Blarney and Sandthrax flashflood [Archive]

DougInGJCO

09-16-2013, 02:39 PM

It would be good to know for sure if this is the same group - perhaps some safety outreach could be made...

It is true some of the same people were involved in two of the three events mentioned: an anchor failure in Hogwarts in August 2012, a webbing failure in Constrictnine (rub through by sandstone abrasion) in April 2013 and getting caught in a flash flood this past weekend.

Thankfully I can say that while I was at North Wash and associated with the victims each of these times but I have not been in the same canyon with them at the times of any of these incidents.

Before the world gets quick to pass judgments -
-- in Hogwarts at least 18 people from 3 or more groups had used that same anchor over the previous 3 days with no
incident
-- in Constrictnine the team that experienced the webbing being sawed through by sandstone abrasion made a mistake not
inspecting that webbing. The fellow who fell was the first to admit his mistake.
Numerous other parties had gone down that day and not a one seemed to have questioned the webbing or made it
redundant. Were they 'lucky' so we do not point fingers at the. I did that same canyon 4 weeks earlier and I could have
doubled up that webbing but it did not occur to me to do so at that time (though we did inspect and did not rub-saw
the webbing over rock)
-- this weekend just past there were people headed to at least 6 different canyons Saturday morning. The weather was
fine overhead during the walks in. A massive wind direction change moved rain and hail clouds over the Irish Canyons
from the direction of the Henry Mtns. after some groups had already started in. Other groups (mine included) did longer
approaches so we were not yet in our chosen canyons when that weather change occurred so we were spared being
in a slot with the flash flooding.

As for the video footage of the Sandthrax camp location, the little access road at Leprechaun Canyon has always served as a dam to prevent water flowing between Hwy 95 and the slickrock along the east side of the road, where the Sandthrax camp is located. That road/ dam for some reason was breached by a huge rush of flash flood waters and all the water that the BLM and State DOT had previously routed under the highway through a concrete culvert came rushing downhill parallel to the highway making for not one flooding North Wash Creek but two. It was this 2nd, misplaced, creek that came raging through the camping location.

This weekend - the campers rebuilt an exit road as you see in the video footage to work our own way out from the far side of the washout of the Sandthrax access road. The party in Blarney sustained an ankle and a knee injury and with help from other members of our extended party managed to get themselves safely out of the canyon and ultimately to medical help.

Just a passing point of interest too - the morning after the Constrictnine incident we asked around at the group breakfast gathering if people would contribute $$ toward buying equipment for the two county SAR teams that mobilized for that event. First thought in passing the hat was we might be able to collect $200; then someone said let's shoot for $250. By the time it was counted, $1000 had been collected. I would say these are people who showed they know and appreciate the value of rescue.

Incidentally there were 2 of 6 members in the Blarney Canyon group that have been ACA trained in the past year. Of the leaders in the various parties that day there was well over 35 years of accumulated canyoneering experience

flatiron

09-16-2013, 02:56 PM

Who maintains that road? UDOT? BLM? Or does anyone? Any wild guess on when it might get graded - Sandthrax sure handles a lot of traffic.

Danno

09-16-2013, 03:29 PM

Who maintains that road? UDOT? BLM? Or does anyone? Any wild guess on when it might get graded - Sandthrax sure handles a lot of traffic.

UDOT had a grader and front loader on site within a few hours. They graded it from the highway and all the way around the loop on the north side of the campground. There were still quite a few cars in camp, so they were able to drive out more easily when the grading was completed.

Iceaxe

09-16-2013, 03:38 PM

Who maintains that road? UDOT? BLM? Or does anyone?

I believe UDOT did originally. Before canyoneers discovered North Wash and made the Sandthrax campground home the place was used by UDOT to park heavy construction equipment. Since those days I know the BLM has been watching over our shoulder and monitoring the Sandthrax campground. Officially I believe it is BLM who has jurisdiction.

Iceaxe

09-16-2013, 03:39 PM

UDOT had a grader and front loader on site within a few hours. They graded it from the highway and all the way around the loop on the north side of the campground.

Sweet... :2thumbs:

flatiron

09-16-2013, 03:51 PM

Sweet... :2thumbs:

Double sweet !!! :2thumbs::2thumbs: DOT's do just great work - love those guys.

DougInGJCO

09-16-2013, 03:55 PM

The Sandthrax road has been graded. It is as passable as ever again after the flooding. We sent word of the washout an it was repaired that day.

As of Sunday at 5 PM the short road leading into Lep Canyons, the one that was breached in the flash flood and directed waters toward the campsite had not be repaired. It is a full breach so may be a more significant repair challenge. Until that road is repaired so it again directs Lep Canyon waters toward the concrete culvert under the highway then into North Wash Creek the Sandthrax campsite will still be prone to flooding in any future, sufficiently large flash floods.

Along UT Hwy 95 there are numerous places in the North Wash area, 3 or 4 that I know of between Mile posts 27 and 33, where the south-bound lane of the road is about to be undermined if creek levels rise and erosion on that bank continues.

DougInGJCO

09-16-2013, 04:16 PM

The Sandthrax road has been graded. It is as passable as ever again after the flooding. We sent word of the washout and it was re-graded that day.

The road into Lep Canyons which also serves to dam the Lep Canyon water so it does not flood Sandthrax camp area is completely breached. Until that is fully repaired any time Lep Canyon flash floods Sandthrax camp area may be in jeopardy of flooding again.

Between Mile Posts 27 and 33 there are at least 4 places where, as of Sept. 15th North Wash creek had begun to undermine the south-bound lane of UT Hwy 95. Until those are repaired (pretty big job, Carl the unemployed transportation engineer/ canyoneer?) drive carefully and more towards the center of the road.

ratagonia

09-16-2013, 04:52 PM

Someone sent this video link to me. It's worth a look.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10151848490905100

If I understand things correctly this group suffered injuries in this flash flood. I believe this is also the same group that required SAR eariler in the year in Constrychnine.

I'm still trying to understand all the details.

:popcorn:

and... just barely avoided disaster in Hogwarts earlier, if my source is correct...

:facepalm1:

A repeat offender. Think we could interest the County DA in a Reckless Endangerment charge???

Tom

Scott P

09-16-2013, 05:06 PM

There were flash flood warnings out all over the region last weekend. Without trying to sound judgmental, and we all make mistakes, but I guess I don't understand why people want to do slot canyons with flash flood warnings out. :ne_nau:

Seems to be happening a lot lately.

Canyon Dog

09-16-2013, 05:23 PM

If I understand things correctly this group suffered injuries in this flash flood.
.........
I'm still trying to understand all the details.

To clear things up, here are the deets on the situation and injuries sustained:
The approach hike for Blarney being relatively short put the group in-canyon well ahead of those groups that had headed up to the Leps and over to Trachyotomy. Here is a shot of the sky from the group at Trachyotomy, which is what was seen looking upwind from the top of Blarney as well.
69418
The clouds moved over the Irish canyons after the Blarney group was halfway through. My understanding is that the folks had just started the descent into the Leps when the rain started falling and were able to sit it out well out of the way of the ensuing flood waters. No such luck in Blarney. We were completing the last rappel when the rain started; by the time the last man was on rope, a nice brown waterfall had developed. The first few down had been ushered out of the chamber to head downstream and get up out of the water as soon as they could, while the group leaders braved the rushing water to retrieve the rope (which proved to be invaluable in getting everyone to safety). :scared:
The first 3 in the group found a spot where they were able to stem up and get out of the water. Unfortunately one of them slipped back down (about 10 feet) and twisted her knee, but was able to quickly stem back up and brace herself. The 3 in the rear, now with rope in hand, found an accessible roost just above the spot where they can be seen in the video. Our lead climber scrambled up and was able to see the 3 ahead of us safely stemmed about 50-60 feet downstream. Using a knife, he was able to dig a small hole to create a jug handle to anchor our rope. He ran the rope through the hole and passed it down for the other two below to use as a handline up to the ledge.
At some point as the rain subsided, one of the ladies in the front group attempted to scramble a bit higher to reach a ledge that would allow them to sit, rather than remain stemmed. Unfortunately her foothold was lost and she fell about 15 feet back into the slot, where she fractured (or broke) a bone in her foot upon impact. Miraculously, she was able to get herself back up into her stemming position above the water without any assistance. Sheer willpower & adrenaline drove her to rescue herself in a terrible situation.
Once the flow had receded enough to be considered safe, two of us guys went forward to help the ladies back to the safety of the ledge. That is when we learned of the knee and foot injury. We got them up on the ledge, swapped out some wet clothes and they broke out the space blanket, snacks and water. It was then decided to send two of the team members out to get help since we had two injuries in the group. They returned to the rim above us with a small army of fellow canyoneers quite some time later. An assessment of the situation led to the understanding that setting ropes for ascent would be difficult and time consuming, as well as the fact that the injured ladies would very likely be unable to ascend ropes anyhow. With clouds still in the sky, we knew there was also a strong possibility of another rain storm rolling through. The four of us on the ledge decided that we were going to cowboy up and get the hell out of the canyon under our own power. Two of the guys from the rim began setting up their rap to come down and provide muscle for assisting the injured ladies.
I set up the rope to lower the ladies through a few downclimb sections and by bracing their arms on the walls, they were able to continue through the slot and keep most of their weight off their injured knee and foot. It was not pretty, but they were real troopers and with plenty of encouragement were able to keep moving downstream. Our help from the rim arrived 20 minutes later and provided some relief by carrying packs and offering encouragement. Once the canyon opened up enough that they couldn't reach across with their arms, the new guys came up and provided direct assistance to the injured ladies. Before long, the one with the broken foot had a piggy-back ride that lasted all the way back to the car. :stud::clap:The woman with the injured knee was given walking support by the other guy that had joined us.
We were greeted by a large group of fellow canyoneers back at the trailhead, who provided more dry clothes, snacks, water, hugs, cheers, etc. :feelgood:
Upon return to Sandthrax, we discovered that the flood had wrecked our campsites, buried and swept away gear, including the car keys of one of our crew. Fortunately a concerted effort by all was able to retrieve most everything, including the keys, which were found after a lot of digging through mud and brush. Most everyone packed up their mud-packed stuff, dug out a couple of cars and got the heck out of Dodge.
eclipsee_steering

ratagonia

09-16-2013, 05:33 PM

It is true some of the same people were involved in two of the three events mentioned: an anchor failure in Hogwarts in August 2012, a webbing failure in Constrictnine (rub through by sandstone abrasion) in April 2013 and getting caught in a flash flood this past weekend.

Thankfully I can say that while I was at North Wash and associated with the victims each of these times but I have not been in the same canyon with them at the times of any of these incidents.

Before the world gets quick to pass judgments -
-- in Hogwarts at least 18 people from 3 or more groups had used that same anchor over the previous 3 days with no
incident
-- in Constrictnine the team that experienced the webbing being sawed through by sandstone abrasion made a mistake not
inspecting that webbing. The fellow who fell was the first to admit his mistake.
Numerous other parties had gone down that day and not a one seemed to have questioned the webbing or made it
redundant. Were they 'lucky' so we do not point fingers at the. I did that same canyon 4 weeks earlier and I could have
doubled up that webbing but it did not occur to me to do so at that time (though we did inspect and did not rub-saw
the webbing over rock)
-- this weekend just past there were people headed to at least 6 different canyons Saturday morning. The weather was
fine overhead during the walks in. A massive wind direction change moved rain and hail clouds over the Irish Canyons
from the direction of the Henry Mtns. after some groups had already started in. Other groups (mine included) did longer
approaches so we were not yet in our chosen canyons when that weather change occurred so we were spared being
in a slot with the flash flooding.

As for the video footage of the Sandthrax camp location, the little access road at Leprechaun Canyon has always served as a dam to prevent water flowing between Hwy 95 and the slickrock along the east side of the road, where the Sandthrax camp is located. That road/ dam for some reason was breached by a huge rush of flash flood waters and all the water that the BLM and State DOT had previously routed under the highway through a concrete culvert came rushing downhill parallel to the highway making for not one flooding North Wash Creek but two. It was this 2nd, misplaced, creek that came raging through the camping location.

This weekend - the campers rebuilt an exit road as you see in the video footage to work our own way out from the far side of the washout of the Sandthrax access road. The party in Blarney sustained an ankle and a knee injury and with help from other members of our extended party managed to get themselves safely out of the canyon and ultimately to medical help.

Just a passing point of interest too - the morning after the Constrictnine incident we asked around at the group breakfast gathering if people would contribute $$ toward buying equipment for the two county SAR teams that mobilized for that event. First thought in passing the hat was we might be able to collect $200; then someone said let's shoot for $250. By the time it was counted, $1000 had been collected. I would say these are people who showed they know and appreciate the value of rescue.

Incidentally there were 2 of 6 members in the Blarney Canyon group that have been ACA trained in the past year. Of the leaders in the various parties that day there was well over 35 years of accumulated canyoneering experience

Thanks for the information, Doug, very interesting.

But I am confused. This sounds like a lot of excuse-making and ex post facto justification. One incident - can happen to anyone. Two incidents - uh, maybe exceptionally bad luck. But three incidents has the stink of gross negligence. Why is this person STILL leading beginners into dangerous situations? I think those of you in Grand Junction who have knowledge of the facts and access to the community have a duty to prevent this individual from leading beginners in the future.

"2 of 6 members in the Blarney Canyon group that have been ACA trained in the past year. Of the leaders in the various parties that day there was well over 35 years of accumulated canyoneering experience"

I am a big advocate of training, but training does not take the place of good judgment. I am a big advocate of experience, but quite a few people have done quite a few canyons and have not gained wisdom or what we call 'experience' in the process. The facts speak for themselves.

It is sweet that you guys pulled out some hard-earned cash to turn over to the SAR Team. An excellent gesture. However, getting rescued and paying for it is NOT the same as being competent and not needing rescue.

"-- in Hogwarts at least 18 people from 3 or more groups had used that same anchor over the previous 3 days with no
incident"

"-- in Constrictnine the team that experienced the webbing being sawed through by sandstone abrasion made a mistake not inspecting that webbing. The fellow who fell was the first to admit his mistake. Numerous other parties had gone down that day and not a one seemed to have questioned the webbing or made it redundant. Were they 'lucky' so we do not point fingers at the. I did that same canyon 4 weeks earlier and I could have doubled up that webbing but it did not occur to me to do so at that time (though we did inspect and did not rub-saw the webbing over rock)"

The suggested incompetence of other parties does not justify the incompetence of subsequent parties.

In both Hogwarts and Constrictnine, the parties up front may or may not have inspected the webbing, and the webbing may or may not have been good when they did so. You make a claim as if you watched every person of the previous parties on that rappel, which I find difficult to believe. You do not KNOW who looked at what in there, and your claim is malicious slander. The fact we KNOW is that "the fellow" did not competently inspect and/or use the anchor, and death could have been the result.

Why are these anchors not backed up? Why why why!!! There are a LOT of questions, but the main one is why is this fellow leading beginners out to their doom?

I was under the impression, Doug, that YOU were "this fellow". Please tell me this is not so. I think it would be a good thing to reveal this persons name to the community so we can all run away very fast whenever he shows up.

Tom

ps. and YES, I am a frakkin' a-hole, because I believe people that recklessly endanger other people's lives should be taken behind the dumpster and beaten to a pulp, at least metaphorically. Being a frakkin' a-hole is my job around here, and I take pride in my work.

dougr

09-16-2013, 06:18 PM

ps. and YES, I am a frakkin' a-hole, because I believe people that recklessly endanger other people's lives should be taken behind the dumpster and beaten to a pulp, at least metaphorically. Being a frakkin' a-hole is my job around here, and I take pride in my work.

I gotta agree on this one.

Iceaxe

09-16-2013, 06:37 PM

Yo Canyon Dog.... thanks for providing the details :-)

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

Byron

09-16-2013, 06:38 PM

I'm with Tom...I went through those very same canyons with a woman who had ACA training, or BS training, or XYZ whatever it is, and I wasn't impressed at all. Knowing how to rig a biner block and having some certificate is hardly equitable to experience. After that trip...my first with complete strangers, I realized how the blind leading the blind could be a serious problem. I'd bet that there's all kinds of near death or serious injury happening that we never hear about.

If it is indeed one dude leading these people out there with all this consistent drama, then there is certainly a problem...with him. I've known people that seem to have bad luck follow them around. It's probably a good idea to avoid doing dangerous activities with them.

Also, I think there is absolutely no excuse for someone taking a dive off of worn webbing.

Scott P

09-16-2013, 07:25 PM

deagol

09-16-2013, 08:33 PM

seems like it's getting to be a circus out there.. with meetup groups and all....
Everything can get ruined in time.

peakbaggers

09-16-2013, 09:02 PM

Canyon Dog,

I don't want to judge at all, and I've made many mistakes myself, but I'm curious why the trip was a go with all the flash flood warnings?

I've been itching to get out to the canyons for the last three weekends, but the weather forecast has been very poor. I didn't check the forecast for North Wash, but did for Escalante. It said 100% chance of rain with flash flood warnings.

Just curious for the reasoning. Was the forecast better in North Wash or was it expected that the floods would only happen at a certain time of day, or?

GJ NWS forecast early Friday evening was still calling for 50 - 60% chance of rain in tha area, humidities were still high and water vapor loops showed that the wet system was not clearing out as had been earlier forecasted. We had been planning on heading for the same area, but that forecast changed our plans and the Tuesday report of that same area flashing.
I watched on radar Saturday as the main storm hit by around noon or before. By that time the NWS in GJ had issued a flash flood warning. Of course, there's no way they could have known that with no cell reception in that area.

dougr

09-16-2013, 09:04 PM

Canyon Dog,

I don't want to judge at all, and I've made many mistakes myself, but I'm curious why the trip was a go with all the flash flood warnings?

This was my first thought. WTH are you doing in canyons with such rain around?

Iceaxe

09-16-2013, 09:32 PM

I'm with Tom...I went through those very same canyons with a woman who had ACA training, or BS training, or XYZ whatever it is,

The ACA fills a students toolbox with many fancy tools. My major criticism of the program over the years is the students leave with little understanding of what is the right tool in their toolbox for the job. I often see ACA graduates with dozens of canyons under their belt using the wrong tool to complete a task, sometimes creating a serious safety hazard in the process.

YMMV

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

Spokey

09-16-2013, 09:34 PM

30% chance of rain means 70% chance of SUNSHINE. I was on the trip this weekend. Some people had rain, others did not.

DougInGJCO

09-16-2013, 10:14 PM

Tom as you say you are a FAH but . . . your years of experience and your opinions are valued and at least in my case, respected.

There has not been 'one' person for you to focus your rant on though as there is not a common denominator leader in these canyon incidents. I do not know who was in charge at Hogwarts as I was in a completely different canyon that day probably about 5 miles away. In Hogwarts I had used on Saturday the same anchor that failed on Sunday.
In Constrychnine the person who was the victim was also the most experienced person in that party. Again, Tom, I was not in that canyon so cannot speak to competence there.

In Blarney this past weekend, I was not in that canyon either. I was with a group that had the good fortune to not get to the head of our canyon before the rain began.

tontwins

09-16-2013, 10:20 PM

I was there too looked clear on Saturday we made it Half way through Trachyotomy before storms rolled in...

Tom quit being a *itch u weren't there...Everyone takes responsibility for their own actions in a canyon and lives or dies with the consequences. If your not looking out for your own safety then you shouldn't be in the canyons.

tontwins

09-16-2013, 10:50 PM

Just to be clear about the "fellow" you speak of...Proves to me how ignorant of the facts you are as these were three separate events organized on a website that the "fellow" manages. These are not guided trips the people that go on these trips assume the risk and are ultimately responsible for their own safety as it should be.

tontwins

09-16-2013, 11:01 PM

and YES, I am a frakkin' a-hole, because I believe people that recklessly judge without knowing the facts should be beaten to a pulp, at least metaphorically.

Canyon Dog

09-16-2013, 11:10 PM

I was not the organizer of this trip, nor a designated canyon leader. It was requested that I provide lead support for one of the groups, which I was assigned to that morning.
The weather forecast had been watched and was at a 30% chance of rain for Saturday when I last checked. We had a shower during the night, but woke to clear blue skies with scattered small white puffy clouds......no rain in any direction. The photo I attached earlier was taken from the top of Trachyotomy, which is just 4-5 miles to the south. We had the same view to the southwest, which is the direction from which the wind was traveling. With no sight of rain or dark clouds to the southwest, we descended into Blarney with the impression that no rain would arrive in our vicinity in the couple of hours it would take to get through the canyon.
I'm no meteorologist and I would love to know how the rain clouds formed to bear down on us approximately 45 minutes after we dropped below the rim. There was not a strong wind, so an unseen storm could not have approached that quickly. All I can think is that the atmospheric conditions must have been in a state that formed rain clouds near or on top of North Wash that then dumped rain on the area for about 20-30 minutes.
All in all, it was a scary experience that added to all of our "toolboxes". The flame-fest here on Bogley is rough and my cohorts and I are the current targets. Hopefully the County DA will recognize that this was not a blatant case of Reckless Endangerment and we will not have to sit out the rest of our canyoneering days in the Garfield County Jail.
:annie:

MiCamp

09-17-2013, 02:42 AM

30% chance of rain means 70% chance of SUNSHINE. I was on the trip this weekend. Some people had rain, others did not.

Yeah, that's not really what it means.:nono:

This is the explanation for 'chance of rain' from NOAA.

What does this "40 percent" mean? ...will it rain 40 percent of of the time? ...will it rain over 40 percent of the area?
The "Probability of Precipitation" (PoP) describes the chance of precipitation occurring at any point you select in the area.
How do forecasters arrive at this value?
Mathematically, PoP is defined as follows:

PoP = C x A where "C" = the confidence that precipitation will occur somewhere in the forecast area, and where "A" = the percent of the area that will receive measureable precipitation, if it occurs at all.
So... in the case of the forecast above, if the forecaster knows precipitation is sure to occur ( confidence is 100% ), he/she is expressing how much of the area will receive measurable rain. ( PoP = "C" x "A" or "1" times ".4" which equals .4 or 40%.)
But, most of the time, the forecaster is expressing a combination of degree of confidence and areal coverage. If the forecaster is only 50% sure that precipitation will occur, and expects that, if it does occur, it will produce measurable rain over about 80 percent of the area, the PoP (chance of rain) is 40%. ( PoP = .5 x .8 which equals .4 or 40%. )
In either event, the correct way to interpret the forecast is: there is a 40 percent chance that rain will occur at any given point in the area.

Lets all be safe out there.:2thumbs:

Sandstone Addiction

09-17-2013, 05:53 AM

The weather forecast had been watched and was at a 30% chance of rain for Saturday when I last checked. We had a shower during the night, but woke to clear blue skies with scattered small white puffy clouds......no rain in any direction. The photo I attached earlier was taken from the top of Trachyotomy, which is just 4-5 miles to the south. We had the same view to the southwest, which is the direction from which the wind was traveling. With no sight of rain or dark clouds to the southwest, we descended into Blarney with the impression that no rain would arrive in our vicinity in the couple of hours it would take to get through the canyon.

Thank you for sharing your story and am glad to hear everyone made it out ok.

69420

For me, your pic from the top of Trachyotomy paints a whole different picture. Years ago, we used to go to Lake Powell a lot during monsoon season and it didn't take long to figure out that if we woke up to the thin mid level clouds like the ones in your pic, we were likely to see major thunderstorm activity and would plan accordingly. But your pic also shows thunderstorms building, not just over the Henry's, but also over the low desert regions which would indicate that they could build anywhere and time to high tail it to higher ground.

Scott P

09-17-2013, 06:15 AM

30% chance of rain means 70% chance of SUNSHINE. I was on the trip this weekend.

Which forecast said 30%? As mentioned, Escalante said 100% and others have said it was 50-60% for North Wash. For sure there were hazardous weather outlooks and flash flood warnings out all week, including on and before the weekend (even if the flash flood warning hadn't been issued yet there was a hazardous weather outlook for all of southern Utah.

The only reason I ask is because I've noticed that websites such as weather.com et al tend to be less accurate outside the major cities and towns than does the noaa.forecast.

Still, 30% is a pretty high chance for a slot canyon. Not so much on a normal hike since rain doesn't matter as much.

In addition to % rain, make sure to keep an eye on the Hazardous Weather Outlook.

When in effect, they are at the top of each weather forecast from NOAA.

Example:

http://forecast.weather.gov/MapClick.php?lat=38.3730379&lon=-110.71403909999998&site=all&smap=1&searchresult=Hanksville%2C%20UT%2084734%2C%20USA#. UjhZdLXnZCp

http://forecast.weather.gov/showsigwx.php?warnzone=UTZ013&warncounty=UTC055&firewxzone=UTZ494&local_place1=&product1=Hazardous+Weather+Outlook#.UjhZoLXnZCo

I'm no meteorologist and I would love to know how the rain clouds formed to bear down on us approximately 45 minutes after we dropped below the rim

Day time heating. If the humidity and dew point were already high in the morning, there is a good chance of thunderstorms during the monsoon season.

Eric Holden

09-17-2013, 06:27 AM

:2thumbs:
Just a passing point of interest too - the morning after the Constrictnine incident we asked around at the group breakfast gathering if people would contribute $$ toward buying equipment for the two county SAR teams that mobilized for that event. First thought in passing the hat was we might be able to collect $200; then someone said let's shoot for $250. By the time it was counted, $1000 had been collected. I would say these are people who showed they know and appreciate the value of rescue. :2thumbs:

Iceaxe

09-17-2013, 06:28 AM

as there is not a common denominator leader in these canyon incidents.

I believe one of the common denominators in the current string of North Wash mishaps are meet-up groups. It might be a good idea to try and understand why these particular groups keep getting in trouble.

The meet-up groups are becoming as notorious as boy scouts for getting into bad situations.

Thoughts? Other common denominators? Always pinning the blame on bad luck is a poor practice as we make our own luck, good or bad....

Also... what is up with this "canyon leader" stuff. I believe unless you are being guided there should be no canyon leader as it creates a poor system for requiring personal responsibility. Just my two cents....

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

deagol

09-17-2013, 06:29 AM

...
Still, 30% is a pretty high chance for a slot canyon. Not so much on a normal hike since rain doesn't matter as much......
I am not meaning to "pile on" but this was my thought as well. Anytime I have noticed a 30% chance of rain, it rains. Also, if that pic was taken in the early morning (say before 10:00 AM) and you already have the low puffy clouds like that: bad sign IMHO
I believe one of the common denominators in the current string of North Wash mishaps are meet-up groups. It might be a good idea to try and understand why these particular groups keep getting in trouble.
....... Interesting observation. Maybe a Meetup group connects strangers who don't know anything about each other's abilities ?? Maybe someone signing up assumes they will be "taken care of" ?

Eric Holden

09-17-2013, 06:36 AM

30% chance of rain means 70% chance of SUNSHINE. I was on the trip this weekend. Some people had rain, others did not.

I always look at it this way..... 30% chance of rain=30% chance of getting swept away to my death.....I shall pass when the forecast calls for this.

Eric Holden

09-17-2013, 06:40 AM

The meet-up groups are becoming as notorious as boy scouts for getting into bad situations.

Thoughts? Other common denominators? Always pinning the blame on bad luck is a poor practice as we make our own luck, good or bad....

I have only been to a couple of meetup groups, both times were climbing, and it was the irresponsible leading the blind. I wanted to climb so I went against my better judgement of "I don't think these guys know what they are doing"...... I was dropped and decked while on top rope both occasions... never again.

hank moon

09-17-2013, 06:57 AM

Home-made pancakes for breakfast this morning. Walnuts, maple, real butter. Yummy! The only thing that could have made it better? Buckwheat.

I am also curious about the dynamics of a meetup group, especially w/respect to risk management. How is participant ability / preparedness assessed? Or is it? How does the assessment (if there is one) get done? How does the group decide who goes where, who doesn't go at all, or whether the trip runs at all? What equipment to bring, etc.? I need to get out on one of these meetups sometime and see what is happening out there. Obviously!

Slot Machine

09-17-2013, 09:48 AM

30% chance of rain means 70% chance of SUNSHINE. I was on the trip this weekend. Some people had rain, others did not.

Not exactly. :facepalm1:

First, unlike the stock market, past weather performance IS indicitive of future results. Computer modeling has its limitations and is no replacement for common sense. Closely studying the satellite images and observing the "pattern" is FAR more useful than relying solely on a guesstimated 30/70 prediction.

Torrential rains over the past 7 days? All the Zion canyons are closed? Roads washing out? Noah pleading with you to board his ark? ... Primitive people would call these "signs". Signs to stay home.

I had Saturday, Sunday and Monday set aside for canyoneering with friends. All day Thursday and Friday we closely (and independantly) watched the forecast. We all came to the same conclusion of "Hell no!", then stayed home. Foresight was 20/20.

So... I'm amazed any of you crazies were in the North Wash on Saturday. I don't feel bad for any of you, because all events were predictable and avoidable.

Second, the flash flood video in this thread SUCKS!! Am I the only one that was screaming "TURN THE CAMERA AROUND!" while watching?? Even your own mothers don't want to see your faces when a flash flood is happening on the other side of the camera. Get your priorities right the next time you go flashyoneering! :nono: :haha:

Bob

Iceaxe

09-17-2013, 10:38 AM

Someone sent this video link to me. It's worth a look.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10151848490905100

It looks like we hurt somebodies feelings as the video has now been set to private. So on behalf of all Bogley members I'd like to apologies...

We're sorry if we hurt your feelings for calling your actions stupid.... we thought you already knew...

:popcorn:

flatiron

09-17-2013, 11:08 AM

I am also curious about the dynamics of a meetup group, especially w/respect to risk management. How is participant ability / preparedness assessed? Or is it? How does the assessment (if there is one) get done? How does the group decide who goes where, who doesn't go at all, or whether the trip runs at all? What equipment to bring, etc.? I need to get out on one of these meetups sometime and see what is happening out there. Obviously!

I too have never been to a meetup - or rendezvous - have no desire. I do have friends who have gone to Rends. I ask them the same q's Hank just did. Their answers are basically: it's all confusion - with little or no assessment on who, or what, or abilities. Canyons take way longer to complete cause of large uncoordinated groups with vast levels of competence. And it has a sense of a big fun social event with old/new buddies WHILE we are lead thru a canyon. Their stories scare me straight away from ever joining. (plus I don't want to camp, and do canyons, with 50+ of my new best friends - that's just me) Frankly I am amazed there aren't MORE accidents. My friends go because 1) they want to do canyons and don't want to lead, or have info to do on own. 2) meet other canyoneers 3) social aspect b4, during and after. What seems to be a good idea is not well thought out - especially when doing a possibly dangerous thing like canyons. Canyons are NOT like hikes or bikes, or skiing, etc. So I do understand the popularity of these things - but for all the good intentions IMHO it is not conducive to safety at all. And unless a Leader or small group of leaders take charge of each individual meetup/rend to organize and assess, this will be an ongoing issue. That is a real easy forecast!!

accadacca

09-17-2013, 11:35 AM

It looks like we hurt somebodies feelings as the video has now been set to private. So on behalf of all Bogley members I'd like to apologies...

We're sorry if we hurt your feelings for calling your actions stupid.... we thought you already knew...

:popcorn:

That's too bad. We all learn from each others mistakes and seeing the video is a teaching moment for many, regardless if the event was avoidable or not by the party involved.

Even the most experienced Canyoneers have made mistakes, as mentioned in this thread and others. This thread has seemed pretty balanced to me.

Danno

09-17-2013, 12:18 PM

Someone was able to get video of Saturday's flood in progress at Sandthrax campground. Don't know if this was the peak of the flood or not, but it's obviously pumping a large amount of water into the camp and you can see how it's ripping out the entrance road by the Irish Canyons sign.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzamkmEhEMo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzamkmEhEMo

Iceaxe

09-17-2013, 04:19 PM

30% chance of rain means 70% chance of SUNSHINE.

Actually.... in weather forecasting a 30% chance of rain means that 30% of the area being discussed will receive rain. Which is kinda the same thing and kinda not.

tontwins

09-17-2013, 04:27 PM

Bob - I’d say on behalf of the entire group were not asking for your sympathy.

To the others who have brought up meet up groups and others similar groups I’d say those are fair criticisms that do have merit. I’d say that group psychology was likely a factor in us deciding to go that day. We all met prior to leaving and the weather was not discussed for any length of time nor debated as it should have been. We made it a point to get out early as we didn’t want to start late. Had we waited a few hours this would have never occurred and I might have even been able to save my tent assuming we stayed in camp.

I have gone on many group trips and for me at least the positive experiences have outweighed the negative ones. I’ve made some great friends and shared some amazing experiences. One thing that I have always enjoyed about group trips is teaching someone a new skill, seeing someone overcome a fear, and experience something new. In that moment you feel their energy and sense of accomplishment.

I am evaluating if I will ever go on a canyonering trip in a group like meetup or others again. Perhaps the risk and danger are to high with canyoneering. I know I would not be able to live with myself had someone died. I Know I speak for everyone when I say we have learned from this. My hope in sharing on this blog is others will learn from it too.

Scott P

09-17-2013, 04:55 PM

If anyone is wondering/curious, here is an exact cut and paste of the weather warnings that were posted for Hanksville at least as early as Thursday. It was posted Thursday through Sunday exactly as it appears below.

"DUE TO THE HEAVY RAINFALL THAT HAS FALLEN OVER MOST OF THE
FLOOD WARNING AREA...MANY IF NOT ALL OF THE WATER COURSES ARE
FLOWING AT OR NEAR FLOOD LEVELS. THIS INCLUDES SLOTS...DRY
WASHES...SMALL STREAMS...SMALL RIVERS AND SOME OF THE LARGER RIVERS
IN THE AREA.

ADDITIONALLY MANY ROADWAYS HAVE BEEN COVERED BY DEBRIS AND FLOOD
WATERS AS THE FLOODED STREAMS AND RIVERS CROSS STATE HIGHWAYS. IN
SOME CASES BOULDERS THE SIZE OF CARS HAVE BEEN DEPOSITED.

BURN SCARS WITHIN THE WARNED AREA CONTINUE TO PRODUCE DEBRIS FLOWS
AND DAMAGE ROADWAYS AND BRIDGE STRUCTURES.

MANY OF THE MORE FLASH FLOOD PRONE AREAS SUCH AS NATIONAL PARKS AND
MONUMENTS IN THE SOUTHERN END OF THE FLOOD WARNING AREA ARE ALL
FLOODING DUE TO THE NATURE OF WIDESPREAD RAINFALL FALLING OVER VERY
IMPERVIOUS SOILS AND STEEP GRADES. THESE AREAS WILL BE FLOWING
THROUGH THE NIGHTTIME HOURS AND INTO THE MORNING.

PLEASE BE VERY VIGILANT IF YOU ARE TRAVELING IN OR AROUND THESE
AREAS. TAKE STEPS TO ENSURE YOUR SAFETY."

Anyway, as mentioned before everyone makes mistakes. I think we all have, so it doesn't do too much good to dwell on it.

Avalanche warnings and flash flood warnings are something to take seriously or to keep current on, since unlike other dangers, there isn't that much you can do if you ever get caught in one. I've seen them both, but never been caught in one. It's a pretty awesome thing to watch from a safe distance.

canyon69

09-17-2013, 05:04 PM

this is the sky before we dropped in

I was not the organizer of this trip, nor a designated canyon leader. It was requested that I provide lead support for one of the groups, which I was assigned to that morning.
The weather forecast had been watched and was at a 30% chance of rain for Saturday when I last checked. We had a shower during the night, but woke to clear blue skies with scattered small white puffy clouds......no rain in any direction. The photo I attached earlier was taken from the top of Trachyotomy, which is just 4-5 miles to the south. We had the same view to the southwest, which is the direction from which the wind was traveling. With no sight of rain or dark clouds to the southwest, we descended into Blarney with the impression that no rain would arrive in our vicinity in the couple of hours it would take to get through the canyon.
I'm no meteorologist and I would love to know how the rain clouds formed to bear down on us approximately 45 minutes after we dropped below the rim. There was not a strong wind, so an unseen storm could not have approached that quickly. All I can think is that the atmospheric conditions must have been in a state that formed rain clouds near or on top of North Wash that then dumped rain on the area for about 20-30 minutes.
All in all, it was a scary experience that added to all of our "toolboxes". The flame-fest here on Bogley is rough and my cohorts and I are the current targets. Hopefully the County DA will recognize that this was not a blatant case of Reckless Endangerment and we will not have to sit out the rest of our canyoneering days in the Garfield County Jail.
:annie:6942269423:eek2::eek2:694246942269430

Canyoneerman

09-17-2013, 05:08 PM

The lesson to be learned here is no groups should have been out canyoneering last weekend. I don’t care if it was only 30% chance, a little research would have revealed that there was a high change of flash floods across Utah. We need to change the canyoneering roulette mentality. This trip should have been called off before anyone drove to the North Wash.

It is too easy for us once we have committed to drive down there to say I will just make the judgment call when I get to the top of the canyon. Is a group really going to hike back down after driving to the North Wash and also hike up to the top of the canyon? The only way they call it is if they see an imminent thunder storm on the horizon.

It sounds like a number of groups were out in the North Wash and my guess is at other locations across Utah. We need to change the canyoneering roulette culture. I have learned from my mistakes in the past to do the right canyon in the right weather, with the right team, with the right technical experience and equipment, with the correct daylight. Anything else has the potential to lead to trouble. This trip should have been called off before anyone left.

Canyon Dog

09-17-2013, 05:47 PM

this is the sky before we dropped in

canyon69, thanks for posting these pics. It is now much more obvious that our assessment of the sky and my memory of such was lacking. While we are below the rim here, we are still above the technical slot section where it would have been much easier to avoid the floodwater. While we were in full sun on the rim, the building clouds can be seen in these shots.

Deathcricket

09-17-2013, 05:48 PM

Tom

ps. and YES, I am a frakkin' a-hole, because I believe people that recklessly endanger other people's lives should be taken behind the dumpster and beaten to a pulp, at least metaphorically. Being a frakkin' a-hole is my job around here, and I take pride in my work.

Not really shocked to hear Tom say such hateful things. Over the years I've come to expect these things from him and I knew coming into this thread he would be all over it. An old guy who lives alone and never gets laid? Heck I would be mad at the world and have sand in my vag too. :lol8:

I am kinda shocked though at the number of people agreeing with him. I think Hank really had the best approach, if people are out there being dangerous, the best idea is to reach out and help them. Bashing them and ragging da skillz not really gonna help.

Absolute Gravity

09-17-2013, 06:05 PM

this is the sky before we dropped in

Jesus. I'm no meteorologist but those look like they are getting ready to drop some MF rain. Plants are all green, soil looks saturated. Looks like a flash waiting to happen. Your post should have read 'before we decided not to drop in'. Glad it turned out all right for the most part. Sucks when things go bad.

canyon69

09-17-2013, 06:37 PM

somebody has some personal issue here not related to the topic:roll:

Not really shocked to hear Tom say such hateful things. Over the years I've come to expect these things from him and I knew coming into this thread he would be all over it. An old guy who lives alone and never gets laid? Heck I would be mad at the world and have sand in my vag too. :lol8:

I am kinda shocked though at the number of people agreeing with him. I think Hank really had the best approach, if people are out there being dangerous, the best idea is to reach out and help them. Bashing them and ragging da skillz not really gonna help.

Byron

09-17-2013, 07:16 PM

I am kinda shocked though at the number of people agreeing with him. I think Hank really had the best approach, if people are out there being dangerous, the best idea is to reach out and help them. Bashing them and ragging da skillz not really gonna help.I don't know, DC...looking at the pictures and hearing about the forecast seems to add up to major brain fart to me. Of course some folks are going to pile on...certainly you don't expect EVERYONE to come in all nice and cuddly coo.

For any of you that may have been involved in this, try not to take what is said here personally...ya screw up, ya get slapped around for it and learn. It's all good, especially that no one got hurt...most everyone on this site is really cool, even if they (and myself) gets a bit rough sometimes. Everyone is welcome, as I see lots of new members chiming in on this. Don't worry about Tom, he's a bit more bark than bite.

Byron

09-17-2013, 07:19 PM

somebody has some personal issue here not related to the topic:roll:Come around more often, as this is a regular occurrence...adds a bit of spice to the proceedings and I'm all for it.

Iceaxe

09-17-2013, 09:46 PM

It's all good, especially that no one got hurt...

I think you mean "especially that no one died"... because people did get hurt.

Which I believe is one of the reasons the criticism is kinda harsh, that combined with the fact this is not the first injury incident involving this group this year.

:cool2:

tiho

09-17-2013, 10:48 PM

I was part of the beer tasting and canyoneering trip as well. At this point my thoughts are with the three victims and their families. I hope they recover quickly and come back to play and see us at another beer tasting!!!!

This is not to criticize anyone - just some events that make me pretty sad. People were coming back at the destroyed campground and ended up trying to clear the campground of cars and derbies and fix the road out. About 2 hours however passed while the victims were about 15 min away from the road with insufficient help. We had so much manpower that we could have quickly carried the 3 victims out safely and, bring dry clothes and medicine to them. Instead we were thinking that the SAR team wants us out of the canyon and not to interfere. There was no SAR team. Two hours later the victims are coming out with near hypothermia, victim 1 was being carried out but victim 2 was carried out by victim 3. Lack of information, confusion and shock took the better of us and we did not provide enough assistance to the victims .. it just makes me so sad that they were 15-20 min away from the road and we left them to struggle out on their own pretty much. I know some people went in and helped but in my point of view that was not enough help.

accadacca

09-17-2013, 10:52 PM

So what happened to the victims? Did I miss that part of the story? Would love to hear what happened.

tiho

09-17-2013, 11:01 PM

My understanding is that two were stemming out about 30-40 feet high and slipped / fell in the raging water and sustained leg injuries. I think the third victim just sprained ankle somehow.

Canyon Dog

09-17-2013, 11:04 PM

I provided a detailed account yesterday.
The 3rd injury was unknown to me. I believe that one of our guys who left to find help for the 2 injured ladies sprained his ankle while rushing out.

Eric Holden

09-18-2013, 06:29 AM

For any of you that may have been involved in this, try not to take what is said here personally...ya screw up, ya get slapped around for it and learn.

+1 to this. I would say most of us have done something we shouldn't have and, through luck, we are still here to write about it on the internets. Hearing "You are so stupid! Why did you do that?!?!" Helps to beat in a lesson. If everyone said "Wow, that was cool! Check out all that water!" It would only make people go out again in the same conditions, this time with worse consequences.

Eric Holden

09-18-2013, 06:32 AM

So what happened to the victims? Did I miss that part of the story? Would love to hear what happened.

http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?69911-Blarney-and-Sandthrax-flashflood&p=543524#post543524

canyoncaver

09-18-2013, 07:51 AM

I'm no meteorologist and I would love to know how the rain clouds formed to bear down on us approximately 45 minutes after we dropped below the rim. There was not a strong wind, so an unseen storm could not have approached that quickly. All I can think is that the atmospheric conditions must have been in a state that formed rain clouds near or on top of North Wash that then dumped rain on the area for about 20-30 minutes.

I know how it happened, because I have seen it happen just like this more than a few times. The storm did not blow in from anywhere else, it formed right on top of the Henry Mtns.

Thunderstorms form when air is rapidly lifted to and above an elevation that is below the dew point. This can happen from rising warm air, which is the method that most of us are familiar with. It's hot out, the humidity is high, and moist air gets lifted to an elevation where water droplets (or in many cases, ice) must form. These water droplets are heavy and cool, so they sink rapidly. This forms the downdraft side of the convection cell. When the downdraft hits the ground, it fans out along the land surface. This is the cool, gusty wind that you feel when near (especially when about to be overrun by) a storm cloud.

In addition to this basic way that thunderstorms form, there are several other varieties. One is an orographic thunderstorm. These form as winds force moist air up the windward side of mountain range. Anyone that climbs fourteeners is familiar with this type of storm. It doesn't matter that you can't see any clouds between you and the western horizon. If the conditions are right, the storm will form right on top of you out of clear air. This is the reason that peakbaggers get up at the butt crack of dawn or before and plan on being back below treeline before noon.

This exact phenomenon happens routinely on the Henry Mtns. My observation on the Henrys is that the storms do not just rain on the Henrys. The storm often forms and then blows off the top of the Henrys and marches off to cause havoc somewhere in the surrounding area whether it be the Maidenwaters, Lake Powell, North Wash, or even the Roost. North Wash is more or less in the middle of "tornado alley" for these Henry-born storms.

On a trip to the area in April of this year, we planned on going to S. Maidenwater. The forecast was clear. As we hiked up the hill from the car, we saw the buildup happening over the Henrys. This caused us to reassess. We decided to go do something farther away from the Henrys so we went to Blarney instead. As we exited Blarney, we could see that the storm had blown off the Henrys and was headed our way. With the Henrys now clear, we drove back over and did Middle Maidenwater. As we dropped in, we could see the storm dumping on North Wash where we had just been 2 hours before.

So, you can see that a little bit of meteorological training goes a long way in making these life-or-death decisions. It is most certainly a tool that you need to have in your toolbox. I am not a meteorologist either, but educating myself on the subject has certainly helped save my bacon more than a few times. My will to live and my responsibilities to family and others requires it.

It is appalling to me that anyone would drop into a canyon with the kinds of clouds that are seen in Canyon69's photos. It does not matter if the decision was made out of recklessness or ignorance. Either way, you have made a decision to endanger yourself, your team, the SAR team, and also everyone's access to these wonderful canyons.

My only comment on meetup groups is that I find canyoneering to have plenty of danger and excitement even in a small group of competent people. I have no desire to ratchet up the risk by going with a bunch of strangers, most of them noobs, and one or two people that (maybe) know what they are doing.

deagol

09-18-2013, 08:12 AM

....

Thunderstorms form when air is rapidly lifted to and above an elevation that is below the dew point. This can happen from rising warm air, which is the method that most of us are familiar with. It's hot out, the humidity is high, and moist air gets lifted to an elevation where water droplets (or in many cases, ice) must form. These water droplets are heavy and cool, so they sink rapidly. This forms the downdraft side of the convection cell. When the downdraft hits the ground, it fans out along the land surface. ..... You can see this Phenomenon occur in those cool weather time-lapse videos. The clouds don't have to come from somewhere else, they form right there in no time. Pretty cool to see.

neumannbruce

09-18-2013, 09:44 AM

Meetup groups usually contain more beginners than those experienced assessing technical challenges. Everyone’s definition of experienced is going to vary, but I’d say it requires more than what people think.

I think that meeting up to go mountain biking, hiking, or bowling is vastly different than meeting up to go canyoneering or rock climbing. But the meet up websites do not discern this and the organizers/promoters probably do a very good job of painting a lets have fun picture that glosses over the inherent dangers of these activities. The new or beginner participants trust the organizers/promoters.

To conclude, it is my opinion that large groups (in general) in canyons can, may, and do create an atmosphere of security that leads to bad decision making. I would say to the individual looking to engage in these activities that mentoring is essential with canyoneering and rock climbing by someone with broad, deep, and lengthy experience. If you don’t want to be mentored but rather seek an occasional experience, it is time to hire a reputable guide service. That being said there lies moral responsibility with the organizers and the experienced participants of these groups to ensure safety of all, or do not have these types of meet ups.

Iceaxe

09-18-2013, 01:24 PM

What type of ratio do these meet-up groups have of noobs vs experienced?

They should be no more than 2 novice to one experienced person. And by experienced I do not mean you took an ACA class last year and have a dozen canyons under your belt. Nothing is worse than noobs leading noobs.

FWIW: My definition of experienced is you have led (not followed) dozens of Heaps, Imlay, Kolob type canyons, you have guided young and old through dozens of easy canyons, and always brought your groups home safely.

I have been to dozens of fests (Bogley fests, Tom fests, Uutah fests, etc) and we never have these issues. Worst injury I can remember is a skinned knee, We are taking thousands of canyon hours, in hundreds of canyons. So why are these meet-up groups having issues? I don't believe it's the strangers doing canyons with strangers. At one time I was a canyon slut and doing slots with new partners every week, I know others of you have done the same thing. We didn't have these issues. So what is the deal with meet-ups? I've never done a meet-up and just curious what dynamics are different and causing problems?

ratagonia

09-18-2013, 02:04 PM

Noah pleading with you to board his ark?

:roflol:

ratagonia

09-18-2013, 02:10 PM

I think Hank really had the best approach, if people are out there being dangerous, the best idea is to reach out and help them. Bashing them and ragging da skillz not really gonna help.

I don't have so much of a problem with people going out and endangering THEMSELVES.

My issue is with people going out and endangering other people. Again. And again. And...

Tom

mzamp

09-18-2013, 02:24 PM

:oops:

ratagonia

09-18-2013, 03:56 PM

For any of you that may have been involved in this, try not to take what is said here personally...ya screw up, ya get slapped around for it and learn. It's all good, especially that no one got hurt...most everyone on this site is really cool, even if they (and myself) gets a bit rough sometimes. Everyone is welcome, as I see lots of new members chiming in on this. Don't worry about Tom, he's a bit more bark than bite.

No.

Absolutely NOT!

The dudes that created this situation should take it VERY personally. The people that know the dudes should also take it personally to the extent of making sure these guys don't take more noobs out and get them hurt or killed.

I hear a whole lot of denial, and not a whole lot of taking responsibility.

Unfortunately, I do not have a personal relationship with the District Attorney in Garfield County or Mesa County, so yup, it's all bark. Arf arf arf!!!

Tom

canyondevil

09-18-2013, 03:59 PM

Looks like they are planning on going to Ticaboo in October. Those trip reports should be interesting. http://www.meetup.com/WesternSlopeAdventurers/events/calendar/

Slot Machine

09-18-2013, 04:55 PM

Looks like they are planning on going to Ticaboo in October. Those trip reports should be interesting. http://www.meetup.com/WesternSlopeAdventurers/events/calendar/

Thanks for posting this CD.

Doug, DougInGJCO, thank you for asking permission before using my photo on your site. And thank you for giving credit below the photo. Both common courtesies in the internet world...

69433

Byron

09-18-2013, 07:42 PM

The jackass's that created this situation should take it VERY personally.

TomTom, I agree with ya...and I'd bet the "leader" of this (and other) debacle feels like crap, especially when he's having to carry his new found hypothermic friend with a tweaked knee out of a mess he led them into. But there's a difference between slapping him around, givin' him a bit of grief and a full on bludgeoning.

I think "Dude, what the hell are you doing?" works a whole lot better than spitting "Moron, Idiot, Jackass, Dumb****" in his face. There's no doubt that you'll never want to hike with this guy, but I'd give him a chance...and determine for myself whether he's a fool or just had some hard luck. Certainly though...I'd make damn sure he's following ME.

If nothing else, some folks around here are learning that low, puffy, grey clouds dancing around the Henry's at 9 o'clock in the morning spells trouble.

ratagonia

09-18-2013, 10:21 PM

Tom, I agree with ya...and I'd bet the "leader" of this (and other) debacle feels like crap, especially when he's having to carry his new found hypothermic friend with a tweaked knee out of a mess he led them into. But there's a difference between slapping him around, givin' him a bit of grief and a full on bludgeoning.

I think "Dude, what the hell are you doing?" works a whole lot better than spitting "Moron, Idiot, Jackass, Dumb****" in his face. There's no doubt that you'll never want to hike with this guy, but I'd give him a chance...and determine for myself whether he's a fool or just had some hard luck. Certainly though...I'd make damn sure he's following ME.

If nothing else, some folks around here are learning that low, puffy, grey clouds dancing around the Henry's at 9 o'clock in the morning spells trouble.

Byron, instructing me on civility??? What has the world come to! :facepalm1::facepalm1::facepalm1:

But your point is well-taken, Byron. Even if the messenger is ... unusual.

Tom

ratagonia

09-18-2013, 10:37 PM

These are not guided trips the people that go on these trips assume the risk and are ultimately responsible for their own safety as it should be.

Isn't this an "all-comers" event? My impression is that you guys have a couple of 'experienced' people that take large groups of beginners out.

True beginners do not have the ability to assume the risk. They have no way of assessing the leadership of the events. Ultimately, they do not have responsibility for their own safety, they rely on the expertise of the 'couple of experienced people' who are nominally in charge, and upon the good judgment of the meetup group organizer.

Now, you may not see it this way; but I think this is a statement of the reality of the situation.

Up in Salt Lake City a few years back, there was an interesting lawsuit kinda related to this situation. Guy invited a gal out on a date to go rock climbing, purporting to know how to do it, to be 'an expert'. He set up a top rope, with the rope just running through the webbing, no rings or carabiners. She fell to the ground got messed up, sued, won. The fact that the guy was married trying to get some action on the side probably did not help his case with a Salt Lake jury.

In that case, it was clear that he had no clue what he was doing, as toproping directly through the sling is CLEARLY wrong.

In these cases, the liability is somewhat less clear. But I can assure you, someone ends up in a wheelchair, you'll end up in court. Juries are sympathetic to people in wheelchairs.

Tom