Ethics...And Dogs on hikes...

[Bo_Beck]

Pretty sure this topic gets a rise from most everyone, but I'm curious to see how people weigh in, or should I say, how people might weigh in? This spurns from another recent thread, and has been discussed (or rather over-discussed and beat to death) in many threads. What's your take?

I hiked the Subway 2 1/2 weeks ago. We ran into 3 hikers with their dog hiking up the Left Fork. The dog wasn't restrained and immediately confronted me with threatening snarls and wanted me to show fear so that he could take a hunk out of me while the woman owner was feebly shouting for "Duke" to stop it and come back. I stood my ground and showed no fear and stared "Duke" down as he seemed a bit taken by surprise! When the owner finally grabbed her dog by the collar and pullled it back. I explained that dogs are not allowed in The Subway and they were at risk of recieving a fine if the Rangers were to confront them. She said that she wasn't worried and let Duke go as they continued on their merry way.

OK....I know a lot of folks on this forum are contra the permit system, and may or may not really care, but I suggest this.......What if you had been me, and your kids were along for the hike...or lets say instead, you were me and you'd encountered this same scenario. How would you be thinking right now about the permit system? Is it there for a reason? Or should it just be a free for all? Whats the difference between just poaching, and poaching with your dog? How do I distinguish or create the line between whats acceptable or not?

Just curious!

[oldno7]

...:lol8:

[Bo_Beck]

...:lol8:

The most interesting man in the world! :haha:

[oldno7]

Sorry Bo, couldn't help myself.:mrgreen:

To answer your question, I hate aggressive dogs, especially when the owner thinks they are cute, while tearing your pants off your leg.

I would really hate that same dog, confronting me in the subway.

I say stab it with your canyoneering knife and resume the hike like nothing happened....:haha:

Let her explain how some crazy canyoneer stabbed her illegal dog on her illegal hike.

And then there would be the issue of carcass removal--$$$$$$

[Brian in SLC]

I How would you be thinking right now about the permit system? Is it there for a reason? Or should it just be a free for all? Whats the difference between just poaching, and poaching with your dog? How do I distinguish or create the line between whats acceptable or not?

Blatent disregard for not only the rules, but, other folks' well being. Ugh. Not acceptable. Tough situation, though. I don't have the aplomb to deal with some of those folks in the wild. I'd probably think about turning her in. Citizen's arrest? Tough call.

I saw a person hiking with their dog in Little Cottonwood this week. Casually asked if she had a permit, and, they kind of angrily reponded, "yes, I do." I just said "well, good". And left it at that. The people in her party did start a discussion with her about it, which, would have been interesting to hear but they (and we) hiked out of earshot.

Last weekend, talking to the ranger at Castle Rocks. He's in full uniform, as well as one of his co-rangers, with, two park vehicles in the very small parking lot. A couple gals pulled up and out piled two ginormous marmadukes. Really big great danes. They pack up to head out and the ranger asks, "uhhh, you ARE going to put those dogs on a leash, right?"

People and their dogs. Too funny. Kinda.

[oldno7]

This guy has some amazing stuff that is somehow relevant to this thread, wonder if he canyoneers?---strange:twisted:

[qedcook]

I hate dogs of all kinds so my opinion is slanted, but usually when an unleashed dog gets too aggressive with me I slap it in the face hard. Or if it's really aggressive, I kick it gently. If the owner complains, I tell them to control their pet.

Unfortunately, I can't take the same approach with my siblings dogs when they come to visit.

[jman]

Interesting Bo.

I find the ones most obsessed about taking there dogs with em are the female kind. My sister is kinda the same way. If she could, she would bring her Visla through Heaps, down waterfalls, rock-climbing, skydiving, scuba-diving, repairing the roof, wake-surfing, etc. Don't get me wrong, I love my old dog - but don't want to haul it around on every trip, let alone, technical ones.

And here's my opinion - it seems most people have a disregard to ethics. The ones who care are the rare ones these days. It's a selfish world. If people could get away with it, they would. Now, that's the cynic in me talking and I tend to see the world through a half-empty glass POV. And that's the problem - people not caring about their actions ever (doesn't mainstream culture along with music say "to not care", do what what you want - screw everybody else mantra?).

You at least brought up the question to her - at least she was aware and that was probably good enough. And I'm glad you did. It's similar to myself hiking in the nearby Cottonwoods and I see people hiking with dogs. I tell them that they shouldn't have brought their dog - followed by their instant reply of F*** YOU!. And again, for the stereotype, it's mostly young women. It's rarely a "how come?" or a "oh, i didn't know", etc. It's 99% of the time, a F*** YOU! type of response. Hence, the "i dont' care" mentality. But hey, I'll keep on saying that whenever I see em.

[xxnitsuaxx]

I was running in Millcreek when a super-aggressive boxer pounced at me with his teeth bared. I spun to avoid him and he pounced again. The second time, I uppercutted him and knocked him off the trail. He lay there for a second before getting up woozily and slinking away. The owner came up apologetically and said that she was sorry and that the dog didn't take kindly to strangers. I reamed her for knowingly taking an aggressive dog off-leash on a public trail and told her that she was a lawsuit waiting to happen. I considered turning her into the police (hers was the only other car at the trailhead that day and I got the license plate number) but decided against it.

Moral of the story? If a dog attacks you, defend yourself however you see fit. I like dogs and all but I think there are times and places for them and crowded national parks definitely isn't it.

[xxnitsuaxx]

And coming from what jman said - I'd like to hear from a dog lover who thinks it's ok to take their dog everywhere. What's your reasoning for taking your dog EVERYWHERE? Do you not like to be apart from it? Is it more fun with a dog along? Do you recognize that some people who frequent the same places you do don't like dogs? Does that factor into your decision or does your desire to be with your dog trump my desire to not step in its poop or have it run across my rope?

[JONBOYLEMON]

I will gladly kick or hit or stab or shoot an aggressive dog. I was at the local park last year and a little dog came up all teeth and anger. I was flying my rc plane at the time and was looking up but could see the fury anger at my feet. Well a little 10 pound dog can fly 10' without much of a kick.

The owner got all pissy with me and said "Oh, hes all bark, he would never hurt anybody, you didnt have to kick him" I landed and smiled, and said "Good to know" I said it in a tone that expressed how little I cared what he would or would not do.

Moral of the story, I bet I am like most people, we dont want to wait to find out what the dog will or wont do. If you have a dog, its your responsibility.

[D.O.N.E.]

I don't take my dogs EVERYWHERE but they do go lots of places with me, although never anywhere they are prohibited and not through anything technical. if they cant make it on their own they aren't going. However, as much as I love them I'm also strict with them. I do a lot of work prior to taking them somewhere we are likely to run into folks. I don't tolerate aggression, charging, etc. I practice their recall, I don't care what the hell is going on when I call them they are to heel. As much as my dogs are friendly, I wait for someone to ask to interact with them before they are allowed to approach that person. The few places they go off-leash I clip them back on leash or have them sit-stay with my hand on their collar if I see someone approaching us. And yes I pack out EVERYTHING, I have a roll of poop bags clipped on their leash. And none of that extendable leash bs. Those need to be outlawed. The only people using them seem to be the ones with out of control dogs. Mine walk on a loose leash at my hip.

unfortunately not all dog owners are responsible, which is part of the reason I'm so strict with mine. I want my dogs near me when a strange dog runs up with its fur ruffled growling. I can't do much but I'll do what I can to keep that dog away from mine and prevent a fight. It irritates me to no end when someone lets their dog run up to mine without my permission first. You don't know my dogs, what if I was so strict because they'll attempt to tear into your dog? They wouldn't but still! What kind of dog owner is negligent enough to let their dog do that? And don't get me started on the types whose dog walks them on a leash not the other way around!

To be a responsible dog owner is to keep your dog from harm. YOU tell it where it can and can not go. You do not let it interact willy nilly with every person or animal it sees, only with those you judge and confirm are open to and positive about an interaction. To be a responsible person you don't leave trash behind, even if its your dog's doo doo!

[Felicia]

I take pictures of the people and their animals.

[Iceaxe]

I like dogs, children and old people......

:popcorn:

[oldno7]

I like dogs, children and old people......

:popcorn:

And Watermelon Wine???

[cchoc]

Carry one of those pocket pepper spray canisters and give fido a snoot full.

[Mojave Silence]

Carry whatever self defense tool you find necessary to quickly and overwhelmingly deal with any threat you may encounter in remote areas. I'm done trying to rationalize with people who allow aggressive dogs to run free in public areas. If I deem the dog to be threatening toward me I'll deal with it then and there.

[Byron]

Unlike some of you others here, I've never been aggressively approached by a dog, ever. Sure, I've had a few come up a bit cautiously, not looking to freindly...but never in attack mode. I've dated women who have dogs that would lick your face off...even out on the trail.

Personally, I don't care. Like Jman said, lots of folks will tell you to either shove it or play like they're stupid...so what's the point in even saying anything? Don't think for a minute that these folks are going to have a epiphany and suddenly consider anyone but themselves.

I suppose I live by the "they do what they want to do, 'cause they're going to do it anyway" school of thought.

These people with their unleashed, aggro dogs are just plain rude and selfish. There are two types of people in the world...givers and takers. I realized a long time ago that the takers are the ones you really want nothing to do with. So I really don't give a crap what they do...I figure if they're going through life with little to no real consideration for others, they're already ate up in a way, know what I mean?

Enjoy life, perhaps even break the rules every now and then... do what makes you happy but don't do it if it'll cause inconvenience to others. I think that's a good philosophy. However, wishing that these people would somehow get with the program is just that...wishing.

Pepper spray...I like that. Just don't blast the lickers, eh?

[pikan]

I don't take my dogs EVERYWHERE but they do go lots of places with me, although never anywhere they are prohibited and not through anything technical. if they cant make it on their own they aren't going. However, as much as I love them I'm also strict with them. I do a lot of work prior to taking them somewhere we are likely to run into folks. I don't tolerate aggression, charging, etc. I practice their recall, I don't care what the hell is going on when I call them they are to heel. As much as my dogs are friendly, I wait for someone to ask to interact with them before they are allowed to approach that person. The few places they go off-leash I clip them back on leash or have them sit-stay with my hand on their collar if I see someone approaching us. And yes I pack out EVERYTHING, I have a roll of poop bags clipped on their leash. And none of that extendable leash bs. Those need to be outlawed. The only people using them seem to be the ones with out of control dogs. Mine walk on a loose leash at my hip.

unfortunately not all dog owners are responsible, which is part of the reason I'm so strict with mine. I want my dogs near me when a strange dog runs up with its fur ruffled growling. I can't do much but I'll do what I can to keep that dog away from mine and prevent a fight. It irritates me to no end when someone lets their dog run up to mine without my permission first. You don't know my dogs, what if I was so strict because they'll attempt to tear into your dog? They wouldn't but still! What kind of dog owner is negligent enough to let their dog do that? And don't get me started on the types whose dog walks them on a leash not the other way around!

To be a responsible dog owner is to keep your dog from harm. YOU tell it where it can and can not go. You do not let it interact willy nilly with every person or animal it sees, only with those you judge and confirm are open to and positive about an interaction. To be a responsible person you don't leave trash behind, even if its your dog's doo doo!

I try to be strict with my dog as well, but my dog's high-energy, social nature (Vizsla) makes it hard to keep him away from people ALL the time. I've done a pretty good job on all but a few occasions. If I can help it, I will wait for someone to ask to approach him before i let him interact with other people and I will always make sure he's okay with it before allowing it. If it's a high traffic area, I'll keep him on the leash or leave him at home. In fact, if I know that the chances of running into ANY people are good, I'll at least bring my leash with so he can be kept under control. But the fact is, all these precautions are not 100% effective with my dog so please try to be nice to him :) he's a good doggy :)

He does get a bit out of sorts with SOME people on rare occasions (haven't figured out why yet, my next theory to observe is hair-do) but most of the time he is friendly (he has never bitten anyone).

So what I'm trying to say is this: don't escalate a situation unnecessarily. If someone smacks or kicks my dog...okay as long as he deserved it. But if you can help it, let me do it. Pepper spray....weeellll... he would REALLY need to deserve it. Stabbing?...come on people!!!!! Pets are part of people's families!!!! (aside from the financial investment that can be involved...buying, training, etc... $$$$$) Lets try to keep the peace a bit. I will be the first to defend ANYONE who takes such a drastic action to defend themselves from a valid life-threatening dog (or person for that matter) after all other options are exhausted, but if someone stabs my dog, they better have a REALLY, REALLY good reason, otherwise.......:angryfire:

As far as taking my dog where he shouldn't be... I welcome friendly reminders! I don't knowingly take my dog places that he isn't allowed so please let me know if I do so I know in the future. Just because some don't care doesn't mean we all don't. Don't give up on people in general so easily!

[pikan]

...and I agree that technical canyons are NOT for dogs. If he can't get there on his own, he shouldn't be there.

[oldno7]

I try to be strict with my dog as well, but my dog's high-energy, social nature (Vizsla) makes it hard to keep him away from people ALL the time. I've done a pretty good job on all but a few occasions. If I can help it, I will wait for someone to ask to approach him before i let him interact with other people and I will always make sure he's okay with it before allowing it. If it's a high traffic area, I'll keep him on the leash or leave him at home. In fact, if I know that the chances of running into ANY people are good, I'll at least bring my leash with so he can be kept under control. But the fact is, all these precautions are not 100% effective with my dog so please try to be nice to him :) he's a good doggy :)

He does get a bit out of sorts with SOME people on rare occasions (haven't figured out why yet, my next theory to observe is hair-do) but most of the time he is friendly (he has never bitten anyone).

So what I'm trying to say is this: don't escalate a situation unnecessarily. If someone smacks or kicks my dog...okay as long as he deserved it. But if you can help it, let me do it. Pepper spray....weeellll... he would REALLY need to deserve it. Stabbing?...come on people!!!!! Pets are part of people's families!!!! (aside from the financial investment that can be involved...buying, training, etc... $$$$$) Lets try to keep the peace a bit. I will be the first to defend ANYONE who takes such a drastic action to defend themselves from a valid life-threatening dog (or person for that matter) after all other options are exhausted, but if someone stabs my dog, they better have a REALLY, REALLY good reason, otherwise.......:angryfire:

As far as taking my dog where he shouldn't be... I welcome friendly reminders! I don't knowingly take my dog places that he isn't allowed so please let me know if I do so I know in the future. Just because some don't care doesn't mean we all don't. Don't give up on people in general so easily!


Of all the dog mauling I've ever seen reported on tv. I've yet to hear a dog owner say--"thats one bad ass dog, he can eat a kid a day for breakfast and still need a snack, poodle, before lunch".

Most say about what you did.

I'm a dog guy, have been all my life. If your hiking with your dog, unleashed, in a national park area where dogs are restricted and your dog has a habit of charging people, don't expect nice.

And that was Bo's story at the beginning. It all boils down to smart handling and a bit of common sense. If you as a dog handler don't exhibit any, why do you expect someone attacked by your dog to do so?

I know--I know--He's a nice dog and wouldn't hurt anybody.....Save that line for the news reporters.

[pikan]

Of all the dog mauling I've ever seen reported on tv. I've yet to hear a dog owner say--"thats one bad ass dog, he can eat a kid a day for breakfast and still need a snack, poodle, before lunch".

Most say about what you did.

I'm a dog guy, have been all my life. If your hiking with your dog, unleashed, in a national park area where dogs are restricted and your dog has a habit of charging people, don't expect nice.

And that was Bo's story at the beginning. It all boils down to smart handling and a bit of common sense. If you as a dog handler don't exhibit any, why do you expect someone attacked by your dog to do so?

I know--I know--He's a nice dog and wouldn't hurt anybody.....Save that line for the news reporters.


I wouldn't expect nice from someone being stared down by a mean dog. I think Bo did the right thing. And I'd take responsibility for my dog in that kind of situation. All I'm saying is that people should use some common sense and common decency and NOT go into every dog situation ready to stab them. I try to do the same with the places I take my dog and how I control him. ANY dog, whether they have a history of being aggressive or not WILL become aggressive if it put in the right situation anyone who says otherwise is fooling themselves. Please...just use good judgement....dog owners especially in this statement.
I agree that a national park is NOT a place for a leash-less dog.

[tjdowling]

I'm really only replying to this thread so I can put up a picture of my awesome dog. But I'll throw my two cents in anyways. I have a husky who loves to run and hike. I take him to every park that allows it when I can but DO NOT let him off the leash. I do it because he would bolt if I did, but more importantly, I realize people aren't going to give him the benefit of the doubt if he comes up to them. He has been mistaken for a wolf (honestly, who has a pet wolf).

This is probably a can of worms, but I wish national parks had a more liberal dog policy. I would love to take my dog on a hike in Zion. I was in Banff last week and there were dogs everywhere and all were on leashes. I saw zero dog poop and not a single one of them threatened me. I offer no evidence nor claim any good reason one way or another as to why I think dogs in national parks in the US would or would not be a good idea. But I'd much rather pass a well controlled dog on a leash on a trail than a little kid complaining or a dude blasting music or an overweight and out of shape hiker that I feel compelled to help.

68729

[sweetygurl_03]

Ithink it becomes a problem when it is illegal like in National Parks and when people have not taught the dog how to act and it is out od control. I am guilty of taking my dog MANY places hiking and canyoneering never in ZIOn, but he is a well behaved small chihuahua. He does not bark growl show teeth act like a mad man while hiking. I also take him to local parks quite often while I work out and he runs around and follows me not bugging anyone.. I recently got flack from a couple stupid old ladiesas to how he should be on leash, but he was following me around and did absolutely nothing to them. So the main question for me is.. is it legal and have the owners properly trained the dog so it behaves off leash?? If answer is no or like some stories above it should totally be on leash!

[Deathcricket]

I own 2 massive Pits who will tear your face off. Better stay off my trails.
6873568736

But when they've had their naps and baths in, they are ok

68737
68738

Seriously though, I take my dogs everywhere, 90% off leash (always E-collared though) and I've had a couple problems, they have never shown aggression to humans but other people's dogs there have been a couple arguments. And it's really hard to tell if dogs are going to be best friends or enemies. I've had my dogs decide to stand right in the middle of trails like a dumbass while resting and block it for other mtn bikers so they have to slam on their brakes. I still have problems with small children, they love to lick their faces, and because they are eye level with my massive dogs it's usually not appreciated. Especially if the children aren't used to dogs and frightened because they have no pets at home. I've had people just freak out because they are pitbulls and off leash. This lady in Home Depot literally started crying because my dog sat next to her.

And honestly if I could figure out how to take my 90 pound dogs rappelling with me while I poach canyons..... I would. I just don't because it's not logistically feasible. I guess the point is, everyone is different levels with our dogs and working with them, there are going to be issues to work out. If we all show a little understanding though and tolerance we can all get along. And if you feel the need to kick my dog, mace it, run it over with your mtn bike, that's on me, not you. Most people though have been VERY understanding, and I've been VERY apologetic on the rare instances where problems occur.

The worst instance I can recall to mind was on Paradise loop/chuckwalla trail. I was crusing down the sandy south end when we came around the corner and low and behold a guy is riding a horse. I pull over to the side and tell my dogs to sit next to me (bikes yield to horses). But Atlas (the white pitt) for some reason decides right as the horse is walking by, to stand up and bark at it. The horse didn't react (well trained) and I zapped my dog's e-collar and he sat back down. but that horse guy bitched me out for a good 5 mins about how I was lucky his horse didn't kick my dogs and kill them, and my pitts should be on a leash and not allowed to challenge his horse, and he could have been bucked off and hurt. I was totally in the wrong so didn't argue back, but that guy was such a douche! But to be fair I did agree with him, so whatevs. Plus while he stood there with his horse, my dogs got a good smell and more used to horses, so it was great training/acclimation for them. win/win. Horse owner got to vent, dogs got sniffs in. It was my dog's 2nd time seeing a horse in his life and it only lasted like 2-3 seconds. Aww well..... Most people have been hella cool though, even when I'm in the wrong.

[dfsfilm]

sorry to stray off topic - but those are some awesome pit bull action shots, Deathcricket. i bring my pit on most of my adventures, excluding canyoneering. she is usually off leash but i always keep the leash in hand in case we pass large groups on those crowded so-cal trails.

68754

[JONBOYLEMON]

Same line of thought here as when it comes to my house.

Sure you can bang on the door or be trying to break into my house @ 2:00 AM and you wont get shot, get inside the house, all bets are off. City ordinance says you cant discharge a fire arm in city limits..... I bet I could get one to go off.

A few of my kids are terrified of dogs because of an aggresive dog experience. We have chickens and kids, so I am not real fond of dogs wandering around scarring or trying to eat either of them.

On that note though, I was awakened at 5:00 AM by a dog who had just slaughtered our flock of chickens. He was stuck in the coop and could not get out. My first thought was to take the dog fishing down by the lake, but in the end, I let him go on his way and didnt even mention it to the owners because I knew whos dog it was and didnt want to deal with it. They still have no idea the damage their dog did, & I will leave it that way. I love dogs and feel for people who love them and have them as pets and understand that they are family, but at the end of the day, I dont have a clue how nice your dog is, and I am not going to get bitten or let one of my kids get bit, before I find out that the dog is great with kids....

Moral of the story, pets are family, if you have out of control family members, maybe get a leash!

[D.O.N.E.]

pikan no worries. I have worked with a lot of rescue dogs so I can judge a dogs intentions fairly quick. If it was friendly I'd brush it off and let my dogs make a new friend. Puffing out my chest and being aggressive is hardly going to make the situation a good one.


what Bo described is one of the more effective ways to avoid an issue. IMO you'd have to be crazy to put a hand out, to punch, push, whatever, to an aggressive dog unless you wanted to become a chew toy. An aggressive dog is unreasonable and looking to cause harm. I would only put a hand out to an aggressive dog as a last resort. I think some folks mistake a dog who is simply alerting, 'OMG are you guys aware of this?! Stranger Danger!' With a dog who's really looking to be aggressive and gnaw on their arm. It doesn't take much to get an alerting dog to snap out of it. With a truly aggressive dog it's gonna take a lot and they're likely to bounce back from whatever you've done and just keep on keepin on especially if you reacted with violence.

nice pics of the dogs everyone!

[Scott Card]

I love dogs. I just buried my long-time family pet, a lab retriever mix. She was the best kid dog ever - so kind and patient with people. It was a sad day/week. I still miss her. That said, if a dog approaches me in an aggressive manner, I have no problem planting my size 13 boot right in its chops. Dogs are not children, they are not people. They are pets, companions, but still animals. (Does it bother anyone else that in recent TV commercials they are referring to pet owners and "Mother" or "Father" of the pet?)

[Scott P]

Speaking of ethics, check this out:

http://14ers.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=41245&p=499101#p499101 (http://14ers.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=41245&p=499101#p499101)

Apparently it's pretty bad if you read all the way through. It was enough for me to change the destination of our trip next week.

[Stray]

I am torn on this topic. It was the dog that made this canyoneering story so awesome: http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?23494-A-Sh***y-Trip-in-Heaps&p=450766&viewfull=1

On the other hand, a friend and I were doing Camel Toe (before we realized it is only a wading hole with a rappel), when my friend was suddenly charged by a strange woman's two large dogs. As he was standing on top of a 30 foot cliff, I was terrified for his life. Luckily he didn't flinch and they broke off their charge. The crazy woman was completely unapologetic (as a matter of fact, she "was going to report us for rappelling on
'wilderness' land").

On the third hand, I have a 5 1/2 pound mostly behaved Maltese who terrorizes labs and small children. I love to bring him. I only wish I had a dry bag that would fit him.

68854

[ratagonia]

Of all the dog mauling I've ever seen reported on tv. I've yet to hear a dog owner say--"thats one bad ass dog, he can eat a kid a day for breakfast and still need a snack, poodle, before lunch".

Most say about what you did.

I'm a dog guy, have been all my life. If your hiking with your dog, unleashed, in a national park area where dogs are restricted and your dog has a habit of charging people, don't expect nice.

And that was Bo's story at the beginning. It all boils down to smart handling and a bit of common sense. If you as a dog handler don't exhibit any, why do you expect someone attacked by your dog to do so?

I know--I know--He's a nice dog and wouldn't hurt anybody.....Save that line for the news reporters.

Me, agree with Kurty?

Yuppers, 100%.

Had a friend get her face torn up by "a cute little dog at the park". Missed her eye.

People bringing their dogs into places they don't belong => a very good argument for carrying a handgun in the backcountry. You guys watch South Park? "He was coming right at me!"

Tom :moses:

[ratagonia]

Pretty sure this topic gets a rise from most everyone, but I'm curious to see how people weigh in, or should I say, how people might weigh in? This spurns from another recent thread, and has been discussed (or rather over-discussed and beat to death) in many threads. What's your take?

I hiked the Subway 2 1/2 weeks ago. We ran into 3 hikers with their dog hiking up the Left Fork. The dog wasn't restrained and immediately confronted me with threatening snarls and wanted me to show fear so that he could take a hunk out of me while the woman owner was feebly shouting for "Duke" to stop it and come back. I stood my ground and showed no fear and stared "Duke" down as he seemed a bit taken by surprise! When the owner finally grabbed her dog by the collar and pullled it back. I explained that dogs are not allowed in The Subway and they were at risk of recieving a fine if the Rangers were to confront them. She said that she wasn't worried and let Duke go as they continued on their merry way.

OK....I know a lot of folks on this forum are contra the permit system, and may or may not really care, but I suggest this.......What if you had been me, and your kids were along for the hike...or lets say instead, you were me and you'd encountered this same scenario. How would you be thinking right now about the permit system? Is it there for a reason? Or should it just be a free for all? Whats the difference between just poaching, and poaching with your dog? How do I distinguish or create the line between whats acceptable or not?

Just curious!

I am surprised.

You're a nice guy and all, maybe too nice. (That's not the surprise).

You are also a VIP and associated in some way with the Park, and I think you had an obligation to drop a dime on 'em. I would have. Sounds like the rangers would have had plenty of time to get there on a timely basis and hang in the parking lot (like they often do), since you were going out and they were going in.

Jus' sayin'...

Tom

[mcweyen]

If a dog is going to be truly aggressive to me and it's going to be a straight up fight, I'm going to everything in my power to absolutely kill it. End its' f***ing life as soon as possible. My general thought is that I could do so with my bare hands (if necessary) to a significant portion of dogs out there, one on one anyways. This is not a scenario I want to have to run into. When I was young, my older sister was attacked by the neighbor dog. My Dad loaded the dog up, took it to the local shooting range and blew its head off. That's my opinion of what should happen to seriously aggressive dogs. My dog (when she was a puppy) was attacked by a loose, larger dog on my front lawn and I happened to be watching her. I grabbed a screw driver, stabbed that dog to death and took it out to the desert and dumped it. F*** that dog. It's dead. I look out for my own.

As for how I deal with my dog... if there is going to be a lot of other dogs on course, I keep her leashed. If there will be minimal or no other dogs, she gets to run, as long as the trail allows for it. She's always well behaved with other dogs (mainly because she seems almost completely unconcerned about other dogs) and people so I'm never concerned. I'm not going to take her somewhere she isn't allowed either. I expect the same of other people and by far the most people out there seem to understand to do the same. The topic seems to be the slim few who don't. My thought... they're going to have to learn the hard way! That loose dog that attacked the wrong puppy... well, maybe the owners learned the hard way?

[Bo_Beck]

I am surprised.

You're a nice guy and all, maybe too nice. (That's not the surprise).

You are also a VIP and associated in some way with the Park, and I think you had an obligation to drop a dime on 'em. I would have. Sounds like the rangers would have had plenty of time to get there on a timely basis and hang in the parking lot (like they often do), since you were going out and they were going in.

Jus' sayin'...

Tom

No phone service at top of the hill. Did see LE when driving back to Springdale and mentioned what I'd encountered. Don't know if anything ever elapsed?

I'm a dog guy too. Have three little critters, Baby, Bebe, and Hiney! But if this dog had moved in for the bite, my right hand with a rock in it would have softened it's head up a bit. What disturbed me more than the dog was the non-chalant attitude of the owner. Her head might be the head that needs a good crack!

[DesertDuke]

......while the woman owner was feebly shouting for "Duke" to stop it and come back........ She said that she wasn't worried and let Duke go as they continued on their merry way.

I think ALL of you are missing his very relevant point. He means that it is unethical to NAME a dog Duke. That name is clearly reserved for fly fishing, backpacking, snowboard geniuses....not dogs.

On a bit of a tangent, I recently spoke with an epidemiologist that told me domestic dogs on trails are responsible for most giardia being spread in backcountry water. I don't know what data he got that from. Just an interesting note.