Scout Training?

[moab mark]

There have been several threads about Scout Leader Training over the past few years. Instead of searching thru all of them does anyone know where Trappers and GSL stand now? I have moved into a new area and several of the Leaders are interested in getting trained. So I guess we want to jump thru the hoops so we can take the Youth Canyoneering. So what are the hoops? Can we go private(Darkhorse etc) or do we need to take the courses from GSLC? I can't seem to find anything on the GSLC site? Does anyone have the breakdown of what is necessary?

[airman]

I'm not sure about Trapper Trails. But as I understand it, professional guides that are approved by the GSLC can be used, or you can go through the climbing and canyoneering courses sponsored by the GSLC. You have to start with the climbing course. Here's the link to info on the climbing course: http://www.gslc-bsa.org/training/leader-training/climbing-instructors-course/32030.

[Mountaineer]

In both councils, you must have a minimum of 2 BSA Climbing Instructors for the activity, where one must be a BSA Lead Climbing Instructor. BSA is the only one who can provide this training.

Prerequisites for the training: BSA medical, First Aid/CPR, Climb on Safely and Youth Protection trained.

Looks like another course is offered by GSLC in October: http://www.gslc-bsa.org/training/leader-training/climbing-instructors-course/32030. GSLC also has a canyoneer training program and policies.

Trapper Trails is led by Sean, and information may be found here: http://www.trappertrails.org/Training/Program%20Specific/Climbing. Sean is an awesome person who puts a lot of volunteer time into this program, and organized and helped with my training earlier this year.

Note that Trapper Trails does not have a canyoneering program yet (unlike GSLC), but they are working to organize and put one together. So right now, under Trapper Trails, you can go canyoneering following the climbing training policies.

[moab mark]

What (time commitment etc) is involved with the GSLC Canyoneering training? Anybody have a link?

[burley]

What (time commitment etc) is involved with the GSLC Canyoneering training? Anybody have a link?

Mark, I've been through it all and the steps to be able to lead youth through canyons for GSLC are more or less as follows:


Knowledge of and competency in Climbing and Canyoneering
Basic Training on your own (First Aid, CPR, BSA Climb On, BSA Youth Protection, etc): 16 hrs?
Climbing Instructor Class: 16 hrs?
Become Climbing Instructor Level I: Activities totaling 20 hrs?
Become climbing Instructor Level II: Activities totaling 20 hrs?
Wilderness First Aid Class: 20 hrs?
Canyon Leader Class: 40 hrs?
Become Canyon Leader I: Activities totaling 20 hrs?
Become Canyon Leader II: Activities totaling 40 hrs?

There are other requirements thrown in besides the classes themselves in order to obtain the different levels, such as testing (written, practical) and taking youth out with supervision to be evaluated. Realistically it would take about a year before you could take youth out 'on your own', due to schedule, and then only if you're on top of things. But it all starts with taking the Climbing Instructor course.

Costs are pretty reasonable, you're mostly paying for rope usage etc. I'm thinking that total is less than $500, and that would go down if you already have First Aid, CPR etc.

It is a lot to go through, but pretty reasonable when you consider the low cost and that the BSA is the ONLY (?) youth group that allows non-professional guides to take youth out like this; they want to make sure that you (who could be an idiot or could be the safest guy on the Plateau with 20 years experience) know how to get youth through a canyon without anyone getting hurt or worse, especially if something goes wrong. One major difference between 'jumping through the hoops' and not is that if you do things per BSA guidelines you (theoretically) have their back if something were to happen and things went to court. Also, there are some pretty smart and experienced guys who teach and participate in the training so you're bound to learn something along the way.

I'd also note that if you want to personally take youth from the GSLC though a canyon this is the only way to do it 'BSA legal', or even 'LDS legal' for those that are Mormon. Of course, you could hire a professional guide with their own insurances, but that is pretty cost prohibitive for most scout groups. Fortunately the GSLC has a pretty good system set up that with some planning any group in the council can find someone already trained to take them out.

The guys that run the climbing course would be able to discuss the GSLC side with you further, or PM me.

[canyonguru]

It is actuall imposible to do a slot canyon exactly like BSA trains you too. There is no way on the first rappell in pine creek that you can have two completely different anchors and have the rigged indipendtly of eachother, cover the ropes with a fire hose to protect them from wear. Its a little rediculous what the BSA requires for a true BSA Rappel.

Im not saying that the training is not good idea, any type of training is better than not having any at all. Just my two cents.

[airman]

Thanks, Mountaineer for jumping in here. Very helpful! :2thumbs: I just want to clarify one thing:


So right now, under Trapper Trails, you can go canyoneering following the climbing training policies.

I'm not in the Trapper Trails Council, so take this for what it's worth, but I don't think that is right. Climb On Safely (http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/430-099.pdf) says:

"For specialized climbing activities such as lead climbing, sport climbing, ice climbing, canyoneering, mountaineering, and caving, qualified instructors with specific training and skill in instructing these activities are required." (emphasis added).


Note that Trapper Trails does not have a canyoneering program yet ....

So, if specialized training is needed for canyoneering according to Climb On Safely, and Trapper Trails doesn't have a canyoneering program, I don't think you can take scouts canyoneering in the Trapper Trails Council by following the Trapper Trails council climbing-only program and still be compliant with Climb On Safely.

Needless to say, this is an area that is a bit tricky. I think the best source for information on the courses and time commitments is to call Sean (Trapper Trails) or Brandt (Great Salt Lake Council). Give them a call. They can tell you all about their respective programs. Their phone numbers are on the webpages mentioned earlier in the thread. Just so you know, these guys are unpaid volunteers.

[Mountaineer]

Yes, a bit tricky. Good point and well taken.

Have talked to Sean and the other leaders on the topic; and for Trapper Trails the climbing guidelines currently satisfy canyoneering events.

There are plans to implement a similar program to GSLC.

[Mountaineer]

It is actuall imposible to do a slot canyon exactly like BSA trains you too. There is no way on the first rappell in pine creek that you can have two completely different anchors and have the rigged indipendtly of eachother, cover the ropes with a fire hose to protect them from wear. Its a little rediculous what the BSA requires for a true BSA Rappel.

Im not saying that the training is not good idea, any type of training is better than not having any at all. Just my two cents.

Very tough, but possible in most situations. With the right equipment and planning, probably possible in any situation.

If not possible, shouldn't do that canyon...

Two anchor points are required. Independent ropes also. Everyone on a tether, belay, etc. Lots of time and care to follow policy, yes.

[moab mark]

Yes, a bit tricky. Good point and well taken.

Have talked to Sean and the other leaders on the topic; and for Trapper Trails the climbing guidelines currently satisfy canyoneering events.

There are plans to implement a similar program to GSLC.

Yes but does it satisfy the LDS Church rules on extreme adventures?

[JTMiller]

The links to the GSL Council climbing/rappelling and canyoneering policies are both included on the web page about the climbing instructor course.

Here is the link to the canyoneering policy: http://www.gslc-bsa.org/document/gslc-unit-canyoneering-policy

[Mountaineer]

Yes but does it satisfy the LDS Church rules on extreme adventures?

Not sure on that. Our troop is sponsored by the Lions Club. The church may have other policies you need to follow.

[moab mark]

Mark, I've been through it all and the steps to be able to lead youth through canyons for GSLC are more or less as follows:


Knowledge of and competency in Climbing and Canyoneering
Basic Training on your own (First Aid, CPR, BSA Climb On, BSA Youth Protection, etc): 16 hrs?
Climbing Instructor Class: 16 hrs?
Become Climbing Instructor Level I: Activities totaling 20 hrs?
Become climbing Instructor Level II: Activities totaling 20 hrs?
Wilderness First Aid Class: 20 hrs?
Canyon Leader Class: 40 hrs?
Become Canyon Leader I: Activities totaling 20 hrs?
Become Canyon Leader II: Activities totaling 40 hrs?

There are other requirements thrown in besides the classes themselves in order to obtain the different levels, such as testing (written, practical) and taking youth out with supervision to be evaluated. Realistically it would take about a year before you could take youth out 'on your own', due to schedule, and then only if you're on top of things. But it all starts with taking the Climbing Instructor course.:haha:.

So about 200 hours probably spread out over several years, how many different ways can you tie a clove hitch?:facepalm1: As Mr. Cabe states often "any monkey can rappel" or something like that.:haha: If you can't grasp the concept of taking groups Canyoneering in 4 8 to 10 hour Saturdays maybe Canyoneering is not for you. Make the group haul four times the amount of rope needed for each canyon and any problem should be able to be resolved. So if I start now my Son will be out of Scouts before we would be able to go. If money is not an object does anyone have a list of what private companies can teach the Canyoneering part?

Mark

[moab mark]

It is actuall imposible to do a slot canyon exactly like BSA trains you too. There is no way on the first rappell in pine creek that you can have two completely different anchors and have the rigged indipendtly of eachother, cover the ropes with a fire hose to protect them from wear. Its a little rediculous what the BSA requires for a true BSA Rappel.

Im not saying that the training is not good idea, any type of training is better than not having any at all. Just my two cents.

Does anyone have the breakdown of what is taught by the GSLC Canyoneering training? Do you really need two independent anchors? On a two bolt anchor is each bolt considered an independent anchor?

[Mountaineer]

On a two bolt anchor is each bolt considered an independent anchor?

You need at least two anchor points. Yes, each bolt is considered a point.

[moab mark]

What about 2 very large overweight leaders?:stud:

[Mountaineer]

Awesome that burley, moab mark, and others are pursuing (or have pursued) properly following the BSA regulations and policies. It is not easy to take the training, and follow all of the rules in climbing/canyoneering with scouts. For those that may not know, it requires a tremendous amount of time and focus to get everything lined up to properly take a troop through a canyon.
For BSA: training is a challenge while minimizing risk. It is a balance between making sure the leader understands the proper techniques in keeping the scouts safe, and also not requiring the instructor to give a ridiculous amount of time. I hope Mark, you and others silently reading along investigate with the GSLC directly everything needed and find it not too onerous. I hope it doesn't take all the time reflected above.
A couple of weekends ago I was taking some kids home when they started talking about the big high adventure trip they had just taken. It was a canyoneering trip.
"How did you get your helmets?"
"We just grabbed our bike helmets" (Against policy I knew, but I stayed quiet)
"Do you remember how you rappelled?"
"We threw the ropes down and just went down on our own." (No belay)
"Was your leader trained?"
"Oh ya, he has been doing this for several years and knows everything. He did a great job. All the other adults had never rappelled or anything before, but our leader knew it all"
I doubt he had any BSA training. If he did, he certainly didn't honor his signature on compliance.

I suspect that most scout groups go without following BSA policy. I could be wrong? If under a church group, perhaps their policy would cover a mishap. Maybe? However, it seems to be very common for troops to just go without even knowing the rules, let alone follow them.

[moab mark]

So here's how it went at church today. Hey guys it's going to take between 100 and 200 hours to be able to do Subway. They looked at me like I was kidding. They decided we will go and do some other activity. Yes many are probably not getting any training at all, but when the finish line is not attainable by the average guy........

[Mountaineer]

...Subway. They looked at me like I was kidding. They decided we will go and do some other activity.......

I'll take you.

[moab mark]

Don't you need two cert leaders?

[Mountaineer]

Don't you need two cert leaders?

Yes, and with me being in Trapper Trails (you are GSLC?), my Lead Instructor status may not suffice. Check with GSLC, then PM me, directly, if that would work with their policies.

[moab mark]

We're trappers

[burnsdye]

According to this letter from the first presidency, http://www.lds.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/safety-letter-first-presidency-march-2011.pdf, LDS Scout leaders are not allowed to take their Scouts rock climbing (and by inference canyoneering) even if they meet all the requirements from the BSA.

"Plan activities that are safe and have minimal risk of injury or illness. Activities that pose greater risk, such as white-water rafting or rock climbing, should not be undertaken unless led by trained and licensed guides, or in conjunction with Scout-sponsored camps or High Adventure bases."

The ONLY way you can take your LDS troop canyoneering is if you hire a licensed guide (I assume that means insured) or go to a Scout-sponsored camp or High Adventure base.

[moab mark]

Supposedly getting training from GSL qualifies???

[Mountaineer]

"Plan activities that are safe and have minimal risk of injury or illness. Activities that pose greater risk, such as white-water rafting or rock climbing, should not be undertaken unless led by trained and licensed guides, or in conjunction with Scout-sponsored camps or High Adventure bases."



Wow, that seems clear (thanks for sharing). Other options include:

a) join our troop ;-)
b) become a licensed guide yourself

[Kuya]

According to this letter from the first presidency, http://www.lds.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/safety-letter-first-presidency-march-2011.pdf, LDS Scout leaders are not allowed to take their Scouts rock climbing (and by inference canyoneering) even if they meet all the requirements from the BSA.

"Plan activities that are safe and have minimal risk of injury or illness. Activities that pose greater risk, such as white-water rafting or rock climbing, should not be undertaken unless led by trained and licensed guides, or in conjunction with Scout-sponsored camps or High Adventure bases."

The ONLY way you can take your LDS troop canyoneering is if you hire a licensed guide (I assume that means insured) or go to a Scout-sponsored camp or High Adventure base.


Here we go again :D

So what if you get a approval (approved Tour Plan) from your Church Leader (aka Bishop) and Council? We have been on a few canyoneering trips with the scouts and every time we are clear about our plans, and both the church and the council approve our Tour Plan. To me that that says we are good to go! We have received the blessing of both the charter organization and the national parks council!

[Mountaineer]

So what if you get a approval (approved Tour Plan) from your Church Leader (aka Bishop) and Council? We have been on a few canyoneering trips with the scouts and every time we are clear about our plans, and both the church and the council approve our Tour Plan. To me that that says we are good to go! We have received the blessing of both the charter organization and the national parks council!

Seems like you are good to go, as there may be an update from Church HQ that your local leaders have, or they have unit level approval?

[Kuya]

According to this letter from the first presidency, http://www.lds.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/safety-letter-first-presidency-march-2011.pdf, LDS Scout leaders are not allowed to take their Scouts rock climbing (and by inference canyoneering) even if they meet all the requirements from the BSA.

"Plan activities that are safe and have minimal risk of injury or illness. Activities that pose greater risk, such as white-water rafting or rock climbing, should not be undertaken unless led by trained and licensed guides, or in conjunction with Scout-sponsored camps or High Adventure bases."

The ONLY way you can take your LDS troop canyoneering is if you hire a licensed guide (I assume that means insured) or go to a Scout-sponsored camp or High Adventure base.

So when I ask the UNPC about what I need to do to take the scouts canyoneering, and they email me and tell me to talk to 12 Finger Outdoor adventure and get certified with them. does that make me a trained guide??? I doubt it, but according to the UNPC, I have jumped through their hoops, and they approve my Tour Plans. shouldn't that make my canyoneering trip legit?

As far as the church is concerned? woudln't me getting that training now make me a "Trained" leader? After all i do have a certificate now ;) hehehe

[burley]

Supposedly getting training from GSL qualifies???

Yup.


It is actuall imposible to do a slot canyon exactly like BSA trains you too.

You'd be surprised. Scouts do canyons all over the place all the time, and do it BSA legal.


So about 200 hours probably spread out over several years, how many different ways can you tie a clove hitch?:facepalm1: As Mr. Cabe states often "any monkey can rappel" or something like that.:haha: If you can't grasp the concept of taking groups Canyoneering in 4 8 to 10 hour Saturdays maybe Canyoneering is not for you. Make the group haul four times the amount of rope needed for each canyon and any problem should be able to be resolved. So if I start now my Son will be out of Scouts before we would be able to go.

Mark

A significant portion of the courses are focused on teaching you BSA regulations and on what to do when things go wrong. Honestly yes, becoming a BSA Canyon Leader is a lot of work, but a year is doable. And to become the 'second' qualified instructor is MUCH easier. And as mentioned the GSLC has a stellar crew of volunteers who will take your troop/crew out for the price of gas and a bit of planning.


If money is not an object does anyone have a list of what private companies can teach the Canyoneering part?

This is not an option for GSLC, other councils have other policies (though other's posts seem to indicate their policies may be changing?)

If anyone wants more info I'd contact the GSLC climbing course instructors as linked to previously, and take the course! Or if you just want to take your troop out then call your council and ask how you can make it happen. I did this two years ago and so far my troop has been led through 3 canyons by people who we didn't know but who were willing to use their experience (and BSA approval) to take our boys on adventures they still talk about. Pretty cool of them, regardless of the 'hoops'.

[canyonguru]

So this is what we do but i am not endorsing this what so ever.

1st we do file a tour permit with the BSA stating that we are going to zion national park to go hiking. This will cover us for everything besides canyons.

2. we then alos have the boys and parents sign a LDS church permission slip.

3 We have a Liability waver that releases the leaders, church ,BSA, and all adults going of any liablility if a boy is injured. We have had a laywer write it up for us so it is a leagal document. We then have the parents read it and sign it before we go on any canyoneering trips.

This way the church and the BSA will cover us for everything besides the actuall canyoneering part. So as soon as we drop out of the last rap in pine creek we are now hiking and are covered. At least this is the way i look at it and many other leaders here where i got the idea and paperwork from.

[ratagonia]

So this is what we do but i am not endorsing this what so ever.

1st we do file a tour permit with the BSA stating that we are going to zion national park to go hiking. This will cover us for everything besides canyons.

2. we then alos have the boys and parents sign a LDS church permission slip.

3 We have a Liability waver that releases the leaders, church ,BSA, and all adults going of any liablility if a boy is injured. We have had a laywer write it up for us so it is a leagal document. We then have the parents read it and sign it before we go on any canyoneering trips.

This way the church and the BSA will cover us for everything besides the actuall canyoneering part. So as soon as we drop out of the last rap in pine creek we are now hiking and are covered. At least this is the way i look at it and many other leaders here where i got the idea and paperwork from.

Yeah, well...

I'm not a lawyer, but there is a shade tree in my yard and I play one on the Interwebs. :afro:

Your Liability Waiver does not really do anything for you. Waivers do not cover you for gross negligence, and by going outside the system, you are, (the case could be made) de facto grossly negligent. You have done a good job of shielding the BSA and LDS, although a sharp lawyer would get them for gross negligence for not knowing you were working the system.

Not really a problem until you get a kid hurt, and the parents are looking at 100k in medical bills. They WERE your friends, but they are not anymore.

Also, without a WFR or W-EMT, you are CLEARLY grossly negligent, since these are the industry standard for taking people into the wild for technical activities.

Do you have possessions?

Tom

[JTMiller]

So this is what we do but i am not endorsing this what so ever.

1st we do file a tour permit with the BSA stating that we are going to zion national park to go hiking. This will cover us for everything besides canyons.

2. we then alos have the boys and parents sign a LDS church permission slip.

3 We have a Liability waver that releases the leaders, church ,BSA, and all adults going of any liablility if a boy is injured. We have had a laywer write it up for us so it is a leagal document. We then have the parents read it and sign it before we go on any canyoneering trips.

This way the church and the BSA will cover us for everything besides the actuall canyoneering part. So as soon as we drop out of the last rap in pine creek we are now hiking and are covered. At least this is the way i look at it and many other leaders here where i got the idea and paperwork from.

Wow. One of our main responsibilities as scout leaders is to teach the boys to live honest and ethical lives. I'm a scout leader, and agree that sometimes the BSA red tape can really become a pain in the backside, but it comes with the territory. The battle between risk managers and segments of the legal profession is making our lives more difficult. Seems to me that this type of questionable work-around is setting an example opposite to what we're responsible to teach. Also sounds like you're still personally exposed while you're in the technical parts of the canyon.

[canyonguru]

i figured i would catch some slack on this. Being that the BSA is the activity arm the the LDS church we are required to use their insurence when we do any type of activity. We are also required to have the boys parents sign a LDS permission slip. I do agree that we are still taking some risk to ourselves being as tom said any laywer, if he or she is good enough) can sue anyone for anything and win regardless of how reduculus the claim.

Even if we were to have two BSA rappel certified leaders on the trip who is to say the the boys woren't messing around and fell off the cliff. Is that my fault that they were being idiots. Or who is to say that we set the rappel up correctlly. There are millions of sanarios that could happen and we could still get sued reguardless weather we have a BSA trained person or not. I guess this is my way of justifying taking the boys out to do something special that they wouldn't be able to do if it wasn't this way. or they would have to wait 3 years for us to get trained.

It dosen't matter if you have taken every training course in the world nothing will ever replace experience. Never ever. The BSA and the church are just trying to cover their butts. I don't blame them one bit, there are too many idots out there who think they know what they are doing but don't. At least if they are BSA trained and then screw up they can atleast say that they had the training.

I can tell you about a story of a scout troop just last week that had to hike back out wild cat canyon becaues they got lost trying to do Great West. Those are the types of leaders that the training will protect the BSA when something goes wrong that is why it is so exstensive.

[Iceaxe]

You guys are so silly..... lawsuits are not about right and wrong, negligence, waivers or permission slips.... they are about money, which means you really only need to know two things.... first is it takes money to fund a successful lawsuit. Second is lawsuits are directed towards the deep pockets, poor people don't get sued.


Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[ratagonia]

It dosen't matter if you have taken every training course in the world nothing will ever replace experience. Never ever.

It doesn't matter how much experience you have, there is nothing like getting trained by professionals. Never EVER!

However, without context (experience), training is not very useful. Training only works when you have a scaffold to emplace it into.

I know many people with a lot of experience, who are very poor (very dangerous) canyon leaders. And of course, have no idea that they are poor canyon leaders.

I admire that you take the kids out for AWESOME adventures. But, just so you know, you are taking on considerable liability by doing so. If your lawyer tells you otherwise, you should find another lawyer.

I highly recommend taking a WFR course and maintaining that certification. With a (good) WFR course, you will be capable of providing the best care possible should an accident occur. I don't do that for the sake of legal liability, I do it for the sake of moral liability, for only by knowing that I did all that was possible can I be assured to not be damaged (unnecessarily) by an accident injury under my care.

Tom :moses:

[airman]

Whoa ... there's a bit of information on this thread that is a bit concerning !!! :eek2: Intentionally omitting information on a Tour Plan as a means of avoiding liability? Yikes!!! A Scout is trustworthy, …, obedient, …. For those watching at home, I certainly hope this doesn’t reflect the attitude and approach of LDS Scout Leaders generally, because some of what has been discussed here, in my opinion, is contrary to the teachings of the LDS church and the BSA.

I think overall the spirit of this is Scout leaders wanting to do the right thing. Special thanks to those of you who are trying to follow the rules, however frustrating it might be! :hail2thechief:

There’s a lot that could be said about some of the information on this thread. Without getting into details, please know that some of it is wrong. No one with authority from the BSA, any of the councils referenced, or the LDS church have chimed in here. The only way to know the BSA rules is to call your local council. It’s not that hard to pick up the phone and call Sean or Brandt (links containing their phone numbers can be found earlier in this thread). You might not agree with the BSA rules, or think the rules are burdensome, but representatives of the BSA Councils can speak with authority as to what the rules are. Please note that BSA rules have changed substantially this year. So don’t assume that what you were told previously is still applicable. You need to stay current with the rules.

With regard to the polices of LDS church, the very end of Section 13.6.20 of Handbook 2 (https://www.lds.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/language-materials/08702_eng.pdf?lang=eng) (the Church Handbook of Instructions) states: "The stake president (or a bishop under his direction) refers questions about safety issues ... to the Risk Management Division or to the area office." If you want to know if you are a “trained and certified guide” pursuant to the First Presidency letter dated April 22, 2013 that is available on safety.lds.org (http://safety.lds.org), that is the channel I would go through. If it were me, I would be very reluctant to take the leap of logic that suggests that you can be in compliant with LDS Church safety polices while violating BSA policies.

In the event of an accident that goes to trial, the applicable policies of both the BSA and the LDS Church (for a LDS unit) will be blown up and put on the screen for the jury to read. It won’t matter what you “thought” the policies were or how creative you tried to be in getting around them. The policies will be presented and the facts of your training, what happened, and so forth will be presented to the jury in excruciating detail. The point will come when the attorney representing the injured or deceased leader and/or Scout will ask “Were you in compliance with these policies?” The implication will be that if you weren’t, you will have been negligent and/or engaged in intentional misconduct and thus personally liable for the accident. Don’t set yourself up for that. It will ruin your life, the life of your family, and the life of many others. And please don't assume that a liability waiver will excuse you from following the rules.

As I see it, this isn’t just about protecting ourselves from liability. My wife grew up in the LDS Pleasant View 3rd Ward. In 1967, 13 scouts and leaders that ward perished in a tragic accident (http://www.byhigh.org/History/HoleintheRock/Hole-in-the-Rock.html) when a truck rolled over on the Hole-in-the-Rock Road. Heartache from that incident can be felt in that ward to this day. I want to be properly trained and follow proper rules so that I can avoid similar tragedies if at all possible.

For me, there is no greater and more rewarding outdoor activity than to take youth canyoneering. However, I am sobered by the elevated moral and legal responsibilities that are imposed on leaders who undertake these activities. Please do not take it lightly.

For those of you who are frustrated, I hope you will convert that energy into something productive like getting properly trained, or even better, being a part of developing programs in your Council to help others get properly trained.

[Mountaineer]

The only way to know the BSA rules is to call your local council. It’s not that hard to pick up the phone and call Sean or Brandt (links containing their phone numbers can be found earlier in this thread). You might not agree with the BSA rules, or think the rules are burdensome, but representatives of the BSA Councils can speak with authority as to what the rules are. Please note that BSA rules have changed substantially this year. So don’t assume that what you were told previously is still applicable. You need to stay current with the rules.



Thanks airman. I would add to this by stating: Take the BSA training. Become a BSA Lead Instructor.

I also have the updated manual, this year, on all the rules and policies. A 4" large ring binder if anyone wants to call, ask questions, or come over and look through it. For example, ropes have to carry certain certifications, log book, and/or manufacturer guarantees before they can be used. When I did my initial research, I was hard pressed to find any static rope that met those (partly due to BSA and/or Trapper Trails finalizing canyoneering standards).

You have to follow all the rules, to the best of your ability, and up to your level of training. If you do so, and an accident occurs (hopefully never), however you'll be on solid ground in the court room.

I don't know of anyone who is perfect at everything.

[Mountaineer]

Even if we were to have two BSA rappel certified leaders on the trip who is to say the the boys woren't messing around and fell off the cliff. Is that my fault that they were being idiots.



Ya, that is tough. On my last trip I had one boy who really just wanted to "go for it" even after I set the proper discipline, and sequence process prior to entering the canyon. He was excited, naturally. However, per policy, use a tether anytime you are closer to 8'.

Ground school, and rappelling/climbing practice prior also is important. If you find a boy that you are having trouble controlling, may be best to put them on a plan to improve and perhaps sign up for the next trip once they meet those goals.




Or who is to say that we set the rappel up correctlly. There are millions of sanarios that could happen and we could still get sued reguardless weather we have a BSA trained person or not.



If there is an accident, you can count on a law suit. Learning and setting up the rappels per BSA takes more time, but by doing it correctly strengthens your legal position.




I guess this is my way of justifying taking the boys out to do something special that they wouldn't be able to do if it wasn't this way. or they would have to wait 3 years for us to get trained.

It dosen't matter if you have taken every training course in the world nothing will ever replace experience. Never ever. The BSA and the church are just trying to cover their butts. I don't blame them one bit, there are too many idots out there who think they know what they are doing but don't. At least if they are BSA trained and then screw up they can atleast say that they had the training.



WFR takes a bit to get, and I recommend it. First Aid and CPR is the minimum requirement. The actual BSA training was 3 days for me, Trapper Trails.





I can tell you about a story of a scout troop just last week that had to hike back out wild cat canyon becaues they got lost trying to do Great West. Those are the types of leaders that the training will protect the BSA when something goes wrong that is why it is so exstensive.



There are leaders who have a lot of training, experience, etc., but have no clue on how to manage a group. There are others who are great with the group dynamics, but not so good at the technical part. You are golden if you can get both types on the same trip.

With a little bit of effort, you can get the credentials you need to take scouts out. It is rewarding, and I guarantee those scouts will always remember you, the rest of their lives, for what you provided.

[ratagonia]

WFR takes a bit to get, and I recommend it. First Aid and CPR is the minimum requirement. The actual BSA training was 3 days for me, Trapper Trails.


WFR is the industry standard, outside BSA.

Since CanyonGuru is outside the BSA, BSA standards do not apply to him.

I would also recommend WFR to all Scout Leaders. The step up in capability from WFA to WFR is substantial. ZAC is hosting a course in November with WMA, who produces a mighty good course.

http://www.zionadventures.com/zion-park-tours/wilderness-first-responder/

Tom

[bbjones]

It is interesting that with all the posts in this thread and similar threads on this and other forums where my contact information can be located, my phone has yet to ring.

There is both a lot of miss information and even some correct information found is this thread.

I encourage you to contact your local council office and climbing committee for further assistance.

However, some BSA councils have programs which are teaching and requiring levels of training which have always been insufficient compared to the requirements for “INSTRUCTOR” from the BSA.

Requirements change and will continue to change.

In 2014, councils will have to have their local training programs reviewed and approved by BSA National. This is not the forum to discuss this. Not all councils will have approved training programs.

That being said ……..


The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law.

The Boy Scouts of America seeks adult leaders who exemplify, teach and inspire the traits in their mission statement.

I will not enumerate all the requirements, time and cost of BSA and local council climbing, rappelling and, where approved, canyoneering training programs.

Currently it states in Climb On Safely the requirements for Unit climbing and rappelling activities.

Climb On Safely can be found @:

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/430-099.pdf

A BSA Level II Instructor is one source. (Climbing Lead Instructor and Director are being phased out by the BSA as their training expires.)

There are also other organizations where QUALIFIED INSTRUCTORS can be located. An INSTRUCTOR from AMGA, NOLS, and other professional institutes are enumerated. Note the word “instructors”.

There are industry standards for the organizations listed.

The BSA Level II Instructor course is just that “An Instructor Course”. The course is not a climbing course. The course teaches and evaluates a candidates knowledge, skill, understanding and judgment of climbing, rigging, management and many other essentials to be coming an instructor.

In Climb On Safely it states, “Qualified instruction is essential to conducting a safe climbing/rappelling activity. Some people who claim to be qualified or have had some experience with climbing or rappelling may lack sufficient knowledge to safely conduct these activities.”

There are requirements for INSTRUCTORS for a simple climbing/rappelling activity at the local climbing crag.

For canyoneering an INSTRUCTOR should meet the minimum requirements for running a climbing/rappelling activity and ALSO have “specific training and skill in instructing these activities” meaning canyoneering.

My contact information can be found at the bottom of the link below.

http://www.gslc-bsa.org/training/leader-training/climbing-instructors-course/32030

To become an instructor it is a process.

I can tell you the rewards are worth it.

Brandt Jones

COPE and Climbing Committee Chairman
Great Salt Lake Council
Member BSA Western Region COPE and Climbing Task Force
Western Region Area Advocate, BSA
Training Program Evaluator, BSA

[Spidey]

Lots of good information, and lots of bad information flying around on this thread. I will try to share what I know very quickly. I am on the UNPC climbing committee and the UNPC has no canyoneering policy and does not enforce any of the vertical world policies in general, despite some of our's best efforts. 12 Finger outdoors is not authorized to issue any kind of certification, they have been given more than 1 phone call and letters telling them to cease and desist. I know the climbing committee for UNPC has sent them as well as Brandt from GSLC. They have been encouraged to continue training, but to immediately stop giving scout leaders a false sense of security with a stupid certificate.

GSLC does not recognize other organizations training for canyoneering. I find this curious personally as Rich, Myself, and Clark wrote/decided on the curriculum for them 4-5 years ago, and trained their first group of leaders. I find it curious, but respect their decision.

UNPC is a complete and total FLUSTER CUCK, they are oblivious, stupid, ignorant. They will sign off on any tour permit that comes through. According to Scott Card once they do that they just put themselves in first position for liability FWIW. I will also say that there is no one in the UNPC right now authorized to issue a climbing or canyon leader certificate of any kind, unless we recently added a climbing director somewhere that I am unaware of.

Now as for training please please get some as much as you can, and get as much seasoning on your own as you can.

I didn't start this for this purpose, but when it comes to training Scout Leaders, Clark and I ran a Venturing crew for 6 years. We have special insight into what Scout leaders need to know. Bottom line I am going to toot our horn a bit. For scout leaders we provide better training than anyone out there.

If you have further questions about any of this P.M. me with your phone # and I will call you.

[burnsdye]

With all this talk of the Tour and Activity Plan, I wonder if any of you have actually filled out a Tour and Activity Plan in the last year??? Gone away is the old paper form. Now, Scout leaders fill out an online form at myscouting.scouting.org. On step 6, it asks you if you will be participating in any climbing activities. If you say yes, then it asks you to select which adult has completed Climb on Safely, CPR/AED, First Aid, and Hazardous Weather. If you don't select anyone, then before you submit the Tour and Activity Plan it makes you fill in a checkbox saying that you promise to have an adult there with the required training. Thus there is no possible way to get a tour permit approved if you don't have the proper training. From a liability standpoint they are covered.

[Kuya]

With all this talk of the Tour and Activity Plan, I wonder if any of you have actually filled out a Tour and Activity Plan in the last year??? Gone away is the old paper form. Now, Scout leaders fill out an online form at myscouting.scouting.org. On step 6, it asks you if you will be participating in any climbing activities. If you say yes, then it asks you to select which adult has completed Climb on Safely, CPR/AED, First Aid, and Hazardous Weather. If you don't select anyone, then before you submit the Tour and Activity Plan it makes you fill in a checkbox saying that you promise to have an adult there with the required training. Thus there is no possible way to get a tour permit approved if you don't have the proper training. From a liability standpoint they are covered.

Yup :) have done this. we have 3 leaders in our various units that have participated in the UNPC recommended climbing training program from 12 Finger.

[Kuya]

Lots of good information, and lots of bad information flying around on this thread. I will try to share what I know very quickly. I am on the UNPC climbing committee and the UNPC has no canyoneering policy and does not enforce any of the vertical world policies in general, despite some of our's best efforts. 12 Finger outdoors is not authorized to issue any kind of certification, they have been given more than 1 phone call and letters telling them to cease and desist. I know the climbing committee for UNPC has sent them as well as Brandt from GSLC. They have been encouraged to continue training, but to immediately stop giving scout leaders a false sense of security with a stupid certificate.

GSLC does not recognize other organizations training for canyoneering. I find this curious personally as Rich, Myself, and Clark wrote/decided on the curriculum for them 4-5 years ago, and trained their first group of leaders. I find it curious, but respect their decision.

UNPC is a complete and total FLUSTER CUCK, they are oblivious, stupid, ignorant. They will sign off on any tour permit that comes through. According to Scott Card once they do that they just put themselves in first position for liability FWIW. I will also say that there is no one in the UNPC right now authorized to issue a climbing or canyon leader certificate of any kind, unless we recently added a climbing director somewhere that I am unaware of.

Now as for training please please get some as much as you can, and get as much seasoning on your own as you can.

I didn't start this for this purpose, but when it comes to training Scout Leaders, Clark and I ran a Venturing crew for 6 years. We have special insight into what Scout leaders need to know. Bottom line I am going to toot our horn a bit. For scout leaders we provide better training than anyone out there.

If you have further questions about any of this P.M. me with your phone # and I will call you.


Ahh.. I notice that the UNPC IS changing things. the webpage that use to tell us that we were to contact 12 finger outdoor co is not longer available. LOL this is very interesting. I wonder what they require now. A few months ago when I asked the UNPC council members about Canyoneering, the had me call the owner of 12 Finger. yeah, he was basically useless. Maybe I will start bugging the scout office again just for fun :lol8: :crazy:

[Kuya]

It is interesting that with all the posts in this thread and similar threads on this and other forums where my contact information can be located, my phone has yet to ring.

There is both a lot of miss information and even some correct information found is this thread.

I encourage you to contact your local council office and climbing committee for further assistance.

However, some BSA councils have programs which are teaching and requiring levels of training which have always been insufficient compared to the requirements for “INSTRUCTOR” from the BSA.

Requirements change and will continue to change.

In 2014, councils will have to have their local training programs reviewed and approved by BSA National. This is not the forum to discuss this. Not all councils will have approved training programs.

That being said ……..


The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law.

The Boy Scouts of America seeks adult leaders who exemplify, teach and inspire the traits in their mission statement.

I will not enumerate all the requirements, time and cost of BSA and local council climbing, rappelling and, where approved, canyoneering training programs.

Currently it states in Climb On Safely the requirements for Unit climbing and rappelling activities.

Climb On Safely can be found @:

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/430-099.pdf

A BSA Level II Instructor is one source. (Climbing Lead Instructor and Director are being phased out by the BSA as their training expires.)

There are also other organizations where QUALIFIED INSTRUCTORS can be located. An INSTRUCTOR from AMGA, NOLS, and other professional institutes are enumerated. Note the word “instructors”.

There are industry standards for the organizations listed.

The BSA Level II Instructor course is just that “An Instructor Course”. The course is not a climbing course. The course teaches and evaluates a candidates knowledge, skill, understanding and judgment of climbing, rigging, management and many other essentials to be coming an instructor.

In Climb On Safely it states, “Qualified instruction is essential to conducting a safe climbing/rappelling activity. Some people who claim to be qualified or have had some experience with climbing or rappelling may lack sufficient knowledge to safely conduct these activities.”

There are requirements for INSTRUCTORS for a simple climbing/rappelling activity at the local climbing crag.

For canyoneering an INSTRUCTOR should meet the minimum requirements for running a climbing/rappelling activity and ALSO have “specific training and skill in instructing these activities” meaning canyoneering.

My contact information can be found at the bottom of the link below.

http://www.gslc-bsa.org/training/leader-training/climbing-instructors-course/32030

To become an instructor it is a process.

I can tell you the rewards are worth it.

Brandt Jones

COPE and Climbing Committee Chairman
Great Salt Lake Council
Member BSA Western Region COPE and Climbing Task Force
Western Region Area Advocate, BSA
Training Program Evaluator, BSA

bbjones,

SO... when I called you earlier this year I was made to understand that your canyoneering training would mean nothing in the UNPC council. however, I would still LOVE to take your training just to better develop my skills. What is the cost and when is the next class?

Additionally, after reading all of your comments, I am still unsure about what I need to do to successfully take my scouts Canyoneering in the UNPC. Are you aware of what I need to do to be legit in the councils eyes? or is just getting my Tour Plan approved sufficient?

[airman]

Are you aware of what I need to do to be legit in the councils eyes? or is just getting my Tour Plan approved sufficient?

In terms of finding out what you need to be legit, you should talk to someone with authority on the subject, as has been previously stated in this thread. I don't think anything that would be posted on Bogley, other than a reference to other policies, would be authoritative. I appreciate Brandt providing an open invitation to call him.

I'm neither an authority from the BSA or the church, but let me take a crack at your question about Tour Plans, FWIW. For the reasons outlined below, I don't think that "just getting my Tour Plan approved" is sufficient.

I think your assumptions about Tour Plans are embodied in this statement:



So what if you get a approval (approved Tour Plan) from your Church Leader (aka Bishop) and Council? We have been on a few canyoneering trips with the scouts and every time we are clear about our plans, and both the church and the council approve our Tour Plan. To me that that says we are good to go! We have received the blessing of both the charter organization and the national parks council!


As you probably know, the BSA recently changed from a paper Tour "Permit" to an online "Tour and Activity Plan." As a part of that change, Tour Plans are no longer "approved" by the BSA. See the Tour and Activity Plan FAQ (http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/healthandsafety/tourplanfaq.aspx) which states:



The local council reviews plans but does not approve them.


So what does it mean to submit a Tour and Activity Plan to your council then? It basically means that you are notifying the Council of your activity and certifying that you will follow BSA policies. Below are few quotes from the paper Tour and Activity Plan (http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/680-014.pdf), which is basically the same as the online version.

Just above the signature line for the Committee chair or chartered organization representative (which may be signed by your Bishop) and the signature of the Adult Leader (presumably the canyoneer Scout leader) it states:



We certify that appropriate planning has been conducted using the Sweet 16 of BSA Safety, qualified and trained supervision is in place, permissions are secured, health records have been reviewed, and adult leaders have read and are in possession of a current copy of Guide to Safe Scouting and other appropriate resources.


It also states elsewhere in the form:



If climbing/rappelling is included, then Climb On Safely must be followed.


And it also provides this sobering warning:



The BSA’s general liability insurance policy provides coverage for bodily injury or property damage that arises out of an official Scouting activity as defined by the Guide to Safe Scouting. Volunteers, units, chartered organizations, and local councils that engage in unauthorized activities are jeopardizing their insurance coverage. PLEASE DO NOT PUT YOURSELF AT RISK. (emphasis added)


So basically, when you submit a Tour Plan, it isn't approved. You are saying you are going to follow the Guide to Safe Scouting (http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34416.pdf) and will comply with Climb on Safely (http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/outdoorprogram/cope/climbonsafely.aspx), and if you don't, you won't be covered by the BSA's insurance (and by implication are violating BSA policies -- and LDS Church policy, I'll get to that in a minute). So what do those publications state about canyoneering?



Units that elect to participate in … canyoneering should receive training from a nationally recognized organization that trains climbing instructors.




2. Qualified Instructors
A qualified climbing/rappelling instructor ... must supervise all BSA climbing/rappelling activities. A capable instructor has experience in teaching climbing and rappelling to youth, acknowledges personal limitations, and exercises good judgment in a variety of circumstances.
...

Sources of qualified climbing and rappelling instructors include, but are not limited to, the following:
• BSA Level II instructor (climbing director or lead instructor)
• National Outdoor Leadership School
• Wilderness Education Association
• American Mountain Guides Association
• Eastern Mountain Sports
• University or college climbing/rappelling instructors
• Professional Climbing Guide Institute
• Professional Climbing Instructors Association

For specialized climbing activities such as lead climbing, sport climbing, ice climbing, canyoneering, mountaineering, and caving, qualified instructors with specific training and skill in instructing these activities are required. (emphasis added)


So, to summarize about Tour Plans, they are not "approved" by the BSA. You agree to follow the the Guide to Safe Scouting (http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34416.pdf) and will comply with Climb on Safely (http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/outdoorprogram/cope/climbonsafely.aspx), which requires you to have "Qualified Instructors." 12 Fingers isn't on the list of approved organzations to train instructors. So, if you submit a Tour and Activity Plan, and your training is from 12 Fingers, you don't have "qualified instructors", and you jeopardize being covered by BSA insurance. :eek2:

But, you ask, what if your Bishop approves your Tour and Activity Plan? Your Bishop is required to follow BSA policies pursuant to LDS Church policies. The Scouting Handbook for Church Units in the United States (2012 version) (https://www.lds.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/scouting-handbook-2012.pdf) states:



8.9 Safety
Priesthood and Scouting leaders should refer regularly to Handbook 2, chapter 13, for policies and guidelines regarding activities and safety. Leaders should also comply with guidelines found in the Guide to Safe Scouting, published by the Boy Scouts of America. This publication is available online at www.scouting.org (http://www.scouting.org) or at local BSA council offices. Additional safety guidelines can be found on LDS.org under “Safety in Church Activities.” (emphasis added)


In addition, your Bishop may sign Tour Plans, and when he does so or otherwise approves a tour plan, he should ensure that BSA policies are followed:



4.1 Bishop
The bishop provides general direction for Scouting in the ward and ensures that it is properly organized and functioning as outlined in this publication and in Handbook 2 (8.13.4, 11.5.3). He is registered and serves as the executive officer for Scouting units chartered by the ward.


4.2 Bishop’s Counselors
3. See that Tour Plans are completed; signed by the bishop, the COR, or the committee chair; and submitted.
(emphasis added)


So, if your Bishop approves an activity that is not in conformance with BSA polices and LDS church polices, he risks jeopardizing BSA insurance coverage (as stated above) and I would suspect also jeopardizes LDS Church insurance coverage. :eek2: :eek2: :eek2: I suspect your Bishop is busy dealing with big problems and not investigating the finer points of BSA policies; help him out by telling him exactly what the rules are, and be willing to follow them.

Don't despair, there is a way to become properly trained and follow the applicable policies. Give Brandt or someone from your local council a call. They will help you. There is a way to do it within the rules. It's not easy, but it's worth it.

[kiwi_outdoors]

from my many years in Scouting T42 San Mateo), as an ASM and trained leader, I will say that oversight of BSA policies was weak. Protect yourself and your Scouts by getting appropriate training - else do not lead a trip.

[Kuya]

airman. That is one of the best review on scouting policy and tour plans I have seen. Thank you! It makes things pretty clear.

The only other question I have now is HOW DO YOU GET CERTIFIED TO TAKE THE BOYS CANYONEERING IN THE UNPC?!?!?!?!? When I have communicated with the UNPC office (via email and phone calls) they NEVER make it very clear about what I need to do. Last time they told me to take the online courses and then talk to the Owner of 12 Finger Outdoors Adventure. (Last time I talked to them was April 2013)

At that time, the UNPC had a statement their website that encouraged us to work with 12 Finger Outdoor adventure to get the training needed to take the boys climbing. That website page no longer exists, so I am assuming they are in the process of changing the policy.

Anyway, I am still super confused about what I need to do to get trained to take my boys canyoneering in the UNPC and have the blessing of the BSA.

[Mountaineer]

HOW DO YOU GET CERTIFIED TO TAKE THE BOYS CANYONEERING IN THE UNPC?!?!?!?!?

Here is the list, however due to what you've run into with 12 Finger and the varies statements around policy..., I would recommend becoming a BSA Level II lead instructor.


Sources of qualified climbing and rappelling instructors include, but are not limited to, the following:
• BSA Level II instructor (climbing director or lead instructor)
• National Outdoor Leadership School
• Wilderness Education Association
• American Mountain Guides Association
• Eastern Mountain Sports
• University or college climbing/rappelling instructors
• Professional Climbing Guide Institute
• Professional Climbing Instructors Association

[Kuya]

Thank you mountaineer :) I have seen that list before, and have assumed that is what one needs to get to be able to lead a climbing program. I wonder if that would be ok to take the kids Canyoneering as well?? :ne_nau:

Looks like I need to start bugging the scout office again. :crazycobasa:

[Mountaineer]

I wonder if that would be ok to take the kids Canyoneering as well?? :ne_nau:



Depends on your council, important to check with your climbing chair. My understanding is that it may, as only GSLC has a canyoneering program in place in Utah.

[airman]

Depends on your council, important to check with your climbing chair. My understanding is that it may, as only GSLC has a canyoneering program in place in Utah.

Good discussion here. I appreciate your great attitude, Kuya, notwithstanding the frustration!!!

Regarding Mountaineer's comment above, I don't think it is council specific. Again, I'm just some guy without authority to say so, but I think you have to have qualified climbing instructors to run a climbing/rappelling activity AND IN ADDITION you have to have specialized training for a "specialized climbing activity" such as canyoneering. In other words, you have to have be a Climbing Instructor AND be certified in Canyoneering. The Guide to Safe Scouting (http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34416.pdf) and Climb on Safely (http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/outdoorprogram/cope/climbonsafely.aspx) both require additional, specialized training for canyoneering. And since each Council has to follow Climb on Safely (http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/outdoorprogram/cope/climbonsafely.aspx), I doubt a local Council could get an exemption that says you only have to be a climbing instructor, and not have the specialized training referenced in Climb on Safely (http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/outdoorprogram/cope/climbonsafely.aspx). Here are the specific BSA National requirements (as of the date of this post - they will probably change and be updated):
[COLOR=#000000][I]
[Quote=Guide to Safe Scouting]
Units that elect to participate in

[kiwi_outdoors]

From memory: as long as you do not lead climb on rope - you are essentially rappelling and hiking and swimming when canyoneering. Where you really run afoul of BSA is that BSA wants a safety belay on all rapellers (i.e., two ropes).

[Mountaineer]

Good discussion here.

Regarding Mountaineer's comment above, I don't think it is council specific.

And since each Council has to follow Climb on Safely (http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/outdoorprogram/cope/climbonsafely.aspx), I doubt a local Council could get an exemption that says you only have to be a climbing instructor, and not have the specialized training referenced in Climb on Safely (http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/outdoorprogram/cope/climbonsafely.aspx).



Thanks airman, excellent points and discussion. Appreciate also how you presented the facts here. Great etiquette.

Each council must submit their plan/policy to National, which is then approved. For trapper trails, specifically, I know that I'm approved (by the council and nationally) to guide scouts on canyoneering trips as I personally have a) Level II BSA instructor b) multiple canyoneering specific training classes c) experience. Doesn't mean another Trapper Trail BSA leader would get the same approval.

So I stand by my previous statement. Best to call your climbing committee chair for your council to make sure you meet the council and national guidelines.

Which brings up an important note, at least for Trapper Trails. Trapper Trails is working on a specific canyoneering program (we lack it right now), similar to what GSLC has done. Hopefully we have that in place by the end of the calendar year.

[airman]

Thanks airman, excellent points and discussion. Appreciate also how you presented the facts here. Great etiquette.

Each council must submit their plan/policy to National, which is then approved. For trapper trails, specifically, I know that I'm approved (by the council and nationally) to guide scouts on canyoneering trips as I personally have a) Level II BSA instructor b) multiple canyoneering specific training classes c) experience. Doesn't mean another Trapper Trail BSA leader would get the same approval.

So I stand by my previous statement. Best to call your climbing committee chair for your council to make sure you meet the council and national guidelines.

Which brings up an important note, at least for Trapper Trails. Trapper Trails is working on a specific canyoneering program (we lack it right now), similar to what GSLC has done. Hopefully we have that in place by the end of the calendar year.

Great clarification. Thank you.

[CLE]

What I take away from this thread and my scouting experience:

1) BSA needs to clarify its position on these items. Reasonably smart people should not have ​to go back and forth, guess, and debate like this to figure it out. I have been equally confused on various aspects of climbing, canyoneering, and caving requirements. Based on a reading of the guidelines I did a few years ago, I determined I was qualified to teach instructors, but not qualified to take scouts on the activities I was considering. ???

2) Training is very important. Unfortunately, we often don't realize the importance of training until after we have received it.

3) The leaders shoulder the responsibility for the safety of his scouts. If you think you're legally covered by a magical umbrella by following the guidelines as you understand them, you are a little naive. I could relate stories, but I don't want anyone resigning from scouting. Carry good personal liability insurance.

[Mountaineer]

What I take away from this thread and my scouting experience:

1) BSA needs to clarify its position on these items. Reasonably smart people should not have ​to go back and forth, guess, and debate like this to figure it out. I have been equally confused on various aspects of climbing, canyoneering, and caving requirements. Based on a reading of the guidelines I did a few years ago, I determined I was qualified to teach instructors, but not qualified to take scouts on the activities I was considering. ???



Ugh, yes - that is confusing! The issue is that GSLC has an approved canyoneering program, so the policy is clear. For others, leaders must work with their council in order to be approved until a program is put in place.




2) Training is very important. Unfortunately, we often don't realize the importance of training until after we have received it.



Yes, for sure, but I would propose also experience and skill. I say both, as many people can do a lot of canyons and gain a ton of experience, but still can lack skill. I also know canyoneers that are expert in skill/strength, who have never had any formal training. Most of us, need to take a few classes and go/learn from others.

BSA is taking on a huge liability by stating "you are ready". Technical risk. I know when I took the BSA class there were some that had very little practical experience. Even if they passed a written test and learned a few things there, I would be reluctant to send my sons with them until they had a lot more experience.

That is why a solid program is so important. It must weigh the amount of training/ability against the feasibility of volunteers going through a practical amount of training and tests.

Side topic: it may not make sense to invest/train leaders who are only taking their troop out once? Perhaps...




3) If you think you're legally covered by a magical umbrella by following the guidelines as you understand them, you are a little naive. I could relate stories, but I don't want anyone resigning from scouting. Carry good personal liability insurance.



Certainly fair advice, but not a requirement. I'm not an attorney, but I have spoken to several since this thread started (again). Cases that were lost seemed to be for grossly negligent reasons. You don't need a LLC or umbrella insurance.

However, you need to be solid in your skills and honest with yourself. Can you lead a canyon? Have you led before? Be responsible, follow all the rules (i.e. don't bring bike helmets), and plan the outing with precision. Take at least one more experienced canyoneer with you. Have them double check and challenge everything you do. Have the scouts challenge you. Pick a trip well within all abilities.

Have fun, and provide a memorable experience.

I remember when I did high adventure as a scout many years ago, it made a difference in my life.

What you do, as a volunteer leader; will last a lifetime and make a difference in scouts lives.

[Kuya]

Here is the response to one of the emails I sent yesterday. Looks like UNPC does have a chairman of the elusive council climbing committee. I will call Dan AGAIN for the bazillionth time, and see what is going on!

68959



Also received this email just now:

68961

[reverse_dyno]

I know! Avoid the whole issue and just do canyoneering trips as separate non-BSA activities. Then you do not need to deal with the LDS Church or the BSA. The BSA is going out of style in the rest of the country anyways. Let them do the ultra safe mommy approved trips. Then you can do the fun ones outside the BSA.

[airman]

Here is the response to one of the emails I sent yesterday. Looks like UNPC does have a chairman of the elusive council climbing committee. I will call Dan AGAIN for the bazillionth time, and see what is going on!

68959



Also received this email just now:

68961

Wow. I'm pretty sure some of this isn't correct. There have been a number of fairly significant changes this year.

I'd suggest taking Brandt up on his offer that was made earlier in this thread - give him a call.

I feel sorry for you, Kuya. What a frustrating mess!

[Mountaineer]

Sounds like Dan is your source. He should know policy with National for what you can do, when it expires, etc. for your council...I'll bet you are Ok until end of year, which then your council must have an approved program in place.

Just a guess though.

[Kuya]

Wow. I'm pretty sure some of this isn't correct. There have been a number of fairly significant changes this year.

I'd suggest taking Brandt up on his offer that was made earlier in this thread - give him a call.

I feel sorry for you, Kuya. What a frustrating mess!

Thanks for sympathizing with me Airman. It really is frustrating. At the first of the year I sent out some email and made some phone calls (Brandt was one of them) in order to try and figure all of this stuff out. When I talked to Dan and Brandt then, It was made pretty clear that talking to a member of a different council (aka Brandt) was NOT helpful. welll... i can't say he wasn't completely un-helpful. he was pleasant to talk to, and he helped me see what my council is NOT doing. But other than that, my phone calls with him didn't really get me anywhere. I also took him up on his invite, and called him a few weeks ago. It was pretty much the same thing as when I talked to him at the first of the year.




Sounds like Dan is your source. He should know policy with National for what you can do, when it expires, etc. for your council...I'll bet you are Ok until end of year, which then your council must have an approved program in place.

Just a guess though.

Oh.......Dan. Yeah, I have talked with him a bunch on the phone, as well as by email. Earlier this year I called him and he told me that he was in the process of updating the climbing/rappelling/canyoneering plan in the UNPC and that a training was to be held at the end of March. I was all excited and had about 4 other guys ready to attend the training! But, when the day came for the training, Dan told me that it wasn't gonna happen, and that he would email me and keep me posted on when it would happen.

Well.... on Friday I called him again. Yeah... SAME EXACT THING! He is STILL updating the climbing and canyoneering curriculum and training and is now telling me that he will be having a class at the end of September. (I will believe that when I see it!) He also told me that only dry canyons with up to 4 or 5 rappels will be allowed. :roll:

Anyway, talking with these people is proving to make things even more complicated and frustrating.

So at the moment I think I will hold true to what I feel I know.

Take all the online BSA trainings as I can (Climb on Safely, Safe Swim Defence, Safety Afloat, Hazardous weather, etc)
Get CPR and Wilderness First Aid Trained
Get appropriate UNPC and BSA climbing training (what ever that is)
Get some professional canyoneering training
Submit a tour plan
train the boys, leaders, and Dad in basic canyoneering before the trip.
then go have an awesome time with the Scouts in Slot canyons that you have personal experience doing!


Until I find out otherwise, that is about the best I can do.

[Kuya]

2. Qualified Instructors

A qualified climbing/rappelling instructor who is at least 21 years of age and trained in the specific type of climbing must supervise all BSA climbing/rappelling activities. A capable instructor has experience in teaching climbing and rappelling to youth, acknowledges personal limitations, and exercises good judgment in a variety of circumstances.
There must be a minimum of two instructors for all climbing and rappelling activities (up to 12 participants) and one additional instructor (at least 18 years of age) for up to each additional six participants, maintaining a 6:1 ratio. Sources of qualified climbing and rappelling instructors include, but are not limited to, the following:


BSA Level II instructor (climbing director or lead instructor)
National Outdoor Leadership School
Wilderness Education Association
American Mountain Guides Association
Eastern Mountain Sports
University or college climbing/rappelling instructors
Professional Climbing Guide Institute
Professional Climbing Instructors Association

For specialized climbing activities such as lead climbing, sport climbing, ice climbing, canyoneering, mountaineering, and caving, qualified instructors with specific training and skill in instructing these activities are required.
Qualified instruction is essential to conducting a safe climbing/rappelling activity. Some people who claim to be qualified or have had some experience with climbing or rappelling may lack sufficient knowledge to safely conduct these activities. For instance, some climbers with a lot of experience have repeated the same mistakes many times without learning correct procedures.

So I am going at it again with the UNPC. Looks like the climbing director quit, BUT I have received some direction on how to proceed with getting the correct certifications. I was told by Bob Gowens to contact Ben Allen and his staff at CLAS Ropes for the training. He made it knows that the training received there will be sufficient to make you a "qualified instructor" and will allow you to manage climbing programs as required by BSA Topping out and Climb On Safely.

As far as canyoneering is concerned, it looks like it is mentioned now in the literature as a "Specialized activity" and as such, qualified instructors with specific training and skill in instructing those activities are now required. My only question now is: what qualifies as good canyoneering training? and whose training is "good"?

[burnsdye]

When I spoke with the guys at CLAS last year, they said they only offered the rock climbing instructor course once a year. Kuya, when you find out the date, please post it here so the rest of can sign up too.

[airman]

My only question now is: what qualifies as good canyoneering training? and whose training is "good"?

I believe the only person on this thread who can answer your question with authority kindly offered a way to contact him in post #40. I'd give him a call.

I appreciate and admire your diligence in desiring to obtain the appropriate training. :2thumbs:

[Kuya]

I believe the only person on this thread who can answer your question with authority kindly offered a way to contact him in post #40. I'd give him a call.

I appreciate and admire your diligence in desiring to obtain the appropriate training. :2thumbs:

I have talked to Brandt a few times now, and he doesnt have any authority in the UNPC (that I'm aware of anyway). As far as I understand, he works for the GSLC. Those of us in the UNPC have to work with people in our council. The information I just posted comes from Robert (Bob) Gowens and a few other UNPC Council members.

As far as being able to participate in his training...? Yeah, I asked him about that too. He pretty much told me no, that the class is to full and he couldn't sneak me in :(

[Spidey]

I have been on the climbing committee for UNPC for a few years now, and you have been given faulty information. The only person that can certify you as a climbing instructor is a Climbing director period. Clas ropes is not, nor is Dan from 12 fingers. If you would like honest accurate information feel free to p.m. me.

[Kuya]

I have been on the climbing committee for UNPC for a few years now, and you have been given faulty information. The only person that can certify you as a climbing instructor is a Climbing director period. Clas ropes is not, nor is Dan from 12 fingers. If you would like honest accurate information feel free to p.m. me.
Spidey, I am so confused! I have multiple emails in my inbox, not even a week old, from people in the UNPC telling me to specifically go get training from the guys at CLAS Ropes in Provo, and that it WILL make me a "qualified instructor" which fulfils the requirement in the BSA Climb On Safely, thus allowing me to take my Scouts into Utah's beautiful vertical world.

It seems to me that UNPC truly has struck some kind of deal with CLAS Ropes.

[Spidey]

@Spidey (http://www.bogley.com/forum/member.php?u=17752), I am so confused! I have multiple emails in my inbox, not even a week old, from people in the UNPC telling me to specifically go get training from the guys at CLAS Ropes in Provo, and that it WILL make me a "qualified instructor" which fulfils the requirement in the BSA Climb On Safely, thus allowing me to take my Scouts into Utah's beautiful vertical world.

It seems to me that UNPC truly has struck some kind of deal with CLAS Ropes.


Unless the gentlemen at CLAS ropes has recently become a climbing director, which is possible. He hasn't to my knowledge, but it is possible. If he is not? He is not in a position to certify anyone, regardless of what UNPC says it would not be recognized by national. Also how long is the course he offers? If it is not a minimum of 3 days it does not meet any of the criteria. I am sorry but the UNPC is impotent and being run by lesser men who don't understand the situation or the danger that leaders are putting these young men in. It will probably take a fatality for them to wake up. Clark and I tried for 4 years to get them to implement even a few common sense solutions, to no avail. They now appear to be rubber stamping policy written by people who happen to have connections at the council, but who have no business writing policy for anyone but themselves!

The sad truth is the UNPC is an absolute Fluster Cuck, and they are not getting better they are getting worse.

[Kuya]

I don't disagree with you Spidey. I think there is much to be improved upon as far as the UNPC climbing/canyoneering program is concerned. BUT, as far as I am concerned as a leader, if I take the training that they specifically tell me to take, then I am covered by them.

[airman]

BUT, as far as I am concerned as a leader, if I take the training that they specifically tell me to take, then I am covered by them.

:nono: I don't think so. The paper version of the Tour Plan (http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/680-014.pdf) makes this pretty clear (I think anyway):

[QUOTE=Tour Plan]Unauthorized and Restricted Activities: The BSA

[Kuya]

Then what the H@!#$ is a leader supose to do in the UNPC council?????? Ya take their training, you submit an approved tour plan. WHAT MORE AM I SUPPOSED TO DO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Spidey]

Then what the H@!#$ is a leader supose to do in the UNPC council?????? Ya take their training, you submit an approved tour plan. WHAT MORE AM I SUPPOSED TO DO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Welcome to the UNPC it's a complete and total Fluster Cuck, get used to it. I have been leaving exclamation points like that in my wake for years now.

[Kuya]

Welcome to the UNPC it's a complete and total Fluster Cuck, get used to it. I have been leaving exclamation points like that in my wake for years now.

I feel for ya Spidey. I really do. I wish they would just listen to experts like you and get a quality program up and running.

[airman]

Then what the H@!#$ is a leader supose to do in the UNPC council?????? Ya take their training, you submit an approved tour plan. WHAT MORE AM I SUPPOSED TO DO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tough question. I can empathize with your frustration!

The bottom line is that you need to comply with BSA National and council policies. That is the only way to protect yourself, your family, and your Scouts.

As I've said before on this thread, I don't have the authority from the BSA or any of the local councils to interpret BSA policies. But if I were in the UNPC, I would conclude that I could not undertake a unit-level climbing or canyoneering activity until I had successfully completed a BSA National-approved training program, which would be very, very frustrating when such a program appears to be elusive within the UNPC. And doing an approved week long course at Philmont or elsewhere would probably be outside the limits of my resources.

The good news is that BSA National has created an accreditation program for council climbing programs. This is what Brandt Jones was talking about in post #40 on this thread. More information about the accreditation program can be found in the National Camp Accreditation Program (NCAP) Circular No. 2 (http://www.scouting.org/filestore/youthprotection/pdf/NCAP_Circular_2.pdf). This accreditation program requires the council to have a Program Manager who submits a council training program to a Training Program Evaluator for review (see Circular No. 2, page 9, section SQ-409(B)(2)(b). More information about Program Managers can be found here (https://www.ncsbsa.org/resources/ncs/2014%20NCS%20COPE-Climbing%20Program%20Manager%20Flyer.pdf).

The reason I suggested in post #65 that you contact Brandt Jones is because I understand that he is the Training Program Evaluator for the UNPC. He is also responsible for an unbelievable amount of effort to bring canyoneering to the BSA in a formal and approved manner in the GSLC and is in the process of helping other councils do the same. It's true that he is a volunteer for the GSLC, but he also has other climbing-related responsibilities higher up in the BSA. I'd suggest you give him a call. You might not like what he has to tell you, but he can tell you some of the things that are required for the UNPC to get an approved canyoneering program. I think the link to his contact information in post #40 is dead, but the same information can be found at the bottom of this page (http://www.gslc-bsa.org/training/leader-training/climbing-rappelling-canyoneering/55573).

Best of luck. I hope that you will be a pioneer in getting the UNPC an approved canyoneering program.The council needs a dedicated group of volunteers to make it happen. Please pony up, get your friends to pony up, and get the program going. :2thumbs:

[Kuya]

I have talked with Brandt at least 3 times in the past year and a half. My conversations with him are always the same. he talks about how great his program is in the GSLC and then he tells me that the UNPC program is no good. Talking with him has been very educational, yet very frustrating.

Since I am in the UNPC, I need them to tell me what they want me to do! Interestingly enough, there is a University of Scouting event going on at UVU on Feb 8. One of the breakouts is about canyoneering. I think I will be there! Ill let ya know what I learn.

[geckobiker]

I would love to see what the Canyoneering training is at the University of Scouting. Kuya, please let us all know.

This has been an interesting thread. I have been involved with the GSLC climbing program almost since its birth. I took the second class they held way back in 2000, and have been involved ever since. It has come a long way. When canyoneering began to be an issue for our council, there was a lot of thought and discussion on how to handle it, and keep it BSA legal. Yes, there were battles, the BSA way would take too long in a canyon,:crazycobasa: and I heard a lot of "that's just the way we do it in canyoneering:hail2thechief:". Thank goodness for a few that stepped up to create the GLSC Canyoneering Program, and had the forethought to work with Rich Carlson at the beginning. Sorry, but I can’t remember Spidey at any meetings. To those who continue its evolution, Thanks. I wish I could have been more a part, but employment issues kept me away. Really appreciative for Brandt's time and effort to expand the program to what it is today. I feel for the members of UNPC for the Lack of Vision from their council. :2thumbs:Thanks airman for the outstanding posts.

[Canyoneerman]

Five years ago I contacted the GSLC to see what I needed to do, to be BSA approved to go canyoneering. It was way too much of a hassle and cost to have to take the training every 2 years. Who’s going to pay for that and why do I need to re-certify every 2 years? It’s just too much effort and money every 2 years, for the 1 or 2 canyoneering trips I would do with my scouts in a year.

I made the easy decision to just take my scouts and do non-technical canyons. There are plenty of fun canyons for scouts that are not technical. It’s just not worth my time to figure out the ever evolving BSA policies.

[geckobiker]

[QUOTE=Canyoneerman;552055]Five years ago I contacted the GSLC to see what I needed to do, to be BSA approved to go canyoneering. It was way too much of a hassle and cost to have to take the training every 2 years. Who

[Exergy]

About three years ago Rich and Brandt held a two day certification event in SLC. The first day was classroom work on BSA climbing policy with a test at the end of the night. That's when we learned that certification required a 100% on the written exam. The last question: recite the BSA Mission and Vision Statements, no mistakes allowed. Then came the pitch that Rich would be glad to provide a guide service for a greatly discounted rate to any troop. Brandt later admitted that they didn't intend to certify anyone through that event but were trying to get an idea of what skill level existed in the area. Getting 20 guys together under false pretenses soured me toward their efforts for life. This thread hasn't done anything to change that. Since then I've taken "a group of friends from our neighborhood" out and have their parents sign a waiver acknowledging the inherent risks and releasing me from liability. Not sure if it's worth the paper it's written on but at least I don't worry anymore. Ignorance is bliss.

[Kuya]

So I attended the UNPC University of Scouting's Canyoneering class this weekend. And come to find out, the presenter didn't have a clue about the looming liability issues that we all care about. At the moment the UNPC does NOT really have a functioning climbing committee. However, I did talk to the Council Caving Chairperson, and she told me what has been stated in previous threads and communications. CLAS Ropes is the place to go to become a "certified" climbing instructor; thus allowing a scout leader to manage a climbing and rappelling program for their Units.

Interesting enough, it was also mentioned that BSA National doesn't have a clue about what Brandt Jones is doing with Canyoneering LOL. sounds like there is a bit of a disconnect there! who knows what is true anymore?!?!

[airman]

... I've taken "a group of friends from our neighborhood" out and have their parents sign a waiver acknowledging the inherent risks and releasing me from liability. Not sure if it's worth the paper it's written on but at least I don't worry anymore.

You should worry. In 2001, the Utah Supreme Court took away the ability of a parent to waive a child's negligence claim. The case is Hawkins v. Peart.


Ignorance is bliss.

Having BSA policy explained to you and choosing to not follow it isn't ignorance. :ne_nau:

I understand the difficulties and frustrations that can come with endeavoring to follow BSA policies. But choosing to do otherwise (i.e. exposing minors to risks by not having the appropriate training and following appropriate standards) is selfish and unwise.

[airman]

Interesting enough, it was also mentioned that BSA National doesn't have a clue about what Brandt Jones is doing with Canyoneering LOL. sounds like there is a bit of a disconnect there! who knows what is true anymore?!?!

So that I may independently verify this information, would you kindly indicate who at BSA National indicated that they don't have a clue what Brandt Jones is doing?

[moab mark]

It's to bad that it has gotten so convoluted. I now just take a few of my 12 year old sons friends and their dad's. We use to do Zion every other year as a scout camp. Subway one day order ville another. Young men talk about it at their mission farewells. For many youth it was the highlight of their youth.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

[Exergy]

You should worry. In 2001, the Utah Supreme Court took away the ability of a parent to waive a child's negligence claim. The case is Hawkins v. Peart.

Good reference. Will update the form to include the child's signature.



Having BSA policy explained to you and choosing to not follow it isn't ignorance.

True statement. Note that ignorance was never claimed of BSA policy, just the value of the waiver.


I understand the difficulties and frustrations that can come with endeavoring to follow BSA policies. But choosing to do otherwise (i.e. exposing minors to risks by not having the appropriate training and following appropriate standards) is selfish and unwise.

Unwise?
* Perhaps an understatement
* BSA representatives don't present a united front
* BSA climbing/canyoneering policy disjointed
* Little precedence between councils
* Attended 2-day canyoneering certification event with the ambition of gaining certification; was advised at the end of the first day that the course was not as advertised and none of the 20-ish attendees would gain certification; due diligence attempted at least once
* The system has been broken for a number of years (at least one generation of scouts that I'm aware of) and time marches on; some consider it irresponsible to deny upcoming generations the life experiences provided to previous generations due to lack of sponsoring organization
* One of the unintended consequences of this broken policy is that youth are diverted to less than high-adventure activities such as "hotel camping" and video games
* Not sure that these lesser activities were envisioned by the founders of scouting
* Some feel it is their civic responsibility to provide high adventure experiences whether or not a recognized organization supports those opportunities with a documented process and structure
* Previous experience at organized scout camps has been good and bad; one in particular included rappelling into the Paris Caves in a manner inconsistent with BSA climbing policy
* Current BSA policy doesn't take into account the wide variety of knowledge, skills, abilities, experience, training, standards or personal judgement; it is unreasonable to expect that BSA policy would cover all possibilities; it is hoped that BSA policy will progress by expanding allowable definitions
* Certain individuals will exercise good judgement whether or not a structured organization recognizes their knowledge, skills, abilities
* The current climbing policy of the BSA is unfortunate and best wishes are offered to those who are attempting to make the policy friendly and safe, especially the volunteers

Selfish?
* Not neccesarily
* Taking youth to lesser adventure activities to avoid personal liability can also be considered selfish
* Insurance coverage does not change the likelihood of bad things happening
* Insurance coverage does not change the risk mitigation efforts of some individuals (+ or -)
* Life is short; one must sometimes consider and accept the risk of action with or without a legal structure for protection

[moab mark]

My experience has been if your trying this concept with an lds group, your leaders should be striking this down. When the first presidency sent out that letter (which is on bogley somewhere) it shot down canyoneering without certified training. Scouting or not. Our YW are wanting me to take them on a small route in Moab and got shot down. I just gave up and now go as stated as dad's and son's. Yes still accepting a bunch of liability. If we stopped doing things because of liability might as well take up knitting. But hey what about the needles.....

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

[moab mark]

Oh and now Arches has restricted us to a few guys. So much for youth groups in the park. Can't win for trying.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

[Kuya]

So that I may independently verify this information, would you kindly indicate who at BSA National indicated that they don't have a clue what Brandt Jones is doing?

I don't have a clue who it would be. I received my information from the Council Climbing Chairperson. Her name is Debbie Spoons. Her contact info is easily found on the Council website.

[airman]

I don't have a clue who it would be. I received my information from the Council Climbing Chairperson. Her name is Debbie Spoons. Her contact info is easily found on the Council website.

Thanks! :2thumbs:

[airman]

Good reference. Will update the form to include the child's signature.

Unwise?

.............

Selfish?
.............

Thank you for the very thoughtful response. You make some great points. :cool2:

Please consider that obtaining the child's signature won't likely serve as a waiver of the child's claim of negligence. An attorney can help properly advise you on liability waivers and their effectiveness. Perhaps you wish to remain ignorant. I think it would be a good idea for you to reconsider, and take the time to obtain a solid understanding of the legal consequences of undertaking higher-risk activities with minors, regardless of whether it is under the auspices of an organization or not. The law does not look well upon an injured minor, especially when an adult is involved.

I have seen too many Scout groups in the canyons that were unqualified and unprepared and I tend to have a visceral reaction to Scout leaders that try and skirt the rules or ignore them. Perhaps that isn't the case with you specifically, and if it isn't, I apologize. But, as a broad generalization, I stand by my statement that Scout leaders that knowingly violate BSA policies are selfish and unwise.

I agree with your assessment of the limited resources for Scout leaders and lack of support for a canyoneering program, at least outside the GSLC and Trapper Trails. It's unfortunate and frustrating. I also heartily agree with your assessment of the need for boys to experience challenging activities in the outdoors. Where I think we differ is drawing the line between undertaking higher risk activities with with minors, and when and how it is appropriate to do so. I respect your viewpoint, even if I disagree with some of it. I also hope that others who are developing their own viewpoint will carefully consider the risks involved, obtain the proper training, use good judgment, and approach the matter with caution. There are non-technical canyons and a whole host of other challenging activities for youth to participate in that don't involve a screen or a cabin/condo.

[Sandstone Addiction]

I stand by my statement that Scout leaders that knowingly violate BSA policies are selfish and unwise..

...and hypocrites.


A Scout is Trustworthy, Loyal,...Obedient,...

I'm pretty sure this not only applies to Scouts, but leaders as well.

[Spidey]

I don't have a clue who it would be. I received my information from the Council Climbing Chairperson. Her name is Debbie Spoons. Her contact info is easily found on the Council website.

Unfortunately this is yet another example of UNPC not having a clue. National is well aware of what Brandt has been doing, in fact he is now some kind of regional person over several councils. He will have to delineate all of that. Brandt also went back to national and presented his plan to them before he implemented it. UNPC is clueless, but I digress.

[Kuya]

Climbing Policy Update for the UNPC:

I recently completed a BSA Level 2 Climbing course in the UNPC. This was a 35 hour class where everything from from topping out was covered and practical rescue skills were demonstrated and tested.

I was encouraged by the class. The training received was solid and definitely prepares Unit leaders to effectively manage a simple climbing and rappelling program.

However, this class did not do any kind of training for canyoneering. When I ask the UNPC Climbing Director (Debbie Spoons as of right now) about canyoneering policy, she doesn't have a answer for me. I'm hoping to get this figured out soon.

[whansen]

Good luck. I started down that path in the GSLC. And found hours of training and recertification. In my experience it was to much work. A lot of rules and regulations to keep up on. In my opinion it just isn't worth the liability to run a activity. Maybe it could be doable if that was my only responsibility.

[Kuya]

Thanks! this whole process is nutz!

[whansen]

I was thinking if UNPC don't have a canyon policy yet. You might be good to go with just being a CL2 instructor. The GSLC doesn't have a set caving policy yet although i heard its in the works. So all I have to do is a tour permit and we go caving.

[airman]

I was thinking if UNPC don't have a canyon policy yet. You might be good to go with just being a CL2 instructor. The GSLC doesn't have a set caving policy yet although i heard its in the works. So all I have to do is a tour permit and we go caving.

Canyoneering is specifically stated as requiring specialized training in Climb On Safely. Just being a CL2 instructor isn't enough. Also, the GSLC climbing policy specifically applies to caving. It is also an area that Climb On Safely requires specialized training beyond CL2. I wouldn't assume that filing a tour plan will protect you if you do not adhere to the requirements of Climbing on Safely, the Guide to Safe Scouting, or the GSLC climbing policy.

[whansen]

Canyoneering is specifically stated as requiring specialized training in Climb On Safely. Just being a CL2 instructor isn't enough. Also, the GSLC climbing policy specifically applies to caving. It is also an area that Climb On Safely requires specialized training beyond CL2. I wouldn't assume that filing a tour plan will protect you if you do not adhere to the requirements of Climbing on Safely, the Guide to Safe Scouting, or the GSLC climbing policy.
I understand that. But if a council like UNPC does not have a policy in place that states what enough is to run a canyon activity what are they supposed to do.
And in the GSLC the climbing policy that I learned and was tested on only applies to caving if your using ropes.

[airman]

I understand that. But if a council like UNPC does not have a policy in place that states what enough is to run a canyon activity what are they supposed to do.

You can't run the activity as a BSA Climbing Instructor in that council. I think that is the source of the frustration expressed elsewhere in this thread. Climb on Safely requires specialized training for canyoneering, caving, etc. If your council doesn't have approved specialized training from BSA National for these activities, they you can't undertake the activity merely as a BSA Climbing Instructor. Absence of a council policy, or participating in a council that doesn't comply with BSA National policies doesn't create an opportunity to violate Climb on Safely or the Guide to Safe Scouting. It just means you'll probably sink on the same ship as your council if an accident occurs.




And in the GSLC the climbing policy that I learned and was tested on only applies to caving if your using ropes.

I think you are generally correct on that. But you still have to follow other BSA polices, including the Guide to Safe Scouting, which references the BSA Caving Policy (http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/19-102B.pdf).

[whansen]

You can't run the activity as a BSA Climbing Instructor in that council. I think that is the source of the frustration expressed elsewhere in this thread. Climb on Safely requires specialized training for canyoneering, caving, etc. If your council doesn't have approved specialized training from BSA National for these activities, they you can't undertake the activity merely as a BSA Climbing Instructor. Absence of a council policy, or participating in a council that doesn't comply with BSA National policies doesn't create an opportunity to violate Climb on Safely or the Guide to Safe Scouting. It just means you'll probably sink on the same ship as your council if an accident occurs.



I think you are generally correct on that. But you still have to follow other BSA polices, including the Guide to Safe Scouting, which references the BSA Caving Policy (http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/19-102B.pdf).

Which takes me back to my origianl comment to Kuya. "Good Luck"


Yes, I use the Guide to Safe Scouting and BSA Caving Policy with every caving trip we go on. These policys are very simple. And the best thing is the Caving Policy requires you to have caving experience but not days of BSA training and testing. But some day soon I'm sure it will.

[Kuya]

Which takes me back to my origianl comment to Kuya. "Good Luck"


Yes, I use the Guide to Safe Scouting and BSA Caving Policy with every caving trip we go on. These policys are very simple. And the best thing is the Caving Policy requires you to have caving experience but not days of BSA training and testing. But some day soon I'm sure it will.

UNPC has a pretty extensive caving policy now. have you talked to Debbie Spoons (The UNPC Caving Chairperson). From talking to her any scout troop that wants to go caving needs to take a training from her. There is also list of approved caves that BSA Troops can go into.

[whansen]

No I haven't talked to her. But I have talk to GSLC people. It would be interesting to see what UNPC has built in addition to the national policy.

[airman]

BSA National recently updated its climbing web page (http://www.scouting.org/Home/OutdoorProgram/COPE.aspx). It includes a link to download the recently-released manual, Belay On, which I believe is a replacement for Topping Out.

[geckobiker]

Below is a link on climbing from BSA National. It describes the how the Climbing Program must be run on a Council Level if they want to train their own BSA Level I or BSA Level II instructors. I am not sure if UNPC has their program approved yet. That would be a great question to Debbie Spoons.

http://www.scouting.org/Home/OutdoorProgram/COPE.aspx (http://www.scouting.org/Home/OutdoorProgram/COPE.aspx)

Unit climbing MUST follow the 8 principles in the Climb on Safely document. Please read and understand before you take youth out on ropes. It is very clear.

[geckobiker]

:popcorn:
.

[bbjones]

BSA has made a lot of changes.

I hope people will understand the need to have trained instructors.

Brandt

[Kuya]

BSA has made a lot of changes.

I hope people will understand the need to have trained instructors.

Brandt

what do you think of the new Belay On book. To me it tries to encompass way too much information. I think the BSA should keep COPE and Climbing separate.

[moab mark]

Can anyone list what training is required to take Scouts Canyoneering now? Every website seems to contradict another one?

[geckobiker]

The definitive answer is found in the document "Climb on Safely". See the section on qualified instructors. There is a council that has a Canyoneering training program that has been approved by BSA National, and some others are working on getting approved.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Kuya]

Can anyone list what training is required to take Scouts Canyoneering now? Every website seems to contradict another one?
Need have specialized training.... whatever that means.

[whansen]

It seems like this thread just keeps going round and round.

[Kuya]

It seems like this thread just keeps going round and round.

It is, but at least the circle is getting tighter. the UNPC actually has a legit BSA Climbing Level I & II certification course now. The first class was held in January, and there are a few others in the Council scheduled for this month.

Canyoneering is still a mess though.

[moab mark]

It is, but at least the circle is getting tighter. the UNPC actually has a legit BSA Climbing Level I & II certification course now. The first class was held in January, and there are a few others in the Council scheduled for this month.

Canyoneering is still a mess though.

Yea it's discouraging. IMO BSA or those that have been put in charge of establishing the policy have made the process so difficult and cumbersome that they do not want Scouts Canyoneering. Be nice if there was a list of Canyons with a reasonable amount of training you can take Scouts thru. Orderville Subway come to mind.

[moab mark]

Has any Bogleyite gone thru GSLC complete program and are now able to take Scouts Canyoneering? If you have could you give us a precise list of what was required?

[moab mark]

http://www.gslc-bsa.org/document/council-unit-climbing-policy/74343

Does anyone know where the link is to be a Canyon Leader? Also what Canyons are on the list for a Level 1 Canyon Leader?

[geckobiker]

I have been thru all of the training. A couple of issues sharing the training. It is only valid in the GSLC. Currently there is no plan for any cross council training with the UNPC, for a lot of reasons. The UNPC climbing program has not been approved by national. Specialized training I read as a amga guide with some sort of canyoneering endorsement, or equivalent.

I know this is a mess. I wish some leadership in the UNPC would pull their heads out and realize what a disaster they have created because " they are the enlightened council".


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mac]

Geckobiker, you may need an extra large bucket of popcorn before reading the following.

I seriously doubt that the UNPC has had their program approved. Why would BSA approve a council's program that doesn’t follow the prescribed curriculum?

Interesting. 35 hour course using Topping out. BSA released their new manual, Belay On, earlier this year. Why didn’t the UNPC use the new book?

From one of the links in an above post, I downloaded their course syllabi and found them to be very informative. There is also a great resource describing the process for councils to get their training programs evaluated.

In the NCAP manual it says that the prerequisite for Climbing Level II instructor is to be a Climbing Level I instructor. (pages sq-409-2,3)

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/outdoor%20program/pdf/430-056.pdf


Kuya, were you all ready a Climbing Level I instructor before you took the Level II course?


Climbing Level I instructor course = 26 hours

Climbing Level II instructor course = 42 hours

If I can do my math correctly that adds up to 68 hours of training not 35.

This is just to take scouts on a simple top-rope climb or rappel.

The AMGA requires 43 hours of training and assessment not including their prerequisites that are extensive for their single pitch instructor.

As I looked over the BSA courses, they seamed to involve team building and other BSA type items. This could account for the additional hours. I loved that the first lesson plan after “getting acquainted” is “ Leave No Trace.” There are other lessons like “Basic Maintenance” that don’t seam to apply to taking scouts up AF canyon. Perhaps, this is where Kuya’s class was shorter than prescribed in the training syllabi. Kuya also made the statement that he thinks the new book has too much information. I found just the opposite. There is little to no mention of Canyoneering, Ice climbing, lead climbing, aid climbing, canopy tours, technical caving or even much about rescue techniques. I wouldn’t be surprised that future books dabble in or include theses items. A future book will probably include the information from the scouts caving booklet.

It looks to me that the BSA is trying to actually develop climbing instructors. That is to say single pitch instructors. Their program appears to be inline with national and, one could argue, international standards.

I will ask the question again. Why would the boy scouts approve a program that doesn’t follow the prescribed course curriculum?


AND THEN THERE IS CANYONEERING

When I read Climb on Safely, for canyoneering it looks as if a top-rope “guide” is the minimum amount of training required who then has “specific training and skill in instructing” canyoneering.

A year or so ago, I spoke with a guy from the scouts in Salt Lake county. They seem to have a program for training canyon guides. I really doubt their program is even close to a true canyon guide. I was also told that the basic training to go canyoneering all starts with, using a term outside of BSA but one that I would hope all on this forum would understand, an AMGA single pitch guide who then has canyoneering specific training as an instructor. I don’t think there are even 10 individuals here on Bogley with anything close to this training level.

I only mention the following because most of the scouts in Utah are associated with the Mormon church. There is document where the Mormon prophet says you can go climbing with “trained or certified guides.” I won’t debate what “certified” means. It looks as if the Mormon church understands that to go climbing or rappelling you need to go with someone that is properly trained.

The question is continually asked, "What is required?" There are a lot of people on Bogley who have called the council in Salt Lake County and didn’t get the answer they were looking for. They then bitched and complained about it. There are even a few individuals who started and decided they didn’t want to invest the time to do it. Sarcastically stated and asked, “I’ve done pine creek before. Why can’t I take the scouts down Imlay?”

I was told by the guy in Salt Lake, that they had been trying for years to get all the councils in Utah to get a canyoneering training programs that would be acceptable to everyone. From what I understand, the council up north has a canyoneering specific program that is just for their area and doesn’t apply to other councils. Their program was probably scrutinized by their attorneys and their uppity-ups. I would wager, their program is just approved for their council.

A year or so ago I ran into a group of scouts from Arizona who had just completed a trip down Pine Creek. They were lead by some canyon guides from the council in Salt Lake. One of the scoutmasters told me that they were going to develop a canyoneering program for their scouts. I wouldn't doubt it if they have done just that.

I also ran into a group of scouts in Colorado doing some ice climbing. I was told they have a fully approved ice climbing program in their area.

Liability. We all seem to blame the attorneys. I tend to blame people who think they are better than they really are. They have an accident. Then the attorneys get involved.

We all push the limit. The activities I enjoy have a window of safety. Sometimes that window is small. I hope I will always return home safely. I hope my companions and friends will return home safely. I hope that those whom I have convinced I know what I am doing will always return home safely.

Are we/you willing to take responsibility for another person’s life?

I too hope Kuya and friends can get this figured out.

Geckobiker, did you finish your bucket of popcorn?

Mac

[Kuya]

Kuya, were you all ready a Climbing Level I instructor before you took the Level II course?


Climbing Level I instructor course = 26 hours

Climbing Level II instructor course = 42 hours

If I can do my math correctly that adds up to 68 hours of training not 35.

This is just to take scouts on a simple top-rope climb or rappel.

The AMGA requires 43 hours of training and assessment not including their prerequisites that are extensive for their single pitch instructor.

As I looked over the BSA courses, they seamed to involve team building and other BSA type items. This could account for the additional hours. I loved that the first lesson plan after “getting acquainted” is “ Leave No Trace.” There are other lessons like “Basic Maintenance” that don’t seam to apply to taking scouts up AF canyon. Perhaps, this is where Kuya’s class was shorter than prescribed in the training syllabi. Kuya also made the statement that he thinks the new book has too much information. I found just the opposite. There is little to no mention of Canyoneering, Ice climbing, lead climbing, aid climbing, canopy tours, technical caving or even much about rescue techniques. I wouldn’t be surprised that future books dabble in or include theses items. A future book will probably include the information from the scouts caving booklet.


I too hope Kuya and friends can get this figured out.
Slow day at work haha, I actually read your whole post LOL!

When I referred to the new book containing to much info, I was complaining about them combining COPE and climbing. I would rather that content be separated. Just thought I'd make that clear :)

Additionally, I'd rather not talk about the 4 climbing certification classes I took in the UNPC since 2012. They made me think I was covered by bsa and actually trained to go climbing and canyoneering. Come to find out, I was most likely ruining programs with out the bsa really backing me.... anyway, yes I was supposedly level 1 & 2 "certified" before this class.

The climbing director in the UNPC works closely with national. (At least she says she does.) The last class she did was really good. I feel that leaders that take that class will leave prepared to run unit level climbing programs safely.

Canyoneering policy had not been made.

[Kuya]

http://www.utahscouts.org/event/1677630

That is the link for anyone who wants to participate in the next round of Climbing training for the UNPC.

[moab mark]

So I talked to Trappers Trails yesterday. Still somewhat confused but according to them you need to have Climb on Certification and Commercial training. They consider ACA or Dark Horse or ...... as qualified training. Exactly how much training you need they didn't seem to have an answer. They will not accept UNPC training. They will accept GSLC training.

[Mac]

http://www.utahscouts.org/event/1677630

UNPC 32 hours for level 1 and 2?

Wow!!!!!!!

And this is approved??????????????

Why do I find it hard to believe that BSA would give UNPC approval to NOT teach the prescribed courses? The program evaluation process seems to be spelled out clearly in the BSA web page. I wonder how UNPC is able to get their program approved without teaching what BSA has developed.

Has anyone else on this forum read the BSA courses?

They are laid out quit well. They appear to be very comprehensive. They seem to be approaching what could be described as a worldwide standard for someone who wants to take the liability for someone else’s life.

I would think that if the Boy Scouts were to allow a council to teach a lower standard than what is spelled out in their courses, and something went wrong and a boy was hurt, there could be some real liability issues.

But I am not an attorney.

Mac

[Kuya]

You should contact Debbie Spoons. She is the UNPC climbing director. I would love to have some others voice their oppinion. The UNPC needs a lot of help.

[geckobiker]

It would be nice if they would stop being self righteous and take the help that has been offered multiple times. Perhaps they should really read all the religious stuff they post and start living it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[owenfw]

A small update to this conversation:

In a conversation with Debbie Spoons of UNPC yesterday, she stated very clearly that the guidelines in Climb on Safely apply only to unit activities, not council activities, which they have different policies for. Climb on Safely does say this (subtitle "Requirements for Unit Climbing and Rappelling"), but I think a lot of people haven't understood the implications of this, at least as interpreted now by UNPC. The main upshot for me personally is that while a unit may consider me a "qualified instructor" because I'm an AMGA SPI (listed as acceptable training in Climb on Safely), the council does not. They will not refer me to units as a qualified instructor, allow me to network with them through their closed FB group, allow me to participate in council events as a climbing instructor, assist with their training, or become trained by them other than by attending the full course they offer to everyone, including non-climbers. The only training they accept is their own. The rationale as I understand it is that 1) they can't trust training received anywhere else and 2) they and the BSA have special requirements (read paperwork) that must be followed and can't be explained other than through their 32 hour course. The BSA does provide on their website for climbing instructors certified elsewhere to be treated as instructors renewing their BSA cert, but UNPC does not allow this option. So you could be a pinned IFMGA Mountain Guide and still have to sit through all 32 hours before UNPC will touch you.

Of course I have some mixed feelings about this, but policy is policy. I do worry that this creates the potential for qualified instructors following the publicly available guidelines for unit activities to be hung out to dry if an insurance situation ever comes up. Theoretically following the public guidelines should protect you, but I can only imagine what a lawyer could do with the mismatch in certifications accepted at the unit and council levels.

But the main takeaway for me from my conversation with Debbie (who, by the way, was very patient with me since this was so hard for me to wrap my head around) was that any assumptions anyone has been making about what training might be acceptable in UNPC for climbing or rappelling mean nothing unless directly confirmed by UNPC. So unless you have your own insurance or are sure that e.g. the LDS Church will have your back if the BSA doesn't, be very, very careful.

[owenfw]

Very careful as in probably don't take scouts climbing or in a canyon at all.

[geckobiker]

Try being trained by BSA National Camp School, been on staff at BSA National Camp School, and a Climbing Section Lead for National Camp School, and they wont let you into their club. I am a current Level II/Director.

[Kuya]

A small update to this conversation:

In a conversation with Debbie Spoons of UNPC yesterday, she stated very clearly that the guidelines in Climb on Safely apply only to unit activities, not council activities, which they have different policies for. Climb on Safely does say this (subtitle "Requirements for Unit Climbing and Rappelling"), but I think a lot of people haven't understood the implications of this, at least as interpreted now by UNPC. The main upshot for me personally is that while a unit may consider me a "qualified instructor" because I'm an AMGA SPI (listed as acceptable training in Climb on Safely), the council does not. They will not refer me to units as a qualified instructor, allow me to network with them through their closed FB group, allow me to participate in council events as a climbing instructor, assist with their training, or become trained by them other than by attending the full course they offer to everyone, including non-climbers. The only training they accept is their own. The rationale as I understand it is that 1) they can't trust training received anywhere else and 2) they and the BSA have special requirements (read paperwork) that must be followed and can't be explained other than through their 32 hour course. The BSA does provide on their website for climbing instructors certified elsewhere to be treated as instructors renewing their BSA cert, but UNPC does not allow this option. So you could be a pinned IFMGA Mountain Guide and still have to sit through all 32 hours before UNPC will touch you.

Of course I have some mixed feelings about this, but policy is policy. I do worry that this creates the potential for qualified instructors following the publicly available guidelines for unit activities to be hung out to dry if an insurance situation ever comes up. Theoretically following the public guidelines should protect you, but I can only imagine what a lawyer could do with the mismatch in certifications accepted at the unit and council levels.

But the main takeaway for me from my conversation with Debbie (who, by the way, was very patient with me since this was so hard for me to wrap my head around) was that any assumptions anyone has been making about what training might be acceptable in UNPC for climbing or rappelling mean nothing unless directly confirmed by UNPC. So unless you have your own insurance or are sure that e.g. the LDS Church will have your back if the BSA doesn't, be very, very careful.

The only good thing about Debbie course is that she does a couple days of hands on anchor building and rescue work. Otherwise all the content is the same as the BSA Climb on safely stuff. I think it is super silly that the UNPC is no longer recognizing other organizations.

Go ahead and ask her about the canyoneering policy! haha

[kiwi_outdoors]

" the guidelines in Climb on Safely apply only to unit activities, not council activities, which they have different policies for"

is even more stupid than some of the things my bureaucracy does.

BTW - I used to be a Asst SM and a Climbing trip leader (top roping only), locally trained.

[owenfw]

" the guidelines in Climb on Safely apply only to unit activities, not council activities, which they have different policies for"

is even more stupid than some of the things my bureaucracy does.

BTW - I used to be a Asst SM and a Climbing trip leader (top roping only), locally trained.

Well, and there is the Balkanization aspect--instead of a consistent BSA climbing training standard, now (at least as interpreted by UNPC), no locally administered training travels, so any volunteer moving from one council to another is back at square one. And one council can't call on resources from another council, even if the guy lives across the street, if they need extra hands. I've never seen a nonprofit organization so intent on alienating volunteers as LDS BSA. This climbing thing is just the tip of that iceberg, small potatoes compared to the damage done by the "calling" system of recruiting adult scout leaders. Our local scout motto could be "Be untrained and unmotivated."