Playin' with a fiddlestick....

[Iceaxe]

So I spent some time playing with a fiddlestick this weekend.... and my previous opinion remains unchanged. The fiddlestick does have a use, and 99.99% of all canyoneers will never encounter such a situation or ever have need of a fiddlestick. The fiddlestick is exponentially more dangerous then the typical methods of toss-n-go and biner blocks. The item the fiddlestick is best at is impressing your friends with silly and dangerous rope tricks, while hoping they will be in awe of your skillzz....

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The ladezz were impressed with my ability to handle such a big stick....

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[Absolute Gravity]

LOL! :2thumbs:


The ladezz were impressed with my ability to handle such a big stick....

I bet! Surely a new experience for you. :lol8:

[Mountaineer]

Nice [edit] pic and pose there Shane. :cool2:


Another retrievable anchor thread!

Curious what you recommend as the best retrievable anchor then? Or, you are suggesting never to use ghosting techniques? I know there are many who do not recommend ghosting, hooks, etc.

What constitutes the 0.01% use?

I know some areas request that no webbing is left behind to be seen by casual hikers (i.e. Cassidy Arch). Is your opinion to leave webbing around the tree?

I've used both a fiddlestick type (PVC) a little, and the Omnisling (or just a webbing loop) some. For me personally, I'm not convinced which method I like best. However I am sensitive to others around me and how they use (and perceive) the outdoors (i.e. hiking only) which may be different than how I enjoy it (i.e. canyoneering).

I didn't bring up the advantages of rope pulls, as a fiddlestick can help reduce rope grooves and getting things stuck.

[Sombeech]

LOL! :2thumbs:



I bet! Surely a new experience for you. :lol8:

http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc468/emeraldwaves/GIFs/OhSnapBlackKid7478154.gif

[Iceaxe]

Curious what you recommend as the best retrievable anchor then?

All of the systems you mention use a toggle.... and any system with a toggle has a greatly reduced margin of safety and a greater chance of operator error.

For the 99.99% of the world that needs a retrievable anchor for the occasional rappel (Cassidy Arch, Lomatium, ect). I would suggest the one pictured below because it does not contain a toggle. It is by far the easiest and safest retrievable anchor I know of. This is a much safer technique as the anchor will not release with the rappel line in it.

http://www.bogley.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=17842&stc=1&d=1201139513

[Iceaxe]

Here is another retrievable anchor method that does not require a toggle. The first picture has a biner as a safety device. Second picture is for the last man down (LMAR).

http://www.bogley.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=17844&stc=1&d=1201197126


http://www.bogley.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=17845&stc=1&d=1201197099

[ratagonia]

Here is another retrievable anchor method that does not require a toggle. The first picture has a biner as a safety device. Second picture is for the last man down (LMAR).

http://www.bogley.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=17844&stc=1&d=1201197126


http://www.bogley.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=17845&stc=1&d=1201197099

What is it you think happens with this system?

Tom

[ratagonia]

So I spent some time playing with a fiddlestick this weekend.... and my previous opinion remains unchanged. The fiddlestick does have a use, and 99.99% of all canyoneers will never encounter such a situation or ever have need of a fiddlestick. The fiddlestick is exponentially more dangerous then the typical methods of toss-n-go and biner blocks. The item the fiddlestick is best at is impressing your friends with silly and dangerous rope tricks, while hoping they will be in awe of your skillzz....

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I am very happy to have your anti-endorsement for this product. Thanks Shane. :2thumbs:

Tom

[Iceaxe]

What is it you think happens with this system?

I already know what happens....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcZoXFST7hY


System 2 was posted for comment and to show another retrievable system that didn't use a toggle. The only time I have used system 2 was showing off for the ladezz.....

[ratagonia]

I already know what happens....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcZoXFST7hY


System 2 was posted for comment and to show another retrievable system that didn't use a toggle. The only time I have used system 2 was showing off for the ladezz.....


Yeah, try that with 60 feet of rope out, and I think you will see that it does not work.

(YMMV, closed course, professional bickerers at work)

Tom :moses:

[Mountaineer]

I already know what happens....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcZoXFST7hY


System 2 was posted for comment and to show another retrievable system that didn't use a toggle. The only time I have used system 2 was showing off for the ladezz.....

You could put a ring on the one end of webbing to prevent rope on webbing drag. Higher chance of getting caught possibly on the pull.

Also have seen the double ring method, where one is bigger than the other allowing a pull through.

I certainly prefer any method that requires 2x rope rather than 3x.

[qedcook]

Yeah, try that with 60 feet of rope out, and I think you will see that it does not work.

(YMMV, closed course, professional bickerers at work)

Tom :moses:

I've done it with 200 feet of rope in action at the first rappel of Shillelagh. What's next, Tom? Are you going to call Iceaxe an anti-Semite for not agreeing with you? The fiddlestick is a unnecessary product. Deal with it.

[SRG]

I've done it with 200 feet of rope in action at the first rappel of Shillelagh.

What was it like? Im interested in hearing more about this method.

I've never tried it, but it seems like once the webbing gets pulled around the anchor point, it would act as a pulley and for each X amount of feet you pulled down, your pull cord would only come up a fraction of that?

Also, I'd imagine that using a bigger anchor like a large boulder would make the pull very difficult, maybe impossible.


Are you going to call Iceaxe an anti-Semite for not agreeing with you?
Was that a MK reference? If so, have you read what he wrote, "anti-semetic" is the most accurate way to describe it for sure.


You could put a ring on the one end of webbing to prevent rope on webbing drag.

I like this idea Mountaineer, on longer pulls, without a ring the rope would likely cause significant damage to a sling/webbing.

[Mountaineer]

Yeah, try that with 60 feet of rope out, and I think you will see that it does not work.

(YMMV, closed course, professional bickerers at work)

Tom :moses:

Bickering aside, seems this method is risky: as the rope pulls it could get caught around the webbing and anchor point.

Other experience out there with this method?

Simple idea, if effective.

[Eric Holden]

Fiddlestick or no fiddlestick.... thanks!




The ladezz were impressed with my ability to handle such a big stick....

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[Brian in SLC]

Was that a MK reference? If so, have you read what he wrote, "anti-semetic" is the most accurate way to describe it for sure..

I don't think so. He's very anti Israel (the state of).

MK: "A couple of weeks ago, as I was watching the Israelis bomb and slaughter innocent people is Gaza on TV, I got so mad I wrote a rather rambling letter to the Editors of a number of newspapers, and to all of you. It wasn’t too well thought out, and I guess it’s not a good idea to mix politics with people you don’t know that well."

MK: "If anybody critizies Jews or Israel in any way, they are considered anti-Semitic."

The definition: "Antisemitism (also spelled anti-semitism or anti-Semitism) is prejudice, hatred of, or discrimination (http://www.bogley.com/wiki/Discrimination) against Jews (http://www.bogley.com/wiki/Jews) for reasons connected to their Jewish (http://www.bogley.com/wiki/Judaism) heritage."

I think MK used some unfortunate language in his letter to the editor, but, I asked him directly if he was antisemitic. He's very anti Isreal. I think there's a difference. Maybe those lines are blurred for some...and, maybe some of his thoughts and words related to his position on Isreal, the US support of Isreal, etc, muddy those lines up.

Anyhoo...

[Deathcricket]

I hereby nominate this as the best fiddlestick thread. All other fiddlestick threads are all null and voided. Until the first deaths start occurring, then those threads automatically null and void this thread.

Enjoy your supremacy while it lasts Iceaxe. :2thumbs:If you have any other pics of you playing with your monster shaft, they are appreciated as well.

[ratagonia]

Mr. K's letter to many editors are posted here, along with a revealing email of transmittal:

http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/0901kelsey/

If you cannot see Mr. K's anti-Semitism in his words, then may Yahweh help you out of your blindness.

Here's a pithy quote to help you out:



And speaking of Jews, this morning at 7:40am, CNBC had Henry Kissenger telling the American people how bad the Falistines were, and that it was all their fault for the fighting in Gaza (Never mind that it was the Jews/Zionist who invaded all of Falistine throughout the 1900's!, and who now control it all).
Immediately after that, they interviewed David Stern, the commissioner of the NBA. He's another Jew, who at times, wears that silly-looking hat in public. He's trying to conquer the world via Basketball.


And at Noon today, 1/5/2009, Gov. Jon Huntsman, who I used to admire until today, took the oath of office for the 2nd time. And as usual, with one hand on the bible. After that there were a number of other people sworn into office, all with one hand on a bible. But even before all the swearing took place, they had of all people, a F'ing Rabbi give the opening prayer. Never did see a Native American as part of the program, or in the crowd. So much for Liberty and JUSTICE FOR ALL.


Tonight I saw on TV, the ceremony for the county commissioners and Peter Coroon, mayor of Salt Lake County--no bibles there, and no, "So Help Me ---" at the end.


I tried to look up the percent of Utahn's who were Native Americans & Jews, but I guess the Census folk doesn't ask such questions. But I'll bet there's about 10 times more Native Americans in Utah than Jews.


If 1.6% of Americans are Jewish, and they sort of control America; and America sort of controls the World, then what religious group sort of controls the World (the group I'm talking about, I believe, number about 20 million on the planet).


Thanks for your time. MRK



:facepalm1: :facepalm1: :facepalm1:

[Eric Holden]

I hereby nominate this as the best fiddlestick thread.

Second :2thumbs:

[deagol]

I would say the Fiddlestick is way safer than posting revealing pics of your wife & kids on the internet, but that's just me.....

[ratagonia]

So I spent some time playing with a fiddlestick this weekend.... and my previous opinion remains unchanged. The fiddlestick does have a use, and 99.99% of all canyoneers will never encounter such a situation or ever have need of a fiddlestick. The fiddlestick is exponentially more dangerous then the typical methods of toss-n-go and biner blocks. The item the fiddlestick is best at is impressing your friends with silly and dangerous rope tricks, while hoping they will be in awe of your skillzz....

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The ladezz were impressed with my ability to handle such a big stick....



Shane Shane Shane Shane Shane

I know you are all excited about playing with my stick, but...

Dare I point out that ACTUALLY you are playing with Luke's "Smooth Operator". I have to admit Luke's stick is larger and more rigid than my stick...:cry1:

Tom :cool2:

[Iceaxe]

Dare I point out that ACTUALLY you are playing with Luke's "Smooth Operator".

Wrong O.... it's a custom Bad Moon Risin' model, or at least that is what I was told.

[Deathcricket]

I like how this thread is still rocking despite Tom's attempts at ******ry (to gay it up). Sorry censors! :2thumbs:

I'd predicting a 5 pager!

[Stray]

Maybe renaming the fiddlestick is the answer (it worked for the Maxi Pad). :naughty::bootyshake::roflol:Love the thread. :2thumbs:

[Iceaxe]

Maybe renaming the fiddlestick is the answer


Imlay Death Stick (tm)


Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[Bootboy]

Based on your pics above, you should market your own version called the"diddle stick"

Truth is, I have one that I made out of poly carbonate that I've used. I won't advocate it's usage because of its inherent risk, but I understand and accept the risks involved. And choose to use it. For those who are willing to accept the risks, and fully understand them, it can be a useful tool. I don't actually advocate or endorse climbing, canyoneering, caving, backcountry skiing, etc... for partially the same reason. I participate in the above activities but I feel that I know and accept the involved risks. I'm generally distrusting of others' judgement and common sense and don't believe that many people who engage in these activities (canyoneering seems to draw them) possess the adequate skills to do it safely barring dumb luck. Not an elitist attitude on my part, just a skeptical one.

[Scott P]

Why do I have the feeling that the next time I go canyoneering with the "in-crowd" I'm going to have to endure a bunch of "Hey, you wanna see my Fiddlestick?" jokes? :facepalm1:

[SRG]

I don't think so. He's very anti Israel (the state of).

Sorry in advance for derailing this thread. I know this isn't the place... but since the convo got started here it goes.

My thoughts on Israel is that their domestic policy is shameful, they subjugate almost half of their citizenry to an apratheid-like second class life based on religious lines.
Our unconditional support for Isralel makes us as a county look foolish when they give us a big middle finger by doings things like announcing new settlement development the day our vice president arrives on a visit.
More importantly, our support of Isreal and their inhumane and antithetical-to-American-ideals policies makes effective foreign policy and international relations in the middle east impossible, with good reason too.

Long story short I believe that Israel is a strategic liability and instead of giving them billions every year in foreign aid, we need to get on board with the rest of the civilized world and level sanctions and embargoes on them until they return to the 1967 borders.

That being said, Im well aware that a common strategy for shutting down conversation about Israel has been to label anti-Israeli discussion as anti-Semetic discussion, but I don't think that what's going on here... if anything it's the opposite. MK's letter to the paper was anti-Israel, his personal correspondence was anti-Jewish.... the only time he mentioned Israel in his personal correspondence was in the beginning when he referenced "the Israeli letter" that he had sent to the paper. The rest of his diatribe was against a religion and the people who practice it, not a sovereign nation.

Now, getting back to the topic, penis penis penis penis penis fiddlestick... carry on... :haha:

-Sam

[Slot Machine]

I certainly prefer any method that requires 2x rope rather than 3x.

Use webbing as the 3rd 'x'. An easy/safe way to ghost the drop at Cassidy Arch, plus you might need the webbing later anyway.

Or maybe a dyneema retrieval cord, for an ultra-lightweight solution. :cool2:

Yes, this has all been said before... Yes, I like obvious alternatives to the Fiddlestick.

[pikan]

"I won't advocate it's usage because of its inherent risk...
I don't actually advocate or endorse climbing, canyoneering, caving, backcountry skiing, etc..."
spoken like a lawyer :nono:CYOB????
psssssst *whispering* This is a climbing, canyoneering, caving, backcountry skiing, etc... forum everyone here already does this stuff :haha:
I agree with your skepticism of other's judgement. I believe it is important to test and practice ANY new tool, principal, technique, etc... yourself under safe conditions before busting it out in a potentially life-threatening situation. And I too have started investigating the fiddlestick, or Luke's "Smooth Operator" variation of it.

[ratagonia]

Use webbing as the 3rd 'x'. An easy/safe way to ghost the drop at Cassidy Arch, plus you might need the webbing later anyway.

Or maybe a dyneema retrieval cord, for an ultra-lightweight solution. :cool2:

Yes, this has all been said before... Yes, I like obvious alternatives to the Fiddlestick.

You carry 150' of webbing?

T

[Exergy]

:whistling: What's your daughter making the size gesture towards?




The ladezz were impressed with my ability to handle such a big stick....

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[Slot Machine]

You carry 150' of webbing?

Never. But one could, to ghost Cassidy specifically. A rope/webbing combo would obviously work too. Thinking back... that's probably how we did it.

[Byron]

Maybe I'm a bit old school, but when I started doing this stuff many years ago we would throw a rope around a tree, rock or log and be done with it. If we had to leave a sling, none of us lost any sleep over it.

I remember when I went through Anasazi Canyon for the first time. At the second rappel, we came upon a very old piton that was driven into a crack. I didn't cry or freak out...I thought it was kinda neat. Someone (actually, I know exactly who it was) had recently put two bolts and hangars close to the piton. We gleefully rapped from them, grateful that we didn't have to build another stinking deadman like at the first rap.

Speaking of deadmans, I'd much rather see the canyons in North Wash with bolts instead. I know for some that's "not cool", but I think the bolts would be a lot less "noticeable". I've always regarded deadmans as the absolute last resort.

I have no opinion on this fiddlestick thing. I suppose I'd have to see one in action before passing judgement...but I tend to agree with Shane a lot, and if he thinks it's a BS item, then I probably wont be rushing out to buy one.

I don't think I would manufacture or promote the thing. For cryin' out loud, people are getting jacked up because they can't rig up a basic rap point properly, let alone some semi complicated arrangement with a plastic spatula. I wouldn't want someone getting killed on account of my invention...operator error or not. Of course, ropes themselves are waived in this regard.

I say leave a sling and just live with yourself.