SAR canyons: Subway in zion and blue jhon in the roost?
again a warning for the consequent cost of SAR probably is going to be a better deterrent than calling 4-5 or class 10 canyon or adding a warning like:

took 6 quart of water/person ,bivy sack and headlamp?

most of the rescues are due to exaustion more than broken limbs

[Bclark29]

Cell phone reception is NOT that easy to get there. I tried pretty hard to find a good signal.

[hesse15]

Cell phone reception is NOT that easy to get there. I tried pretty hard to find a good signal. ok I will edit:nod:

[Bclark29]

Well, since I'm going off of situations in canyons....I've done the easy Baptist Draw 4 times now. On my third trip doing it, we were on the last rappel that heads into Chute Canyon, we started heading up Chute and the son on a bitch was completely full of water. Luckily, again luckily, I had Shane's beta that explained how to go down Chutes Canyon and exit back up to the vehicle, that made for a hell of a trip too. Luckily we were prepared for a long day.

[DesertDuke]

Bclark29, thanks very much for posting this info. I learn nearly every time canyoneers post about problems they had. It usually comes with criticism, and you got some on here, so I appreciate that you put yourself out, knowing some would come, and posted the details anyway. Thanks again.