Death in Birch Hollow

[Iceaxe]

Woman dies in rappelling fall in Zion National Park

BY ERIN ALBERTY - THE SALT LAKE TRIBUNE
PUBLISHED: AUGUST 19, 2013

A West Jordan woman died after falling 120 feet while rappelling near Zion National Park.

Shelby Collette Christensen, 19, was hiking and rappelling with a group of five about 9:30 a.m. in Birch Hollow. Three others in the group had finished the rappel and were waiting at the bottom as Christensen began her descent over the ledge.

She apparently got her hand trapped between the rope and the rock ledge and let go, Kane County sheriff’s deputies wrote in a news statement.

She fell 120 feet to the canyon floor, deputies wrote.

A deputy and a Utah State Park ranger from the Coral Pink Sand Dunes met with other members of the rappelling group; the park ranger found Christensen had died at the scene. Her body was removed via helicopter.

Birch Hollow is a popular canyoneering destination with several rappels between scenic hiking. It is about 6 miles north of State Road 9 just East of Zion National Park. Two other people have been injured rappelling there this summer. The first two happened one day apart at a different rappel. Both required a technical rescue by teams from Kane County Search and Rescue, Zion National Park, and the BLM to raise the victims to an area where they could be picked up by helicopter.

[Taylor]

Just saw this on ksl. So sad for her family and friends. So avoidable with a couple of easy precautions. Where was the bottom belay? Three friends down already, nobody grabs the rope? Senseless.

[Iceaxe]

So avoidable with a couple of easy precautions. Where was the bottom belay? Three friends down already, nobody grabs the rope? Senseless.

That was my thoughts exactly.



Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[Bootboy]

Dammit. A life lost because a few people took it upon themselves to lead the blind as the blind and failed to realize the potential dangers involved and prepare accordingly. This shit is going to continue to happen as the "sport" becomes more popular. This is what happens when someone "knows hardcore hike in Zion's". This is what I dread and what I have eluded too in the past about being careful who we market this activity too. It spreads out of control and before long, a totally avoidable tragedy like this ends up getting sprayed on the news, piquing the curiosity of hoards of other would-be canyoneers, who in turn get in over their heads, get hurt, trash the place and get restrictions imposed for the rest of us who have taken it upon ourselves to enjoy it responsibly from the start. It's all going to end up this way. You just feel so helpless about being able to avoid this train wreck as it unfolds before us.
What a terrible waste of a life, all for what?

[oldno7]

condolences to her family and friends...

[ghawk]

So unfortunate and, from what the news indicates so far, seems like it could have been easily avoidable if precautions had been taken. Condolences to the family and to all those involved.

[jman]

We should be careful in harsh judgement of the group - we don't know all the details. But, I do think we all agree that a bottom belay (always for noobs) would of prevented this. Maybe the other 3 men were taking pictures/videos? I dunno.

At the very least if you are going to post something try to show some class and respect for a family who lost their daughter. I agree though, it's way too young to go.

[Mountaineer]

Horrible. Very tragic. My best friend lost her daughter in a skiing accident, and I can only compare what this family is going through now.

My thoughts and prayers go out to the family and friends.

Lots of questions. So easy to use your other hand to hold the rope or grab the ledge. Why no bottom belay? Was she the most experienced in the group? Or, how much experience did she have prior?

It seems Birch is seeing a lot of accidents. Why?

[Steevo]

I have only canyoneered with a select group of people. So, I don't know what "everyone else does" but I see a lot of weak belay techniques on canyoneering videos. I personally have had the rope ripped right out of my hand on bottom belay on more than one occasion. I take my kids regularly. I have an 8 year old that raps over 100 feet regularly on her own. When on belay, I belay like a climber with the rope attached to my harness and in the rappel device, dishing out the rope as it is needed. In so cal the granite gets really, really slippery and it is really easy to fall and loose the rope.
Just my two cents.
Prayers to the family.

[mzamp]

That drop has a lot of rockfall danger. It might be the reason for no bottom belay, but I am just speculating.

condolences to her family and friends :sad:

[Slot Machine]

Sad and unfortunate. It's somewhat surprising that enough speed could be generated, while on rappel, to cause a fatality from that height. What negligent teammates. Yikes.


This is what I dread and what I have eluded too in the past about being careful who we market this activity too.

Since when did we start marketing to a target audience? How should we be careful about this alleged marketing? :ne_nau: Please explain.

Any fun, scenic, exciting, social way to pass the time is going to spread rapidly by word-of-mouth. Canyoneering is no exception. Just like climbing, or skydiving with a squirrel suit, the responsibility lies with the user.

[xxnitsuaxx]

Bootboy - exactly who do you believe ought to be able to canyoneer? I've seen enough posts where you rail against the "tourons" who ruin "your" canyons and outdoor spaces. Who deserves to enjoy the canyons? You? Only people born in Utah? What sort of barriers to entry would you like to erect to keep your canyons exclusive?

[Iceaxe]

It seems Birch is seeing a lot of accidents. Why?

Several reasons.... High traffic canyon, noob friendly canyon, noobs leading noobs, lack of Zion permits.

Beginner canyons always have a higher percentage of accidents because that is where we keep the beginners.

:popcorn:

[Deathcricket]

Dat sucks... Especially since she wasn't the 1st down and someone couldda belayed her safely. Bummer news.

[Scott Card]

lack of Zion permits.



You did NOT just say that! :facepalm1:

[flatiron]

Several reasons.... High traffic canyon, noob friendly canyon, noobs leading noobs,


:popcorn:

Previous accidents were 1) noob simul - rapping 2) noob 1st person rappelling. Only way that should EVER happen is if whole group is noobs. It might not be wise to simul rap with noob anytime unless with backup safety, ya think? But hey everyone was once a noob - can't really stop inexperienced people from getting into trouble if they insist on going alone, whether on land, sea, or air. Hopefully they would ask for advice and help and go cautious. But what is the responsibility of those experienced who lead or take along noobs? This seems to go on an awful lot. Even in these meetup groups. Last year I met 2 experienced friends at NoWash who had been there few days early doing canyons with the NoWash Rend group. Their description was an accident waiting to happen. Disorganized - no vetting of people to at least know who is capable of what, etc. One time a guy who did not even know how to put on a harness was lead along on trip. Really??? The former, noobs going it alone, can only be mitigated - you cannot stop or even outlaw. And we have seen unfortunately several accidents and/or deaths. Just so sad. But latter goes on wayyyy too often. This can and maybe should be addressed- it's the tricky part because now I/we have to take responsibility. I view it in a positive light- we are partners going thru canyons and just like we assist each other out of potholes we do the same with safe actions. Any partner can call me out and likewise - it soon becomes 2nd nature.

[Iceaxe]

You did NOT just say that! :facepalm1:

I know some of the Zion area accidents/SAR's are the result of canyoneers getting pushed into canyons beyond their skill and/or preparation level (technically, physically, navigationally) because of lack of permits. I'm not saying that was a factor in this particular accident, but I know it has been a factor in other Zion area accidents and SAR's, which was the question asked.

:soapbox:

[Bootboy]

Bootboy - exactly who do you believe ought to be able to canyoneer?

Lets start with people who know what the hell they're doing.

Like you've got all the answers to this inevitability....

[KentC]

I'm saddened by someone dying recreating in a beautiful area (Birch Hollow). Like others who have already commented; I too, wonder why there was not a bottom belay. I consider myself an experienced canyoneer and the group I do canyons with are all experienced, also. Even experienced canyoneers make mistakes i.e. the death that occurred on the last rappel in Heaps a few years ago. In my group after the first person is down, he sets up a belay for the rest of the group. Easy to do and it just makes sense. One last comment: A permit system would not have prevented this since the Park Service doesn't ask nor does it care about experience before issuing a permit. Buyer Beware!

[phinux]

One thing for all of us to remember is that canyoneering doesn't allow a large margin for error. As human beings we're inclined to make little mistakes, but canyoneering just isn't forgiving of such mistakes. Think about driving a car, especially when you were just beginning. Being in reverse instead of forward and dinging someones bumper. Panicking and hitting the accelerator instead of the brake. Mis-judging distance or conditions and side-swiping someone else. But in cars we have a lot of protection.

Perhaps it's all the worse because people can go canyoneering without reading a manual or getting in some good training with an experienced canyoneer. All of us who have experience can use these accidents and tragedies to remind ourselves not to get cocky. And maybe we can be more willing to share our knowledge with people who are starting out. We all love canyoneering, so it shouldn't be hard to see why others would want to get into it. Here's to getting good training, helping others stay safe, and taking nothing for granted.

[SRG]

This is so sad and tragic. Condolences to the family, I can't imagine what you're going through.

[mferl]

I too am saddened by such a terrible loss when from all accounts this accident could have been avoided. My thoughts are with her family.
One of the first things I learned about canyoneering was "backup on rappel". I may seem slow to some of the pros out there, but at the end of the day, I want to go home in one piece.
I hope this serves as a reminder to everyone how important safety is.

[Deuce]

Unfortunately, this was the daughter of friends from HS. I do not know the details, nor have any answers to questions. I know they are dealing with grief that words cannot fathom. I ache for them.

[Byron]

Looks like this brought out some new members, welcome to all of you and phinux, excellent post.

I've been canyoneering and rappelling for a long time. I've been around plenty of noobs, and the one thing I've noticed that they have in common is the START. It seems that once they get a few feet from the edge, they're good to go. But getting going is where all the herky jerkey movements occur.

It may take some people 10 or 50 raps to get comfortable and dial it in. If you have a partner that just "isn't there" yet, then a belay should be a matter of course. Folks need to slow down a bit, too.

[Scott P]

I'm thinking the chances that Birch Hollow will be under a permit system soon are increasing every day.

[jman]

I'm thinking the chances that Birch Hollow will be under a permit system soon are increasing every day.

Suppose it did - I assume the BLM would manage it? But where would their office be? the BLM's office is in St. George on the main Riverdale Road. Heck of a drive, for a permit.

But then again...a permit isn't going to in any way shape or form, increase a person's safety. Perhaps discourage them to do the route because they didn't pull a permit? I dunno...but I agree Scott, I could see it going this way too far to easily now.

Yay for regulation! Yay for liberalism ideals! i mean...not yay.:facepalm1: Personal accountability. And self-proclaimed leaders are getting way over their heads when it comes to leading others. I know people who tell other beginners that canyons such as Imlay and Heaps Canyon are "super fun" and "a little challenging", but they say it from their perspective as a rock-climber that can easily do 5.11 and 5.12s. They forget to break it down, or rather become empathatic and try to look at the sport and canyons through their eyes and not a 5.12 climber's eyes.

I think it's a good reminder to all of us that we when we explain the technical aspect of the canyons that we need overemphasize or explain clearly the difficulties, and not just "epic". It should be "this canyon is DANGEROUS, there are many potholes that can be 4-10feet below the lip and that you better know how to climb-out of or escape, with hours upon hours of exposure to frigid water, with a early hike-in and late hike out, and you have to be swift, with everyone in the group being proficient in rappelling, etc....etc.." and not just some definition of "hella fun".

Noobs will see the latter description and think, oh yeah, rappelling isn't hard, it's just walking backwards off a cliff. But then they don't know any better about awkward starts or scary ledges to cross before you can rappel, etc.

Hmm...maybe we should start a thread titled "awkward rappel starts" and put a few pics and the canyon name, and explain the "best way" down em, etc???? Just to get noobs minds a thinkin' and preparing.

[mdd]

I'm saddened but not shocked that everyone is piling on to this poor women's partners for not providing a fireman's belay. I would think before you sling blame around, especially if friends of the victim start reading this. Unfortunately a fireman's belay is not the great panacea that a lot of canyoneers seem to think it is. To wit:

1) Nowhere in any published accounts of this accident so far (at least that I have seen) is there mention that no fireman's belay was performed. Or, there may have been legitimate reasons for not having one in this location (such as loose rock).

2) There are legitimate questions on the effectiveness of fireman's belays. For more reading, see this testing done by cavers (http://www.caves.org/section/vertical/nh/49/bottblay.html).

3) Very, very few canyoneers have received training on fireman's belays, or caught a simulated fall using a fireman's belay, because simulated falls are notoriously difficult to stage safely. I think many that would try this might be surprised to find that it isn't as easy to catch someone falling using a fireman's belay as they might think it is. There is a lot more involved than "just pull the rope tight". Things aren't so black and white.

4) In my experience, most canyoneers don't know how to perform an adequate fireman's belay anyway. I can't count how many people I've seen giving these sorts of belays incorrectly. It's rare that I've seen it done right. Check out this photo (http://www.zionmountainschool.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/DC_Edit_Canyon_1_Lowres1-1024x887.jpg), from a website of a Zion-based company offering canyoneering courses, which illustrates how most people give these belays. Note that she is making at least three technique mistakes that I can see, each of which inhibits her ability to perform an adequate fireman's belay. Any guesses?

[Jolly Green]

I can't imagine watching someone fall like that with the aftermath. I work in the Emergency Dept and frequently hear stories from paramedics of people who see an accident or a serious medical event and freeze up even though they know basic ways they can help. My condolences to everyone involved, especially those who were there. I have a friend who required a rescue from the Zion SAR team years ago and he turned that into motivation to improve rather than walking away at a low moment.

I agree that there's little that can be done for noobs who see a cool picture of a canyon, read how to rappel, and set out for an epic adventure. As someone who frequently goes out with different groups, often with noobs, this is a great reminder that I am the one that is taking responsibility for the group. I know the risks of canyoneering and am assuming those risks for myself and everyone I lead when I go out. While there is no way to prepare for every possible situation, if you are going to lead somebody through a canyon, please do more to prepare than simply taking a basic canyoneering course. Go through several canyons with people who know what they are doing and let them teach you.

[Brian in SLC]

Sad, tragic event. My condolences to friends and family.

[Brian in SLC]

Curious if this accident was at the big open dry fall?

From Tom's beta:

Walk the watercourse. An hour of interesting canyon hiking with just a bit of brush leads to a 120-foot drop. Rappel this using a block or tree. (Do not add to the erosion by taking the nasty trail around the side). Be very careful of loose rock on this rappel - might be best to set up a guided rappel.

***

R1: Rappel 120 feet (40 m) off a block or tree. Be careful of loose rock, and of the sharp, unstable talus at the bottom of the rappel.

Hike downcanyon. In a few minutes, the logging road approach joins the canyon, and the second big drop becomes apparent.

R2: Rappel 90 feet (30m) off a block or tree. Be careful of loose rock, and of the sharp, unstable talus at the bottom of the rappel.

Continue hiking downcanyon. The main narrows section is soon reached.

Hmmm. I dimly recall we walked around that and the second dry fall, and, rapped in when there was a canyon.

Shane's beta:

Soon the ATV track is stopped by a 100-foot dryfall. This is bypassed on the west (left) side. Continue hiking down canyon and you will encounter a 75-foot dryfall, which can be rappelled or bypassed on the west (left) side. The bypass has some exposure.

I'm all for avoiding erosion on nasty trails, but, these spots look bad for rappelling with all the loose rock. Perhaps a reconsideration of eliminating these rappels in the future in route descriptions will help prevent a few accidents?

I'd rather see a better social trail (less erosion and nasty) as a viable alternative than these types of junky, loose dryfall non canyon type rappel locations.

We did the walk around in April '02, Shane (which I wouldn't recall had I not had notes). Seem to recall Bees borrowing his wife's hat, and, you borrowing your wife's truck...

IMHO, part of "gettin' some skills" is knowing when its safer to just walk around a junky rappel. Judgment call for sure. When folks have a hammer, they look for nails...

Anyhoo, sad event. Heavy sigh...

Be safe out there.

[Aj84737]

To me it sounds like it had to be at the first big dryfall. That's the only drop that's close to 120 feet. There is a pretty well defined trail around it. I think most people bypass it because of the rock fall potential.

[Iceaxe]

Yup... we walked around the first two raps in 2002. Falling rocks and sketchy rappels didn't appeal to any of us.

A picture of the first rappel/walk around appeared in one of the very first news reports, but I believe it was a stock photo and not the actual group that had issues.

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[Bootboy]

To me it sounds like it had to be at the first big dryfall. That's the only drop that's close to 120 feet. There is a pretty well defined trail around it. I think most people bypass it because of the rock fall potential.

If you go to the right, there is a 40' rap with a better start as well. That's the route I've always taken.

[oldno7]

I'm saddened but not shocked that everyone is piling on to this poor women's partners for not providing a fireman's belay. I would think before you sling blame around, especially if friends of the victim start reading this. Unfortunately a fireman's belay is not the great panacea that a lot of canyoneers seem to think it is. To wit:

1) Nowhere in any published accounts of this accident so far (at least that I have seen) is there mention that no fireman's belay was performed. Or, there may have been legitimate reasons for not having one in this location (such as loose rock).

2) There are legitimate questions on the effectiveness of fireman's belays. For more reading, see this testing done by cavers (http://www.caves.org/section/vertical/nh/49/bottblay.html).

3) Very, very few canyoneers have received training on fireman's belays, or caught a simulated fall using a fireman's belay, because simulated falls are notoriously difficult to stage safely. I think many that would try this might be surprised to find that it isn't as easy to catch someone falling using a fireman's belay as they might think it is. There is a lot more involved than "just pull the rope tight". Things aren't so black and white.

4) In my experience, most canyoneers don't know how to perform an adequate fireman's belay anyway. I can't count how many people I've seen giving these sorts of belays incorrectly. It's rare that I've seen it done right. Check out this photo (http://www.zionmountainschool.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/DC_Edit_Canyon_1_Lowres1-1024x887.jpg), from a website of a Zion-based company offering canyoneering courses, which illustrates how most people give these belays. Note that she is making at least three technique mistakes that I can see, each of which inhibits her ability to perform an adequate fireman's belay. Any guesses?

Valid point's, Mike.

I used to teach a firemans/bottom belay as a "job".

To do it right, you must have your arm raised in the air towards the rappeler.

Constantly adjusting rope slack so that an arrest of a fall is immediate BUT allowing enough rope for the person on rappel to do their job as well.

The goal is to arrest a fall as soon as it starts, not shortly thereafter.

I'm just throwing this out to the bogley group and in no way relate it to the accident, I don't know what happened and won't speculate.

Mikes picture is spot on for what I see as a common firemans belay.

While it takes very fine adjustment's, you can lower a person on rappel with a firemans, the key is real time experience AND practice, prior to needing it in a "live" canyon situation.

[blueeyes]

First I would like to say that I am saddened by the death of this young women. We have no idea what took place that day, but know many lives have been drastically altered by her death. My condolences to the family.



2) There are legitimate questions on the effectiveness of fireman's belays. For more reading, see this testing done by cavers (http://www.caves.org/section/vertical/nh/49/bottblay.html).


Thank you for sharing this article mdd. What I take away from this article is if the rappeler has their friction properly set it greatly increases the chances of the belayer being able to arrest a sudden fall when longer distances are involved.


When we discuss belaying it may be considered that a bottom belay is an extension of your brake hand. Excluding all other factors a rappeller will always be able to brake or stop if they have enough friction rigged. And a bottom belayer will always be able to perform a bottom belay if there is enough friction in the system. If a rappeller can't stop or a bottom belayer can't stop them, then there is not enough friction in the system.


An inexperienced canyoneer going last might not set her friction correctly for that long of a rappel. Even if they were belaying her... based on what I read in this article they would not be able to arrest the fall.



4) In my experience, most canyoneers don't know how to perform an adequate fireman's belay anyway. I can't count how many people I've seen giving these sorts of belays incorrectly. It's rare that I've seen it done right. Check out this photo (http://www.zionmountainschool.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/DC_Edit_Canyon_1_Lowres1-1024x887.jpg), from a website of a Zion-based company offering canyoneering courses, which illustrates how most people give these belays. Note that she is making at least three technique mistakes that I can see, each of which inhibits her ability to perform an adequate fireman's belay. Any guesses?

I am new and learning. I will take a crack at this.

1. She is not paying attention to the rappeller
2. She is holding the rope palm up very easy for the rope to be ripped out of her hand.

I was taught that you hold the rope palm down, arm extended up toward rappeller with rope kinda loosely wrapped around your arm. Similar to what Spencer is doing in photo below. (Be kind if incorrect we were learning that day. It was only his second canyon.)

68853

3. The third reason I am struggling with but decided to go with slack in the rope. If he does fall she has to take up that slack before she can even think of arresting his fall.

[pikan]

Valid point's, Mike.

I used to teach a firemans/bottom belay as a "job".

To do it right, you must have your arm raised in the air towards the rappeler.

Constantly adjusting rope slack so that an arrest of a fall is immediate BUT allowing enough rope for the person on rappel to do their job as well.

The goal is to arrest a fall as soon as it starts, not shortly thereafter.

I'm just throwing this out to the bogley group and in no way relate it to the accident, I don't know what happened and won't speculate.

Mikes picture is spot on for what I see as a common firemans belay.

While it takes very fine adjustment's, you can lower a person on rappel with a firemans, the key is real time experience AND practice, prior to needing it in a "live" canyon situation.

I've always thought fireman belaying was simple and strait forward: if the person begins falling, put tension on the rope to stop them. When I do a fireman's belay, I always tie into my own belay device on my harness to manage slack, I stand a short distance from the wall, and watch carefully for signs that the rappeller is in trouble. I've never received formal training on bottom belaying, I just assumed it was as simple as I described. From the comments above it seems like there is more technique to it than that. Luckily I've never had to catch anyone on rappel. Coming from someone that is fairly new to the sport, I would really like to make sure I know how to do this correctly. What do you guys recommend?:ne_nau:

[Brian in SLC]

When I do a fireman's belay, I always tie into my own belay device on my harness to manage slack, I stand a short distance from the wall, and watch carefully for signs that the rappeller is in trouble. <snip> What do you guys recommend?:ne_nau:

I'm not sure I'd want to be into my own belay device...your brake hand isn't their brake hand. That time delay of having to shuck slack through your own device as they are plummetting may be difficult at best, and, not quick enough to get the slack out of the rope. You need to be able to be their brake hand right now.

Best thing to do is go practise. Lower someone, so, you get a feel for having someone else on belay and lower. Climbers do this a ton, but, I suspect folks coming into canyoneering without a bunch of climbing experience, or, even top roping, haven't lowered people much. Maybe they don't know how to belay at all? Dunno.

Then, I'd set up a rappel, maybe have a party of three. Belay from the top anchor with one person, as a safety back up, on a separate rope. Have the rappeller go live on belay. Have the bottom person first, take their weight so the rappeller can let go. Then, have the bottom person lower them. Next, have the rappeller let go without warning. Bottom person catch, then lower. All while carefully belayed from above for safety.

I guess if folks don't have the skills, that, learning how to properly belay someone will benefit the canyoneering toolbox greatly.

[D.O.N.E.]

Condolences to the family and friends of this young woman.
As a newb I'm taking an awful lot away from this thread on proper fireman belay techniques. The book On Rope has a diagram of a bottom belay that recommends having one arm up towards the rappeller, the rope then goes behind the belay person and into their other hand. Always maintaining a sturdy grip on the rope with both hands. I like the palms down tip by blueeyes.

[Bo_Beck]

I have arrested falls on both of the last 2 rappels of Heaps Canyon. Both were the same person. "Curt was 5'11" tall and weighed 310-320lbs. On the second to last rappel I had the ends of the rope tied directly to the anchor. He started to lose control about 15M from the perch. I was able to slow him down and stop him about 5M from the anchors. On the last rappel he lost control about 40M from the bottom. The belay required that I jump off a rock aprox. 2M downhill to stretch enough slack from the line to become tensioned enough to stop him aprox 20M from the ground. Short rappels with minimal rope in the system are much, much easier to arrest a boggle. My condolences also to the family and friends.

[Mountaineer]

Thank you for sharing this article mdd. What I take away from this article is if the rappeler has their friction properly set it greatly increases the chances of the belayer being able to arrest a sudden fall when longer distances are involved.



Excellent, and very important point. Thank you.

That was my take away as well, as I was initially very concerned when I read this article.

If the rappeler does not have adequate friction set to begin with, it may be much harder (or impossible) to arrest with a bottom belay.

[Deathcricket]

To me it sounds like it had to be at the first big dryfall. That's the only drop that's close to 120 feet. There is a pretty well defined trail around it. I think most people bypass it because of the rock fall potential.


If you go to the right, there is a 40' rap with a better start as well. That's the route I've always taken.

Damn I hadn't thought of that, very good point. I thought everyone went to the right avoided that loose rock scary ass place. But if they were using outdated beta as mentioned I could see that happening. I wouldn't want to belay from down there either. Totally makes sense. Of course we are all speculating though. I was thinking it happened at the 2nd rap, isn't that a 120' also? I'm sure a got a video.... Uhhh... ahh yes, skip to 1:40ish, maybe there? Actually no need to even watch the video, it's in the thumbnail I see.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swiVD-BhRU4

[blueeyes]

Condolences to the family and friends of this young woman.
The book On Rope has a diagram of a bottom belay that recommends having one arm up towards the rappeller, the rope then goes behind the belay person and into their other hand. Always maintaining a sturdy grip on the rope with both hands. I like the palms down tip by blueeyes.

I like that think I will incorporate this into what I do.

[Mountaineer]

Of course we are all speculating though. I was thinking it happened at the 2nd rap, isn't that a 120' also?

The first rap, at the rocky ledge is ~120'. Some betas recommend avoiding that and walking around. There is one other rap (at a tree) that is ~100'. All the others are shorter.

[ratagonia]

The first rap, at the rocky ledge is ~120'. Some betas recommend avoiding that and walking around. There is one other rap (at a tree) that is ~100'. All the others are shorter.

The first rap, in the watercourse, where the accident occured, is about 120 feet.

The second rap, also a limestone edge rap, is about 100 feet. This is the first rap, when coming in via the logging roads (recommended by me, at least).

Later in the canyon is a rap down the chute off a tree to the side, about 100 feet.

Tom

[Stray]

I am saddened by this tragedy. My condolence to family, friends and everyone involved.

I discovered the horrible news by reading the Tribune article. Because this site was down, I mistakenly read the comments. I was mortified by the discussion.

Next I came here to be rewarded with a reasonable discussion containing real compassion and real concern for helping others. I have learned things I will take on my next canyoneering trip.

Thank you!

[Scott P]

I'm saddened but not shocked that everyone is piling on to this poor women's partners for not providing a fireman's belay.

I don't know if people were really piling up on her, but were saying that the accident probably was avoidable. Most backcountry accidents are. Kind of think of it, most other accidents are as well (home, workplace, vehicle, etc.).

None of us are perfect and I think most of us can think back to at least one time when we made a mistake that could have been fatal, had the circumstances been different.

I give my condolences to the family and friends.

[tjdowling]

4) In my experience, most canyoneers don't know how to perform an adequate fireman's belay anyway. I can't count how many people I've seen giving these sorts of belays incorrectly. It's rare that I've seen it done right. Check out this photo (http://www.zionmountainschool.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/DC_Edit_Canyon_1_Lowres1-1024x887.jpg), from a website of a Zion-based company offering canyoneering courses, which illustrates how most people give these belays. Note that she is making at least three technique mistakes that I can see, each of which inhibits her ability to perform an adequate fireman's belay. Any guesses?

I'll take a stab at it:

1. She isn't looking that the person on the rope.
2. Too much slack in the rope.
3. She isn't ready/isn't in a body position to pull. Arms should be up.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[Brian in SLC]

I'll take a stab at it:

1. She isn't looking that the person on the rope.
2. Too much slack in the rope.
3. She isn't ready/isn't in a body position to pull. Arms should be up.

I'd guess that her palm up hand position might not be optimal too. Although, I have a fairly diminutive climbing partner who belays that way and has caught quite hard falls with no issues. I'd trust her more than most saavy male partners I climb with...

Interesting that On Rope shows in the "bottom belay" sketch what I'm guessing is a hip belay, and, the belayers top hand is palm up. Another technique referenced which I thought was pretty interesting was to clip the rope through a carabiner anchored at the base of the rappel, and then, attach the rope to the back of the belayers harness. If the person on rappel loses control, then, the belay runs away as fast as possible. This is suggested in an area with a loose rock danger from above. Sounds like the time honored "Stone Mountain Belay", which, is purportedly put into effect at that location when a partner falls on one of the horrendously underprotected face routes (the belayer eyeballs a path through the woods should the partner fall, and, runs pell mell down it should the lead climber pop off).

Anyhoo, back to Mike's pic, yeah, way too much slack and not focusing on the rappeller. I'd be up against the wall, hand up the rope aways, nearly no slack, and, ready to yank down including hitting the ground if need be. I've bottom belayed by taking all the slack out of the rope too, with inexperienced partners. Once they are over an edge or awkward spot, and, look smooth, then relax and step back a bit.

[mdd]

I'll take a stab at it:

1. She isn't looking that the person on the rope.
2. Too much slack in the rope.
3. She isn't ready/isn't in a body position to pull. Arms should be up.


Yes, these are the three I noticed. The palm-up position that others have mentioned isn't ideal, either.

I look at fireman's belay like a hip belay. In the right circumstances it can certainly hold and save you, but it's not foolproof. I ask for a fireman's on occasion but I have no illusions that it will save me if I fall. I ask more for psychological reasons if it is a particularly scary rappel or if I'm fatigued.

There are so many variables involved that people don't think about - does the rappeler have their friction set right for the rope diameter and rappel length? Will I notice they are out of control in time to stop them? When I notice, will I have time to remove slack and slow their descent (this is NOT easy, esp. if they've picked up some speed, which happens fast)? Will the flailing out of control rappeller dislodge rocks that could hit me? If I can't catch them in time, will they land on me, potentially injuring both me AND the rappeller? The list goes on...

One other point worth mentioning, that photo came from a web page advertising canyoneering classes. Vet your teachers well!

M

[burley]

A recent and relative experience: We were doing Englestead this summer on a 300' Imlay 8mm with only one canyon worth of use on it. We lowered the first guy (me, everyone else wanted the real deal) and had two rap down without any troubles. Though it was their second canyon ever they were both climbers and both rigged plenty of friction.

The fourth guy down used a Pirana and had on leather gloves. About halfway down he went to add friction around the lower and upper horn at the same time and missed. He was unable to recover and lost control. I was belaying and not paying as much attention as I should have. He (pretty calmly) yelled down for a belay. I gave a first tug and it didn't seem to do anything so I really pulled hard (I also had on gloves), nearly falling to the ground with the stretch in the rope. It probably took 40 ft from the time he requested a belay until I stopped him, and add another 10-20 for an inattentive belay. Shook us a bit, and surprised me at how long it took me to stop him...I had stopped him on other rappels several times before just messing around and it was almost instantaneous.

A few lessons learned, your experience may vary:

It's a good idea to switch up the belayer, especially on a long rap with a large group. I was less attentive because my neck was strained from looking up for so long.
Make sure you know how to use your rappel device in the situation you face (in this case a long rap with a skinny rope). Though slightly awkward, it would have been safer if he had added the lower horn earlier and then added the upper horn.
If you are going to provide a firemans belay (and why wouldn't you?) do it right.

[ratagonia]

A recent and relative experience: We were doing Englestead this summer on a 300' Imlay 8mm with only one canyon worth of use on it. We lowered the first guy (me, everyone else wanted the real deal) and had two rap down without any troubles. Though it was their second canyon ever they were both climbers and both rigged plenty of friction.

The fourth guy down used a Pirana and had on leather gloves. About halfway down he went to add friction around the lower and upper horn at the same time and missed. He was unable to recover and lost control. I was belaying and not paying as much attention as I should have. He (pretty calmly) yelled down for a belay. I gave a first tug and it didn't seem to do anything so I really pulled hard (I also had on gloves), nearly falling to the ground with the stretch in the rope. It probably took 40 ft from the time he requested a belay until I stopped him, and add another 10-20 for an inattentive belay. Shook us a bit, and surprised me at how long it took me to stop him...I had stopped him on other rappels several times before just messing around and it was almost instantaneous.

A few lessons learned, your experience may vary:

It's a good idea to switch up the belayer, especially on a long rap with a large group. I was less attentive because my neck was strained from looking up for so long.
Make sure you know how to use your rappel device in the situation you face (in this case a long rap with a skinny rope). Though slightly awkward, it would have been safer if he had added the lower horn earlier and then added the upper horn.
If you are going to provide a firemans belay (and why wouldn't you?) do it right.



Adding friction by tossing the rope around additional horns on a Pirana has proved unreliable for quite a few people. Not recommended.

http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/techtips/how-to-use-a-petzl-pirana/

The broken pelvis/near death experience in Illusions was because of this, though the glow of future YouTube stardom may also have been a contributing factor.

First rappel of the day often leads to less than clear-headedness.

Tom :moses:

[Mountaineer]

Adding friction by tossing the rope around additional horns on a Pirana has proved unreliable for quite a few people. Not recommended.



On method I've done with the Sterling ATS: carabiner in the leg loop for more friction, then grab the horn and go back down again for even more. Has allowed me to effectively add friction without going through an area of less friction dynamically. Full Z.

[ghawk]

I was recently rock climbing and a couple showed up to rappel. The girl was pretty nervous so I could tell it was her first time. We talked for a few minutes, they were getting ready for Orderville, and my group offered to give her a fireman's belay from the bottom because the guy wanted to make sure she was set up right. She came down fine.

Then the guy asked her to provide a belay while he came down. When he got close to the ground they "practiced' the belay by having her lightly tug on the rope. The guy said "see, you just have to barely tug on it." :facepalm1:` I looked over and yelled "actually you should put all of your weight on it and drop to the ground." His response was "well she's just a beginner, so little steps first." I could tell by his tone but he was trying to show off his climbing/canyoneering knowledge to his girl and was a bit peeved with me, so I didn't yell back that what he was teaching her was crap. I hope they both will remember what I said and not get someone hurt because they "barely tug" on the rope.

I've had to give a fireman's belay several times because people were new, or their friction wasn't set up as well as it could have been, or they were doing something stupid. In all cases I have dropped all my weight on the rope and pulled as hard as I could. All ended up okay and I have a lot of confidence in a solid fireman belay if the rappeller is hooked in properly. But, as has been mentioned, you have to be paying attention and you have to put a lot of force on that rope quickly because even with all your weight on the rope they will slide a good distance before stopping if they get out of control.

[hank moon]

Adding friction by tossing the rope around additional horns on a Pirana has proved unreliable for quite a few people. Not recommended.

Sometimes it works well...depends on the situation, especially the type and condition of the rope. Wrapping friction horns "on the fly" tends to work better with softer, larger diameter rope (> 9mm) that is relatively clean. Small, stiff, rope = less effective. In any case, feeding is often required to get moving. When feeding, I always block the rope from popping off the top horn with the free hand. A few rounds of quick feeding can sometimes generate enough momentum to get the rope sliding. But, sometimes not. YMWV.

DO NOT FEED w/o carefully blocking the rope from coming off the top horn!

[hank moon]

Fireman's belay:

Seems to be taking some hits here. Applied correctly and appropriately, it's a great tool. Not a panacea, but nothing is (apart from couch + Gilligan's Island).

Some points for an effective bottom belay:

- Rappeller's device properly set up with sufficient friction
- Belay commands are well understood and practiced by all in the group
- Belayer on bottom has stable stance, is out of rockfall zone but as close as possible to fall line, can visually monitor rappeller, has firm grip on rope with both hands, minimal slack in rope, is attentive and ready to apply tension instantly

Fireman's belay MUST be practiced by all team members. It is a deceptively simple concept, and thus it is easy to get it wrong. On all trips, get everyone to practice, with backup. Switching belayers for each rappeller (last rapper becomes new belayer) is a simple way to go. If there is any doubt (or not) about someone's ability to belay, back them up with one or more persons on the brake line. Avoid relying on one person to do all of the belaying. The entire team needs to learn and practice this important skill.

I've seen the fireman's work 100s of times. Lots of potential injuries averted. Never seen it fail, though obviously it can (anything can fail). Note the caver report that MDD referenced: a very long drop (800'), a longer, redirected rope with a lot of stretch (100% nylon construction). These conditions are very unfavorable to the fireman's belay. Shorter drops (< 200') with less stretchy rope = very favorable in my experience.

[dougr]

I'm all for avoiding erosion on nasty trails, but, these spots look bad for rappelling with all the loose rock. Perhaps a reconsideration of eliminating these rappels in the future in route descriptions will help prevent a few accidents?

No. Emphatically so. It's a dangerous sport. Attempts to make it safer will make it more dangerous overall.

I repeat: attempts to make it safer will make it more dangerous overall. Think about that one.

[Slot Machine]

Attempts to make it safer will make it more dangerous overall.

I repeat: attempts to make it safer will make it more dangerous overall. Think about that one.

68910

[hank moon]

No. Emphatically so. It's a dangerous sport. Attempts to make it safer will make it more dangerous overall.

I repeat: attempts to make it safer will make it more dangerous overall. Think about that one.

Please elaborate on what you mean. It is a given that the sport is dangerous; however, the truth of your statement is non-obvious. How is it that attempts to make canyoneering safer will make it more dangerous? Are you making a general statement here, or just responding to the specific situation re: Birch Hollow and bypassing the crum-bly raps?

[Aj84737]

I ran into a group of 3 in birch before with 2 of them being complete beginners. One of the beginners went down first got about 5 feet down and became stuck. She had an ATC double stand and some big bulky kind of autoblock. I give her probs for not panicking at all and for trying to explain what had went wrong. There were 3 groups there. The group with the suck girl a group of 2 then my group of 2. We offered our help and any equipment if needed. He said they were fine for now. He tried to figure it out from above but couldn't get her unstuck. He borrowed a rope went down next to her and tried to help. He however either didn't know how to tie off or in the moment of panic forgot how to tie off. But anyways he couldn't solve anything with just one hand free. His arm became tired quick and he ended up finishing the rap.

The lone member of there group at the top didn't even know how to hook up to his figure 8 let alone know how to help the stuck rappeller. So my group and the other group decided since she was only a few feet down and only a pretty mellow lip between us that the easiest solution was to just give her a tug up the cliff. She didn't even have a helmet so I lowered her mine and told her how to tie a knot in her rope just incase it came free. And we gave her a tug up and freed her.

I love love love my ATS so I've not to familiar with the ATC so maybe my hypothesis of what happened is wrong. But. To me it looked like the biner holding the ATC got flipped around and the skinny end of the biner wasn't letting the rope feed through the device. It was also really thick rope. Just guessing somewhere in the range of 10 to 11. Maybe one of you ATC lovers would know if that's possible??? The autoblock device which I have know idea what is was also appeared to have maybe got stuck too. It looked kinda like some massive remake of a grigri that was rigged up above the ATC on a teather to the belay loop.

Anyways idk where I'm going with this. But dsr's comment of trying to make things safer makes it more dangerous made me think of this.

[dougr]

Please elaborate on what you mean. ... Are you making a general statement here

General yes. The culture is such now that in an attempt to reduce risk, we invite laziness and complacency which increase risk.

Specifically with our sport, we'd see more incompetent canyoneers, not the same skill level in less risky canyons. We'd see self-appointed safety czars imposing their view of the safe route, which is inherently more dangerous overall than a well educated and experienced cadre of canyoneers who take it upon themselves to be safe ->out of absolute necessity<-. Nothing replaces the focus that comes from knowing you have to rely on your skill. Which includes beta and the experience of others, don't get me wrong.

An analogy would be the millions of wards of the state who literally cannot take care of themselves out of learned helplessness due to the attempt to remake life/school/work a risk free, angst free, worry free endeavor. It backfires due to human nature, as would the safety of canyoneering if the wrong ethos takes hold.

[dougr]

68910

If I end up looking like that, shoot me.

[dougr]

More...

In the post 127 Hours world we did/are experiencing, we are watching a tug of war between saving the incompetent in the present, or preserving a danger level now that will save more lives in the long run by dissuading people who don't belong. I don't want to see people die. I want to see them live, and scaring straight is sadly the best potion. Very old fashioned thinking and certainly not very acceptable in today's society, but that's my thinking.

[TommyBoy]

A very interesting ethical dilemma, and one I'm sure will guarantee pretty close to a 50/50 split love/hate response whatever "solution" is chosen. I'm one of the lucky ones who succesfully survived the "I'm an invincible noob" stage, nor did I kill any of the friends I took with me. The more I learn the more scared I get when I think about some of my earliest trips.

[Slot Machine]

General yes. The culture is such now that in an attempt to reduce risk, we invite laziness and complacency which increase risk.

Specifically with our sport, we'd see more incompetent canyoneers, not the same skill level in less risky canyons. We'd see self-appointed safety czars imposing their view of the safe route, which is inherently more dangerous overall than a well educated and experienced cadre of canyoneers who take it upon themselves to be safe ->out of absolute necessity<-. Nothing replaces the focus that comes from knowing you have to rely on your skill. Which includes beta and the experience of others, don't get me wrong.

An analogy would be the millions of wards of the state who literally cannot take care of themselves out of learned helplessness due to the attempt to remake life/school/work a risk free, angst free, worry free endeavor. It backfires due to human nature, as would the safety of canyoneering if the wrong ethos takes hold.

^^This is a mess of jumbled thoughts.^^ BARELY readable.

Are you saying that canyoneers are endangered by beta writers that publish the safest method to do various routes? Are you saying that people are disabled because beta makes people lazy or complacent?

[Cr8on]

. One last comment: A permit system would not have prevented this since the Park Service doesn't ask nor does it care about experience before issuing a permit. Buyer Beware!

Not true.

[Bootboy]

^^This is a mess of jumbled thoughts.^^ BARELY readable.

Are you saying that canyoneers are endangered by beta writers that publish the safest method to do various routes? Are you saying that people are disabled because beta makes people lazy or complacent?

Not that the beta writers are to blame, but the fact is that canyons with readily available beta do and will get done more frequently. I think that whether or not the beta describes the "safest" route, techniques, etc..., has little to do with the outcomes of those who travel the route by said beta. It's a function of the experience of the participants. Think about the canyons that get done the most often, there is no doubt a correlation between the demand for a canyon, and readily available beta.

[dougr]

^^This is a mess of jumbled thoughts.^^ BARELY readable.

Clarifying...

Ethos 1: let's try to make canyoneering safer for those who will come along that are incompetent.

Ethos 2: let's make those in the canyons better prepped and able to make good decisions.

Brian's gist was no. 1. The proven best is no. 2, in all facets of society.

[TommyBoy]

Are you saying that canyoneers are endangered by beta writers that publish the safest method to do various routes? Are you saying that people are disabled because beta makes people lazy or complacent?

I think that in the wrong hands that beta can make people lazy, I know when I first started out sometimes I would rely more on the beta than in trying to look around and figure out how to get down myself. Of course thats not the beta's fault that was mine, but the more specific you make it the easier it is for newbs to rely on it rather than checking it against reality.

[ratagonia]

http://www.bogley.com/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by KentC http://www.bogley.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?p=541907#post541907)
. One last comment: A permit system would not have prevented this since the Park Service doesn't ask nor does it care about experience before issuing a permit. Buyer Beware!



Not true.

Uh, what part???

I would say that the Park Service CARES, and thus I take exception to Kent's statement. They sometimes ask, and sometimes attempt to dissuade people from a particular canyon, but they are in a "shall-issue" environment, so there is only so much they can do.

It is not the Park Service's job to screen people.

Birch Hollow is BLM land, managed out of Kanab. So if a permit system was implemented, it would be by the Kanab office. They have discussed it previously because of the crowding, and it is Spotted Owl habitat, which they are required by law to manage to not disadvantage the Owls.

Does any land management agency manage any resource for the sake of preventing accidents? I cannot think of any. What I can think of is places that are closed (Nutty Putty), or managed for other reasons.

Tom

[dougr]

Not true.

Really? IME they ask, caution, but do nothing. As it should be.

[Slot Machine]

Clarifying...

Ethos 1: let's try to make canyoneering safer for those who will come along that are incompetent.

Ethos 2: let's make those in the canyons better prepped and able to make good decisions.

Brian's gist was no. 1. The proven best is no. 2, in all facets of society.

Thanks for the clarification.

I'm pretty sure Brian was saying that an ethic should be adopted for that one particular drop in Birch; like everyone avoiding the sand hill at the end of Spry. And yes, that would fall under the above ethic #1.

I like downclimbing LDC. It's simple and fast. I'm not going to do a loose, awkward rap when I don't have to. YMMV.

[Scott P]

Does any land management agency manage any resource for the sake of preventing accidents? I cannot think of any.

I'm confused at to what you mean here (maybe I'm misunderstanding). :ne_nau:

No land agency's sole purpose is to prevent accidents, but aren't some resources managed to prevent accidents? For example, isn't the end of lower Echo closed for safety reasons? Many places on public lands are off limits due solely to safety reasons.

I'm just curious as to what you mean rather than disagreeing.

[Iceaxe]

I think that in the wrong hands that beta can......

And if we outlaw ropes, only outlaws will have ropes.... err... something like that...

If you really want to stop accidents in Birch just pass a rule "no climbing aids allowed". Lot's of places already have that rule in place for various reasons. One of the major hurdles to getting Goblin's Lair open to the public was Goblin Valley had such a rule in place that we had to get waved.

Something to consider about beta... it is protected under the first amendment, it is a right and not a privilege. Even crappy beta is protected.

But yeah... I get what you are saying, but you are blaming the tool, and not the fool using the tool.

Deja Vu... tell me I haven't heard these arguments somewhere before... :ne_nau: :lol8:

The only thing that will stop a dumbass with crappy beta is a trained canyoneer with good beta.....

:popcorn:

[dougr]

like everyone avoiding the sand hill at the end of Spry. And yes, that would fall under the above ethic #1.

I think the Spry exit is for reasons of beauty, correct me if I'm wrong. Arguably safer to go the sand than the watercourse. I'm all for putting the landscape above safety, personally in my descents, if reasonable.

[ratagonia]

I'm confused at to what you mean here (maybe I'm misunderstanding). :ne_nau:

No land agency's sole purpose is to prevent accidents, but aren't some resources managed to prevent accidents? For example, isn't the end of lower Echo closed for safety reasons? Many places on public lands are off limits due solely to safety reasons.

I'm just curious as to what you mean rather than disagreeing.

That is for the safety of OTHERS, not to prevent accidents to the perpetrator (if you grok the distinction).

Maybe I am defining accident here as "people hurting themselves".

In general, in America, it is illegal to do things that endanger other people. As a society, we draw a distinction between doing things that are a danger to ourselves, and endangering other people.

If you create a rescue situation in Zion because you are a total idiot, you CAN be cited for "creating a hazardous situation", ie, endangering the rescue personnel.

Tom

[TommyBoy]

And if we outlaw ropes, only outlaws will have ropes.... err... something like that...

If you really want to stop accidents in Birch just pass a rule "no climbing aids allowed". Lot's of places already have that rule in place for various reasons. One of the major hurdles to getting Goblin's Lair open to the public was Goblin Valley had such a rule in place that we had to get waved.

Something to consider about beta... it is protected under the first amendment, it is a right and not a privilege. Even crappy beta is protected.

But yeah... I get what you are saying, but you are blaming the tool, and not the fool using the tool.

Deja Vu... tell me I haven't heard these arguments somewhere before... :ne_nau: :lol8:

The only thing that will stop a dumbass with crappy beta is a trained canyoneer with good beta.....

:popcorn:

I wasn't trying to say no to beta, I love your beta shane, I use it all the time. :haha: I just meant that there is a point where providing too much data only panders to the careless and helps them get in over their heads and into trouble since they are reading a page and not looking around them. Fools will be fools, but if they run out of info on the page then maybe, just maybe a few of them will look around and try to think for themselves. Stranger things have happened.

[Iceaxe]

I wasn't trying to say no to beta,

I understood what you were saying... my point was you can't fix stupid and when you attempt to pass rules to stop some dumbass from hurting themself or others you usually catch the innocent in any wide net you cast.



Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[BriSimple]

So sad to hear this happened for sure. I'm sure everyone feels bad about this, especially at such a wonderful canyon. This is truly one of my favorites for many reasons. It has always been one of my backup canyon if I didn't get a permit I wanted. Everyone knows how difficult it is to get permits to the canyons we all want and I do think it's because there are too few permits issued for many of the popular sites. Granted, nobody wants a 2 hour delay in Mystery because 20 people are trying to get through but it would be nice if perhaps they doubled the permits on those that are a bit faster and loosely schedule departure times. Just a thought.

Birch doesn't have a permit requirement and personally, I think this is great. I've never waited long and I've actually really enjoyed meeting people in the canyon. Birch has gone from my backup canyon to my primary canyon on a lot of trips.

I'm going to measure the first rappel at the rocky ledge sometime. I've always thought it to be around 100 feet max. I like doing this rappel but I admit, I've seen some good chunks come down next to me (fortunately not on top of me). I require everyone to have a helmet but I doubt the helmet is going to win in any case but a little pebble.

Such a great canyon. I hope nobody else gets hurt but I also hope that lots of people get to enjoy it in the future without permits. I'm not a fan of the low daily permit limits but I also strongly feel people should have sufficient experience before being allowed to take a toll on our Search and Rescue resources. I frequently take new climbers to Birch because I don't want to get up at 1am and be sixth in line for a permit to the same Zion canyon.

Happy Canyoneering...

Brian