Countdown to Zion Closing

[mzamp]

Just over 16 hours until Zion closes with the Government shutdown. Get ready to go do those canyons that have been on your bucket list that you couldn't get permits for. :2gun: LOL

[JONBOYLEMON]

Sweet!!!!!!

[Eric Holden]

As long as it re-opens by the 31st....

[qedcook]

Goose Creek anyone? jk. I'm just trying to troll the thread!

[MrAdam]

Goose Creek anyone? jk. I'm just trying to troll the thread!

My thoughts exactly!

[Scott P]

Law enforcement in the parks isn't shutting down. In fact it's probably going to be beefed up to keep people out of the parks.

http://www.doi.gov/shutdown/fy2014/upload/NPS-Fact-Sheet.pdf

[qedcook]

That was the action I was anticipating from the National Parks, but I was just hoping so much that it wouldn't be so. It's lame that as soon as they run out of money, they don't let us onto our land.

[Erik B]

Total travesty! It is our land and we all pay for it! SO UPSETTING!

[dougr]

It's lame that as soon as they run out of money, they don't let us onto our land.

Exactly. And exactly why the claim that public lands are our lands is BS.

How about an experiment where we the people run the park?

[qedcook]

If it does actually shut down, it'll probably be open by the weekend. And if not, just go somewhere else this weekend and it'll be back open by the next.

[accadacca]

http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/us-national-park-service-yosemite-closed-230x300.jpg

[mzamp]

I guess the person who updates the web site got furloughed because you can still reserve permits. :banana:

[Scott Card]

Zion web page is now down

[qedcook]

Has anyone actually tried to go to the park and been turned back? I wonder if they are just closing down the Washington D.C. locations and most other parks are kind of pretending this sillyness wasn't happening. On a different thread, someone mentioned they are still allowing people to hike Buckskin, but I don't think Buckskin is in a National Park/Monument.

[Bo_Beck]

Has anyone actually tried to go to the park and been turned back? I wonder if they are just closing down the Washington D.C. locations and most other parks are kind of pretending this sillyness wasn't happening. On a different thread, someone mentioned they are still allowing people to hike Buckskin, but I don't think Buckskin is in a National Park/Monument.
Wire Pass, Wave and locale. Not issuing permits or hikers. (435) 688-3200
Vermilion Cliffs National Monument (http://www.blm.gov/az/st/en/prog/blm_special_areas/natmon/vermilion.html)
Monument Manager: Kevin Wright
345 E. Riverside Drive
St. George, UT 84790-6714
(435) 688-3200
Hours: 7:45 a.m.-5:00 p.m. Monday through Friday
10:00 a.m.-3:00 p.m. Saturday

[hesse15]

Law enforcement in the parks isn't shutting down. In fact it's probably going to be beefed up to keep people out of the parks.
http://www.doi.gov/shutdown/fy2014/upload/NPS-Fact-Sheet.pdf

so how they pay for it?
does not make sense if the park cannot pay employee to let citizen in but they can find the money to keep people out
is kind of ridiculous

[jaredbelch1]

so how they pay for it?
does not make sense if the park cannot pay employee to let citizen in but they can find the money to keep people out
is kind of ridiculous

It's not about finding or not finding the money. Any job that is non-essential (basically not directly related to constitutional responsibilities, the protection of human life, or the protection of property) no longer has money approved since the budget has not passed, and the debt ceiling has been reached (Credit cards maxed out).

The way they pay for the "essential" functions is by delaying paying other items. Government funding has budgeted items, and appropriated items (and debt, and other stuff). The budget is redone each year, and each department asks for a certain amount of money. Appropriations are basically congress saying lets pay 2 million to fix a road in Texas, or lets send 5 million to research tree frogs in Zion NP. So when the budget is not passed, and there is no money to borrow on the credit cards, they take from one fund to pay other funds and will delay repaying debt or paying to study tree frogs until it is resolved.

What is ridiculous is that we have let our country get trillions of dollars in debt and then act surprised when the bills come due and the credit card gets declined.

As to Zion NP, I say go for it. Go hike the Subway or Kolob or some other section that isn't as heavily traveled as the main canyon and have a great time doing it. The NP's were created for our enjoyment and that doesn't change simply because the rangers can't give you a map or tell you the weather. :nono::cool2:


(I'm certainly no economist so my explanations are based on how I understand it - feel free to add/correct as needed)

[TommyBoy]

so how they pay for it?
does not make sense if the park cannot pay employee to let citizen in but they can find the money to keep people out
is kind of ridiculous

thats government for ya, if there is a less efficient way of doing something they will find it.

[dougr]

http://freebeacon.com/wwii-vets-knock-over-shutdown-barrier-to-visit-wwii-memorial/

Vets take over park in DC. We do this in Zion.

[qedcook]

Has anyone actually tried to go to the park and been turned back?

Still curious about this one?

[jaredbelch1]

Still curious about this one?

Looks like it.

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/politics/56945670-90/zion-park-national-rangers.html.csp

[mferl]

Curious if anyone has tried to drive on Rt 9 through Zion NP. I know they are closing the park, but did they close Rt 9 down too?

Headed there next week from Las Vegas. Gonna be a bitch if we have to drive all the way around just to get to the east side of Zion.

[jaredbelch1]

Curious if anyone has tried to drive on Rt 9 through Zion NP. I know they are closing the park, but did they close Rt 9 down too?

Headed there next week from Las Vegas. Gonna be a bitch if we have to drive all the way around just to get to the east side of Zion.

The link I posted above is a news story about the park shutdown. It says Route 9 is open to regular traffic, but the tunnel is closed to vehicles requiring an escort.

No personal first hand knowledge, just what the news reported.

[mzamp]

The budget is redone each year...


Bahahahahaha :lol8: When was the last time a budget was passed?

At least we should see a decline in the rescues and deaths from Zion canyoneering. :twisted:

[jaredbelch1]

Bahahahahaha :lol8: When was the last time a budget was passed?

At least we should see a decline in the rescues and deaths from Zion canyoneering. :twisted:

Good point I should have said supposed to :haha:

[mferl]

..

[mferl]

The link I posted above is a news story about the park shutdown. It says Route 9 is open to regular traffic, but the tunnel is closed to vehicles requiring an escort.

No personal first hand knowledge, just what the news reported.

Thanks for clearing that up.:2thumbs:

[Brit Beermonster]

Probably a bit like, how long is a piece of string but any ideas when the finance issue will be sorted? A few of us are heading out from the UK on 13 Oct and have 3 days of permits for Zion, hotel and hire car booked: Is the closing down a regular occurrence? Do these things drag on? Any other canyons we can use, suitable for inexperienced? Thanks

[deagol]

Probably a bit like, how long is a piece of string but any ideas when the finance issue will be sorted? A few of us are heading out from the UK on 13 Oct and have 3 days of permits for Zion, hotel and hire car booked: Is the closing down a regular occurrence? Do these things drag on? Any other canyons we can use, suitable for inexperienced? Thanks

I feel for you. This is a bummer for sure. I don't think anyone knows when this ridiculousness will end.

[Sandstone Addiction]

Probably a bit like, how long is a piece of string but any ideas when the finance issue will be sorted? A few of us are heading out from the UK on 13 Oct and have 3 days of permits for Zion, hotel and hire car booked: Is the closing down a regular occurrence? Do these things drag on? Any other canyons we can use, suitable for inexperienced? Thanks

If I were in your situation, I would definitely have a back up plan just in case. Plenty of other options that "we the people" have not been locked out of. Check climb-utah.com and the other beta sites.

Neither side seems to want to budge and this fiasco could drag on for weeks.

[Brit Beermonster]

Thanks Dave, I've found Arrow Canyon north of Vegas, Yankee Doodle, Red Caves and Fat Man's Misery which look ok and appear to be open. I'll check out climb-utah.com (http://climb-utah.com/)

Matt

[Michael_WB]

Matt,

Don't forget Water Canyon behind Hildale, which is a great day out. A stiff hike all the way to the top with some big rappels (up to 175ft) and some cool narrows and downclimbing sections too. Not a 'beginner' canyon, but not too difficult either: manageable with some thought and reflection as to device friction, rope pulls and maybe providing spots/belays for some of the trickier parts.

I've just returned from 10 days in Zion/Escalante, where we descended Echo, Keyhole, Behunin, Spry, Pine Creek, Water Canyon, Mystery, Egypt 1 and Neon. Only the last two were firsts for us (e.g. it was my 4th time in
Mystery and 6th in Pine Creek), but I am mighty glad our trip didn't coincide with this shutdown business... my canyoneering buddy Maarten is still out there for 10 days yet, but I hope is finding solutions to this odd situation.

Also I hope the weather holds out for you; some years I've been in mid October and it has been pretty cold and a big change from the 2 weeks before. Other years it has stayed mild until the beginning of November.

Cheers,

Michael
(a Brit in Switzerland)

[Brit Beermonster]

Thanks Michael,
My son is along for the first time so I want to stick to the smaller raps, I think 175' might spook him, hey it'd spook me!! He's done a course but I don't want to put him off, mind you he's 18 so I'm sure he'll cope.
Matt.

[Bshelton]

The 175'r is fairly tame and due to the wide open space it's in and the large ledge for the rap station it really doesn't have the potential intimidation factor one might expect. Your on the wall the entire time, no free hanging sections. If he can repel Pine Creek he should have no problems in Water Canyon.

[russellben]

So with no permits being distributed anyone up for Paria Canyon assuming there is no one standing at the trailhead to stop us from entering:naughty:

[erial]

Probably a bit like, how long is a piece of string but any ideas when the finance issue will be sorted? A few of us are heading out from the UK on 13 Oct and have 3 days of permits for Zion, hotel and hire car booked: Is the closing down a regular occurrencn?e? Do these things drag o Any other canyons we can use, suitable for inexperienced? Thanks

Also near Vegas: Anniversary Narrows

North of Zion: Kanarra Creek

[Brit Beermonster]

Thanks again all, we're going to be busy! Who needs Zion - that's a joke btw!

[rick t]

It would be hard to believe that no canyons were done in Zion over the weekend. 9 is still open through the park. If the road up the canyon past the junction is closed at the junction, that still leaves a few possibilities. You could come down the Kolob Res road from cedar, do they have law enforcement rangers guarding the wildcat and left fork trailheads? what about Kolob, and Boundary, and out the MIA? why couldn't you do a drop off and then later a drive by pickup for Keyhole and Pine Creek, to avoid leaving a car parked along the side of the road? I don't think the tea party having their heads up their asses, and holding congress and the country hostage has to mean that we have to sit home for the duration and just piss and moan.

[flatiron]

It would be hard to believe that no canyons were done in Zion over the weekend. 9 is still open through the park. If the road up the canyon past the junction is closed at the junction, that still leaves a few possibilities. You could come down the Kolob Res road from cedar, do they have law enforcement rangers guarding the wildcat and left fork trailheads? what about Kolob, and Boundary, and out the MIA? why couldn't you do a drop off and then later a drive by pickup for Keyhole and Pine Creek, to avoid leaving a car parked along the side of the road? I don't think the tea party having their heads up their asses, and holding congress and the country hostage has to mean that we have to sit home for the duration and just piss and moan.

:popcorn:

[Iceaxe]

http://i40.tinypic.com/3346ohk.jpg

[Iceaxe]

what about Kolob, and Boundary, and out the MIA?

Boundary doesn't require a permit, and who actually bothers with one for Kolob?

[ratagonia]

Boundary doesn't require a permit, and who actually bothers with one for Kolob?

Little extra walk to get in there.

Tom

[RedMan]

Not to worry, Washington county will be re-opening Zions in a few days.

[Bshelton]

Wells hopefullys theys wills gets theirs acts togethers sooners thans laters sos wes cans gets backs tos ours favorites Nationals parks-Zion.

[lucach]

I'm curious... How does the shutdown save money exactly?
They are not paying rangers, but they have not fired them either... so... according to law, once they re-open, unless they default, they WILL have to pay back ALL the money they own them.

So for the employees it was just a paid vacation... but the government will have lost millions in unrealized gains...
So I'm puzzled... How is a (temporary) government shutdown supposed to help? I'm sure someone must have thought long and hard to get to implement this NP closing measure as emergency cost cutting... but I don't get it.

[tanya]

Yep. Like a bunch of 2 years old holding their breath. Hopefully Zion is open by Saturday, but there is a protest going on. Not against the park or employees of the park of course, but the Government.69967

[qedcook]

I'm curious... How does the shutdown save money exactly?

It doesn't save money, it actually costs and loses a bunch of money; and none of it makes any sense. And it's not supposed to make sense, it's supposed to hurt the people... But enough about all of Obama's policies and laws, let's talk about the Zion shutdown! :lol8:

[tanya]

Thursday, October 10, 2013 2:55 PM

News Flash!!

All of Utah’s National Parks and Monuments will be open beginning Saturday, October 12!!
The State of Utah has reached an agreement with Secretary of the Interior Sally Jewell to staff the parks with National Park Employees, paid for by Utah State Funds.

Enjoy YOUR National Parks & Monuments!!


Ken Gotzen-Berg
Director
Kane County Office of Tourism
435-644-5033
78 South 100 East, Kanab, UT 84741
kgotzenberg@VisitSouthernUtah.com (kgotzenberg@VisitSouthernUtah.com)
www.VisitSouthernUtah.com (http://www.kaneutah.com/)

[Bshelton]

A big thank you to the state of Utah!

[tanya]

Let me just add that this agreement has been reached verbally with Governor Gary Herbert and the Department of the interior. They have their attorneys working on the legal agreement with many I's to dot and T's to cross before we have a solid agreement signed. It is projected that these matters will be dealt with in the next 24 hours. Many details to work out and ramp up issues, some discussion about phases of opening. Stay tuned for more details and be a bit cautious about what you announce and promise until we have solid information. The great news is that the efforts from the local collation of counties has made a big difference. Also, thanks to our Governor for stepping up to support us in this effort.

Dirk Clayson(435) 616-1234

[accadacca]

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/11/adunuty5.jpg

[ratagonia]

I'm curious... How does the shutdown save money exactly?
They are not paying rangers, but they have not fired them either... so... according to law, once they re-open, unless they default, they WILL have to pay back ALL the money they own them.

So for the employees it was just a paid vacation... but the government will have lost millions in unrealized gains...
So I'm puzzled... How is a (temporary) government shutdown supposed to help? I'm sure someone must have thought long and hard to get to implement this NP closing measure as emergency cost cutting... but I don't get it.

According to the law, the government cannot spend money, except on essential services. So 'non-essentials' are not allowed to work, and 'essentials' are allowed to work, but they are working for free.

Once a CR gets passed, Congress MIGHT be so kind as to pay the people that worked, and the people that did not work, for the days that they worked or not. The smart money is on that Congress will pay them.

Thus, when the state of Arizona asks for a guarantee that they will be repaid, they are out of luck. The gov'mint cannot commit to that. I think Utah did the smart thing. It is a good investment for Utah to pay to open the parks, even without being reimbursed. And they will most likely be reimbursed.

On the flip side, what a jerk the Secretary of the DOI is, insisting that the WHOLE Grand Canyon Park be re-opened. Heck, let the state do a partial - THEY'RE paying!

Feds: "Oh, we can't SAY we will reimburse you... wink wink nudge nudge... say no more..."

Tom :moses:

[trackrunner]

I'm curious... How does the shutdown save money exactly?


According to the law, the government cannot spend money, except on essential services. So 'non-essentials' are not allowed to work, and 'essentials' are allowed to work, but they are working for free.

Tom is right. It is not about saving money it's about there is no law or contract to spend money without a budget (or CR). This is the law that forces a shutdown with out a budget http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Deficiency_Act

[Brit Beermonster]

From Zion's Website http://www.nps.gov/shutdown/index.html 'Because of the federal government shutdown, national parks are closed and the National Park Service website is not being maintained.
As a result of donations from states to the National Park Service, the following national parks are temporarily re-opened.


Arches National Park (http://www.nps.gov/arch/index.htm) (Utah, open October 11-20)
Bryce Canyon National Park (http://www.nps.gov/brca/index.htm) (Utah, open October 11-20)
Canyonlands National Park (http://www.nps.gov/cany/index.htm) (Utah, open October 11-20)
Capital Reef National Park (http://www.nps.gov/care/index.htm) (Utah, open October 11-20)
Cedar Breaks National Monument (http://www.nps.gov/cebr/index.htm) (Utah, open October 11-20)
Glen Canyon National Recreation Area (http://www.nps.gov/glca/index.htm) (Utah, open October 11-20)
Natural Bridges National Monument (http://www.nps.gov/nabr/index.htm) (Utah, open October 11-20)
Zion National Park (http://www.nps.gov/zion/index.htm) (Utah, open October 11-20)
Rocky Mountain National Park (http://www.nps.gov/romo/index.htm) (Colorado, open October 11-20)
Statue of Liberty National Monument (http://www.nps.gov/stli/index.htm) (New York, open October 12-17)
Mount Rushmore National Memorial (http://www.nps.gov/moru/index.htm) (South Dakota, open October 14-23)
Grand Canyon National Park (http://www.nps.gov/grca/index.htm) (Arizona, open October 12-18)

We sincerely regret any inconvenience the closures cause and look forward to once again welcoming you to your national parks. In the meantime, we respectfully request that you honor all park closures. With more than 20,000 National Park Service employees furloughed, the staff that remain on duty are focused on protecting park resources and human life and safety and cannot provide the visitor services that you have come to expect from us for nearly 100 years.
Thank you for your support during this time.
For more information, go to www.doi.gov/shutdown (http://www.doi.gov/shutdown). ' Looks open to me!

[jman]

From Zion's Website http://www.nps.gov/shutdown/index.html 'Because of the federal government shutdown, national parks are closed and the National Park Service website is not being maintained.
As a result of donations from states to the National Park Service, the following national parks are temporarily re-opened.


Arches National Park (http://www.nps.gov/arch/index.htm) (Utah, open October 11-20)
Bryce Canyon National Park (http://www.nps.gov/brca/index.htm) (Utah, open October 11-20)
Canyonlands National Park (http://www.nps.gov/cany/index.htm) (Utah, open October 11-20)
Capital Reef National Park (http://www.nps.gov/care/index.htm) (Utah, open October 11-20)
Cedar Breaks National Monument (http://www.nps.gov/cebr/index.htm) (Utah, open October 11-20)
Glen Canyon National Recreation Area (http://www.nps.gov/glca/index.htm) (Utah, open October 11-20)
Natural Bridges National Monument (http://www.nps.gov/nabr/index.htm) (Utah, open October 11-20)
Zion National Park (http://www.nps.gov/zion/index.htm) (Utah, open October 11-20)
Rocky Mountain National Park (http://www.nps.gov/romo/index.htm) (Colorado, open October 11-20)
Statue of Liberty National Monument (http://www.nps.gov/stli/index.htm) (New York, open October 12-17)
Mount Rushmore National Memorial (http://www.nps.gov/moru/index.htm) (South Dakota, open October 14-23)
Grand Canyon National Park (http://www.nps.gov/grca/index.htm) (Arizona, open October 12-18)

We sincerely regret any inconvenience the closures cause and look forward to once again welcoming you to your national parks. In the meantime, we respectfully request that you honor all park closures. With more than 20,000 National Park Service employees furloughed, the staff that remain on duty are focused on protecting park resources and human life and safety and cannot provide the visitor services that you have come to expect from us for nearly 100 years.
Thank you for your support during this time.
For more information, go to www.doi.gov/shutdown (http://www.doi.gov/shutdown). ' Looks open to me!

So I assume getting a new permit for Zion is out of the question - however, I have a permit for the subway next week on Friday. Will they honor that? Or am I SOL?


-Brett

[Rob L]

It would appear that the links in Brit Beermonster's post are back up & working, as are other certain Federal websites (like the NTSB), but not nasa.gov.

That's a good start, because I'll be back out to southern Utah in 3 weeks time.

Rob

(another beer monster :slobber:) Matt wher're you from?

[qedcook]

Tthere is no law or contract to spend money without a budget (or CR).

This hasn't stopped Obama thus far! :lol8: