Alcatraz Rescue

[Iceaxe]

Salt Lake Man Rescued In Wayne County


(KUTV) A 55-year-old Salt Lake man was hiking with two coworkers in Alcatraz Canyon, 15 miles northeast of Hanksville on Thursday afternoon, when apparently slipped and became wedged in a narrow slot canyon.


According to the Wayne County Sheriff's Office his coworkers worked for several hours trying to free the man, but were unsuccessful and had to go for help.


Search and Rescue crews weren't able to reach the victim on Friday, but resumed the search Saturday morning.


A Utah Highway Patrol helicopter spotted the man at around 9:30 a.m. Officials say the man was uninjured but seemed to be suffering from hypothermia.

http://www.kutv.com/news/top-stories/stories/vid_7104.shtml

[Bootboy]

:facepalm1:

[Absolute Gravity]

Sounds like he spent the night alone? Obviously not enough known about the situation from that little article but making sure the poor guy wasn't alone would be a high priority for me. Must have been one long night.

[JT Local]

A chopper spotted him.... Does that mean he escaped Alcatraz on his own and walked out???

[Iceaxe]

It's the news... I wouldn't read to much into their "facts" until the rest of the story comes out. By spotted they could mean his friends, or one of his friends flew in with them and pointed the spot out. Why they were using a chopter in the first place is kinda strange.


Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[rockgremlin]

Poor guy - that was most likely a cold, miserable night. At least he's still alive...

[Sandstone Addiction]

It's the news... I wouldn't read to much into their "facts"

Kinda like how they have Alcatraz pinpointed on their google map near the San Rafael River...:facepalm1:

[Taylor]

I have some first-hand info about this one. Laura and I came home late Saturday night after a couple days in the Roost. We took with us our friend Jeff (who is about our age) and his 17 year old son Mitch, and Mitch's friend Chris. Jeff and Mitch have joined us in a few Zion trade routes plus Checkerboard earlier this summer. We have never hiked with Chris but know him and his family pretty well. This was his first canyoneering experience. Jeff is athletic but not very fit, the teens are both athletic and fit. I give their background to help understand why I made some decisions on Friday. Also of note is that I haven't done Alcatraz yet.

We left Draper on Friday morning and made it to Alcatraz trail head around noon. Our plan for the weekend was to do Alcatraz in the afternoon, then find a place to camp and do Not Mindbender the next morning(Saturday). There was a truck parked at the big drop with a rope still attached. After close inspection we decided to use it rather than park my truck next to it and set up another rig. After gearing up, Laura went down, then Mitch and Chris. Before Jeff could drop in, a couple came running/walking the rim towards us, and one of them(named Brandon) asked: "Do you have a satellite phone?" I answered that I didn't but did have my Spot and that we could get a strong mobile signal up on the hill to the west. He then told us they had a friend stuck in the canyon, at what I believe is the crux, right before the last potholes and the final rap. Their friend got stuck around 7:00 pm on Thursday. When they couldn't free him they decided to go for help. They got lost in the dark, spent the night "under a rock" and then eventually made it back to the trail head (and us) about 1:00 Friday.

Now I have half my group at the bottom of the rap and some decisions to make. We decided to have Jeff tell Laura what was going on while Brandon and I drove up the hill to call for help. It seemed prudent for me to communicate with rescue. A call to 911 got the sheriff's dispatcher who then had a deputy and later SAR call me back. We gave them all the necessary info and they began to mobilize SAR. It was about 1:30 and they estimated they would be there by 4:00. During the conversation with SAR, I told them I was a member of Salt Lake County SAR and offered to help. They requested, and I agreed, that my group not continue to descend the canyon.

So now we have to get Laura, Mitch and Chris back up to the rim. I wasn't comfortable with having them ascend the big free hanger so we looked for a way to climb out. It looked like there was a walk up down canyon on the east side but they couldn't find a way to get over there. They were able to scramble up to 30' below the rim on the right side. We anchored a rope off the truck about 100 yds down canyon where I rapped down to them. I taught them how to ascend and we spent an hour getting everyone back up. Now what do we do? It was decided we should go find a place to camp and plan for the next day's canyon. By the time we were ready to take off it was about 3:30. We checked with Brandon and his (girl)friend to see if they needed anything and we all agreed or hoped SAR would be arriving any minute. It felt like we should be passing SAR vehicles as we drove back north toward RR Spring road and the Mindbender area to camp. We never saw them but did see the DPS helicopter fly over at about 6:00 pm. I was somewhat surprised to read that they didn't find or get the guy out until 9:30 the next morning. The news may be wrong about that.

Okay armchair rescuers/canyoneers, should I have gone down canyon on my own or with Laura to help the guy? What would you have done in that situation? Honest evaluation is appreciated.

[jman]

Thanks for your first-hand narrative.

Seems like you were there at a good time and made good calls!

Too many chefs can complicate things, or just simply, get in the way. And when too many leaders go in to help, sometimes their party will start to make other decisions and get the group more confused, lost, split up, etc. It's kinda along the principle of when you get lost - is to stay put and don't make things worse.

I would of stayed until at least the first SAR vehicle arrived before ditching em just in case they needed help, food, water, etc.



-Brett

[ratagonia]

Since you asked...

As a SAR team member, you know it takes way way longer to perform a rescue than most people think. Since no actual injuries were indicated, going in is entirely optional.

But, if you had two competent people available (you and Laura), I woulda taken some food, water, warm clothing etc. down in and at least made contact with them, let them know help was on the way. You mighta been able to unstick them. 24 hours of freezin' their whatevers off might have motivated them.

THEN they would have gotten out that night, a complex SAR response could have been avoided, and you'd be the HERO!!!:stud:

But... yeah. Pretty optional.

Yes, there is an easy climb out a ways down that ledge. Good call not doing the big climb out.

Tom

[Iceaxe]

I have spent a night stuck in a slot before, it's one of the more unpleasant experiences in my life. Stuck, cold and alone would be brutal. Just having someone to talk with would be a huge help.


If I was with a relatively strong group (my normal partners in crime) I probably would have descended the canyon and tried to correct/help the situation.


If I was with my wife and kids I probably would have brought them to the rim, made camp, and then soloed down to help fixing ropes/webbing at the two drops.


But understand, I have done the canyon several times and know what to expect. If I had never done the slot before I probably would have retreated.

:popcorn:

[Jaxx]

I have been to Alcatraz a couple times. I would not want to be stuck in that dark cold canyon with all the spiders. Knowing that it was Wayne county SAR I would have gone in to help the guy. They were limited on their rope knowledge last time I saw them in action.

[hesse15]

I have spent a night stuck in a slot before, it's one of the more unpleasant experiences in my life. Stuck, cold and alone would be brutal. Just having someone to talk with would be a huge help.
If I was with a relatively strong group (my normal partners in crime) I probably would have descended the canyon and tried to correct/help the situation.
If I was with my wife and kids I probably would have brought them to the rim, made camp, and then soloed down to help fixing ropes/webbing at the two drops.
But understand, I have done the canyon several times and know what to expect. If I had never done the slot before I probably would have retreated.
:popcorn:
totally agree with Ice,
1) you need to make your group/familysafe,2) assess your skills,strenght and familiaity with terrain,if you did alcatraz many times you know what is in there, if you never been there probably will not be wise going down.
4)as Tom said if your group is STRONG you can bring supply (food water clothing warm hands) carry extra ropes and sling and see if you can set an hauling system and try to unwedged the guy from above and below.
but that require solid skills and very cool head otherwise you risk more wedged people and more trouble for SAR.
alcatraz is skinny at spot and with mud stem high can require a lot of energies.
really good to have the little Scooter in those type of canyon
AKA:a strong skinny small person that can go in front and direct bigger people up when stuff get too tight, been there for emotional support sporting the most beautiful smile you can have when the butterfly start to go in your brain.

or if you are a little on the big side contact ScottP and ask for advices before you get in a possible narrow canyon, he tested them all so is prospective is very helpful.
never ask a skinny person advice what to do when stuck,because usually they never get stuck badly!!!!!:popcorn:

[JT Local]

I am also a member of a SAR team and have done Alcatraz. The amount of time and effort it would take to extract a subject out of the most narrow parts of Alcatraz is mind boggling. One hell of a task for sure. Technical rescues here in Joshua Tree seem to take forever, and 99.9% of them occur in wide open spaces, 30 minutes from town. Has anyone here participated in a rescue similar to the Alcatraz incident? I'm sure that is an interesting story.

[french_de]

1) you need to make your group/familysafe,2) assess your skills,strenght and familiaity with terrain,if you did alcatraz many times you know what is in there, if you never been there probably will not be wise going down.
4)as Tom said if your group is STRONG you can bring supply (food water clothing warm hands) carry extra ropes and sling and see if you can set an hauling system and try to unwedged the guy from above and below.
but that require solid skills and very cool head otherwise you risk more wedged people and more trouble for SAR.
alcatraz is skinny at spot and with mud stem high can require a lot of energies.
really good to have the little Scooter in those type of canyon
AKA:a strong skinny small person that can go in front and direct bigger people up when stuff get too tight, been there for emotional support sporting the most beautiful smile you can have when the butterfly start to go in your brain.

or if you are a little on the big side contact ScottP and ask for advices before you get in a possible narrow canyon, he tested them all so is prospective is very helpful.
never ask a skinny person advice what to do when stuck,because usually they never get stuck badly!!!!!:popcorn:


Wow! This reminds me of when we last visited Alcatraz exactly 2 years ago. When we first visited Alcatraz 4 months earlier in June it was bone dry and for the most part it was a cake walk, there were a few tight spots here and there but moderate stemming for the larger canyoneers was the solution. Spring forward to October 2011 and Alcatraz is now full a water. What a difference that made!. The water in Alcatraz upped the challenge level of the canyon. The slippery mud made stemming very hard and the going a lot slower. I was tempted to try and squeeze thru rather than climb. That made for some scary almost get stuck moments. Standing and sloshing through cold waste deep water without wet suits zaps ones energy levels. Unfortunately one large member of our group did become stuck, really stuck, and what I read maybe in the same place that this person last week got stuck at. Fortunately for us we had a various sized group members with us sprinkled ahead and behind the stickee . It took 4 of us about 35 to 45 minutes to get our guy unstuck. It seemed like an eternity to the stuckee. Our little Scooter guy was able to get below and provide a shoulder to push up on. I stemmed up and above and provided a piece of webbing for our stuck guy to pull up on. Another two medium sized individuals in the group provided a push from behind and up. With some squirming, pushing, pulling, grunting and screaming we all got past this crux. It was an exhausting affair. :eek2:

[hesse15]

Spring forward to October 2011 and Alcatraz is now full a water. What a difference that made!. . :eek2:

i consider alcatraz a summer or warmer time canyon, when is to hot to do other stuff ,is always cool down there and the exit is not very long and will not like to shred to pieces my wetsuit there:bootyshake:

[IBMJolley]

I was the individual rescued from Alcatraz on Saturday at 9:30 on the 29th I will always be indebted to those who came to my aid that day. My wife and my five children are thankful for your efforts.

[Sombeech]

Great to hear from you!

[IBMJolley]

If anyone can provide me with the group that rescued me I would appreciate it. I would like to thank them properly. Particularly I remember a Officer Russell. thank you MJ

[Canyoneerman]

IBM Jolley, I

[IBMJolley]

I made that last repeal from the bolt that's a fixed on the left-hand side just before you exit. That drop this into a body of water that was about waist deep. I was able to raise myself and begin stemming out into the next body of water approximately 6 feet away. That is when I slipped and fell down into the crevice. That is where I spent the night. I spent the night and the next morning holding myself up due to the fact that I was wedged between my back my chest and without holding myself up I would not have been able to breathe. Around 12 o'clock The next morning I made the decision to push my way down deeper and make the turn and fall into the next pool of water which again was about 6 feet away. I dropped into that pool and push myself over to the next pool that I had to swim through I walked out of the canyon and just kept walking through that riverbed I did not see the trail that led back up to where the car was parked. I spent Friday night under a rock and was found Saturday morning at 9:30 by brave men and women that rescued me. MJ

[Sandstone Addiction]

IBMJolley, I was so glad to hear that you made it out of Alcatraz and hopefully you are doing well. I can only imagine how terrifyingly awful that experience must have been. I too, am thankful for those that sacrifice their time and resources to help us in our time of need. Maybe down the road sometime, if you feel so inclined, we'd love to hear some details of your ordeal. But if not, I totally understand and respect that.

Not sure if this helps or not, but Wayne Co SAR has a facebook page https://www.facebook.com/pages/Wayne-Co-EMS-Emergency-Management/108628102539383

Edit: I guess we were writing at the same time. Thanks for the details.

[IBMJolley]

I made that last repeal from the bolt that's a fixed on the left-hand side just before you exit. That drop this into a body of water that was about waist deep. I was able to raise myself and begin stemming out into the next body of water approximately 6 feet away. That is when I slipped and fell down into the crevice. That is where I spent the night. I spent the night and the next morning holding myself up due to the fact that I was wedged between my back my chest and without holding myself up I would not have been able to breathe. Around 12 o'clock The next morning I made the decision to push my way down deeper and make the turn and fall into the next pool of water which again was about 6 feet away. I dropped into that pool and push myself over to the next pool that I had to swim through I walked out of the canyon and just kept walking through that riverbed I did not see the trail that led back up to where the car was parked. I spent Friday night under a rock and was found Saturday morning at 9:30 by brave men and women that rescued me. MJ

[Canyoneerman]

IBM Jolley, glad you made it out ok and are safe. I can’t image what it was like being trapped for so long. I was stuck for just a few minutes and that experience was crazy enough. For me the most difficult part was the constriction on my chest, I couldn’t take a full deep breath, although I could breath. I found it difficult at times because of the lung constriction to stay mentally calm and assess the situation. If you’re up to sharing your story, I would be curious as to how you were able to keep a mental focus and get out.

[Iceaxe]

Thanks for the update and details. It's always nice when the story has a happy ending.

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[jamestkirk]

IBMjolley

why did you think descending Alcatraz in a tuxedo was a wise move?

do you feel construction type hardhats provide better protection than conventional climbing helmets?

did you find that plastic armored kneepads provide little purchase while trying to chimney in a sandstone slot canyon?

Kirk Out

[spinesnaper]

:ne_nau::ne_nau::popcorn::popcorn:

[Slot Machine]

Kirk Out

Bravely done, trekkie troll. :roll:

Big props to IMBJolly for stopping by and sharing his experience. It is a great thing to learn from other peoples adventures... and misadventures.

[Eric Holden]

IBMjolley

why did you think descending Alcatraz in a tuxedo was a wise move?

do you feel construction type hardhats provide better protection than conventional climbing helmets?

did you find that plastic armored kneepads provide little purchase while trying to chimney in a sandstone slot canyon?

Kirk Out

69835

[Mountaineer]

Thanks for sharing your experience IMBJolly . Amazing story, and positive ending!

[jamestkirk]

first of all, Kirk can kick Picard's ass any day!! :lol8:

second, i'm not a troll. i have a great deal of valid information concerning this event. which i will share in order to educate those who are just getting into this sport.

third, it really gets tiresome witnessing over and over people who don't respect the danger involved in descending these canyons.

why bother posting in this thread? well, the trash and debris left behind after these events for one. also the bolting that occurs is always a bummer. and lastly, the time, money and effort put into the rescue. time and effort that could be completely avoided if only the party being rescued had put more time into gaining the skills and knowledge necessary to descend a canyon like Alcatraz.

i haven't been in all of the canyons in the Roost, but i feel Chambers and Alcatraz are among the most difficult in that region. a little background on me: i have lived in Moab for 10 years. i have worked as a climbing and canyoneering guide in this area and have made many descents in the Moab area, White Canyon, North Wash, The Roost and The Swell.


Kirk Out

[Slot Machine]

i have a great deal of valid information concerning this event. which i will share in order to educate those who are just getting into this sport.


Well, then share it. So far your posts have offered nothing useful, insightful or funny.

Content please. Try again.

*strikes a match on Kirk's badge*

*lights cigar*

[Mountaineer]

third, it really gets tiresome witnessing over and over people who don't respect the danger involved in descending these canyons.



It seems there are more people descending canyons each year, true. It stands to reason there will be more accidents and mishaps. Alcatraz requires a certain level of physical fitness and skills for sure. Perhaps some focus should be put into more education, preparedness tips, environment care, and awareness.

I recall even Capt. Kirk needing to get rescued a few times as well.

[qedcook]

It seems there are more people descending canyons each year, true. It stands to reason there will be more accidents and mishaps.

How do canyoneering accidents numbers compare with climbing accidents numbers?

[hesse15]

first of all, Kirk can kick Picard's ass any day!! :lol8:

second, i'm not a troll. i have a great deal of valid information concerning this event. which i will share in order to educate those who are just getting into this sport.
Kirk Out

are you sharing?
we are here waiting!!!!:popcorn::hurryup::yawn::kbasa:

byt this forum is constructive, this guy i am sure learned his lesson the hard way.
spending the freezing night alone stuck, that is harsh enough!!
and was humble to posted so that require big balls on my mind.
ps been a guide does not make you an expert!!!!!
met plenty of ego driven guides in Moab!!!
not everybody knows that mud can change condition badly.

[Mountaineer]

How do canyoneering accidents numbers compare with climbing accidents numbers?

Great question. I'm not aware of a comparative study. Would you guess there are more in canyoneering than in climbing? Or less?

The below graph is interesting, but it is based on US Population (not on number of new mountaineers):



69840




And quoting the author: "My overall conclusion: For your best chances at experiencing a mountaineering accident, try climbing unroped or above your abilities on rocky terrain sometime between May-Sept in California or Washington."

[Eric Holden]

:popcorn:

[Mountaineer]

And quoting the author: "My overall conclusion: For your best chances at experiencing a mountaineering accident, try climbing unroped or above your abilities on rocky terrain sometime between May-Sept in California or Washington."

Another quote from the study on accidents:

"...[are there other] factors that contribute to more accidents or are there just more people climbing? (Probably the answer is there are just more people climbing since the mountains are more accessible in Colorado than Alaska.) ..."

It would be a helpful study to compare the increase in number of canyoneers over the years vs. accidents.

[jamestkirk]

i'm getting there. you know, it takes 3 posts to be able to post pictures.

let me say one thing though...accidents happen. i have nothing against solo trips going bad or groups that encounter sudden weather changes or unexpected conditions in the canyon or just the random slip and fall. and that's what we have here, a slip and fall.

it is my opinion that the entire debacle could have been avoided if this group better educated themselves of the dangers involved with this route and chose a route more appropriate to their ability level.

Kirk Out

[qedcook]

Would you guess there are more in canyoneering than in climbing? Or less?

I'd guess there are more per capita in canyoneering. I won't make many friends on this website by saying this, but climbers follows the safe principles of S.C.R.E. anchoring far better than canyoneers, mainly because climbers bolt more. And climbing has a better rating system to express the difficulties of a climb so you know when a climb is "above your abilities".

[hesse15]

i'm getting there. you know, it takes 3 posts to be able to post pictures.

let me say one thing though...accidents happen. i have nothing against solo trips going bad or groups that encounter sudden weather changes or unexpected conditions in the canyon or just the random slip and fall. and that's what we have here, a slip and fall.

it is my opinion that the entire debacle could have been avoided if this group better educated themselves of the dangers involved with this route and chose a route more appropriate to their ability level.

Kirk Out

agree ,but all of us had our smaller or bigger mishap before learning the proper way.
what i cannot stand are the REPEAT OFFENDERS, those are equal to serial killers.

that weekend after weekend endangered lives of unaware beginners!
and there are bunch out there that are just perfecting their plans now with the coming winter!
just because they heard that black hole is a "to do" in january,but they do not own anything more that a shortie and not planning to spend any money to fix it!!!!!
and off course unless they bring 10 newbies with them they are not happy!!

[Dev]

third, it really gets tiresome witnessing over and over people who don't respect the danger involved in descending these canyons.

why bother posting in this thread? well, the trash and debris left behind after these events for one. also the bolting that occurs is always a bummer. and lastly, the time, money and effort put into the rescue. time and effort that could be completely avoided if only the party being rescued had put more time into gaining the skills and knowledge necessary to descend a canyon like Alcatraz.

Kirk Out

How do you know how skilled or prepared these people were? Anybody can slip the most experience person on here can slip! This guy did a good thing by posting his experience for us to learn from. We shouldn't be so harsh and quick to judge.

[Mountaineer]

I'd guess there are more per capita in canyoneering. I won't make many friends on this website by saying this, but climbers follows the safe principles of S.C.R.E. anchoring far better than canyoneers, mainly because climbers bolt more. And climbing has a better rating system to express the difficulties of a climb so you know when a climb is "above your abilities".

Not sure climbers follow principles, in general, better than canyoneers. I've found while climbing, some of the bolt stations are not setup ideally (EARNEST) for example.

True, climbing requires a constant focus and attention to technique detail.

Canyoneering covers a diverse amount terrain. It requires a multitude of skills (navigation, climbing, anchor building, exposure). I've seen it attempted and viewed as 'technical hiking', so sometimes people may just go on a hike and not realize other equipment and skills needed. In sport/trad climbing you always need a rope and harness. Many times in canyoneering you are not roped up, so a simple slip/fall can be fatal. Even a sprained ankle can lead to a required rescue for survival.

The rating system, while it has flaws, is more than adequate to warn or prepare the person or group for wandering out. At a minimum, it is enough to ask more questions or read the entire description. A problem may be that people don't know one exists.

Training (rescue skills), physical fitness, and experience/wisdom can all minimize a canyoneer's risk for injury, rescue, or death.

[jamestkirk]

my 3 friends and i descended Alcatraz on thursday oct. 3rd. now, we all know that the slot canyons are the sewer pipes of the desert. so when we started seeing power/granola bar wrappers, well, they could have been washed down. who knows if that stuff came from this event. but we kept seeing more and more. some partially consumed items too and a rather fresh looking apple.whatever.

but then we ran into more trash. construction type plastic hard hats, red and white and their associated parts. farther down there was a medium sized camelback pack in the mud. then there were some odds and ends like knives, pens and camera cases. further along there was a big green and black north face pack with a 60m rope! looked to be 11mil! there was a bunch of other stuff in the pack but we didn't feel like going through it at the time. i believe in that area is where we also found some plastic knee pads bound together and several pieces of clothing. i must say that the strangest thing i've found in a slot is cumber bun. yes, a tuxedo cumber bun!

we couldn't clean up and take out all of the stuff. we did take the packs out. not easy when the slot gets tight as you all know. we had been traveling small and light to accommodate the squeeze and shuffle so we took what we could. i'm also wondering about two bolts that looked to be drilled recently. they were placed canyon right in a wider spot with a sandy bottom where there is no rap. i grabbed a new fangled locker that was left on one hanger. couldn't figure out what their purpose was.

when my companions got home they went through the packs. it's good to be prepared, but man, enough is enough when you have to negotiate slots of those dimensions. like i said, a 60m rope when all you need is 50 feet. multiple knives(sometimes a good thing to have), a water pump/iodine tablets, pitons but no hammer, the list goes on and on. there were also 2 cameras. one damaged beyond use and another still in good shape. we pulled the cards out and plugged them in. i found out why i found that cumberbun...i believe this is that party:

69894
69895
69896

KIRK OUT

[Slot Machine]

KIRK OUT

^^ Now THAT is content!! ^^ Putting the snarky comments into context helps A LOT.

Best. Post. Ever. :lol-lol::lol2::banana::lol8: :haha: Well done!

*hands Kirk a cigar* :five:

[ratagonia]

my 3 friends and i descended Alcatraz on thursday oct. 3rd. now, we all know that the slot canyons are the sewer pipes of the desert. so when we started seeing power/granola bar wrappers, well, they could have been washed down. who knows if that stuff came from this event. but we kept seeing more and more. some partially consumed items too and a rather fresh looking apple.whatever.

...

KIRK OUT

I'm sorry. I am not following. Bizzare stuff. What episode are we talking about????

http://www.startrek.com/database_article_navigator

Tom

[hesse15]

I'm sorry. I am not following. Bizzare stuff. What episode are we talking about????

http://www.startrek.com/database_article_navigator

Tom
no Tom I think the pictures are from the camera that the guy Kirk found from the party that got the guy stuck and abandon him in the canyon overnight alone ( that is pretty sad)
very bizarre definitely bizarre!!!!
new bolts?why leave behind the wrappers,
11mm that is Euro style!!!!!! must be a beast to carry trough
and what the guy has on his chest?:facepalm1:

[Mountaineer]

...but then we ran into more trash. construction type plastic hard hats, red and white and their associated parts...that the strangest thing i've found in a slot is cumber bun. yes, a tuxedo cumber bun!

we couldn't clean up and take out all of the stuff.



Trash, with more bolt holes and bolts in Alcatraz? Ugh. :facepalm1: I loved the canyon the way I found it last year.

Seems obvious that the same group in the pictures left most (or all) of what you found behind.

There may be good reason they left gear/trash (unanticipated events), but I agree with the Captain on challenging their initial judgement. You take minimal gear for a canyon like Alcatraz.

[jamestkirk]

James T Kirk is headed over to the Roost this afternoon with the same friends for a nice camp and descent down Larry Canyon tomorrow. who knows what we'll encounter this time.:haha:

i'll let this tempest brew....see ya...



sure glad the anchor held!!
69930

[Erik B]

why did you think descending Alcatraz in a tuxedo was a wise move?


Canyoneering CAN be a gentleman's sport:
http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?69984-Ridiculous-Canyon-Attire

:nod:

...though I'll concede that $8 DI wool suits get pretty heavy and cumbersome when wet...and maybe not ideal in mae westie scenarios :fitz:

[deagol]

BUSTED!

Nice job, Captain.

This reminds me of those running races where people dress up in costumes. Are people getting cocky nowadays?

[deagol]

....
and what the guy has on his chest?:facepalm1:

Maybe it's a pre-cursor to the Borg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borg_(Star_Trek))?

[Eric Holden]

Maybe it's a pre-cursor to the Borg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borg_(Star_Trek))?

Radio Chest Harness. Possible SAR?

[deagol]

Radio Chest Harness. Possible SAR?
Yeah, that looks like it could be a radio chest harness, but no way SAR.

SAR wouldn't leave garbage all over or wear a tuxedo into a canyon. The costume seems like a gimmick of some sort (notice the bow tie). As for the borg-like radio harness, I would hate having anything like that on me in a tight claustrophobic place like Alcatraz.

[jamestkirk]

my friends and i had a great time out at The Roost yesterday with a fun and pleasant descent down Larry Canyon. great warm october weather. but raining cats and dogs today in moab.

we talked a lot about what we found in Alcatraz and that party's descision making process. we had fun using some gear abandoned in the packs we found(we backed up and extended one of the anchors in Larry with that stuff). my friends informed me there was some stuff left in those packs that would have been handy during the group's nightime egress from the canyon, the headlamp for one!!:lol8:

there's been talk about the chest harness one member wore.:haha:. we found one of those little Talkabout radios in a pack. mind you, those packs were found while still in the slot. not somewhere in the open sections down canyon or on the exit. i believe the the stuck canyoneer was rescued down canyon?

I've run across a great article written on Tom's Canyoneering site. It pretty much sums up my feelings about that event and why i've decided to post on this thread. Quoted from: http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/utah/introduction/ethics-a-style/

ETHICS is about how what you do effects other people and the environment we all share. In canyoneering, ethics is largely about what you leave behind.

STYLE is about demonstrating competence and taste. Style is about respect. Style is more of a personal matter, but the canyoneering community has an interest in promoting good style (largely because good ethics is part of good style).

here's another shot of a member of that descent team. the gloves he is wearing were abandoned:
69976

Kirk Out

[Sombeech]

Wow I would hate to have my camera found by somebody else with photos that didn't show me in the best light :scared:

But an interesting insight to what happened nonetheless.

I've had my share of embarrassing photos when I was trying to have fun and be a goofball.

http://www.bogley.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=21156&stc=1&d=1213064288

[Eric Holden]

I bear my embarrassing photos like a badge of honor....

69977

[domo617]

Yeah, that looks like it could be a radio chest harness, but no way SAR.

SAR wouldn't leave garbage all over or wear a tuxedo into a canyon. The costume seems like a gimmick of some sort (notice the bow tie). As for the borg-like radio harness, I would hate having anything like that on me in a tight claustrophobic place like Alcatraz.

It’s a radio chest harness, I use the same one for ski patrol.

[Sandstone Addiction]

we had fun using some gear abandoned in the packs we found(we backed up and extended one of the anchors in Larry with that stuff). my friends informed me there was some stuff left in those packs that would have been handy during the group's nightime egress from the canyon, the headlamp for one!!:lol8:

there's been talk about the chest harness one member wore.:haha:. we found one of those little Talkabout radios in a pack. mind you, those packs were found while still in the slot. not somewhere in the open sections down canyon or on the exit. i believe the the stuck canyoneer was rescued down canyon?

Why don't you just return their gear?:ne_nau:

[Sombeech]

Yeah, I think it would be nice to get their gear back.

[Slot Machine]

Not. So. Fast. :nono:

A suggested plan for the Captain:

1. Post the rest of their photos on Bogley. Pretty please.
2. Save up the money to ship all of their stuff back.
3. Ship their stuff back and hope they don't use it.

THEN all will be right in the world. :haha:

[qedcook]

Agreed, give the gear back. It seems like keeping it would just be to insult them and make fun of them on the forum.

[deagol]

You could argue that people should be appreciative of Kirk for taking the stuff out of the canyon, as it was left there by it's original owners. Doesn't it cease being "theirs" and become litter at that point?
Returning it might be the right thing to do, but unfair for Kirk to have to pay for the shipping cost.

[Absolute Gravity]

Hell, if they want the stuff back they know who to get a hold of... Probably be a little embarrassing but hey, take your lumps and get on with it. My guess is they are re-thinking their whole involvement in the sport.

[accadacca]

Should this thread be split?

[Slot Machine]

Should this thread be split?

Nope. It's following it's course.

:popcorn:

[ratagonia]

Not. So. Fast. :nono:

A suggested plan for the Captain:

1. Post the rest of their photos on Bogley. Pretty please.
2. Save up the money to ship all of their stuff back.
3. Ship their stuff back and hope they don't use it.

THEN all will be right in the world. :haha:

The photos James T has already posted can be considered "fair use", being news.

However, posting more photos is both in bad taste and a violation of the original photographer's copyright.

Please don't.

While I am generally a fan of ridicule as a teaching tool, I believe enough has been delivered to make the point.

Tom :moses:

[ratagonia]

You could argue that people should be appreciative of Kirk for taking the stuff out of the canyon, as it was left there by it's original owners. Doesn't it cease being "theirs" and become litter at that point?
Returning it might be the right thing to do, but unfair for Kirk to have to pay for the shipping cost.

Actually, not. The 'finder' is obliged to make a reasonable effort to find the 'loser', before updating to 'keeper'.

(couldn't find a citation - perhaps a more advanced shade-tree lawyer will pipe in).

Tom

[Absolute Gravity]

While I am generally a fan of ridicule as a teaching tool, I believe enough has been delivered to make the point.

I would consider you a tenured expert of ridicule as a teaching tool, having been on the receiving end of a relatively easy but effective berating from you. If you say enough, than it is probably enough.

[jamestkirk]

Wow I would hate to have my camera found by somebody else with photos that didn't show me in the best light :scared:...
...I've had my share of embarrassing photos when I was trying to have fun and be a goofball.


be it known that my participation in this thread would be nonexistent had the party exercised proper style and ethics. since they were such a junk-show and trashed the canyon and wasted the effort of SAR, they've earned the community's wrath. once you bring in SAR then it's public.


Agreed, give the gear back. It seems like keeping it would just be to insult them and make fun of them on the forum.

so far we've just used some webbing to beef up that anchor in Larry. and the nice gloves pictured above were utilized by my partner who dragged them out. personally, i feel that shit was abandoned, because it was! they totally trashed the canyon and called in SAR to boot! it wasn't easy getting the packs out. like i said, they were abandoned in the slot. one was abandoned before the 'crux'!

now, i posses the camera and 2 cards. my partners have the packs and don't feel like putting any more effort into delivering them to the owner's doorsteps. sure, if they want to come to moab, then we might give them some stuff. also, i'm quite happy to send the camera and cards in the mail. that's easy.

as much as i'd like to keep posting photo's, i shall refrain unless i have to prove a point. i'm really pissed though. i want to go back in Alcatraz and clean out the rest of the shit left behind. i live here, i feel like this is my back yard. we weren't prepared to act as a garbage scow! we probably packed out 30lbs of gear.

Kirk Out

69990

[ratagonia]

69990

Thank you for your janitorial services, and restraint.

Tom

[Byron]

Holy Moses! I just checked back into this thread, as the last time I was here it only had 2 or 3 posts in it...I wondered what all the commotion was about.

My God, this is hilarious! Hats off to you Kirk, quite crafty and clever! You're a friggin' funny guy!

I say post more pictures, if they show anything of interest...like more of Mr. Tux. I wonder if it was he or the guy with the giant belly that got stuck? Classic, man...

I would keep the gear...finders keepers! I found a nice smartphone last spring at the Jacob Hamlin Arch route of Coyote and sent it back to the owner in Salt Lake, I had called her and asked just to send me back the cost of shipping, but it never came. It was only five bucks but still, I did the "right" thing? Not anymore...I find it, it's mine.

BTW, Picard was a chump and Kirk was THE MAN because he took full advantage of tapping the nookie every time the opportunity presented itself.

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR5FCUm9fzRZ87U7b5xVgFVNPVzI6zAy 5HhM71wRQ5cUsk3WYmw

[Absolute Gravity]

now, i posses the camera and 2 cards. my partners have the packs and don't feel like putting any more effort into delivering them to the owner's doorsteps. sure, if they want to come to moab, then we might give them some stuff. also, i'm quite happy to send the camera and cards in the mail. that's easy.

Totally agree if they don't make the effort to make it right. And I'd almost bet that they aren't that interested in getting any of it back anyway. But if they contacted me, maybe offered a case of good beer, you know, made it right I'd be happy to give them their shit. What would you want an 11mm rope for anyway :cool2:. If they want to be canyoneers they'll make it right, if not I'm sure you can find a use for that cumberbun, right?

[Absolute Gravity]

be it known that my participation in this thread would be nonexistent had the party exercised proper style and ethics.

Hope you stick around, you're killing it.

[jman]

I was gonna add that anyone who posts about accidents, whether it happened to them or another person in there party, just expect a good lashing from the welcoming commitee.

And don't take it too personal, but do - people need to learn from their own mistakes and the mistakes of others. Either rappelling in a very low friction mode while your hand is numb down a waterfall or wearing a tuxedo in a canyon or messing up a anchor or "vandalizing" a canyon or poaching a canyon and getting caught - there are always a lesson to be learned.

And Tom is the master of ridicule but does so in a constructive way (most if the time). But a few, not so much. There ego gets in the way.


-Brett

[accadacca]

Nope. It's following it's course.

:popcorn:
Ah, gotcha. I had a hard time following it. Entertaining read. :popcorn:

[trackrunner]

You could argue that people should be appreciative of Kirk for taking the stuff out of the canyon, as it was left there by it's original owners. Doesn't it cease being "theirs" and become litter at that point?
Returning it might be the right thing to do, but unfair for Kirk to have to pay for the shipping cost.

I am grateful he removed that stuff from the canyon. THANK YOU for cleaning up after others and doing the right thing by practicing leave no trace for others to come and enjoy!

there is a difference between mislaid property & lost property. mislaid property becomes unclaimed property after a while. but that is for lawyers to argue about common law history. . .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost,_mislaid,_and_abandoned_property

I try to live my life by doing the right thing. The right thing is for the owners of the stuff to ask for it back, and pay any shipping costs before it is shipped or pick up in person. Since the poster also carried the items out, purchasing his favorite beverage would be in good taste even if they don't want their stuff back.

The poster has identified he has it, and now they have to ask for it, or it will become unclaimed property. When they contact the poster they may need to listen to his rant since he stands on the soap box on top of their gear.

[Slot Machine]

However, posting more photos is both in bad taste and a violation of the original photographer's copyright. ... While I am generally a fan of ridicule as a teaching tool, I believe enough has been delivered to make the point.

69994


I would keep the gear...finders keepers! I found a nice smartphone last spring at the Jacob Hamlin Arch route of Coyote and sent it back to the owner in Salt Lake, I had called her and asked just to send me back the cost of shipping, but it never came. It was only five bucks but still, I did the "right" thing? Not anymore...I find it, it's mine.

69992


I was gonna add that anyone who posts about accidents, whether it happened to them or another person in there party, just expect a good lashing from the welcoming commitee.

69993

:lol8:

[spinesnaper]

We are nothing here if not neighborly!

Love the incriminating photos.

Captain-who knows perhaps shame will keep the owners from claiming their goods.

Finders keepers losers weepers is from Roman law. Those are the folks who like to nail people up to timbers and pour molten metal down the throats of people they disagreed with. It is generally invoked by the school yard bully after you have been pinned to the asphalt and liberated from your possessions to justify keeping the contents of your pockets. Our laws tend to follow judeo christian values ( do unto others...etc.).

By posting here, I think you can consider that you have adequately notified the owners that you are holding their items. Please let us know if they contact you. Perhaps you can encourage them to post here.

Ken

[Byron]

pour molten metal down the throats of people
That is soooo gnarly!!! I gotta look that up!

[qedcook]

they've earned the community's wrath.

Wrath's a strong word. Disapproval? Surprise?

You're free to keep the gear. I've kept plenty of canyon booty in my day. I just wouldn't do it to spite or teach the group a lesson. And you shouldn't feel entitled to the gear because the group used perceived bad canyoneering practices or techniques. If they request it back and make it easy to get it back to them/reimburse you, I'd say you should return it.

[spinesnaper]

Totally agree

Someone had a bad day. We are all one day away from a bad day. To misquote Shaun: "there are canyoneers who have overnighted in a canyon and there are canyoneers who are going to overnight in a canyon." Did inexperience contribute to their bad day? We presume so. That does not mean I disapprove or wish them ill will. No, just the opposite. We all started at rock bottom. I hope they do contact the Captain and get their stuff back. I hope they post here so we get the full scope.

Oh the hot metal mouth wash. I think I read that in Gibbon, The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.

Ken


Wrath's a strong word. Disapproval? Surprise?

You're free to keep the gear. I've kept plenty of canyon booty in my day. I just wouldn't do it to spite or teach the group a lesson. And you shouldn't feel entitled to the gear because the group used perceived bad canyoneering practices or techniques. If they request it back and make it easy to get it back to them/reimburse you, I'd say you should return it.

[Iceaxe]

After reading this thread there is one item I can guarantee.... with such a cocky and over confident attitude Capt Kirk's day is coming. I have watched the outdoors bring more highly skilled and better prepared canyon guru's to their knees then Kirk.

Sometimes it's a good idea to show a little class and be a little humble... because it's really going to suck when it's your turn in the barrel.



Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[ratagonia]

Finders keepers losers weepers is from Roman law. Those are the folks who like to nail people up to timbers and pour molten metal down the throats of people they disagreed with.

Which they learned from the Parthians, most famously, Crassus, though it was most likely just war propaganda to enrage the populace.

"Subsequently Crassus' men, being near mutiny (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutiny), demanded he parley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parley) with the Parthians, who had offered to meet with him. Crassus, despondent at the death of his son Publius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Publius_Licinius_Crassus_(son_of_triumvir)) in the battle, finally agreed to meet the Parthian general; however, when Crassus mounted a horse to ride to the Parthian camp for a peace negotiation, his junior officer Octavius suspected a Parthian trap and grabbed Crassus' horse by the bridle, instigating a sudden fight with the Parthians that left the Roman party dead, including Crassus.[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crassus#cite_note-15) A story later emerged that, after Crassus' death, the Parthians poured molten gold into his mouth as a symbol of his thirst for wealth.[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crassus#cite_note-16) Or, according to a popular but historically unreliable account that it was by this means that he was put to death."

Crassus was the wealthiest man in Rome by quite a bit, in a city with a lot of very rich persons. He ran a private fire department that arrived on the scene of a house fire, where he would then negotiate with the owner to buy the property at a very low price. Many sold to him, rather than lose everything. His wealth at the time of the Parthian campaign has been estimated by some at about 100x the current wealth of Bill Gates.

He is also famous for crucifixion - being the general that defeated Spartacus and crucified 6000 slaves strung along the via Appia from Capua to Rome. Thus ended the last major slave revolt of the Roman Republic. Crucifixion was reserved for revolting slaves, as slaves were known not to have souls. Later, it was used to punish dissidents in provinces that were on the edge of revolt, especially by governors that had a cruel streak, as many of them did.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crassus#Syrian_governorship_and_death

Tom :moses:

[spinesnaper]

Tom

Thanks for the history lesson! Still think I read it in the Decline and Fall of The Roman Empire.

Ken

[MrAdam]

i want to go back in Alcatraz and clean out the rest of the shit left behind. i live here, i feel like this is my back yard. we weren't prepared to act as a garbage scow! we probably packed out 30lbs of gear.69990


We went down Alcatraz yesterday and packed out some more of the trash left behind in the canyon including a climbing rope and the white helmet the lady was wearing in the picture. I saw two bolts on a wall above a downclimb that I assume is where he got stuck, but there didnt seem to be any really skinny sections around that location.

There was also a bolt with a handline above another downclimb that while slightly difficult/exposed could easily be done with partner assits/sequencing. Is this bolt new also?

[Mountaineer]

I saw two bolts on a wall above a downclimb that I assume is where he got stuck



Ugh.




There was also a bolt with a handline above another downclimb that while slightly difficult/exposed could easily be done with partner assits/sequencing. Is this bolt new also?



Really? I don't remember this one being there. Maybe I missed it last year.

[MrAdam]

Really? I don't remember this one being there. Maybe I missed it last year.

It wasnt a very tough downclimb and the bolt and handline were very obvious on canyon left.

[Scott P]

We went down Alcatraz yesterday and packed out some more of the trash left behind in the canyon including a climbing rope and the white helmet the lady was wearing in the picture.

Thanks for helping clean up the canyon!

[Mountaineer]

It wasnt a very tough downclimb and the bolt and handline were very obvious on canyon left.

Ugh.

[ratagonia]

Tom

Thanks for the history lesson! Still think I read it in the Decline and Fall of The Roman Empire.

Ken

Later, in the Empire period, cruelty was raised to new levels. I believe there were various political opponents executed by pouring lead down their throats, and things like that.

I believe the "Decline and Fall" is considered outdated, and includes quite a few fishy stories as if they were true. Modern scholarship is more circumspect and presents these stories, but tends to state that the sources involved are not considered reliable.

Tom

[ratagonia]

It wasnt a very tough downclimb and the bolt and handline were very obvious on canyon left.

There is a single old bolt that matches that description - ie, above a downclimb that can be done easily with a meat/partner assist. I was trying to figure out how he got stuck in that vicinity... so yeah, maybe not there. That single old bolt precedes "our group", therefore I have not considered it important to remove it.

New ones? WTF???

Might go out there next month and get some work done.

Tom :moses:

[ratagonia]

It wasnt a very tough downclimb and the bolt and handline were very obvious on canyon left.

Leaving ropes behind?

Very sad.

Tom

[MrAdam]

There is a single old bolt that matches that description - ie, above a downclimb that can be done easily with a meat/partner assist. I was trying to figure out how he got stuck in that vicinity... so yeah, maybe not there. That single old bolt precedes "our group", therefore I have not considered it important to remove it.

New ones? WTF???

Might go out there next month and get some work done.

Tom :moses:

The two new bolts are on a slanted shelf on canyon right just before a short, easy downclimb prior to the bolt/handline. I am assuming that the bolts were placed during the rescue to remove the stuck canyoneer. I looked all over and couldnt figure out where he would have been stuck in this area though.

[ratagonia]

The two new bolts are on a slanted shelf on canyon right just before a short, easy downclimb prior to the bolt/handline. I am assuming that the bolts were placed during the rescue to remove the stuck canyoneer. I looked all over and couldnt figure out where he would have been stuck in this area though.

I find it hard to believe that the party in question had any idea how to place bolts, even poorly.

Tom

[spinesnaper]

I believe the "Decline and Fall" is considered outdated, and includes quite a few fishy stories as if they were true. Modern scholarship is more circumspect and presents these stories, but tends to state that the sources involved are not considered reliable.

Tom

:facepalm1:How embarrassing.

All kidding aside, I think I read the books 30 years ago. I am not sure but I think Gibbon wrote at the time of the American Revolution. I would hope that academic standards have become much more rigorous over the past 200 plus years. As I recall it was a fun read: "such are the vicissitudes of fortune." It would be fun to check out the Livy's texts on Roman history from Oxford.

Ken

[ratagonia]

:facepalm1:How embarrassing.

All kidding aside, I think I read the books 30 years ago. I am not sure but I think Gibbon wrote at the time of the American Revolution. I would hope that academic standards have become much more rigorous over the past 200 plus years. As I recall it was a fun read: "such are the vicissitudes of fortune." It would be fun to check out the Livy's texts on Roman history from Oxford.

Ken

Pretty amazing effort by Gibbon. The real start of classical Roman scholarship.

Livy is good, though I found it beneficial to listen to them on iPod rather than read them. Helps to keep the names straight.

Tom

[spinesnaper]

Pretty amazing effort by Gibbons. The real start of classical Roman scholarship. Livy is good, though I have found it beneficial to listen to them on iPod rather than read them. Helps to keep the names straight.

Tom

Sounds perfect for the drive from Los Angeles to the Swell.

[MrAdam]

I find it hard to believe that the party in question had any idea how to place bolts, even poorly.

Tom

Oops, I was under the impression that the stuck canyoneer had to be rescued. After going back in the thread, I see that he was able to get out on his own. This makes the location of the two bolts even more peculiar.

[Canyoneerman]

Sounds like someone is setting up shop for a guide service, bolting every little drop.

[ratagonia]

Sounds like someone is setting up shop for a guide service, bolting every little drop.

Based on what?

Prejudice/stereotyping?

Do you have any evidence, or is this just the fruit of a conjecturing mind?

Tom

[Canyoneerman]

No proof, but after seeing some of the bolt placements in Yankee Doodle, I just like to blame guide services for bolting every small down climb. Although I know there are groups out there still placing bolts in random locations (which is the more likely scenario in this case). It’s my opinion if you’re going to do a canyon like Alcatraz, you should have the downclimbing skills to complete the canyon without placing bolts. Even the bolt just before the crux is questionable.

[hesse15]

Sounds like someone is setting up shop for a guide service, bolting every little drop.

nahh hard to say to a rich fat cat, "sorry you too fat for the canyon"
guided places usually are more wide size friendly

[hesse15]

No proof, but after seeing some of the bolt placements in Yankee Doodle,.

why you care?
let people of any size and shape enjoy safely paying a guiding service for a lifetime memory and experience ,just go somewhere else.
i know there are pretty remote canyons in Powell's area in wich you can play all time you want and ghosting the hell of it and do not see a single piece of webbing!!!

but yankee doodle? why do you care???

[ratagonia]

No proof, but after seeing some of the bolt placements in Yankee Doodle, I just like to blame guide services for bolting every small down climb. Although I know there are groups out there still placing bolts in random locations (which is the more likely scenario in this case). It’s my opinion if you’re going to do a canyon like Alcatraz, you should have the downclimbing skills to complete the canyon without placing bolts. Even the bolt just before the crux is questionable.

The climbers-disguised-as-climbing-guides who applied approximately 50 bolts to Yankee Doodle are an embarrassment to the profession. They are unlikely to run further afield. I am unsure on who bolted up Cherry in the VRG, also an embarrassment for whoever did it.

Agree on other points.

Tom :moses:

[qedcook]

an embarrassment for whoever did it.

Too quick to judgement. Not everyone sees the sanctity of life and safety in canyons the same as you do. That doesn't make them an embarrassment.

[Bootboy]

Too quick to judgement. Not everyone sees the sanctity of life and safety in canyons the same as you do. That doesn't make them an embarrassment.

I don't think it has anything to with sanctity of life and safety. It just shows a lack of ingenuity, inflexibility, unwillingness to grow and learn, and a lower level of acceptable risk. You can enjoy that lower level of risk by not participating in the activity, instead you can stay at home or go somewhere else. I believe in working for certain things. Why do some people think everything has to be changed to suit themselves, instead of rising to a greater level of skill and achievement? Taking greater risks to get a more unique and exclusive experience is what drives a lot of people in the world of outdoor achievement and exploration, myself included. Why does everything have to get dumbed down to the lowest common denominator? You don't like unbolted canyons? Then don't do them or step up your game and learn how to do it. Don't just sit there and tell people to quit with their "propaganda" and insist that everything be brought down to your level.

I for one, would love to go on a bolt chopping crusade to include numerous canyons and countless bolts. I'm not ashamed to say it.

[JT Local]

Chop! Chop! Sometimes it has to be done.

[qedcook]

Why do some people think everything has to be changed to suit themselves? You don't like unbolted canyons?

I don't mind unbolted canyons. I don't mind bolted canyons. I'm flexible. I'm fine with keeping a canyon the same, and not forcing change. People who insist on canyons remaining unbolted no matter what seem more inflexible to me.

[Slot Machine]

I don't mind unbolted canyons. I don't mind bolted canyons. I'm flexible. I'm fine with keeping a canyon the same, and not forcing change. People who insist on canyons remaining unbolted no matter what seem more inflexible to me.

Not snarky at all- What could change in an unbolted canyon that would suddenly warrant bolts?

[DesertDuke]

Not snarky at all- What could change in an unbolted canyon that would suddenly warrant bolts?

If that canyon was "unbolted" because of a chopping spree.

[Slot Machine]

If that canyon was "unbolted" because of a chopping spree.

There are valid reasons to bolt (or possibly rebolt), but vengeance on a 'chopping spree' is not one of them.

I'd take the bolt removal (if I'd placed them) as a sign that I did not meet the challenge of the canyon. I'd assume that the bolt remover had very carefully considered their decision to chop, much like a person would very carefully consider the option to place bolts.

I've come across a bolt that Tom chopped one time, in Spry. I was very hypothermic at the moment of the discovery. I was PISSED to see the cut bolt sitting in the wall, because I knew I couldn't complete the downclimb. Now that some time has passed and I am warm, I realize that I did not meet the challenge of the canyon that day. I should have had a wetsuit, keeping me warm and functional at that drop. I could have helped my teammate pull ropes, and we could have helped each other down- if I was warm.

[Eric Holden]

This thread as taken the infamous "To bolt" or "Not to Bolt" detour...:kboom:

[deagol]

well, it sounds like someone may have put some bolts in related to this rescue ??? (hence the bolt discussion)

[hesse15]

This thread as taken the infamous "To bolt" or "Not to Bolt" detour...:kboom:
yeah they must new to the site if they do to do not know we exhausted that discussion in any possible forum for the last 10 years never getting any single agreement!!!!!
i will be more interest in starting a discussion over bathroom-no bathroom in sandtrax campsite!!!!:topes::bath::hurryup::fart:

[MrAdam]

well, it sounds like someone may have put some bolts in related to this rescue ??? (hence the bolt discussion)

I started this bolt wars debate.....

We went thru Alcatraz last Sunday and I came across 2 bolts on canyon right a little ways before the last rappel/handline/actually a downclimb(which is bolted on canyon left) which is immediately before the crux. I assumed the bolts were there to aid in the rescue also, but going back in the thread, the guy who got stuck was actually able to get unstuck on his own and exit the canyon.

The 2 bolts on canyon right are above a fairly easy 4-5' downclimb/squeeze and are in a horrible position to anchor that downclimb anyways. While in the canyon, I assumed the bolts were placed to help extricate the stuck canyoneer, but now, I have absolutely no idea why they are placed where they are. There was no webbing or quicklinks on the bolts either.

[deagol]

I started this bolt wars debate.....

We went thru Alcatraz last Sunday and I came across 2 bolts on canyon right a little ways before the last rappel/handline/actually a downclimb(which is bolted on canyon left) which is immediately before the crux. I assumed the bolts were there to aid in the rescue also, but going back in the thread, the guy who got stuck was actually able to get unstuck on his own and exit the canyon.

The 2 bolts on canyon right are above a fairly easy 4-5' downclimb/squeeze and are in a horrible position to anchor that downclimb anyways. While in the canyon, I assumed the bolts were placed to help extricate the stuck canyoneer, but now, I have absolutely no idea why they are placed where they are. There was no webbing or quicklinks on the bolts either.

That's bizarre. I went through Dang Canyon last March and there were some bolts there ontop of a boulder that you could walk around (going from memory here). I also have no idea why those bolts were placed.

[Bshelton]

I for one appreciate both sides of the discussion. But in reading the discussion, it begs the question; if one is so unskilled or incompetent that they cannot complete simple problems, where to they get the expertise to place safe bolts?

I am assuming that these folks are not only over bolting when unnecessary but the bolts they are placing are unlikely even safe to use.

Just a thought to keep in mind when running a rope through a bolt that seems to good to be true. I guess on the other hand if one does fail, it's likely the problem was simple in the first place so the consequences may be minor.

[ratagonia]

I for one appreciate both sides of the discussion. But in reading the discussion, it begs the question; if one is so unskilled or incompetent that they cannot complete simple problems, where to they get the expertise to place safe bolts?

I am assuming that these folks are not only over bolting when unnecessary but the bolts they are placing are unlikely even safe to use.

Just a thought to keep in mind when running a rope through a bolt that seems to good to be true. I guess on the other hand if one does fail, it's likely the problem was simple in the first place so the consequences may be minor.

There are people who do canyons that are competent at using tools, and do not share a no-bolt ethic. I did this originally, thinking I was 'improving' the canyons. I repented.

My guesses when I find new bolts in well-used canyons are:
- good intentions
- not connected to (what we consider to be) the canyoneering community

I suggest that in general, this is a good way to view bolts when they show up. People have the RIGHT to place bolts. Rather than getting mad at people for placing bolts in previously-descended canyons, we should be sad, and seek to enroll the perps in choosing a no-bolt ethic.

There are exceptions - Nameless Cowards who object to the no-bolt ethic and place bolts in canyons even where not necessary, but fail to step forward and allow themselves to be held accountable. Some associated with Mr. K.

They TOO have the RIGHT to place bolts, and showing anger or arguing with these people rarely does any good. SafeWord: "Isreal". I suggest that the proper response to these bolts is to remove them and clean up as well as possible, erasing the event. And building good anchors. And removing other trash out of the canyons too. Persistence in removing superfluous bolts will win the day.

Others WILL disagree, so let me say this:

- if you have the right to place bolts, I have the right to remove them. Bolts do not become sacred objects at the moment of placement.
- I am not threatening your life by removing bolts you have placed - you are threatening your life and the life of your companions by not having alternative "natural" anchoring methods (and supplies) in your tool kit.
- if you place bolts, do not count on them being there next time you come back.
- In general, I publish on Bogley and CC when I remove (or place) bolts, so I can be held accountable in the public square. (Others may make other choices).

Tom :moses:

[Scott P]

There are exceptions - Nameless Cowards who object to the no-bolt ethic and place bolts in canyons even where not necessary, but fail to step forward and allow themselves to be held accountable. Some associated with Mr. K.

They TOO have the RIGHT to place bolts, and showing anger or arguing with these people rarely does any good. SafeWord: "Isreal".

I was on the the same page as Tom until the above, but I'm perplexed as to what is meant by the above.

Who are nameless cowards associated with Mike K? Actually, anyone who goes with MK is not nameless and for better or worse, their name always shows up in the books.

Who is being referred to (in general; don't have to mention names)? If it's just to nameless bolt placers do you know who they are? Or how do you know they are associated with MK?

Are you referring to people such as Eberhart (spelling?) that used to fly to the Navajo Nation canyons and way over bolt them?

And what does Israel have to do with anything? Perhaps this is an idiom I'm not familiar with?

Just curious as to what all the above means. I think you lost me on this one. :ne_nau:

[hesse15]

I was on the the same page as Tom until the above, but I'm perplexed as to what is meant by the
above.
Who are nameless cowards associated with Mike K? Actually, anyone who goes with MK is not nameless and for better or worse, their name always shows up in the books.
Who is being referred to (in general; don't have to mention names)? If it's just to nameless bolt placers do you know who they are? Or how do you know they are associated with MK?
Are you referring to people such as Eberhart (spelling?) that used to fly to the Navajo Nation canyons and way over bolt them?

usually MRK always put the names of people with him and is a long time that does not place bolts,and definitely i do not think he has anything to do with those those placed in alcatraz


and what does Israel have to do with anything? Perhaps this is an idiom I'm not familiar with?
Just curious as to what all the above means. I think you lost me on this one. :ne_nau:
this is a personal issue between MRK and Tom, nothing that is related to canyons!

btw; will be nice if a bolt is in the book to be left alone and maintained ,mostly when is a historic canyon like costrichnine!!
from a biology/environmental protection stand point: webbing and grooves are worse than a piece of tiny metal on the side of the wall!!

and not everybody that do canyons are always on forum to check the latest changes in anchoring!
but as you know we EUROS likes bolts is in our DNA!!!!:popcorn:

[ratagonia]

Who are nameless cowards associated with Mike K? Actually, anyone who goes with MK is not nameless and for better or worse, their name always shows up in the books.

Who is being referred to (in general; don't have to mention names)? If it's just to nameless bolt placers do you know who they are? Or how do you know they are associated with MK?


2nd Edition Slot canyon guide, page 92: Steve Tyler rapping in Mindbender, with bolt dust still on the bolts. The bolts were well-placed and one was European-type (Metric); both qualities indicate that they were not placed by Steve Tyler or MK, but by someone else. It is possible they were placed by a previous party, however, the fresh dust suggests otherwise.

They WERE placed in a location that would require long pieces of webbing, and still would produce substantial rope grooves.

http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/0811mind/index2.htm



And what does Israel have to do with anything? Perhaps this is an idiom I'm not familiar with?


On my trip with Michael to Quandary Direct and to Seger's Window Canyon, I found that "discussing" any issue in relation to bolting or G-Picking was not useful. He SAID he only uses the G-Pick on explorations, but then insisted on using it at the slide-down in Quandary. Hmm, seems like that was not a first descent. As soon as any statement critical of his position was made, he said "Oh, you're one of those..." and went off on a diatribe about how stupid everyone was for not adopting the G-Pick. I found it was easy to distract him from this diatribe by saying "Israel" - which would then result in a very long diatribe about our 51st state...

YMMV

Tom :moses:

[Scott P]

2nd Edition Slot canyon guide, page 92: Steve Tyler rapping in Mindbender, with bolt dust still on the bolts. The bolts were well-placed and were European-type (Metric); both indicate that they were not placed by Steve Tyler or MK, but by someone else. It is possible they were placed by a previous party, however, the fresh dust suggests otherwise.

Mike told me himself that he placed those bolts.

I let him know that they were being pulled (as far as I recall, it was without telling him who pulled them) and that he should correct the guidebook accordingly. He told me that the bolts were pretty new and that he just installed them (with the obligatory small rant about pulling bolts, et al). .

I don't think he was lying about placing the bolts. It doesn't make sense what the motivation would be. MK is quite straightforward in his book about who he was with on his trips.

Are you saying that there was either someone else in their group who placed the bolts or that he had someone go down and place the bolts for him just prior to doing the canyon so MK could do the canyon right after?

What would be the motivation for him telling me that he himself placed the bolts when I informed him that they were pulled? It seems that if there was motivation to lie, it would be in the other direction and he would claim that he didn't place them, but that they were already there.

As far as the bolts being metric, Eberhard, a European, has probably placed more bolts with Kelsey than anyone and they are metric. Isn't it plausible, if not even probable that the metric bolts would be left over from Eberhard? I believe he did give a bunch of stuff to Kelsey when he (Eberhard) stopped canyoneering.

To me it seems more probable than a phantom canyoneer hanging around with Kelsey placing bolts either for him or just before he went down. :ne_nau:

To asked your own questions that you asked earlier:

[I]Based on what?

Prejudice/stereotyping?

Do you have any evidence, or is this just the fruit of a conjecturing mind?

Or perhaps maybe there really is something you have heard or know that the events really either have or had take place? :ne_nau: I'm not trying to bash you, but just confused as to how you came to the conclusions or if you really do know more than is present on this thread.

(Or if this isn't something you would want to reveal in public, feel free to PM or email me).

[ratagonia]

Mike told me himself that he placed those bolts.


It may surprise you to learn that I am not privy to all your conversations with Mr. K. Having a conversation with YOU is not the same as owning up to placing them on an active public forum, or in his book. So, you have named the Nameless Coward in this specific case, it is Mr. K.


I let him know that they were being pulled (as far as I recall, it was without telling him who pulled them) and that he should correct the guidebook accordingly. He told me that the bolts were pretty new and that he just installed them (with the obligatory small rant about pulling bolts, et al). .


I enjoyed his rant, and found it quite mature. It is very good to warn people that bolts in pictures may not be there for the next descent, and I consider this a significant step forward for Mr. K.


I don't think he was lying about placing the bolts. It doesn't make sense what the motivation would be. MK is quite straightforward in his book about who he was with on his trips.

Are you saying that there was either someone else in their group who placed the bolts or that he had someone go down and place the bolts for him just prior to doing the canyon so MK could do the canyon right after?

What would be the motivation for him telling me that he himself placed the bolts when I informed him that they were pulled? It seems that if there was motivation to lie, it would be in the other direction and he would claim that he didn't place them, but that they were already there.

I believe these statements are irrelevant now that we have clarified that Mr. K has talked to you, and YOU are not a public forum.



As far as the bolts being metric, Eberhard, a European, has probably placed more bolts with Kelsey than anyone and they are metric. Isn't it plausible, if not even probable that the metric bolts would be left over from Eberhard? I believe he did give a bunch of stuff to Kelsey when he (Eberhard) stopped canyoneering.

That makes sense, as one bolt was an American, and the other was a metric. An odd combination. In the past, the bolts Mr. K has placed have been particularly poor; it seems like his skill level in this task has improved.



To me it seems more probable than a phantom canyoneer hanging around with Kelsey placing bolts either for him or just before he went down. :ne_nau:


Thank you for clarifying the situation. We have identified that the phantom canyoneer is Mr. K himself.



To asked your own questions that you asked earlier:

[I]Based on what?

Prejudice/stereotyping?

Do you have any evidence, or is this just the fruit of a conjecturing mind?

Or perhaps maybe there really is something you have heard or know that the events really either have or had take place? :ne_nau: I'm not trying to bash you, but just confused as to how you came to the conclusions or if you really do know more than is present on this thread.

(Or if this isn't something you would want to reveal in public, feel free to PM or email me).


Yes, I have presented the evidence:
1. Pictures of Mr. K / Steve Tyler rapping off of freshly placed bolts. Page 92.
2. A past history by Mr. K of placing bolts especially poorly;
3. Well-placed bolts at this drop.
4. An odd selection of bolts at this drop.

All this is public information, though #2. is my opinion that may not have been expressed explicitly on a public forum.

From this, I offered the hypothesis that someone (the phantom bolter) with Mr. K placed these bolts and did not own up to it in a public forum. You have clarified that the phantom bolter is Mr. K, who did not own up to it in a public forum. I realize that Mr. K is not an active member of the on-line canyoneering community, but I am surprised that Mr. K did not claim paternity for the bolts in question, because I would expect him to. He publishes a public forum, his guidebooks, which is his main mode of contact with the canyoneering community.

We now have your information that Mr. K placed these bolts, and that he has improved his bolting skills substantially. I have mixed feelings about this.

We have also clarified that I do NOT know everything you know. Perhaps you can see that when you have additional information that is not public, that this can inform the conversation. I believe the hypothesis I reached was reasonable, given the available information.

------

I object to your tone, Scott. When you have additional information, please put that information forward and clarify the situation. In this case, you quasi-bashed me for presenting a hypothesis based on the available public information, which was unnecessary and oddly hostile, my friend.

Tom :moses:

[Bootboy]

So in light of the direction this thread has gone...

Is there, or should there be any culpability associated with the removal of bolts? I.e.: leads to an accident because unprepared groups get into trouble because of the expectation of bolts?

[Slot Machine]

So in light of the direction this thread has gone...

Is there, or should there be any culpability associated with the removal of bolts? I.e.: leads to an accident because unprepared groups get into trouble because of the expectation of bolts?

Oh, I wanna play.

A good question with answers that will contain many shades of gray. On the 'white' end are canyons like Constrychnine; where a bolt once existed, but the drop is simple to rig from a nearby tree. Groove free I might add, no disrespect to my friend Cristina.

On the 'black' end would be a canyon like The Squeeze or Pine Creek; where removing bolts would be reckless and endanger lives because the drops are difficult to anchor naturally, the bolts are well known, blah blah blah. Imagine Tom testifying against you in a court of law for removing bolts. Those canyons.

I have not done Alcatraz, but suspect it is in the middle. Perhaps categorized with the last drop in Not Mindbender? Or perhaps more towards 'white'?

I assume Mr K is pretty skilled... so what is special about that drop that would motivate him to place bolts there? Does anyone have a photo of the drop in question? I'd like to get educated. Perhaps I can just go pull them since Alcatraz is at the top of my to do list.

I just have to wait for my canyoneering tuxedo to come back from the dry cleaners... :haha:

[Scott P]

When you have additional information, please put that information forward and clarify the situation.

I did present that information, but only after I found out what the heck you were talking about or referring to. Before your latest post, I don't know if anyone else did either, but assumed some “may be in the know”.

In the past, I did post the information of the bolts being placed by Kelsey in the canyons group (unfortunately the new yahoo makes it harder to search for messages, but I bet you can find them if you look), but I don't expect that every post post would be remembered either. That was something like 5 years ago?

To tell you the truth, I actually know relatively little about what goes on in the canyoneering community nowadays, partially because most of my emphasis has been canyoneering with the kids and doing other stuff with them instead of being out there finding new canyons, gatherings, and the like.

In fact, three weeks ago was actually the first time I have seen Kelsey in over seven years, though I do try to send periodic updates to him concerning his books.

My post was made out of a state of confusion rather than to attack. As far as tone goes, if we were conversing in person you could see that my tone was not attacking, angry, or hostile, but the post was inquisitive, about being confused, and curious (and phrased as questions). Although I was (only a very little) afraid it might be taken the wrong way, I tried to point out that it wasn't meant to be hostile and curiosity was greater than any worry.

The original post sounded to be presented as a fact rather than just a hypothesis. The hypothesis is reasonable, but I didn't know that it was only a hypothesis. It was assumed by me that you heard something differently or knew something more.


my friend

Yes, that is true. I have been asked if I am friends with Tom Jones before and I say yes and say that I've done a few canyons with you.

Same with Mike Kelsey, Shane Burrows, Ram, Todd Martin, etc. Even though I may not agree with you or Kelsey on some things, and may not know you guys all that well, you're both still my friends, so it seems natural that I'd be curious about the comment made implying a nameless canyoneer associated with Kelsey. It is also plausible that how I took your post was not really what you meant.

================================================== =============================================


I assume Mr K is pretty skilled... so what is special about that drop that would motivate him to place bolts there?

The bolts I know of in there (as of Oct 2012) were either placed a long time ago or fairly new at the first pothole. The one placed a long time ago isn't at a difficult place, but in an area of the canyon that seems easy. I've guessed that the canyon has changed since the bolt was placed and that it used to be harder.

I can't tell by reading this thread if this is the same place being referred to.

The pin at the semi keeper is new.


Perhaps I can just go pull them since Alcatraz is at the top of my to do list.

Like placing them, to pull bolts, you have to know what you are doing to do a good job (I don't know if you do or not). Otherwise you can make a mess. If you haven't pulled them, it would be better to take someone who knew how to do a good of doing so. As said, I don't know if you know how to pull them or not; you may indeed know how, but am just mentioning this in case you don't.

[MrAdam]

I have not done Alcatraz, but suspect it is in the middle. Perhaps categorized with the last drop in Not Mindbender? Or perhaps more towards 'white'?

I assume Mr K is pretty skilled... so what is special about that drop that would motivate him to place bolts there? Does anyone have a photo of the drop in question? I'd like to get educated. Perhaps I can just go pull them since Alcatraz is at the top of my to do list.

I just have to wait for my canyoneering tuxedo to come back from the dry cleaners... :haha:

We did not have to use any of the bolts in Alcatraz. I feel they are definitley more on the 'white' side of your comparison. The two bolts that I saw on canyon right, had no webbing on them and no vaild use that I could figure out.

The single bolt on canyon left just before the crux had a handline tied on to it, which we removed, but it is above a somewhat difficult downclimb, so I think that falls into the grey area........

Alcatraz is a great canyon, I liked it even more than Not Mindbender!

[ratagonia]

The single bolt on canyon left just before the crux had a handline tied on to it, which we removed, but it is above a somewhat difficult downclimb, so I think that falls into the grey area........


The downclimb in question is easy as a meat-anchor / last person well-spotted (capture/catch/thigh-belay/circle-of-love). It is not obvious from above that this is the case, especially if there is water of unknown depth at the bottom of it. All of which means it requires some degree of canyoneer-savvy to do without using the bolt. On my trips through Alcatraz, I think we use the bolt about half the time.

A good downclimber can just downclimb it - unless there is water of unknown depth at the bottom.

So, no, it is not so grey, more white.

Scott: there are no (reported) bolts at the semi-keeper + rappel near the start of the canyon. I took out a pin that was there this spring.

Tom

[hesse15]

Oh, I wanna play.
A good question with answers that will contain many shades of gray. On the 'white' end are canyons like Constrychnine; where a bolt once existed, but the drop is simple to rig from a nearby tree. Groove free I might add, no disrespect to my friend Cristina.
:2thumbs:no worries!!!! i just really like shiny metals!!!!!:cool2:

On the 'black' end would be a canyon like The Squeeze or Pine Creek; where removing bolts would be reckless and endanger lives because the drops are difficult to anchor naturally, the bolts are well known, blah blah blah. Imagine Tom testifying against you in a court of law for removing bolts. Those canyons.[/QUOTE=Slot Machine;546464]I just have to wait for my canyoneering tuxedo to come back from the dry cleaners... :haha:
in costricnine the first descenders way before Shane and Hank placed a piton and somebody added a bolt, an unknown that was not Tom (he always take responsibility and warn about before he does) removed and i do not remember the tree but when recently i did a group after us got a big tumble because the rubbed webbing broke!
Squeeze will be so very nice to have Tom (hint:naughty: hint:naughty: ) set those single old bolts in nice doubles with rings ,so no webbing needed!!!!

I have not done Alcatraz, but suspect it is in the middle. Perhaps categorized with the last drop in Not Mindbender? Or perhaps more towards 'white'?
I assume Mr K is pretty skilled... so what is special about that drop that would motivate him to place bolts there? Does anyone have a photo of the drop in question? I'd like to get educated. Perhaps I can just go pull them since Alcatraz is at the top of my to do list.

I do not think Kelsey has anything to do with Alcatraz, he has already color pictures of it so usually he does not do canyons unless he needs pictures!!!! and he will not waste 10$ in bolts like that!! and yes it is a beautiful canyon but i prefer in late spring and summer with no mud!!!!:popcorn:

[ratagonia]

So in light of the direction this thread has gone...

Is there, or should there be any culpability associated with the removal of bolts? I.e.: leads to an accident because unprepared groups get into trouble because of the expectation of bolts?

You plan on suing God? God removes a lot of anchors.

T

[ratagonia]

In Constrictnine the first descenders way before Shane and Hank placed a piton and somebody added a bolt, an unknown that was not Tom (he always take responsibility and warn about before he does) removed and i do not remember the tree but when recently i did a group after us got a big tumble because the rubbed webbing broke!


We do not know who first descended Constrichnine and whether they placed the drilled angle piton or not. Or when.

I added a bolt after some thought and discussion, then agreed that it was a poor choice and really both the suspect angle and the bolt should be removed. An unknown person removed both.

I rarely warn before I remove bolts. Whenever anyone says they placed a new bolt, I usually pipe in that they should consider it gone. But I do not schedule a trip to do so and then announce it - I am a Target Of Opportunity type guy.

Tom :moses:

[hesse15]

We do not know who first descended Constrichnine and whether they placed the drilled angle piton or not. Or when. correction:when Hank and Shane did there was a piton placed before them

I added a bolt after some thought and discussion, then agreed that it was a poor choice and really both the suspect angle and the bolt should be removed. An unknown person removed both. and never said who it was


I rarely warn before I remove bolts. Whenever anyone says they placed a new bolt, I usually pipe in that they should consider it gone. But I do not schedule a trip to do so and then announce it - I am a Target Of Opportunity type guy.

Tom :moses: sent pm

[deagol]

...
.......Does anyone have a photo of the drop in question? ........

I am thinking these bolts might be the ones people are talking about, but not sure ?? They were the only bolts I saw in Alcatraz last October. They were on the left side LDC of pothole followed by a "wall"

here is what it looked like last fall
70185

And, no, we didn't set that anchor. It looks like a webbing mess. Obviously, it could be different now.
This was an image grab from a video. I notice all the rope grooves that indicate the rap ring wasn't always extended the way it is in this photo. Also, the black webbing sort of makes this look like an American Death Triangle..

Edit: I re-watched the video and I am not sure if this is the right place. It is in Alcatraz just about a 25-30 foot drop that I don't think I would wanna downclimb.

The rap started from a pothole with a lip that lead to the drop and ended in another pothole that was exited by a crack on the right side LDC.

[ratagonia]

I am thinking these bolts might be the ones people are talking about, but not sure ?? They were the only bolts I saw in Alcatraz last October. They were about a pothole

here is what it looked like last fall
70185

And, no, we didn't set that anchor. It looks like a webbing mess. Obviously, it could be different now.
This was an image grab from a video. I notice all the rope grooves that indicate the rap ring wasn't always extended the way it is in this photo. Also, the black webbing sort of makes this look like an American Death Triangle..

Edit: I re-watched the video and I am not sure if this is the right place. It is in Alcatraz just about a 25-30 foot drop that I don't think I would wanna downclimb.

Is this at the pothole, near the top of the canyon? V slot into a 10' Diameter pothole, then a 30' drop (rappel) on the other side?

Used to be anchored by a rock in the V slot.

Inquiring minds want to know!!

I ask because it looks like the rope grooves from the anchor back in the V-slot.

Tom

p.s. - nice looking rope!

[Scott P]

Scott: there are no (reported) bolts at the semi-keeper + rappel near the start of the canyon. I took out a pin that was there this spring.

You are correct; it was actually a pin, rather than a bolt.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't recall the anchor in the photo above last fall. For sure it isn't the one I was referring to.

[Bootboy]

You plan on suing God? God removes a lot of anchors.

T

Good point. I guess as long as I don't tell...

[Byron]

Well, since there are some pictures going up, and Mike Kelsey (who I admire greatly) is being once again shredded by Tom...I figure I'll chime in.

I spent a lot of time with Mike, doing a lot of canyons. We spent days together, talking about everything under the sun. Yes, I've heard his opinions about Israel, but who really cares? Lots of folks have whacky opinions on things...so what. Are you Jewish, Tom? Because it seems like you really take it personally.

Anyway, Mike and I hit some very remote canyons around the lake that we had very little beta on. He brought a bolt kit. He told me that he'll only use it when absolutely nothing else will work...because it's such a time consuming pain in the ass...and you know how cheap he is. We used every thing to rig up a rope that we could find, and built several deadmans. So you're notion of him being some kind of bolt freak is flat out wrong.

And yes, he talked about people "like you" being "one of them". Or should I say, "The One"...the high and mighty sage of wisdom and ethics deciding what bolts or good or bad. The problem is that someone may come to a drop, expecting a bolt to be there because someone they know said so, only to discover that Mr. Righteous removed it very recently. Perhaps they don't have a sandtrap, or enough webbing for that rock 20 feet away...they're screwed. And yes Tom, people do, and will continue to go into canyons unprepared...despite your snarky preaching.

Photos below of myself with Mr. "Bolt the hell out of it" Kelsey going through unexplored canyons...someone, Tom, who I would much rather spend a day with listing to his rants on Israel and the stock market versus you're high minded self righteousness.:fitz:

[hesse15]

Good point. I guess as long as I don't tell...

God remove dead man not drilled bolts!

and if you are one of those cowards off course you will not tell

but if you are a MAN you are suppose to tell and take responsability of your actions having consequences on the lives of people!!!!

[spinesnaper]

:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:

[hank moon]

On the 'white' end are canyons like Constrychnine; where a bolt once existed, but the drop is simple to rig from a nearby tree. Groove free I might add, no disrespect to my friend Cristina.

<smudging the white>

a) slings kill trees (eventually)
b) a groove-free opportunity may be offered, but not accepted

:bandit:

[Bootboy]

God remove dead man not drilled bolts!

and if you are one of those cowards off course you will not tell

but if you are a MAN you are suppose to tell and take responsability of your actions having consequences on the lives of people!!!!

Nice to see you again.

I've seen hangers ripped right out of walls by flood debris in several canyons. In all instances where I've seen this, there have been two hangers, with one surviving the flood. But what happens when you come upon that single bolt anchor that's been blown out by a monsoon flood? I can think of several canyons off the top of my head with single bolt anchors right in the water course. Not at all an unreasonable possibility.

I'm not sure how removing bolts makes me a coward... Maybe you should just go prepared and be ready for whatever lies ahead. I thought you were an expert...

[MrAdam]

I am thinking these bolts might be the ones people are talking about, but not sure ?? They were the only bolts I saw in Alcatraz last October. They were on the left side LDC of pothole followed by a "wall"

here is what it looked like last fall
70185

And, no, we didn't set that anchor. It looks like a webbing mess. Obviously, it could be different now.
This was an image grab from a video. I notice all the rope grooves that indicate the rap ring wasn't always extended the way it is in this photo. Also, the black webbing sort of makes this look like an American Death Triangle..

Edit: I re-watched the video and I am not sure if this is the right place. It is in Alcatraz just about a 25-30 foot drop that I don't think I would wanna downclimb.

The rap started from a pothole with a lip that lead to the drop and ended in another pothole that was exited by a crack on the right side LDC.

Nope, these are not the bolts I was speaking of. I believe Tom is correct and this is the semi-keeper pothole rap. If so, the existing anchor was rock wedged in the V slot up canyon. I did not see these bolts when we went thru.

All of the other bolts mentioned were further down canyon in the darker narrows.

[hesse15]

Nice to see you again.
I've seen hangers ripped right out of walls by flood debris in several canyons. In all instances where I've seen this, there have been two hangers, with one surviving the flood. But what happens when you come upon that single bolt anchor that's been blown out by a monsoon flood? I can think of several canyons off the top of my head with single bolt anchors right in the water course. Not at all an unreasonable possibility. . sometime happened when bolts are not placed correctly, Tom fixed that in some canyons in Zion if I recall.bolt are suppose to be placed high enough out of the water course allowing not been flooded and no rope groves! If you find a questionable bolt is good pratcice if you know how to to replace or let know the community so somebody (Tom) could make it safer.



I'm not sure how removing bolts makes me a coward... Maybe you should just go prepared and be ready for whatever lies ahead. I thought you were an expert...
doing anonymously like the guy in costrichnine: if you remove just have the courage to tell you do and where.....
i see a little provocation here.....:I am not an "expert" but i can stem in bikini with a big smile for long time until the perfect light for picture is found.....:naughty:

probably Byron and ScottP knows to what i am referring to (disclosure:they do not wear bikinis when they do)!!!!!!

you know canyoneering is like going to the :kickit:beach,

just another place to wear your bikini!! :cool2:



:bootyshake: :fitz: :roflol: :bandit:

[Slot Machine]

a) slings kill trees (eventually)

I've never seen a sling kill a tree. Could you site an example?

We did not girth hitch the tree in C9, so it is not being strangled. The webbing extended from the tree lays across the top of the cliff in at that drop, absorbing most of the weight. It would take many hundreds of canyoneers rapping from the tree to even mar the bark on the back of that tree. I'm not an arborist, but I don't see how canyoneers could even come close to killing that tree.

But you are right about your second point. I bet our tree anchor is gone and someone is leaving a groove as we speak. :cry1: :haha:



Like placing them, to pull bolts, you have to know what you are doing to do a good job (I don't know if you do or not). Otherwise you can make a mess. If you haven't pulled them, it would be better to take someone who knew how to do a good of doing so. As said, I don't know if you know how to pull them or not; you may indeed know how, but am just mentioning this in case you don't.


Good point. I do not know how, but will do my homework before taking on the task. I'm pretty sure I can mix epoxy with sand without getting it everywhere. http://www.bogley.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_mrgreen.gif

[Bootboy]

sometime happened when bolts are not placed correctly, Tom fixed that in some canyons in Zion if I recall.bolt are suppose to be placed high enough out of the water course allowing not been flooded and no rope groves! If you find a questionable bolt is good pratcice if you know how to to replace or let know the community so somebody (Tom) could make it safer.

doing anonymously like the guy in costrichnine: if you remove just have the courage to tell you do and where.....
i see a little provocation here.....:I am not an "expert" but i can stem in bikini with a big smile for long time until the perfect light for picture is found.....:naughty:

probably Byron and ScottP knows to what i am referring to (disclosure:they do not wear bikinis when they do)!!!!!!

you know canyoneering is like going to the :kickit:beach,

just another place to wear your bikini!! :cool2:



:bootyshake: :fitz: :roflol: :bandit:



The fact is that canyons are voids where there USED to be rock. They are dynamic. They get deeper and wider with time. Rock can be here today, gone tomorrow. Now, I realize that this happens almost imperceptibly slowly, but it does happen. There's a pothole in Kolob creek that blew out between last year and this year. Just a small hole, but 2 potholes are now joined by a small hole about 8"x10". Proof that these things do happen.

In some canyons, it's impossible to get bolts out of the water course. Many canyons can and do flash well over the height of a person, several times every year.

If I want to go to the beach, I do so. If I want to go explore a canyon, I go to a canyon, not beach.

[ratagonia]

I've never seen a sling kill a tree. Could you site an example?



Ah, grasshopper. So young, so little longevity in the sport.

Rock Climbers at popular crags noticed quite some time ago that they were killing all the trees at the top, and it became standard protocol to install bolts for topropes and for rappels, rather than kill off the remaining trees.

In Zion, where the high-traffic canyons are, there are many examples of trees that were stressed, that are no longer used. Behunin, Spry, Engelstead, Keyhole, Birch Hollow immediately come to mind. Just the foot-traffic at the base of the trees tends to erode the soil, compress the soil, and destroy the roots. However, in Zion, we place bolts to keep from killing the trees; which I do not consider an option elsewhere.

Tom

[hank moon]

I've never seen a sling kill a tree. Could you site an example?

I've seen it happen at popular climbing areas (Gunks in NY, Sunset Rock in TN). There is a large tree in Water Canyon that until 2011 was used as an anchor. Bolts were placed that year to direct traffic away from the tree, which was on the road to oblivion. How long a tree takes to die depends on many factors. One of them is traffic around the tree, feet trampling roots, removing soil around roots, etc. This factor is especially important with trees that are not deeply rooted (relatively shallow soil over bedrock), which is the case at Sunset and the Gunks. I'm not familiar with the current situation in C9 as I haven't been there in years. In any case, tree death via slings is not only influenced by how the tree is slung (strangling, bark removal, etc.) but also from the traffic directed to the tree by its use as an anchorage.

[ratagonia]

Good point. I do not know how, but will do my homework before taking on the task. I'm pretty sure I can mix epoxy with sand without getting it everywhere. :mrgreen:

I never found the sand-mixed-with-epoxy to work at all. Fill with epoxy, smooth with a wet rock, gently press sand into the surface.

Lasts long enough. Some in Englestead I took out are still not findable even by me 10 years later.

Tom

[deagol]

Is this at the pothole, near the top of the canyon? V slot into a 10' Diameter pothole, then a 30' drop (rappel) on the other side?

Used to be anchored by a rock in the V slot.

Inquiring minds want to know!!

I ask because it looks like the rope grooves from the anchor back in the V-slot.

Tom

p.s. - nice looking rope!

Tom,

Yes, that sounds accurate. and Yes, it's an Imlay rope :nod:




Ah, grasshopper. So young, so little longevity in the sport.

Rock Climbers at popular crags noticed quite some time ago that they were killing all the trees at the top, and it became standard protocol to install bolts for topropes and for rappels, rather than kill off the remaining trees.

In Zion, where the high-traffic canyons are, there are many examples of trees that were stressed, that are no longer used. Behunin, Spry, Engelstead, Keyhole, Birch Hollow immediately come to mind. Just the foot-traffic at the base of the trees tends to erode the soil, compress the soil, and destroy the roots. However, in Zion, we place bolts to keep from killing the trees; which I do not consider an option elsewhere.

Tom

That is interesting, and sad...

[deagol]

Nope, these are not the bolts I was speaking of. I believe Tom is correct and this is the semi-keeper pothole rap. If so, the existing anchor was rock wedged in the V slot up canyon. I did not see these bolts when we went thru.

All of the other bolts mentioned were further down canyon in the darker narrows.

Wow, it just shoes how bolts come and then go and than come again. I do not recall seeing additional bolts beyond this point, but things can change, as we are finding out.

[ratagonia]

Wow, it just shoes how bolts come and then go and than come again. I do not recall seeing additional bolts beyond this point, but things can change, as we are finding out.

BUT, once published in a guidebook, they become sacred objects that cannot be removed...


according to some.

Tom

[Brian in SLC]

I've never seen a sling kill a tree. Could you site an example?

Ferne Clyffe and Giant City in Southern Illinois both have large areas closed to climbing from a strong "no bolt" ethic that led folks to use the trees there for anchors. The foot traffic especially is probably what contributed to the trees dying off (shallow roots over the rocks) and the fragile topside ecology of these cliffs, supporting several endangered species, suffered from the damage. Easy to to see if you're ever in that area. On cliffs that have been closed, you'll see the trees and topsoil right to the edge. On open areas, its denuded to bare rock to a distance of 40 feet in some places.

[Byron]

I am not an "expert" but i can stem in bikini with a big smile for long time until the perfect light for picture is found.....:naughty:



Stemming in a bikini? Oh my...I think I may be able to tolerate the noise for an eyeful of that!https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT8XmT_57zh12WEomF8o8cGuHVg-luBY8Gu2cmp4ih9OniPl-KqVw

[Bootboy]

Stemming in a bikini? Oh my...I think I may be able to tolerate the noise for an eyeful of that!https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT8XmT_57zh12WEomF8o8cGuHVg-luBY8Gu2cmp4ih9OniPl-KqVw

Even then...

[jamestkirk]

huh, guess nobody is interested anymore in whether or not the gear is returned. it's been a few weeks now and no request from the descent party. gee, i wonder why.

in response to the bolt debate that is raging on, and on, i retrieved a locker that day which was on the upstream canyon right 'mystery bolt'. i too am perplexed about their purpose. i'd almost go as far as to say that i saw a faint dust trail under the bolts that would indicate they were recently placed. i dislike useless redundant bolts. i'd like to clean them out of there. maybe even the one with a shitty spinner hangar above that drop with easy natural pro options (uh oh, here we go again).

70325

these newfangled lockers are junk! all this twisting and pulling. yea right, real easy to do with one finger, sure, junk! it's kinda like toothbrushes. every company is dying to come up with a useless gimmick to sell more of their product. that one is a leaver biner fer sure!

Kirk Out

[hesse15]

these newfangled lockers are junk! all this twisting and pulling. yea right, real easy to do with one finger, sure, junk! it's kinda like toothbrushes. every company is dying to come up with a useless gimmick to sell more of their product. that one is a leaver biner fer sure!

i do not like autolocker in canyons they jam with sand ,but are nice in multipitch when you belay up somebody from a bad angle!

[ratagonia]

huh, guess nobody is interested anymore in whether or not the gear is returned. it's been a few weeks now and no request from the descent party. gee, i wonder why.

in response to the bolt debate that is raging on, and on, i retrieved a locker that day which was on the upstream canyon right 'mystery bolt'. i too am perplexed about their purpose. i'd almost go as far as to say that i saw a faint dust trail under the bolts that would indicate they were recently placed. i dislike useless redundant bolts. i'd like to clean them out of there. maybe even the one with a shitty spinner hangar above that drop with easy natural pro options (uh oh, here we go again).



these newfangled lockers are junk! all this twisting and pulling. yea right, real easy to do with one finger, sure, junk! it's kinda like toothbrushes. every company is dying to come up with a useless gimmick to sell more of their product. that one is a leaver biner fer sure!

Kirk Out



I think it is appropriate to leave the old old old bolts, if "safe" as they are signs of the passage of the ancients. Problem is, a lot of them are not particularly safe. That one might pull out easily with a little Cats Paw. :haha:

Newfangled? Seems like the first twistlocs were about 1987. Some of our readers were not even born then. They work great for climbing. Don't work for canyoneering. One way you can tell climbers when you meet them in a canyon. :facepalm1:

T

[Slot Machine]

I think it is appropriate to leave the old old old bolts, if "safe" as they are signs of the passage of the ancients. T

Seems like an odd statement. I'm fascinated by the nuances in the Jones' Handbook of Bolt Pulling Ethics.

Neither quality nor antiquity seem like reasons to leave them. Being necessary seems like the only legit reason.

Could you please elaborate?

[ratagonia]

Seems like an odd statement. I'm fascinated by the nuances in the Jones' Handbook of Bolt Pulling Ethics.

Neither quality nor antiquity seem like reasons to leave them. Being necessary seems like the only legit reason.

Could you please elaborate?

Old bolts tell a story, a story that is lost when they are pulled.

The dividing line is about 1995, a bit before I started canyoneering. Anything placed before I saw the canyon was probably legit - anything after (except if placed by me, sometimes) is probably illegit.

(You're not expecting logic and consistency from me, are you? :facepalm1:)

This particular one in Alcatraz tells the story of an early descender who was brave enough to descend a crazy canyon, but not skilled in the ways of the Canyon Gods, instead choosing to place a bolt on an easily-assisted downclimb. :crazycobasa:

Tom