How to Ascend a 500 Foot Rope

[Slot Machine]

While looking up at the nearly vertical walls that surround the last rappel of Kolob Canyon, I remembered someone telling me about ascending one of those walls, and wondered, how??

What equiptment would make this doable; nay, enjoyable?

What is the proper way to protect your rope (at the top) from abrasion/cutting?

What kind of rope would be ideal for such a task?

Are there tricks to getting heavy packs up walls like that efficiently?

Bob

[Byron]

Nice though, but man...I don't know about that one!

Make a beeline (pun!) out of Kolob, eh? About the most bomber ascenders I know of are my Petzls and daisy chains. Imagine that, 400 feet up standing on daisies! I'd be up for that!!! I know that SAR have some devices that are much more heavy duty, like full on pulleys.

I would think that even with 300 pounds at the bottom to weigh it down, the rope would still move too much once you got up over a couple hundred feet?

Maybe have someone from up top rap down to make 2 or 3 anchor stations? The route certainly would have to be scouted out for ledges. Maybe practice on a two hundred footer? Dude, you really don't like that MIA route, do ya? :mrgreen:

[nelsonccc]

Ascending isn't that bad unless its overhanging. Ascending when you can lean away from the wall is not that hard. We rigged a 300 footer tied to a 200 footer off the point of rock between the chute and the north fork of oak to jug out of after doing the eye. Takes each person about 30-40 min to do a 200 footer as long as its rigged right. When ascending you tie off periodically and the hardest part is the lack of weight as you slide the ascenders up after each fresh tie off. If I remember right that wall is less then 90 degrees. We used a 4' square of carpet tied off to a tree to avoid core shorting the rope at the edge. For packs you could easily haul them all up at once with a z rig.

Takes practice but once its set up right it goes fast. Just avoid over hanging jugging, trust me its pure misery.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

[Byron]

Carpet is a great idea...I was thinking perhaps a section of water hose.

[Slot Machine]

I would think that even with 300 pounds at the bottom to weigh it down, the rope would still move too much once you got up over a couple hundred feet?

Maybe have someone from up top rap down to make 2 or 3 anchor stations? The route certainly would have to be scouted out for ledges. Maybe practice on a two hundred footer? Dude, you really don't like that MIA route, do ya? :mrgreen:

I chatted with Steve, reflection (sorry, I don't know his last name), about this. He seems to enjoy ascending, and he planted the idea in my mind. I hope he chimes in on this thread.

He said that ascending the walls of Oak Creek (and possibly Kolob?) was a great option for escape. Much more enjoyable than the MIA.

After looking at those walls, and after suffering up the MIA, it seems like a resonable option. Yes, I hate that exit. :nod:

I'm not picturing clearly "moving too much" with a 300 lb weight on the bottom of the rope. Moving where? Why weight it?

Please forgive my newbie questions. I have very little ascending experience.

[Byron]

http://ignus.org/ignus12/images/events/jumaring.png

If the bottom end isn't weighted, the rope with flop around (move) at your feet. It's fine for short ascents, but certainly not big ones. I'm no expert on this stuff either. I've only used my jumars a few times, and it was Kelsey that taught me the "weigh the rope with a pack trick". It helped, a lot. This picture is the rope flopping around.

[Mojave Silence]

For long free-hanging 'ascends', one big issue is spinning. With less than perfect technique it's easy to develop a spin that is hard to stop. (especially if there is strong wind or waterfall splash hitting you)

[burnsdye]

What equiptment would make this doable; nay, enjoyable?
You will need either a frog rig or a rope walking system. The frog rig is a little more beginner friendly. The rope walking system is more complicated but allows for a faster ascent. There is plenty of information online for both of these systems.


What is the proper way to protect your rope (at the top) from abrasion/cutting?
You can use a commercial rope protector or a pack or a jacket. Just make sure your protector is secured. The carpet idea above is a great idea too if you can haul it.


What kind of rope would be ideal for such a task?
You ABSOLUTELY need a static rope. Never use a dynamic rope for ascending more than a few feet. I would recommend an 11mm Edelweiss that is designed for caving. It's the most affordable I've found.


Are there tricks to getting heavy packs up walls like that efficiently?
My personal preference is to use a cow tail to suspend the pack from my harness.

Now take this advice with a grain of salt. I've done a lot of ascending but never one that is 500 feet tall. Neffs Cave, which I have done, requires about 900 feet of ascending total. It took us 5 hours to drop the 1,100 feet and go back up. Here are a few points to keep in mind.

Rope elongation is measured as a percent of the length. With a longer rope, you'll have a lot more bounce. Even with an 11mm static rope, you'll probably have 3 or 4 feet of bounce every time you jug. This creates a force on the anchor that is at least double but more than likely 3 or 4 times the regular force that you would create if just rappelling. When ascending, make sure the anchor is bomber.
Overhanging ascents (where you're not touching the wall) are actually a lot easier to ascend because you can use both your feet for just ascending. Spin doesn't matter one bit.
I would use a separate webbing loop for each foot and not a daisy chain.
The hardest part of the ascent is the very beginning. To get started, jump up and slide your chest ascender as high as it will go. This will help weight the rope and prevent the 20 feet of initial ascending just to get off the ground. For everyone but the last person, have someone else put tension on the bottom of the rope. This will prevent from rope from lifting up when the ascender slides up the rope.
One of the biggest newbie mistakes when ascending is to rely too much on your arms. When you do the stand-up motion, get your feet as directly below your center of mass as you can, not out in front. That way your legs do most of the work and you can save your arm strength.
If you have two ascenders (a frog rig) or 3 ascenders (a rope walking system) then there is no need to do periodic tie offs. In fact, I would recommend against it.

[DOSS]

having ascended both freehanging and against a wall I prefer free hanging every day of the week. Against a wall you are basically walking up and pulling with your arms to move up the rope where free hanging with a frog system it is 80% leg work.. you just have to stand up.. The more rope below you the easier it gets, if you are smooth there is little bounce in the system but there is some (again the more rope you have below you the less elongation you have to deal with).

[Slot Machine]

Thanks Jeremy, and everyone, for the thoughtful and informative replies. :gents: :gents: :gents:

To summarize Jeremy, you would recommend 500 feet of 11 mm Edelweiss, do it in one straight shot, with a walking system, pack cowtailed to your harness, rope protector at the top, tied off to a bomber anchor, someone weighting the bottom. Correct?

I'm not against buying a 11mm rope, however, I'd never use it for anything but ascending. It would be nice to buy a rope that I could cut up later and use for canyoneering. What are your thoughts on using an 8mm Double Sheath Canyon Pro rope for the task? Or even an Imlay rope?

*glances knowingly at Tom* :mrgreen:

[nelsonccc]

having ascended both freehanging and against a wall I prefer free hanging every day of the week. Against a wall you are basically walking up and pulling with your arms to move up the rope where free hanging with a frog system it is 80% leg work.. you just have to stand up.. The more rope below you the easier it gets, if you are smooth there is little bounce in the system but there is some (again the more rope you have below you the less elongation you have to deal with).

Maybe we're talking about different systems. I come from a big wall climbing background with each handled ascender rigged with a daisy to your waist and a webbing aider hanging down from the ascender. There is no arm work. You step up, slide the unweighted ascender up then sit back. then you slide the lower ascender up. then stand up, repeat. It's literally like walking up the wall. Made easier by your toes on the wall. The image below which I just pilfered from SuperTopo shows the system I'm talking about. The frog technique mentioned above is generally only used on overhanging rock. Also as I understand it that the frog way induces a lot more bounce into the system than the normal jugging technique.

Typical big wall way
68630

frog way
68631

[burnsdye]

What are your thoughts on using an 8mm Double Sheath Canyon Pro rope for the task? Or even an Imlay rope?
The 11mm Edelweiss rope I was referring to has an elongation of 3% at 150 kg (330 lb) according to http://www.edelweiss-ropes.com/en/ropes/26-speleo-11-mm.html
The 8mm Double Sheath Canyon Pro has an elongation of "low elongation" according to http://www.backcountry.com/blue-water-canyon-pro-dual-sheath-rope-8mm
The 8mm Blue Water Canyon Pro has an elongation of 2% at 300 lb-force according to http://www.backcountry.com/blue-water-canyon-pro-rope-8mm
According to http://www.imlaycanyongear.com/ropes.php, Imlay ropes have the following elongation "At bodyweight (200 lbs), all our static ropes have a stretch of 1/2 to 1%."

Conclusion: the Blue Water and Imlay ropes will bounce less than the Edelweiss rope I previously recommended. I hereby take back my previous recommendation.

To figure out how much bounce you will have, you use the spring equation F = k*x
Where:
F = force
k = spring constant (*idealized)
x = stretch

*at low elongation, the spring constant is mostly constant. However, at high elongation, it can vary significantly. This is similar to when you stretch a rubber band and when you stretch it far enough it's "stretchyness" changes.

The force that you apply to the rope is equal to your body weight multiplied by your acceleration (F = m*a). The acceleration depends on how jumpy you are. A smooth climber will probably generate 1.5 to 2 g's of acceleration minimum. If you walk up to a rope, grab on, and then quickly pull your feet up, this will generate a force equal to 2 times your body weight.

Put it all together:
A 180 lb person will generate a force of roughly 360 lbf (@ 2 g's). The k for the 8mm Blue Water Canyon Pro is idealized as k = F/x = 300 lbf / 2% = 150 lbf/%
Therefore x = F/k = 360 lbf / (150 lbf/%) = 2.4% elongation
2.4% elongation * 500 ft = 12 feet of stretch in the rope

What does this mean in real life? It means that when you walk up to a 500' Canyon Pro rope and start ascending, you will have to climb up 6 feet of rope (1 g for your body weight) before you even leave the ground and that you will have to climb another 6 feet of rope before you stop hitting the ground on your down bounce. As you are climbing, you will be yo-yo-ing 6 feet up and down, which is quite unsettling for most people. It also creates considerable wear on the rope where it touches the rock.

How can you reduce the bounce? There are two ways.

Reduce the length of the rope by setting intermediate anchors. If you cut the length in half, you will cut the bounce in half.
Get a stiffer rope. You have to be really careful here though because stiffer ropes often have lower breaking strength and they can result in really high forces from small falls.


Another thing to consider is statistics. The longer the rope, the weaker it is, always, even on brand new ropes. That is because there is a higher probability of there being a "weak link" in a long rope than a short rope. It's usually a non-issue, but keep that in the back of your mind if you every try to push the limits of your rope.

Another recommendation that I just though of is to use a Petzl Croll for your chest ascender, not a Petzl Basic. They may look the same, but the Croll has a twist that lets it sit flush against your chest. You get a much cleaner ascent that way.

[burnsdye]

Maybe we're talking about different systems.
While we are listing systems, here is the rope walking system too:
68632

[DOSS]

Maybe we're talking about different systems. I come from a big wall climbing background with each handled ascender rigged with a daisy to your waist and a webbing aider hanging down from the ascender. There is no arm work. You step up, slide the unweighted ascender up then sit back. then you slide the lower ascender up. then stand up, repeat. It's literally like walking up the wall. Made easier by your toes on the wall. The image below which I just pilfered from SuperTopo shows the system I'm talking about. The frog technique mentioned above is generally only used on overhanging rock. Also as I understand it that the frog way induces a lot more bounce into the system than the normal jugging technique.



For some reason I was thinking much less vertical where it is difficult to use a normal jugging technique or frog.. think slabby ;)

[ratagonia]

having ascended both freehanging and against a wall I prefer free hanging every day of the week. Against a wall you are basically walking up and pulling with your arms to move up the rope where free hanging with a frog system it is 80% leg work.. you just have to stand up.. The more rope below you the easier it gets, if you are smooth there is little bounce in the system but there is some (again the more rope you have below you the less elongation you have to deal with).

Need to work on your technique, Doss. The Kolob waterfall looks perfect - 600 feet of smooth, clean 80/85 degree rock. Couldn't be easier. In this case, several different techniques will work just fine - all can be driven at the rope-climber's aerobic limit. 80% leg, all the time.

One great things about this kind of climb is that you don't need a 600 foot rope. When climbing a rope (at least climbing style) moving past knots is not a problem.

Tom

[ratagonia]

What are your thoughts on using an 8mm Double Sheath Canyon Pro rope for the task?

You mean, Dual Sheath? Meaning a sheath that is half Technora and half Polyester?

http://bluewaterropes.com/



8mm Canyon Pro DS (Dual Sheath) is a combination of a hybrid design polyester/Technora sheath coupled with a 100% Dyneema core. What this gives you is an extremely lightweight, strong rope with a highly cut resistant sheath. Part #526000DS.

Available in:
200' and 600' Lengths.

Elongation:
@ 300 lbf. = 1.4%
@ 600 lbf. = 2.6%
@ 1000 lbf. = 3.2%



Diameter:
8mm


Grams Per Meter:
41


Tensile Strength:
5,000 lbf. (22.2 kN)


Sheath Mass:
58%










"Double Sheath" kinda implies something different. Like, two sheaths.

Tom

[ratagonia]

Another thing to consider is statistics. The longer the rope, the weaker it is, always, even on brand new ropes. That is because there is a higher probability of there being a "weak link" in a long rope than a short rope. It's usually a non-issue, but keep that in the back of your mind if you every try to push the limits of your rope.



Some good info there, Burnsdye...

True, however...

I have more information on this than you do, since I have a bunch of datapoints on rope strength, supplied by my manufacturer. It is remarkable to me how TIGHT the spread of strengths is, on static ropes. Of course, when I go look for the actual data, it is hiding well.

So yes, like a chain of 100 biners - only as strong as the weakest biner.

compared to a chain of 1000 biners - only as strong as the weakest biner, and only a 10% chance of it being as weak as the first chain tested.

Tom

[Brian in SLC]

Ropes schmopes...climbers ascend on dynamic ropes almost exclusively. And, often. And, fast.

Go git 'em, CMac:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vkiG2K9cFg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwv9QsE8EC0

A few years back a few of us broke up into two groups, descended a fork of Oak Creek, fixing all the rappels, then, hiked to the bottom of the other fork, traded car keys, and jugged up. Was pretty fun and no hike out the MIA (ha ha).

I think there's a thread or two on the types of rope ascending techniques. I've used the Yo Yo aka the RADS system which I like as its easier for me and uses gear I already own (helpful if you're a climber and not a caver). Its easy to learn and employ.

For edge protection, folks use all kinds of stuff. I think BW used to make a rope sheath. Spirol or some such is another. I've seen folks use a length of leather (on a tether...hey, that could be a rapp'ing song...ha ha, yo).

For hauling packs, get a durable pack (!). A progress capturing pulley works great, and, body haul. Wall Hauler, Mini/Pro/Micro Traxion, etc.

Really helps to go out and dial whatever system you decide to employ.

There was a rumor of a set of anchor stations somewhere optimal for the jug up to the rim near the exit of Kolob Canyon...anyone?

[Brian in SLC]

Double post

[Slot Machine]

Great post Brian! Thanks for sharing. Your depth of experience is readily apparent.

Time to buy some toys... :mrgreen:

[Exergy]

What are your thoughts on using an 8mm Double Sheath Canyon Pro rope for the task?


I'd test the compatibility of your ascenders on a shorter piece of 8mm before springing for the full 5-hundy. While making our way out of Boomerang Cave on a 9mm Canyon Pro, we had a set of ascenders rated for 8mm that kept slipping and ripping the sheath to shreds. Talk about the shivers!

[Slot Machine]

I'd test the compatibility of your ascenders on a shorter piece of 8mm before springing for the full 5-hundy. While making our way out of Boomerang Cave on a 9mm Canyon Pro, we had a set of ascenders rated for 8mm that kept slipping and ripping the sheath to shreds. Talk about the shivers!

Sounds like a good idea.

What brand of ascenders did the shredding? Do you think that other brands would do the same thing?

[hank moon]

Another thing to consider is statistics. The longer the rope, the weaker it is, always, even on brand new ropes. That is because there is a higher probability of there being a "weak link" in a long rope than a short rope. It's usually a non-issue, but keep that in the back of your mind if you every try to push the limits of your rope.

This is not true of rated strength, though perhaps it is theoretically true of actual strength (which should always be greater than rated with a U.S. rope manufacturer). I suppose the "weak link" you refer to is a splice, either in the sheath or in the core. PMI (for example) can make a rope of up to around 700' without sheath or core splices. After that, core splices come into play, but they are configured to have no effect on rope strength. Not sure when sheath splices come into play, but they also will have no effect on strength. Not a concern.

A simple jugging system (called the 'Yosemite System' - what Byron and others have mentioned) can be made that is intuitive and works very well on slabby to near-vertical walls (but is beastly in free air). Most of the ascent out of Chute Canyon is steep-slabby, with a few free air sections to struggle through. It will pay to play and practice with an expert jugger to help fine tune your system. As always, practice in a safe environment (extensively) before heading out into "real" terrain.

[Exergy]

Sounds like a good idea.

What brand of ascenders did the shredding? Do you think that other brands would do the same thing?

The guy bought them just for this trip and I forget what brand they were. After a few ~2' slip/shreds and some double-checking the obvious decision was to not chance it so we just shared a compatible set.

[hank moon]

The guy bought them just for this trip and I forget what brand they were. After a few ~2' slip/shreds and some double-checking the obvious decision was to not chance it so we just shared a compatible set.

Bet they were BD NForce - slippage is a well-known problem with that model (Google it). To be avoided.

http://www.mountainproject.com/v/bd-nforce/106598255#a_106598663

[ratagonia]

While making our way out of Boomerang Cave on a 9mm Canyon Pro, ...

If it was "Canyon Pro", then it was 8mm. If it was 9mm, it was probably the BW "Canyon" rope.

As 8mm ropes go, the Canyon Pro tends to be rather small.

Tom

[reflection]

OK Sir; You travel down Kolob technical and then down the alley then turn the corner, then march further and then march up the MIA exit and road; this with wet ropes, wet wet suits and other gear. Do the trip 4-5 times, then do Boundary 4-5 times (sneak in a few Oak Creek Trips) and walla, the "other options" mindset grabs hold. FYI there is an "up" route after descending Kolob that is about 2x180 (feet and knees against the wall); One has to ascend a short route to get to this spot. Whatever, I'll not describe further. Know and realize that "planned ascending" more than 30-40 ft. requires a) proper fitness b) proper gear c) proper technique and once on rope, very efficient travel. Relatively "easy" going up (without gear), but the game changes when you are packing wet wet suits and some ropes. Caving, climbing, canyoneering. Caving requires ascending, climbing often does, and canyoneering - well, most don't do it. Planned ascending depending on how often one does it, the level of "ascent" and the weight one is packing, all factor in on the dimension of what to use and how to use it. Active climbers will use their climbing gear, and cavers, their gear...and then what to use after descending a canyon? I'd NOT buy any gear right away (you may end up with something you don't use or that is not efficient. ) Myself I have gear for emergency ascent, for casual ascent and then a whole other set of gear for planned ascents that often go 300, 350, 400 or more (in segments). People like to talk about "their gear" and how it's so effective and just right". Careful Bob, the siren sound may lead you in a direction (spending money) that is not efficient - in canyons. If you like, I'd be happy to lend any gear and show you techniques, and then YOU can decide what works best for you, in whatever circumstance. And then after that, you can walk down the gear alley and stock up on this or that site, or I could just let you borrow a full ascending set so you could practice. Interesting, Kolob, MIA...I did MIA a number of times, then "that old lady" was off the radar the rest of my canyoneering career....why? when I could simply ascend the canyon (or a side route); and start later in the day and get back to camp earlier in the day; and not have to cuss about the sweet MIA. (and is it easier - best - to go up a wall, or up a free hang, and does it matter? If you use the right technique and have the right gear, it mostly doesn't matter. Getting up, over and around chock stones, or other impediments. That's when gear, technique come into play and things matter. (Ooops, let the "pros" guide you on this - I guess, they have all the answers, I guess)

[reflection]

OH? Forgot, the rope you use for ascending? Most efficient to use the rope you are descending - or one similar to it. We often use rope protectors on edges and most often use 8.5 and 9mm ropes, to go down and back up. At some point all ropes have to be pulled back up and packed back to a vehicle. Other than a stunt rap on a wall close to a vehicle, I'd not bother with anything larger than 9mm, AND when ascending the sheath/hand of the rope can make a difference. Some ropes are great for going down, but not so hot for going up. I've got my favorites (for going up) but I'll not spill that on this site, may offend some. Sterling, Blue Water, Imlay, PMI....there are some ropes in that mix that I would and wouldn't use. Tom's 8.5 or whatever Canyon Fire, fine/nice for going down and sturdy and OK for going up too - and the price is good also. And I've ascended on plenty of 8mm ropes too - but only if the line is NOT rubbing on an overhang, a wall or chockstone. When ascending, the rope, saws back and forth and if the sheath is buried against an edge (say your prayers, if you have not protected that line.)

[Slot Machine]

Careful Bob, the siren sound may lead you in a direction (spending money) that is not efficient - in canyons. If you like, I'd be happy to lend any gear and show you techniques, and then YOU can decide what works best for you, in whatever circumstance.

Steve, what a generous offer! Thank you, we would love to learn from you! Tony and I have spent much time discussing your enthusiasm for ascending; wondering how you do it. I'll figure out a day that we can get together and send a PM very soon.

Also, thanks for the info in the posts above. :2thumbs: Luckily, I haven't cracked the wallet open yet...