Pine Creek For Kids?

[Sandstone Addiction]

With summer winding down, I want to spend a few days in Zion with the family and Pine Creek has been on the agenda for a long time now.

From what I've read and from the pictures I've seen, the only thing that has me concerned is the final rap. Getting on rappel sounds pretty sketchy and not sure if it would be wise to take my 3 boys. The actual rappel doesn't worry me much as we are prepared to tandem rap, lower, or top belay, but the part that has me a little spooked is the 35' walk along the "ledge" to the anchors.

So, am I worried about nothing? Or, should we look at another option? I appreciate all advice...thank you.

[oldno7]

I've seen hundreds of kids in Pine Cr.
If your kids are controllable, the walk around to the last rap shouldn't be a problem.
With kids(and some adult's), I usually tether myself to the anchor and assist them getting on rappel.
We did have to assist a young lady a couple years ago from a group in front of us, who got her hair
stuck in her rappel device, about a 1/3 of the way down.
To her credit, she was calm and took direction very well.
I'd rig up a contingency, if it were me.

[qedcook]

How old are the kids?

[Iceaxe]

It's not the walk to the final anchor that is unnerving.... it's the start of the rappel because you must step into space and are instantly free hanging. I have seen this rap scare many adults. It depends more on your kids comfort level with instantly going free 90' above the deck.

Personally I saveD Pine Creek until my kids had a couple years and 20 or so canyons under their belt. When I finally took them through they loved it and had no issues.

YMMV


Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[Sandstone Addiction]

How old are the kids?


Boys are 12, 10, and 6. I'm more worried about my 12 year old than the younger two, he has a pretty good fear of heights.

[Slot Machine]

Boys are 12, 10, and 6. I'm more worried about my 12 year old than the younger two, he has a pretty good fear of heights.

I'm with Ice on this one. I'd keep doing other canyons until you have nothing to worry about. Sliding off the "diving board" and swinging out over the abyss is a somewhat unusual and intimdating move.

I can't imagine taking a 6 year old through there... even a very brave 6 year old. But I'm no guide. YMMV.

[Iceaxe]

he has a pretty good fear of heights.

He is not going to like that final Pine Creek rap. And if you scare him to bad he will not want to go again.



Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[Canyonater]

With summer winding down, I want to spend a few days in Zion with the family and Pine Creek has been on the agenda for a long time now.

From what I've read and from the pictures I've seen, the only thing that has me concerned is the final rap. Getting on rappel sounds pretty sketchy and not sure if it would be wise to take my 3 boys. The actual rappel doesn't worry me much as we are prepared to tandem rap, lower, or top belay, but the part that has me a little spooked is the 35' walk along the "ledge" to the anchors.

So, am I worried about nothing? Or, should we look at another option? I appreciate all advice...thank you.


I don't recall it being a ledge to the anchors....the only time you get to see the bottom is when you are pretty much at the anchor. I for one felt this rap was the easiest. The start couldn't be easier....the anchor is right next to you and you simply scoot your butt off the ledge and you're gently hanging, no swinging or nothing. It's not awkward at all vs. other kinds of starts where the anchor is horizontal and you're leaning over the edge trying to keep your balance while feeling the pull on your body. I went with a 15 year old who is notoriously timid on raps and he had the least trouble with this one because all he had to do was hang there and go down. No navigating a line, no watching your foot placement, no pulling left or right, no transitions to overhang, no gaps etc....

[Canyonater]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhVdXgyQvMo&hd=1

I dug up some footage of my first time through, shows the walk up to the anchor and getting on rappel. The anchor is about 1ft out from the edge. You can also provide a belay easily from the top or lower them. But ultimately its up to you to decide if its appropriate for your kids....

To clear up any premature judgments on the video......I was the last one down, everyone else went single line on the biner block and pull side was still up top in the bag. The main rope is only 120ft so obviously I need to tie a pull side. I drop the pull side down cause Im obviously not gonna deploy it while on rappel and then I head back up to do a camp check, video shows me coming back to the anchor. I know im gonna be using a gopro (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p5197.m570.l1313&_nkw=gopro&_sacat=See-All-Categories) with my left hand and wont be able to unclip a tether once on the rope so I forgo using my tether which was on me (I don't carry it just cause I like extra weight) and as a measure of safety I connect to the line farther back from the edge. Knowing I have no safety I take a good amount of time quadruple checking everything before I load the anchor. This was not shown on the video, if you wanna see it let me know, its a long boring section I figure I'd edit out. The block was already rigged, I do not want to go double line on a knot and worry about both lines going through my ATS cleanly while holding a gopro in one hand. Yeah I could've skipped using the gopro (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p5197.m570.l1313&_nkw=gopro&_sacat=See-All-Categories) but I felt the risk was mitigated with extra caution and verification on my part. And in the end I prefer single strand.....nothing wrong with that.

[Iceaxe]

The problem with the walk up is not the walk up to the anchor, but with the final section when you are walking down canyon in the stream course. Many of you probably don't know this, but you are actually walking on top of debris that is suspended 100' above the canyon bottom. Occasionally holes open up in this debris and you can see the canyon bottom far below. One of these days that entire section of streambed is going to fall.

:cool2:

[Iceaxe]

I dug up some footage of my first time through,

I noticed you are using single rope technique with a biner block and you have your pull chord deployed. Just for the record, this is exactly what caused the girl to fall from that ledge in 2008. She clipped the wrong side of the biner block and she did not have a safety tether, which I also noticed you were not using.

2008 Pine Creek Accident
http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?31351

[qedcook]

single rope technique with a biner block

The only time I've found this technique helpful is when I know the rope doesn't pull well. Always have the first person down do a test pull!

[oldno7]

The only time I've found this technique helpful is when I know the rope doesn't pull well. Always have the first person down do a test pull!

I don't think you're understanding what Shane is telling you.
There is NO sense in using SRT if you throw all your rope down.
One of the idea's behind SRT is to have at least half your rope still at the top for what if's....
If your going to throw both ends down, you just as well rap double and alleviate the potential for confusion, as Shane mentioned,getting on the blocked side of rope by mistake,is one risk.
If you're concerned with a pull, (which you never should be on the last rap in Pine Cr)., test the pull just prior to the last person getting on rappel.
The last person should have the smarts to re-rig if necessary and split the rope, while descending, as necessary, for a good pull.

[flatiron]

I noticed you are using single rope technique with a biner block and you have your pull chord deployed. Just for the record, this is exactly what caused the girl to fall from that ledge in 2008. She clipped the wrong side of the biner block and she did not have a safety tether, which I also noticed you were not using.



I noticed also. You just reach over and grab the 'correct' line, but ohhh it would be so easy to grab wrong and without a safety? I would think even with all adults a safety tether should be automatic. 90% of accidents are human error. Last rap, fun canyon, maybe tired or cold, thinking about photo ops. :eek2: Again, why single rappel with both ropes hanging there?? :facepalm1: And yes like Shane pointed 1st time I did last rap of PC I realized we were walking over platform of debris that could easily collapse - food for thought!

[taatmk]

The actual rappel doesn't worry me much as we are prepared to tandem rap, lower, or top belay, but the part that has me a little spooked is the 35' walk along the "ledge" to the anchors.

For me, its the "three" part of the equation that would bother me. Helping, managing one boy along the ledge would be ok, but trying to do it and control their activities with three would create a challenge in my own opinion. If there was a one on one adult ratio, that would make it better.

Six years of age may be a tad bit young to do Pine Creek....just my two cents.

[xxnitsuaxx]

Now I'm curious. Anyone have pictures of that last section with holes in it or collapsed? Tom? Shane? Tanya?

[canyonguru]

I personaly think the a the biner block is way over used. I only only use it if
1. i have a long rap and i need my two other ropes as a pull line extending the knot down and over the edge.
2. 1 is really the only reason.

I always bring enought rope to double down everything. i agree with the coments above about haveing both lines down with a biner block pretty pointless. I also always always always tie into the anchor when riging my self into the rope i then weight the rope and then unclip. This way there is no way you can fall becuase you are tied in and your gear has been weighted and checked. Simple things like this will save your life some day.

As for the kids i also agree with shane, stick to smaller canyons first. I have seen the hole of death right where you cross over the little chock stone onto the ledge. its a long way down there. plenty big enough for anyone to fall through. Not sure what it looks like this year.

[flatiron]

So, am I worried about nothing? Or, should we look at another option? I appreciate all advice...thank you.

Back to original - My personal rule of thumb. 1st time thru a canyon, no kids or newbies. Especially if wet (I'm guessing PC full of water from monsoon). Cold water can change everything. Maybe 1 newbie if I have a good experienced group, but not multiples. Way too much to watch, help, etc. If there are any problems, a kid or newbie just adds to the problem since they cannot help in any way. IMHO.

[flatiron]

I personaly think the a the biner block is way over used. I only only use it if
1. i have a long rap and i need my two other ropes as a pull line extending the knot down and over the edge.
2. 1 is really the only reason.

I always bring enought rope to double down everything. i agree with the coments above about haveing both lines down with a biner block pretty pointless. I also always always always tie into the anchor when riging my self into the rope i then weight the rope and then unclip. This way there is no way you can fall becuase you are tied in


1 last thing - saw that also. Get a personal anchor of some kind and use it at the anchor so there is NO chance of slipping off. Unclip after double checking your rappel rigging. :nod:

[Iceaxe]

I personaly think the a the biner block is way over used. I only only use it if
1. i have a long rap and i need my two other ropes as a pull line extending the knot down and over the edge.
2. 1 is really the only reason.

When you do Class C canyons you MUST use a biner block and SRT. The reason is you must set your rope to the correct length of the rappel. If you toss extra rope over the edge it will wash down in the current and get tangled and snagged under rocks and debris.

It's not much of a problem on the Colorado Plateau where even our Class C canyons are usually pretty mild, but toss extra rope over the edge in a big high flowing current and soon enough your rope will be snagged underwater where you can't retrieve it.

The SRT technique came from the your-a-peein's and their flowing canyons.

[moab mark]

I would not be taking kids that small thru pine creek, especially if you haven't been.
Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk 2

[moab mark]

If I took small kids I would meat anchor from up where everyone stages and let them go over the edge standing.
The current anchor is not in a good location for assisting newbs over the edge. Me do not like that rappel.
Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk 2

[Canyonater]

I noticed you are using single rope technique with a biner block and you have your pull chord deployed. Just for the record, this is exactly what caused the girl to fall from that ledge in 2008. She clipped the wrong side of the biner block and she did not have a safety tether, which I also noticed you were not using.

2008 Pine Creek Accident
http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?31351

Ok, here I go having to defend against technique critiques:duel:.....I was the last one down, everyone else went single line on the biner block and pull side was still up top in the bag. The main rope is only 120ft so obviously I need to tie a pull side. I drop the pull side down cause Im obviously not gonna deploy it while on rappel and then I head back up to do a camp check, video shows me coming back to the anchor. I know im gonna be using a gopro (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p5197.m570.l1313&_nkw=gopro&_sacat=See-All-Categories) with my left hand and wont be able to unclip a tether once on the rope so I forgo using my tether which was on me (I don't carry it just cause I like extra weight) and as a measure of safety I connect to the line farther back from the edge. Knowing I have no safety I take a good amount of time quadruple checking everything before I load the anchor. This was not shown on the video, if you wanna see it let me know, its a long boring section I figure I'd edit out. The block was already rigged and I quadruple checked it, I suppose you'd rather me go double on a knot and worry about both lines going through my ATS cleanly while holding a gopro in one hand? Is that any better? Yeah I could've skipped using the gopro but I felt the risk was mitigated wih extra caution and verification on my part. And in the end I prefer single strand.....nothing wrong with that.

[Canyonater]

I don't think you're understanding what Shane is telling you.
There is NO sense in using SRT if you throw all your rope down.
One of the idea's behind SRT is to have at least half your rope still at the top for what if's....
If your going to throw both ends down, you just as well rap double and alleviate the potential for confusion, as Shane mentioned,getting on the blocked side of rope by mistake,is one

If you're concerned with a pull, (which you never should be on the last rap in Pine Cr)., test the pull just prior to the last person getting on rappel.
The last person should have the smarts to re-rig if necessary and split the rope, while descending, as necessary, for a good pull.

Obviously you havent watched the video but I didnt have a single rope long enough to go double. Im not gonna rap on a bend just for the sake of going double strand. I was last one down so obviously I gotta toss all my line down or is there a miraculous way to toss the pull side down once im at the bottom?!?

[oldno7]

No--I obviously did watch the video...

If you read who i quoted and responded to, it was gedcock, he wrote this:

"The only time I've found this technique helpful is when I know the rope doesn't pull well. Always have the first person down do a test pull!"

Which is very bad advice!!

[oldno7]

On another note--- A biner block is NOT and never has been a contingency set up...
It can be converted to one if you have the know how(which takes time)
If you want a contingency set up--use a contingency set up..
If you have an experienced group and just want to rappel single strand, use a biner/knot block.
Trying to figure out how to lower someone, hanging in the air on the last rap in Pine Cr. while using a biner block....
Well lets just say I hope you don't also have a knot, tying your 2 ropes together, also on the blocked side!!!
It's all about understanding the tools in your toolbox, not just saying you have them, cause you got them on the internet.
Hands on experience and repetition, is the gold standard.........

[Bo_Beck]

No--I obviously did watch the video...

If you read who i quoted and responded to, it was gedcock, he wrote this:

"The only time I've found this technique helpful is when I know the rope doesn't pull well. Always have the first person down do a test pull!"

Which is very bad advice!!

I've used this technique numerous times both SRT and DRT over the years. I'd better rethink I guess?!

[oldno7]

I've used this technique numerous times both SRT and DRT over the years. I'd better rethink I guess?!

You need to re-think having the first person do a test pull?
I was always of the impression that if you are blocking one side of a rope, it was a good idea to leave the other half of the rope on top of the rappel for what if's?
So a test pull prior to the last person on rappel would sound prudent, rather than tossing down both strands on a "blocked" rope....:ne_nau:

[Bo_Beck]

You need to re-think having the first person do a test pull?
I was always of the impression that if you are blocking one side of a rope, it was a good idea to leave the other half of the rope on top of the rappel for what if's?
So a test pull prior to the last person on rappel would sound prudent, rather than tossing down both strands on a "blocked" rope....:ne_nau:

Last person down. Able to get the pull side to someone standing around at the bottom. "Visual" is key. Have that person below give a tug just to see that all the mechanics are clean and free. Rappel on blocked side and off the end. As swimming to bank, have person below pull the rope down. DRT....have person below give a tug to see if all is lubed up and ready to go. "Visual" not as key!

[Bo_Beck]

You need to re-think having the first person do a test pull?
I was always of the impression that if you are blocking one side of a rope, it was a good idea to leave the other half of the rope on top of the rappel for what if's?
So a test pull prior to the last person on rappel would sound prudent, rather than tossing down both strands on a "blocked" rope....:ne_nau:

I do understand......keep rope up on top for contingency although for all rappellers until last person down.

[Mountaineer]

So a test pull prior to the last person on rappel would sound prudent, rather than tossing down both strands on a "blocked" rope....

Ya, for sure. If the rope pull looks clean, I've always deployed the pull rope/side with the last person coming down.

If the pull looks at all questionable, then have the 2nd to last person test it. And when you come down (last person), watch above you on how the ropes sit on the rock (away from snags), and make sure they don't cross. Sometimes easier said than done.

I haven't got a rope stuck yet, but I'm still young in canyons and my day may come... :cry1:

[Canyonater]

I noticed also. You just reach over and grab the 'correct' line, but ohhh it would be so easy to grab wrong and without a safety? I would think even with all adults a safety tether should be automatic. 90% of accidents are human error. Last rap, fun canyon, maybe tired or cold, thinking about photo ops. :eek2: Again, why single rappel with both ropes hanging there?? :facepalm1: And yes like Shane pointed 1st time I did last rap of PC I realized we were walking over platform of debris that could easily collapse - food for thought!

I was the last one down, everyone else went single line on the biner block and pull side was still up top in the bag. The main rope is only 120ft so obviously I need to tie a pull side. I drop the pull side down cause Im obviously not gonna deploy it while on rappel and then I head back up to do a camp check, video shows me coming back to the anchor. I know im gonna be using a gopro (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p5197.m570.l1313&_nkw=gopro&_sacat=See-All-Categories) with my left hand and wont be able to unclip a tether once on the rope so I forgo using my tether which was on me (I don't carry it just cause I like extra weight) and as a measure of safety I connect to the line farther back from the edge. Knowing I have no safety I take a good amount of time quadruple checking everything before I load the anchor. This was not shown on the video, if you wanna see it let me know, its a long boring section I figure I'd edit out.

As far as the face palm question about why I went single rappel with both ropes hanging there....IF you watched the video it wasn't a single rope with both sides hanging there, 2 ropes were tied together. The block was already rigged, Would you rather me go double strand on a knotted line and also have to worry about both lines going through my ATS cleanly while holding a gopro in one hand? :duhz: We are hopefully all adults here, I chose to use my gopro and because of that I chose not to use a tether or double line cause for me it would unnecessarily complicate things which is also dangerous. Because of this I went over the top checking everything before getting on rappel........risk managed...

[canyonguru]

CANYONATER SAID
I chose to use my gopro (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p5197.m570.l1313&_nkw=gopro&_sacat=See-All-Categories) and because of that I chose not to use a tether or double line cause for me it would unnecessarily complicate things which is also dangerous

well look at the bright side when you fall becuase you are more worried about your GOPRO camera, at least you will have a video of the entire fall to show us if you survive.


Shane i haven't done any class c canyons but you are right that is when the block would be more prudent to use.

[Slipknot]

CANYONATER SAID
I chose to use my gopro (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p5197.m570.l1313&_nkw=gopro&_sacat=See-All-Categories) and because of that I chose not to use a tether or double line cause for me it would unnecessarily complicate things which is also dangerous

well look at the bright side when you fall becuase you are more worried about your GOPRO camera, at least you will have a video of the entire fall to show us if you survive.


Shane i haven't done any class c canyons but you are right that is when the block would be more prudent to use.


I am perplexed on why you seem so concerned with Caonyonater's technique for safety when you don't even where a helmet yourself.

Everyone takes risks when they are in a canyon whether it is scrambling up exposed 4th class terrain, not clipping into an anchor for safety, sketchy down climbs, sketchy anchors, etc. I love how everyone can be so judgmental.

[Sandstone Addiction]

Hey Canyonater , I personally enjoyed the video and it's helps me tremendously in making a decision. Not many pics or video from that view, most are from bottom looking up. Thanks for posting it.

No need to get defensive about the critique. It's good to have, and I appreciate, other folks looking at what we do, questioning it, and offering advise. I have learned a lot from Mountaineer and the way he handles constructive criticism as sometimes it seemed offensive, but he always handles it in style. :cool2:

[Canyonater]

CANYONATER SAID
I chose to use my gopro (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p5197.m570.l1313&_nkw=gopro&_sacat=See-All-Categories) and because of that I chose not to use a tether or double line cause for me it would unnecessarily complicate things which is also dangerous

well look at the bright side when you fall becuase you are more worried about your GOPRO camera, at least you will have a video of the entire fall to show us if you survive.


Shane i haven't done any class c canyons but you are right that is when the block would be more prudent to use.

That doesn't make any sense....I chose to use the gopro and because of this I did extra checks and verification so that the risk ended up being a wash. If the ledge was sloped or had some other risk then yeah I would have chose to tether in and skip the gopro, I made the assessment and there was no additional risk the way I did it.......this sport is inherently dangerous.....just cause someone chooses to downclimb a drop vs rappel one doesn't make them idiots.....they evaluate the situation according to their own skills and how they want to experience it. With your argument you might as well stay home cause that is the safest thing to do. This rap is straight forward, if I was trying to do this on the multi-stage rap in Heaps or in a Class C then you'd have a point cause there would be no way to counter the additional risk.

[Canyonater]

I am perplexed on why you seem so concerned with Caonyonater's technique for safety when you don't even where a helmet yourself.

Everyone takes risks when they are in a canyon whether it is scrambling up exposed 4th class terrain, not clipping into an anchor for safety, sketchy down climbs, sketchy anchors, etc. I love how everyone can be so judgmental.

Exactly!

[Canyonater]

Hey @Canyonater (http://www.bogley.com/forum/member.php?u=24232) , I personally enjoyed the video and it's helps me tremendously in making a decision. Not many pics or video from that view, most are from bottom looking up. Thanks for posting it.

No need to get defensive about the critique. It's good to have, and I appreciate, other folks looking at what we do, questioning it, and offering advise. I have learned a lot from @Mountaineer (http://www.bogley.com/forum/member.php?u=19072) and the way he handles constructive criticism as sometimes it seemed offensive, but he always handles it in style. :cool2:

No problem glad it helped. I don't mind constructive criticism but when I get face palms and down talk I get annoyed....