Some newbie questions and just wanted to say hello!

[Ecegatorturo]

Hi everyone! I just joined Bogley and wanted to say hello and also ask a few newbie questions. Sorry if this post is long as I just want to ask a lot of questions. :)

I'm planning a trip to Zion mid-October to do some backpacking and canyoneering. I've rappelled before (used to be on ski patrol) but canyoneering is a new thing to me. I've done extensive research and I went out with a friend (who is experienced in canyoneering) to do some practice. The day we practiced we did some work in water and it also happened to be raining so we had some nice, slippery rocks which was great because I needed the practice in wet scenarios. I learned a great deal from him and I've had some more practice since then. I am practicing with another friend of mine who is also new to this so we are both ready. We plan to lead a few other newbie friends on our Zion trip. I'm always very aware with regards to safety (thanks to my workplace environment) so I just want to make it clear that I'm not going into these canyons blindly without any instruction or idea of what I'm doing. My buddy will basically be the fireman's belay (first down) and I will be the last down so I can check everyone's harness and make sure they are all clipped in and doing things correctly.

Being that I've never actually gone rappelling into a slot canyon, I have some practical questions about doing this kind of thing. I have a 60m 9mm rope, a rope bag, an ATC, and the usual assortment of caribiners, prussik loops, and ascender. Here are some of my questions:

I plan to rap everything double strand for simplicity sake as well as increasing friction for beginners. Would it make sense to tie both ends of the rope to the bottom of the rope bag? My thought is that you can just tie off the middle of the rope to your anchor and toss the bag. This way the rope plays out and you get the exact length you need without having to pull the entire rope out.
Do the dynamics of your body movement and rappel change significantly when using a wetsuit? I've never worn a wetsuit before so I'm just curious about the affect it would have.
I always wear gloves when rappelling but I've noticed a lot of people (in pictures and videos) don't wear gloves in the canyons. Is there a specific reason why? I personally think this would be a safety issue, especially on long free-rappels.
What else do people usually bring with them in their dry bag? Besides lunch (and maybe photography equipment), I can't imagine much else so I'm just trying to figure out why people have such large dry bags. All of your other rappelling equipment is getting wet so no need to put that in the dry bag. How leak-proof are dry bags? Are they pretty reliable? I've also read that dry bags help with buoyancy during swims so this sounds like a plus.
Any other tips or suggestions for me?


Our Zion itinerary is as follows:
Day 1: Backpack West Rim trail (casual pace)
Day 2: Finish West Rim and end with Angel's Landing
Day 3: Warm up in Keyhole Canyon and then finish the day in Pine Creek Canyon
Day 4: Subway from the top

My only concern about being newbies would be Pine Creek Canyon with the final 100-foot free-rappel. One of the guys in my group is fairly big (250lbs) so my thought was to add another biner to his ATC and possibly even set him up with a z-rig. I would rather have too much friction than not enough. What are your thoughts?

Sorry for the long-winded post. :)

[SRG]

Welcome to Bogley!


Would it make sense to tie both ends of the rope to the bottom of the rope bag?
Nope, you're going to have to have a loose end of rope to thread it through your anchor, as you will likely be rappelling from some sort of closed anchor such as a D-ring or a cemented shut quick-link. There are ways to rappel without doing this, such as a macrame knot, but since you want your setup straightforward and simple the answer is "no".


Do the dynamics of your body movement and rappel change significantly when using a wetsuit?
Nope. Maybe if you have a thick wetsuit that's too tight it would be restrictive, but otherwise no.


What else do people usually bring with them in their dry bag? I bring enough clothes to survive the night if my outfit gets drenched and I get stuck, a SPOT connect and a GPS with the car marked as a waypoint which I never bring out, and some tape.


How leak-proof are dry bags? Are they pretty reliable?
In my experience, if folded up carefully and properly and not forcibly submerged, usually dry bags will help a lot in keeping your pack afloat and your stuff dry. After a wet canyon there is almost always a little bit of water inside the bag when all is said and done, but none of my stuff is saturated with water.


Any other tips or suggestions for me?
Regardless of the water situation in Keyhole and the air temperature, bring a wetsuit through Pine Creek.

-Sam

[ratagonia]

SRG got most of the important points across.

Good to see you spent some time brushing up on skills with a buddy who is clued in. :2thumbs:

The label "9mm rope" covers a lot of ground - a 9mm canyoneering rope is a lot more rope than a 9mm climbing rope or a 9mm (general) static rope. Well, your general static rope varies a LOT.

GLOVES: I generally wear gloves canyoneering, but I also think it important for noobs to NOT rely on the gloves. They (with your help) should set up their rappel device as if they don't have gloves, then the gloves provide some additional safety margin. For this reason, many classes do not use gloves.

Then again, the RIGHT gloves provide additional safety margin, while the WRONG gloves take it away. So I would advise against gloves, unless you are sure you can get them right.

DRY BAGS: some people have a hard time getting drybags to work. You need good ones, they need to be closed carefully with as little air in them as possible, and then they need to be taken care of. Packs are worn or carried. Dropping them more than 2 feet into a pool will generally cause the drybag to fail. Mid-October, you will want warm clothes. Some people in your group will be quite cold by the time you get to the end - and they need to change out and get into dry clothes quickly. COOKIES are a good thing to bring along - tasty, fun, and they warm people up quickly.

More Friction:

Perhaps you have read my piece on using the ATC:

http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/techtips/black-diamond-atc-rappelling/

Double-line 9mm (?), high-friction side, your hefty buddy should be fine.

I hope you have more than one ATC??? And the ATC-XP.

You might want to do a ground-school with your friends the day before Keyhole. The first rap there gets after it pretty good. Plenty of places on the East Side to set up a nice, easy, friendly rappel down a slab, to get people comfortable with the process of sliding down a rope.

Have a great time!!

Tom :moses:

[Mojave Silence]

What else do people usually bring with them in their dry bag? Besides lunch (and maybe photography equipment), I can't imagine much else so I'm just trying to figure out why people have such large dry bags. All of your other rappelling equipment is getting wet so no need to put that in the dry bag. How leak-proof are dry bags? Are they pretty reliable? I've also read that dry bags help with buoyancy during swims so this sounds like a plus.
Any other tips or suggestions for me?



In the drybag: lightweight jacket, medical kit w/ sam splint, food, fire-starter, beanie, back-up fire-starter, rescue rope, maps/beta, GPS. I don't list a camera here as getting a waterproof one will be of more utility. I usually double dry bag everything if going into a wet canyon with lots of swims/jumps. One bag systems, unless treated like an expensive vase, will usually leak somewhat.
I'm not busting your chops, but here are a few things to consider: What's your rescue plan for a non-responsive rappeller 1/2 way down a double line 100' rap? If you get to a missing/damaged/nonexistent anchor midway through the canyon are you able to fix it or build a new one? Say you're stuck in Keyhole behind a slow group of 12 and people in your party are getting hypothermic, how will you handle this? Does anyone in your group have medical training? What happens if you or your belayer, or both get injured; will the others in your group be able to handle the situation? Just a few things to think about...

[Bootboy]

I actually leave a little air in my dry bags. The reason being is that when submerged, it creates more positive pressure inside the bag and if anything is going anywhere, it's the air leaving the bag WITH the pressure gradient, not water coming in AGAINST it. This has worked very well for me but your results may vary. The first fold when rolling dry bags is the most important. Good tight creases and no pleats. Double bagging isn't a bad idea but it really isn't necessary for the canyons on your itinerary. I can only think of a few canyons in zion that I would bother double bagging in, and even then, I don't.

[Ecegatorturo]

Welcome to Bogley!


Nope, you're going to have to have a loose end of rope to thread it through your anchor, as you will likely be rappelling from some sort of closed anchor such as a D-ring or a cemented shut quick-link. There are ways to rappel without doing this, such as a macrame knot, but since you want your setup straightforward and simple the answer is "no".


Nope. Maybe if you have a thick wetsuit that's too tight it would be restrictive, but otherwise no.

I bring enough clothes to survive the night if my outfit gets drenched and I get stuck, a SPOT connect and a GPS with the car marked as a waypoint which I never bring out, and some tape.


In my experience, if folded up carefully and properly and not forcibly submerged, usually dry bags will help a lot in keeping your pack afloat and your stuff dry. After a wet canyon there is almost always a little bit of water inside the bag when all is said and done, but none of my stuff is saturated with water.


Regardless of the water situation in Keyhole and the air temperature, bring a wetsuit through Pine Creek.

-Sam

Oh I see. I figured the quick-links that someone leaves behind would still be able to be opened. I guess I can't depend on that at all which makes sense. So in that case, what would be the most efficient way to deploy a double strand when you're doing short rappels? I'm just trying to understand what people typically do with a 60m rope on a short rap of let's say 30 feet. When you finish your rap, do you just quickly coil it and walk a short way to the next rap or do you pack it in the bag each time? This is the part of the cayoneering process I am totally clueless in and I'd rather figure out a technique now than before I reach the canyon.

You made a good point about brining extra clothing to survive the night in the event we get stranded somehow waiting for rescue.

As for the dry bag, do you think it would be a good idea to put most of my items in zip-loc bags (or another smaller drybag) if we wanted them to stay completely dry? We plan to wear wetsuits for the three canyons we are going in. Everywhere I've read has recommended wetsuits and we will be there in mid-October so the weather will certainly call for it.

Another question I just thought of right now is about the wetsuits. I'm guessing you're just wearing a normal bathing suit under it and nothing more?


SRG got most of the important points across.

Good to see you spent some time brushing up on skills with a buddy who is clued in. :2thumbs:

The label "9mm rope" covers a lot of ground - a 9mm canyoneering rope is a lot more rope than a 9mm climbing rope or a 9mm (general) static rope. Well, your general static rope varies a LOT.

GLOVES: I generally wear gloves canyoneering, but I also think it important for noobs to NOT rely on the gloves. They (with your help) should set up their rappel device as if they don't have gloves, then the gloves provide some additional safety margin. For this reason, many classes do not use gloves.

Then again, the RIGHT gloves provide additional safety margin, while the WRONG gloves take it away. So I would advise against gloves, unless you are sure you can get them right.

DRY BAGS: some people have a hard time getting drybags to work. You need good ones, they need to be closed carefully with as little air in them as possible, and then they need to be taken care of. Packs are worn or carried. Dropping them more than 2 feet into a pool will generally cause the drybag to fail. Mid-October, you will want warm clothes. Some people in your group will be quite cold by the time you get to the end - and they need to change out and get into dry clothes quickly. COOKIES are a good thing to bring along - tasty, fun, and they warm people up quickly.

More Friction:

Perhaps you have read my piece on using the ATC:

Double-line 9mm (?), high-friction side, your hefty buddy should be fine.

I hope you have more than one ATC??? And the ATC-XP.

You might want to do a ground-school with your friends the day before Keyhole. The first rap there gets after it pretty good. Plenty of places on the East Side to set up a nice, easy, friendly rappel down a slab, to get people comfortable with the process of sliding down a rope.

Have a great time!!

Tom :moses:

The rope I plan to use is a rope my canyoneering buddy lent me. He said it was a 9mm canyoneering specific rope. He said it wasn't a static rope but it wasn't a dynamic rope. It has a slight give to it but nothing like a dynamic rope. I didn't realize they make canyoneering specific ropes as I always thought you would use a static rope.

I'm not quite sure I understand how gloves would hinder you setting up your rope and your rappel device. I wore gloves the last few times that I was practicing and had no problems handing the equipment. Am I missing something here? Maybe you can clarify your point. :) The gloves I was using were specific for rappelling as they had a rectangular patch of leather than ran across the palm exactly where the rope would go.

Thanks for the tips with the dry bags. I didn't realize how they can leak that easily. Regarding clothes, that is one part I'm trying to figure out. When you put on your wetsuit, what are you wearing underneath? Everything will get wet so would you just wear a bathing suit and nothing else? Or do people actually wear clothes underneath? I know this sounds like a stupid question but I've never used a wetsuit in my life. :P I definitely plan to use one for this trip however (and I'm forcing everyone else to do the same). So what I'm thinking in my head is that you're pretty much just wearing a bathing suit in your wetsuit. When you get to the area where you finally will get out of it, then you change into dry clothes. Is that right? These sound like such basic questions but I just want to nail the logistics down before so the trip runs as smooth as possible.

You wrote that article on the ATCs? I saw that a few weeks ago actually and it was very good! Thanks for that write up! I personally use the old school ATC and I haven't had any problems with it so far. My buddy lent me two other ATC-XPs so I will probably have my other friends use those so they can get the higher friction. So you think for someone who is 250-275 shouldn't have a problem with double strand on the high friction side with a single carabiner for that long 100-foot free-rappel in Pine Creek? I will have a belay below so that is at least some piece of mind.

Before we leave Phoenix (where I live), I am doing a lot of instruction and taking everyone to do some 100 foot easy walking rappels. I want to make sure everyone is very comfortable with going down the rope before I allow anyone to enter the canyons. They will know, once we enter a canyon, we are fully committed so they need to be very comfortable with this. If not, they can wait for the group outside! :)




In the drybag: lightweight jacket, medical kit w/ sam splint, food, fire-starter, beanie, back-up fire-starter, rescue rope, maps/beta, GPS. I don't list a camera here as getting a waterproof one will be of more utility. I usually double dry bag everything if going into a wet canyon with lots of swims/jumps. One bag systems, unless treated like an expensive vase, will usually leak somewhat.
I'm not busting your chops, but here are a few things to consider: What's your rescue plan for a non-responsive rappeller 1/2 way down a double line 100' rap? If you get to a missing/damaged/nonexistent anchor midway through the canyon are you able to fix it or build a new one? Say you're stuck in Keyhole behind a slow group of 12 and people in your party are getting hypothermic, how will you handle this? Does anyone in your group have medical training? What happens if you or your belayer, or both get injured; will the others in your group be able to handle the situation? Just a few things to think about...



Thanks for the ideas on other things to bring. Those are similar to what I would bring if I'm backpacking so I guess I just need to get in that mindset a little.

To answer your other questions (and they are very much appreciated by the way as this is exactly what I want to hear):
For non-responsive rappeller, the plan would be to lower them carefully via fireman's belay. This is of course assuming they are only stuck there because of fear and not another issue. I plan to work with each of my friends to teach them how to lock off their belay device and how to use prussik loops in the event they need to lift themselves to get some leverage and correct any problems with their belay device. Do you have any other suggestions?

If there is a missing or broken anchor, I am pretty confident I can set a new one that will safely get us down. The three canyons we are entering are very well travelled and every drop is bolted so I don't anticipate any issues but I will be prepared for anything. I certainly will inspect any webbing left behind before I use it and if it looks remotely worn or damaged, I will replace it myself. I'd rather live and give up a few dollars worth of webbing.

We all plan to wear wetsuits the entire time. Since I've never used a wetsuit before, how warm do they typically stay? They should keep up warm enough in there even if we get stuck behind others right? How long do traffic jams in Keyhole (or any canyon for that matter) take to pass? I haven't given too much thought about what happens when we run into a group which I'm sure we will. Also, what is the standard courtesy if a group happens upon us setting up for a rappel. I know we are going to go slow since we are newbies. I don't want to rush at all since that is what gets you injured/killed. Are groups typically patient (to a degree) when it comes to a slow and newbie group?

I have medical training from ski patrol so I'm covered there. I haven't thought about what happens if the belayer gets injured since it will be the two of us leading the other four through the canyon. I plan to carry 100-ft of pull-line with me (barely weighs anything) so my thought would be if my belayer somehow was injured and unable to be on belay, I would tie the pull-cord to the harness of the person going down and rig up a top belay with plenty of friction. It may not be the ideal situation but it's better than no belay at all. Any suggestions for this scenario? Are there top belay techniques you can point me to?



Thanks for all of the responses everyone! I look forward to your answers. :)

[Slot Machine]

Holy macaroni! ^^THOSE^^ are quite the lists of questions! And good questions they are. :nod:

No doubt, you would get your money's worth out of a lesson or two. I highly recommend setting up a day with Zion Adventure Company, or another teaching outfit. My wife and I are self-taught (and Bogley taught), which is a time-consuming and dangerous way to learn the sport. There are more nuances than you can imagine. Literally.

I'm grateful for everything we've learned on Bogley, however, we should have spent a couple of days with an instructor. With respect, you should too.

Aaaaand welcome to Bogley! :mrgreen:

Bob

[jman]

I enjoyed reading this thread as this OP didn't make any pretense about how great he was, or how he has so much rappelling experience, etc. etc. Etc. But came with genuine beginner questions.

And nobody in turn made fun of him for being a noob, etc. It's great because he didn't let his ego get in the way, and he's getting the answers he needed. Respect to the OP and members who have responded.

Anyways, carry on! Just thought Id give credit where it's due.

[TommyBoy]

As far as letting ropes out at drops, if you can see the bottom just feed your rope through the rapide and let it down until it touches bottom then toss the bag down and voila you've only let out what you need. If you cant see the bottom then either guess at the length you need to let out and rig a lowering system to get the first man down in case you guessed wrong, or you can run a short length through the rapide block it and toss the bag so you know you have enough rope and then reset the length once one man is down. Second method is safer since you don't run the risk of rappelling off the end of your rope.

[Slot Machine]

Inmates, thank you for not spitting on the 5th graders that toured the Bogley State Correctional Facility today. Your surprising amount self-control is appreciated. The scoreboard showing the number of 'prison days without an incident' has now been changed from '0' to '1'. Congratulations.

Shucks, it's no big deal. Bogleyites are always happy to help!

Bob

[ratagonia]

Whoa! Way way way too much to respond to all at once!


Oh I see. I figured the quick-links that someone leaves behind would still be able to be opened. I guess I can't depend on that at all which makes sense. So in that case, what would be the most efficient way to deploy a double strand when you're doing short rappels? I'm just trying to understand what people typically do with a 60m rope on a short rap of let's say 30 feet. When you finish your rap, do you just quickly coil it and walk a short way to the next rap or do you pack it in the bag each time? This is the part of the canyoneering process I am totally clueless in and I'd rather figure out a technique now than before I reach the canyon.



Here's a tutorial on stuffing the rope bag. Yes, you stuff it after every rappel. The bag is most useful in DEPLOYING the rope, and cannot be used unless you stuff it back in.

http://imlaycanyongear.com/ropebags2.php

While TommyBoy's suggestions are good, he assumed a certain amount of training that you do not have.

In general, you put the end through the rapide and lower out enough rope to reach the bottom. Most times you can see, but not always. Sometimes you can hear or see the rope hit the water below.

Perhaps it is obvious, but let me restate it anyway: it is important that the rope be long enough. A clumsy way to do this is to mark the center of your rope with a Sharpie or piece of tape, and pull out till you get to that. Most of the raps in Pine Creek are less than 60 feet (all but the last one), so maybe a mark at 60 feet would be best. Go to the mark - the rope reaches. Except for the last one.

I think you can see why many canyoneers rap single line, a lot.

Your best choice for Pine Creek would be 2 x 120 foot ropes, but...

When you going?

Tom

[ilipichicuma]

As far as your larger friend goes, he'll be fine on high friction double-stranded on that rappel. I've weighed at least 250 for most of my time canyoneering and high friction double strand has always been plenty of friction on any rappel.

As far as wetsuits go, I generally just wear my regular underwear under it and have extra (in the dry bag) to change into when I'm done. Swimsuits would probably work fine. I think there's a descent percentage of people who go commando under wetsuits? I'm not sure. Also, in canyoneering, I always wear clothes over the top of my wetsuit to keep it from getting totally shredded on the sandstone. I figure the clothes I'm wearing will be a lot cheaper to replace than a wetsuit.

[Deathcricket]

great thread! You picked out some nice canyons also. I personally would swap subway for orderville, but that's just my personal preference. Not sure if you have permits yet, but spry, birch hollow, and echo are great if any of those others fall through. Definitely hit Pine Creek, that time of year it is usually full and a total blast. The last rap in Pine creek is dicey though. My Marine buddy even said it's scarier than rapping out of a helicopter when we did it last :). So if you're going to have problems, that's the one to look out for. Actually I have the footage, I'll toss it up. This is from Dec 1st last year.....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qu2KMo47VYk&feature=youtu.be

And Keyhole is a great 1 1/2 hour beginner canyon and nice to start everyone out on. Pay attention to them on an easy one like Keyhole, and you can probably notice any problems you'll have on the harder canyons and work them out ahead of time. I can tell you really did your homework, nice job. I always wear gloves, even cheap home depot ones are awesome IMO. Sandstone is highly abrasive and even doing downclimbs my hands get shredded.

I also just wear my clothes on top of my wetsuit. Would rather see my clothes destroyed than a pricey wetsuit.

Also it seems like the most common injury canyoneering wise is a twisted ankle or a badly stubbed toe. Make sure everyone has decent footwear, no sandals, and watch the slippery rocks. You guys will do fine!

[Mojave Silence]

As for the dry bag, do you think it would be a good idea to put most of my items in zip-loc bags (or another smaller drybag) if we wanted them to stay completely dry?
**A ziplock isn't really a great option by itself. Perhaps a ziplock inside of a drybag would be OK. Any kind of impact or pressure on the ziplock is going to force it open.

I'm not quite sure I understand how gloves would hinder you setting up your rope and your rappel device. I wore gloves the last few times that I was practicing and had no problems handing the equipment. Am I missing something here? Maybe you can clarify your point. :)
**Any full fingered glove is going to lessen finger dexterity somewhat, especially when cold. Maybe try the Metolius 3/4 gloves which don't cover up the finger tip. I think someone mentioned this already in this thread, but most instructors won't allow newbies to use gloves because it's important to get a grasp on rope friction and rappel speed when starting out. Generally newbies will rappel much faster when wearing gloves which gets people in trouble.
Regarding clothes, that is one part I'm trying to figure out. When you put on your wetsuit, what are you wearing underneath? ** Some people wear nothing underneath, some wear bathing suit or boxers.



For non-responsive rappeller, the plan would be to lower them carefully via fireman's belay. This is of course assuming they are only stuck there because of fear and not another issue. I plan to work with each of my friends to teach them how to lock off their belay device and how to use prussik loops in the event they need to lift themselves to get some leverage and correct any problems with their belay device. Do you have any other suggestions?
**On a double line with lots of friction, they may not move at all. What happens if the rope is looped around a leg, hair caught in a rappel device, the person is non-responsive on a ledge-mostly not weighting the rope? You may want to think about rescue with another independent line. Double line complicates rescue, single line/contingency makes it much easier to execute a rescue and is generally not putting anyone else at risk.

How long do traffic jams in Keyhole (or any canyon for that matter) take to pass? I haven't given too much thought about what happens when we run into a group which I'm sure we will. Also, what is the standard courtesy if a group happens upon us setting up for a rappel. I know we are going to go slow since we are newbies. I don't want to rush at all since that is what gets you injured/killed. Are groups typically patient (to a degree) when it comes to a slow and newbie group?
**The standard (??) protocol is to allow smaller/faster groups to pass if there is a bottleneck in a canyon. A place like keyhole on a busy weekend, it can add hours onto your day. In newbie friendly canyons (and generally in most places) people are pretty patient, everyone started as a beginner at some point. Your primary responsibility is to your group, don't let anyone/group pressure you into going faster than you want to. But if a smaller group is behind you and waiting, let them pass you. If you've already set your rope, let them use your rope if they are OK with it.
I haven't thought about what happens if the belayer gets injured since it will be the two of us leading the other four through the canyon. I plan to carry 100-ft of pull-line with me (barely weighs anything)
**What kind of pull line; diameter/ratings etc?


``

[Mojave Silence]

Anyone know why I'm not able to Multi-quote a post and separate my responses from the original post, It won't allow my to add space between the two by hitting enter.

[pikan]

Anyone know why I'm not able to Multi-quote a post and separate my responses from the original post, It won't allow my to add space between the two by hitting enter.

It's scripting code, you have to use the correct correct syntax for each individual quote.

...
when you click on "Reply With Quote" You can see the code in the editor.

[tjdowling]

You might want to do a ground-school with your friends the day before Keyhole.


People often wonder why there are bolts for the down climb before the first rap in Keyhole. I have found it to be an excellent place to practice before jumping into the canyon. You could very easily rap and then climb back up multiple times with almost zero risk.

Tim

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[ratagonia]

Holy macaroni! ^^THOSE^^ are quite the lists of questions! And good questions they are. :nod:

No doubt, you would get your money's worth out of a lesson or two. I highly recommend setting up a day with Zion Adventure Company, or another teaching outfit. My wife and I are self-taught (and Bogley taught), which is a time-consuming and dangerous way to learn the sport. There are more nuances than you can imagine. Literally.

I'm grateful for everything we've learned on Bogley, however, we should have spent a couple of days with an instructor. With respect, you should too.

Aaaaand welcome to Bogley! :mrgreen:

Bob

Still can.

T

[ratagonia]

I'm not quite sure I understand how gloves would hinder you setting up your rope and your rappel device. I wore gloves the last few times that I was practicing and had no problems handling the equipment. Am I missing something here? Maybe you can clarify your point. :)


**Any full fingered glove is going to lessen finger dexterity somewhat, especially when cold. Maybe try the Metolius 3/4 gloves which don't cover up the finger tip. I think someone mentioned this already in this thread, but most instructors won't allow newbies to use gloves because it's important to get a grasp on rope friction and rappel speed when starting out. Generally newbies will rappel much faster when wearing gloves which gets people in trouble.


Yeah, what he said. The first question is scary - Yes, you are missing something important.

Gloves always make your fingers less dexterous. Gloves that are thick get in the way of gripping the rope. Gloves that are slick mean gripping the rope makes no difference - the rope just slides through. Kaboom.

If you wore boxing gloves in the canyon, your experience would be degraded, right? Bare hands are at one end of the spectrum, and boxing gloves at the other. If you make a good choice of glove, it is close to being like bare hands.

The issue usually comes up in discussing neoprene gloves for cold wet canyons when they are especially cold and wet. But neoprene gloves (with exceptions) grip the rope poorly and are not suitable for rappelling. In Heaps late season, I wear neoprene gloves for the swims, and pull them off to rappel bare-handed.

If you tell people to bring gloves, they will bring a wide variety of gloves. Ski gloves would not work too well.

Jus' Sayin'...

:moses:

[deagol]

I may have missed it, but I would also make sure you throw some headlamps in your drybag. You don't want to need them, but if you do get caught out after dark and do need them, it would suck to not have them. Plus 1 on other's advice about no sandals, Tevas, etc. You can wear underarmour type shorts under a wetsuit as they won't bulk up and will dry quickly. You can throw abrasion protection shorts over them both with & without the wetsuit. I use knee pads and sometimes elbow pads to protect both skin and neoprene. a dry pair of socks for the hike out might also be a good idea (although dry socks would probably get soaked by wet shoes?). I did Pine Creek in June in a 3/2 wetsuit and was pretty cold. I didn't have problems with the last rap, but wanted to get the wet wetsuit off as soon as possible. I wear long pants in scrappy dry canyons, but don't think I would like long pants in a wet canyon, as went pants seem like they would inhibit freedom of movement too much. If I wanna protect my wetsuit in a scrappy wet canyon, I think knee/elbow pads and shorts would probably be OK.

[Aj84737]

If I remember right Tom mentioned in his book that the blue atlas gloves are a good choice.Idk if he still feels that way, but that is all I use now. Sure they only last a couple of canyons, but I can get them for 2 bucks a pair at my work. They are not that thick but give you a pretty good grip on the rope. Also pretty good for stemming and downclimbing.

[hank moon]

The Atlas (Latex-dipped) gloves last a lot longer if not used for rappelling.

[ratagonia]

If I remember right Tom mentioned in his book that the blue atlas gloves are a good choice.Idk if he still feels that way, but that is all I use now. Sure they only last a couple of canyons, but I can get them for 2 bucks a pair at my work. They are not that thick but give you a pretty good grip on the rope. Also pretty good for stemming and downclimbing.

Nope.

I think the blue-palmed ones are WAY too sticky, and are very difficult to rappel with.

I use the Thermofits which have a grey palm and are less sticky, and work pretty well. I sell em for 6$ a pair, but you might be able to get them cheaper elsewhere. But, I stand by that taking beginners, bare hands are your best bet.

Tom

[deagol]

somewhat off-topic, but I went spearfishing for invasive Lionfish (http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2013/07/lionfish_invasion_the_invasive_fish_are_eating_so_ many_native_species_that.html)in the Caribbean in April. The fish have long spines filled with dangerous neurotoxin. The "lionfish-proof gloves" are none other than the blue latex Atlas gloves. I never did have to put them to the test, though ....

[Ecegatorturo]

I don't check back in two days and I have a ton of replies! You guys are awesome! :) I'll reply back to each of you now. Thanks for all of your help everyone.

[Ecegatorturo]

Whoa! Way way way too much to respond to all at once!

Here's a tutorial on stuffing the rope bag. Yes, you stuff it after every rappel. The bag is most useful in DEPLOYING the rope, and cannot be used unless you stuff it back in.

---

While TommyBoy's suggestions are good, he assumed a certain amount of training that you do not have.

In general, you put the end through the rapide and lower out enough rope to reach the bottom. Most times you can see, but not always. Sometimes you can hear or see the rope hit the water below.

Perhaps it is obvious, but let me restate it anyway: it is important that the rope be long enough. A clumsy way to do this is to mark the center of your rope with a Sharpie or piece of tape, and pull out till you get to that. Most of the raps in Pine Creek are less than 60 feet (all but the last one), so maybe a mark at 60 feet would be best. Go to the mark - the rope reaches. Except for the last one.

I think you can see why many canyoneers rap single line, a lot.

Your best choice for Pine Creek would be 2 x 120 foot ropes, but...

When you going?

Tom

Thanks for the link. My friend showed me how to load the rope bag and it pretty much matched what that link showed so I'm glad that the information at least is the same. :)

I never thought that most of the rappels would be visible to the bottom so that makes things easier. If I can't see the bottom, then it would just make sense to just deploy the entire rope anyway to ensure that it reaches. Better safe than sorry right?

We definitely will have a long enough rope to double-rope all of our planned descents. The rope is marked in the center already. I'm carrying a 60m so that should be just enough to do the last rap in Pine Creek. I will personally measure it though because I read a post here earlier of some guy that fell off the end of his rope because his 60m rope happened to be only 190 feet (not sure how that can happen).

I like the idea of single rope but I feel uncomfortable as a newbie since I have little experience setting up blocks plus you also lose the extra rope of friction. Hopefully some day I will get to that point! Right now, I'm strictly going for simplicity and you can't get any simpler than double rope. :)

[Ecegatorturo]

As far as your larger friend goes, he'll be fine on high friction double-stranded on that rappel. I've weighed at least 250 for most of my time canyoneering and high friction double strand has always been plenty of friction on any rappel.

As far as wetsuits go, I generally just wear my regular underwear under it and have extra (in the dry bag) to change into when I'm done. Swimsuits would probably work fine. I think there's a descent percentage of people who go commando under wetsuits? I'm not sure. Also, in canyoneering, I always wear clothes over the top of my wetsuit to keep it from getting totally shredded on the sandstone. I figure the clothes I'm wearing will be a lot cheaper to replace than a wetsuit.

Ok sounds good. I think I'm a little more at ease about that last drop in Pine Creek then. I may throw on a second caribiner just for piece of mind but I'll test him out when we practice at my house before our trip.

Thanks for the wetsuit info! I was completely clueless about it so this helps. By the way, Dick's Sporting Goods is having an online sale of their wetsuits. They are all 50% off so go check it out! I just ordered a full wetsuit yesterday. :)

[Ecegatorturo]

great thread! You picked out some nice canyons also. I personally would swap subway for orderville, but that's just my personal preference. Not sure if you have permits yet, but spry, birch hollow, and echo are great if any of those others fall through. Definitely hit Pine Creek, that time of year it is usually full and a total blast. The last rap in Pine creek is dicey though. My Marine buddy even said it's scarier than rapping out of a helicopter when we did it last :). So if you're going to have problems, that's the one to look out for. Actually I have the footage, I'll toss it up. This is from Dec 1st last year.....

---

And Keyhole is a great 1 1/2 hour beginner canyon and nice to start everyone out on. Pay attention to them on an easy one like Keyhole, and you can probably notice any problems you'll have on the harder canyons and work them out ahead of time. I can tell you really did your homework, nice job. I always wear gloves, even cheap home depot ones are awesome IMO. Sandstone is highly abrasive and even doing downclimbs my hands get shredded.

I also just wear my clothes on top of my wetsuit. Would rather see my clothes destroyed than a pricey wetsuit.

Also it seems like the most common injury canyoneering wise is a twisted ankle or a badly stubbed toe. Make sure everyone has decent footwear, no sandals, and watch the slippery rocks. You guys will do fine!

I already got the permits for everything so we are somewhat locked in. I will keep those others in mind for a later trip though so thanks for the info! After watching your video, that last rap is crazy but awesome! It's a little awkward too from the looks of it. One question though... I keep reading that the bolts for the last rap are on a ledge of some sort. Is this ledge obvious when you approach it? I imagine you would want to tie off somewhere for safety but where can you tie off before walking on this ledge? How did you guys do it? I saw you had some sort of webbing linked together from the bolt but you still have to get to the bolt itself. How did you get there to hook up your safety?




Yeah, what he said. The first question is scary - Yes, you are missing something important.

Gloves always make your fingers less dexterous. Gloves that are thick get in the way of gripping the rope. Gloves that are slick mean gripping the rope makes no difference - the rope just slides through. Kaboom.

If you wore boxing gloves in the canyon, your experience would be degraded, right? Bare hands are at one end of the spectrum, and boxing gloves at the other. If you make a good choice of glove, it is close to being like bare hands.

The issue usually comes up in discussing neoprene gloves for cold wet canyons when they are especially cold and wet. But neoprene gloves (with exceptions) grip the rope poorly and are not suitable for rappelling. In Heaps late season, I wear neoprene gloves for the swims, and pull them off to rappel bare-handed.

If you tell people to bring gloves, they will bring a wide variety of gloves. Ski gloves would not work too well.

Jus' Sayin'...

:moses:

That's a valid point. The gloves that I have are supposed to be for canyoneering/climbing. They are mesh-like on top and leather on the bottom with an extra patch of leather across the palm where the rope would go. I've used them a few times when practicing and I haven't had many issues getting things hooked up but I understand what you mean about losing some dexterity. I have a couple of sets of gloves that my canyoneering friend lent me that I could give to my friends so that would at least reduce the chances of someone bringing boxing gloves (or ski gloves for that matter). ;)



I may have missed it, but I would also make sure you throw some headlamps in your drybag. You don't want to need them, but if you do get caught out after dark and do need them, it would suck to not have them. Plus 1 on other's advice about no sandals, Tevas, etc. You can wear underarmour type shorts under a wetsuit as they won't bulk up and will dry quickly. You can throw abrasion protection shorts over them both with & without the wetsuit. I use knee pads and sometimes elbow pads to protect both skin and neoprene. a dry pair of socks for the hike out might also be a good idea (although dry socks would probably get soaked by wet shoes?). I did Pine Creek in June in a 3/2 wetsuit and was pretty cold. I didn't have problems with the last rap, but wanted to get the wet wetsuit off as soon as possible. I wear long pants in scrappy dry canyons, but don't think I would like long pants in a wet canyon, as went pants seem like they would inhibit freedom of movement too much. If I wanna protect my wetsuit in a scrappy wet canyon, I think knee/elbow pads and shorts would probably be OK.

Very good point! We will definitely have headlamps with us. We plan to rent 5.10 Canyoneers/neoprene socks from ZAC. I can't even imagine people wearing sandals in a canyon!! People do this?! I also have some compression shorts that I wear underneath my chamois shorts for mountain biking so thanks for that idea.

[ratagonia]

We definitely will have a long enough rope to double-rope all of our planned descents. The rope is marked in the center already. I'm carrying a 60m so that should be just enough to do the last rap in Pine Creek. I will personally measure it though because I read a post here earlier of some guy that fell off the end of his rope because his 60m rope happened to be only 190 feet (not sure how that can happen).


USED to be very close to 100 feet, now it is more like 90. The floor moved up.




I like the idea of single rope but I feel uncomfortable as a newbie since I have little experience setting up blocks plus you also lose the extra rope of friction. Hopefully some day I will get to that point! Right now, I'm strictly going for simplicity and you can't get any simpler than double rope. :)

Smart move... :2thumbs:

Tom

[deagol]

...........
.... The gloves that I have are supposed to be for canyoneering/climbing. They are mesh-like on top and leather on the bottom with an extra patch of leather across the palm where the rope would go.......

..... I can't even imagine people wearing sandals in a canyon!! People do this?!...The gloves you mention sound a lot like rappelling gloves (like the Petzel ones I have). The leather palms are good for handling rope when it is moving through your hands during a long rappel, but they can get in the way of dexterity when rigging things. My rap gloves are used only to rap and I don't wear gloves while rigging stuff. I also would not wear them when traveling through the canyons, as the sandstone would abrade the leather too much. I carry the "gardening type cheap gloves" mentioned here for hand protection against the sandstone and swap them out for the leather gloves for rappelling. The leather rap gloves also go in a small drybag for times when I have to go in the water, as the water isn't good for the leather. As far as people wearing Tevas and/or sandals: I've seen it and heard about it, especially in Zion. I've also heard about a few guys who used those "five fingers" Vibram shoes in canyons and swore they would never do that again.

[ratagonia]

I already got the permits for everything so we are somewhat locked in. I will keep those others in mind for a later trip though so thanks for the info! After watching your video, that last rap is crazy but awesome! It's a little awkward too from the looks of it.


One question though... I keep reading that the bolts for the last rap are on a ledge of some sort. Is this ledge obvious when you approach it? I imagine you would want to tie off somewhere for safety but where can you tie off before walking on this ledge? How did you guys do it? I saw you had some sort of webbing linked together from the bolt but you still have to get to the bolt itself. How did you get there to hook up your safety?


You can change your permit without paying more money, if the opportunity is available. Just ask. Gotta be the same day, though, but you can change the canyon and the number.

2nd part - uh, yeah, uh, this is something you should go over with your climbing friend. What do you do if an anchor needs to be re-rigged? Or you need to set up a safety line (like YES YOU DO at the last rappel, and sometimes at the Cathedral especially with beginners, and at the first rappel too).

Tom

[Ecegatorturo]

The gloves you mention sound a lot like rappelling gloves (like the Petzel ones I have). The leather palms are good for handling rope when it is moving through your hands during a long rappel, but they can get in the way of dexterity when rigging things. My rap gloves are used only to rap and I don't wear gloves while rigging stuff. I also would not wear them when traveling through the canyons, as the sandstone would abrade the leather too much. I carry the "gardening type cheap gloves" mentioned here for hand protection against the sandstone and swap them out for the leather gloves for rappelling. The leather rap gloves also go in a small drybag for times when I have to go in the water, as the water isn't good for the leather. As far as people wearing Tevas and/or sandals: I've seen it and heard about it, especially in Zion. I've also heard about a few guys who used those "five fingers" Vibram shoes in canyons and swore they would never do that again.

I think that's exactly what they are. :) My friend's gloves are all some brand I can't remember the name of at the moment but hey are three letters. They are constructed very similarly with the extra patch of leather in the rope path. I'll make it a point to only wear them to rap and not to set up as not to lose dexterity. I didn't think about the sandstone really ruining the gloves too much when travelling through the canyon. Good advice!


You can change your permit without paying more money, if the opportunity is available. Just ask. Gotta be the same day, though, but you can change the canyon and the number.

2nd part - uh, yeah, uh, this is something you should go over with your climbing friend. What do you do if an anchor needs to be re-rigged? Or you need to set up a safety line (like YES YOU DO at the last rappel, and sometimes at the Cathedral especially with beginners, and at the first rappel too).

Tom

I am pretty confident at re-rigging some webbing at a bolt anchor if necessary. I was just curious about setting up a safety line at the last Pine Creek rappel. Where do you tie your safety line into? Is there another bolt or canyon feature you can tie into before going out on that ledge to set up your rope? I can't seem to find any information on that when I've searched for it. All the beta just says that the rappel bolts are on a ledge and to set up a safety line but nobody says WHERE to tie that safety line into. I'm guessing the situation will be obvious when I see it for myself in person.

How do the bolts in the Cathedral look? I saw somewhere that there was some chain involved? Is the bolt station exposed enough to warrant a safety line when setting up? Again, I'm assuming this will all be obvious when I get there and see it but I just like to know what I'm getting into ahead of time.

[Deathcricket]

. I keep reading that the bolts for the last rap are on a ledge of some sort. Is this ledge obvious when you approach it? I imagine you would want to tie off somewhere for safety but where can you tie off before walking on this ledge? How did you guys do it? I saw you had some sort of webbing linked together from the bolt but you still have to get to the bolt itself. How did you get there to hook up your safety?


There is a little mini arch I guess you could wrap some webbing around to get you to the edge for safety. but it's better to just scurry to the edge and latch in I think. The last rap is a little hard to find. stay on the left and pass the huge hole, walk across some logs, climb the rockface to the left, and come down the other side of the grotto. You'll figure it out though, not "that" hard to locate.

Have a great trip! You're gonna have a blast!

[TommyBoy]

The last rap isn't bad but it can feel scary for newb. My first time there I felt like I was leaning way out over the drop and was more than a little freaked then I came back after a year and my first thought was who moved the bolts closer!

[ratagonia]

There is a little mini arch I guess you could wrap some webbing around to get you to the edge for safety. but it's better to just scurry to the edge and latch in I think. The last rap is a little hard to find. stay on the left and pass the huge hole, walk across some logs, climb the rockface to the left, and come down the other side of the grotto. You'll figure it out though, not to hard to locate.

Have a great trip! You're gonna have a blast!

I think it is easier to safety off to the little arch and manage from there rather than have two people and two ropes hooked all into the same anchor.

"I am pretty confident..."

Yeah? We had a guy in Moab this spring who was pretty confident. Good thing was, when his knot fell apart it was HIM on the rope rather than someone else who died. I hope you are just being conversationally polite here, and you really honestly 100% know how to tie knots and rig webbing - because less than 100% doesn't really count.

Tom

[Deathcricket]

The last rap isn't bad but it can feel scary for newb. My first time there I felt like I was leaning way out over the drop and was more than a little freaked then I came back after a year and my first thought was who moved the bolts closer!

too funny. IMO the 2 scariest raps in Zion are the last rap in pine creek and the last rap in Behuinin. Err wait no, lodge canyon.. ok top 5 scariest raps for sure, haha. :2thumbs:

It's like such and akward start swinging out on to that ledge. Still freaks me out every time I go. :eek2:

[Ecegatorturo]

I think it is easier to safety off to the little arch and manage from there rather than have two people and two ropes hooked all into the same anchor.

So this arch you speak of is in an easy to tie off location? Once you tie off, then I would just go up the ledge everyone speaks of and tie off the rope to the bolt station?


"I am pretty confident..."

Yeah? We had a guy in Moab this spring who was pretty confident. Good thing was, when his knot fell apart it was HIM on the rope rather than someone else who died. I hope you are just being conversationally polite here, and you really honestly 100% know how to tie knots and rig webbing - because less than 100% doesn't really count.

Tom

Wow. That's really sad. What was the problem with how he tied the webbing? Did they ever determine that?

From what I've been told by my friend and from what I've been reading and what I've seen online, this is my understanding:
There are usually two bolts in the rock face. After verifying that they are secure and not crumbling out of the rock, I would attach a webbing loop on each of them. The webbing loops would be created by typing a properly dressed water knot (which I have tied before from my previous ski patrol training) with at least 3-4" of tail on both sides. These two webbing loops (now looped through the bolt hangers) are then tied together with a single rapide and that is where I would feed the rope through.

Let me know if I'm incorrect in any way. This is exactly why I'm posting here so I definitely welcome any advice or criticism. :)

The other related question to this is how do you determine if the existing webbing is in good enough condition? I'd imagine ANY frays on the webbing would definitely be a warning sign to change it out but what about faded webbing. Sunlight fades and eventually wears the webbing down but what is an accessible level of fading? In other words, what warning signs besides obvious fraying are you using to determine if webbing needs to be replaced?

[ratagonia]

Let me know if I'm incorrect in any way. This is exactly why I'm posting here so I definitely welcome any advice or criticism. :)

The other related question to this is how do you determine if the existing webbing is in good enough condition? I'd imagine ANY frays on the webbing would definitely be a warning sign to change it out but what about faded webbing. Sunlight fades and eventually wears the webbing down but what is an accessible level of fading? In other words, what warning signs besides obvious fraying are you using to determine if webbing needs to be replaced?

It's great that you bring a lot of questions to the forum, to the world, to your upcoming adventure.

In ten minutes, person to person, it would be really clear what your skill level is, whether you have the right stuff to lead your friends on this trip.

But via the interwebs, very hard to say, either way.

Not sure if you have read all this, and practiced, and have it down:

http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/techtips/water-knot-webbing-anchor/

Sooooooooooooo....

Just gotta say, MY evaluation of various incidents is: Don't be a beginner led by a beginner!

We don't know what happened with the kid in Moab. The webbing he (apparently) tied around a tree parted as he rappelled last - he fell quite a ways and was dead.

Again - what day you going? You want some help? If I'm in town, I think I would be up for helping out, if you want.

Tom :moses:

[hank moon]

Just gotta say, MY evaluation of various incidents is: Don't be a beginner led by a beginner!

X2

[Ecegatorturo]

It's great that you bring a lot of questions to the forum, to the world, to your upcoming adventure.

In ten minutes, person to person, it would be really clear what your skill level is, whether you have the right stuff to lead your friends on this trip.

But via the interwebs, very hard to say, either way.

Not sure if you have read all this, and practiced, and have it down:

http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/techtips/water-knot-webbing-anchor/

Sooooooooooooo....

Just gotta say, MY evaluation of various incidents is: Don't be a beginner led by a beginner!

We don't know what happened with the kid in Moab. The webbing he (apparently) tied around a tree parted as he rappelled last - he fell quite a ways and was dead.

Again - what day you going? You want some help? If I'm in town, I think I would be up for helping out, if you want.

Tom :moses:

I completely understand what you mean. :) I saw that page a few weeks ago and it pretty much falls in line with what I've practiced before when I used to do ski patrol (as far as tying water knots with webbing).

I guess my worry is that even though I know the mechanics of setting up the anchor and rappelling (and have practiced it quite a bit), it's still an entirely new experience travelling through a canyon. Since I haven't had the opportunity of trying this yet, naturally there is a degree of anxiety but everyone has this their first time through I'm sure.

I've appreciated everyone's input in here! You guys have been nothing but extremely helpful and informative and it's definitely given me some confidence in validating that what I have done is correct so far but also reaffirming my concerns about being a beginner.

We are hitting up Keyhole and Pine Creek on 9/19 and Subway on 9/20. I may be interested in some help if you're around and willing. Where are you based out of? Springdale? We plan to do some backpacking on the West Rim trail on the two days prior (9/17-9/18) and then we will be camping at Watchman the night of the 18th. Shoot me a PM if you want and we can talk some more. Thanks again for all of your help! :2thumbs:

[pikan]

I've appreciated everyone's input in here! You guys have been nothing but extremely helpful and informative and it's definitely given me some confidence in validating that what I have done is correct so far but also reaffirming my concerns about being a beginner.
:2thumbs:
X2 - I have benefitted GREATLY from this thread!!! :nod:

[ratagonia]

I completely understand what you mean. :) I saw that page a few weeks ago and it pretty much falls in line with what I've practiced before when I used to do ski patrol (as far as tying water knots with webbing).

I guess my worry is that even though I know the mechanics of setting up the anchor and rappelling (and have practiced it quite a bit), it's still an entirely new experience travelling through a canyon. Since I haven't had the opportunity of trying this yet, naturally there is a degree of anxiety but everyone has this their first time through I'm sure.

I've appreciated everyone's input in here! You guys have been nothing but extremely helpful and informative and it's definitely given me some confidence in validating that what I have done is correct so far but also reaffirming my concerns about being a beginner.

We are hitting up Keyhole and Pine Creek on 9/19 and Subway on 9/20. I may be interested in some help if you're around and willing. Where are you based out of? Springdale? We plan to do some backpacking on the West Rim trail on the two days prior (9/17-9/18) and then we will be camping at Watchman the night of the 18th. Shoot me a PM if you want and we can talk some more. Thanks again for all of your help! :2thumbs:

Already doing Keyhole and Pine Creek on 9-19. Hmmmm, I'm sure we can work something out.

Tom