Thanks for The Help (Pine Creek Mini Rescue)

[canyonguru]

Myself and my two friends were planning on an easy day of pine creek and keyhole yesterday. I have done both the canyons 8 plus times but neither of my friends have done them. One had done a few canyons with me including The Maze here in las vegas. The other had only done one easy canyon a couple of years ago but none besides that.

We grabbed a ride from the seccond switch back to the parking lot, suited up and dropped in. There was a large group on the first rap with half there group down. They were very nice and asked us to go ahead and use there ropes to pass them.

I down climbed the normal spot into the water, the friend with more experience decided he felt like swimming so he lowered himself into the water right where the deep part of the pothole was.

The other guy tried to down climb where i did but had a bit of a fall. I saw the whole thing and didn't think much of it. It just looked like he did a belly flop into the water. What had appened was when he fell his feet were on one side of the wall and his face and arms were on the onther side. He was horizontal when he hit the water. His right arm hung up on the wall and pulled it out of socket.

When he stood up he said he could move his arm and he was in a lot of pain. We couldn't tell at the moment but it was completely dislocated. The group behind us (looked like scout troop) did a great job of helping us get our friend out of the pothole with out to much trouble. The tied off up above us and we ran the rope through my friends biner and back up to the guys on the ledge kinda like a pully system. I was under him pushing and the guys above were pulling. Worked pretty well, We got him back down to our truck via another bummed ride from a tourist and got him to the medical clinic behind ZAC in sprindale.

Everything turned out fine, I just wanted to thanks the guys behind us for a very job well done and let them know how much i apreciate their help. I guess you just never know when something simple like that first down climb can turn into a very big problem.

The doctor said it was a pretty major injury and was suprised the bone didn't break.

68084

[ratagonia]

Ooooooooooo oUCH!!!!

Glad it worked out, with many helping hands.

Tom

[Wasatch]

Glad to hear everything worked out ok. Shit happens. I know people on this forum and in the canyoneering community that would bitch that he should not have been out there, and that he can't downclimb simple stuff, and will go on and on and on for years and put them down for it, but in reality know jack shit about the person and if something else is going on.

[canyonguru]

yeah thanks for the back up. I have been doing this long enough that i wouldn't have taken him if i didn't think he wasn't able. it just shows that a simple slip or fall can result in a big injury.

[Slot Machine]

I know people on this forum and in the canyoneering community that would bitch that he should not have been out there, and that he can't downclimb simple stuff, and will go on and on and on for years and put them down for it, but in reality know jack shit about the person and if something else is going on.

Yeah! These potential shit-eatin'-grin wearin', potential shit-talkin', potential in the canyon shit-takin' Bogleyites are just lurking, locked-and-loaded, to verbally flog the shit out of anyone who slips and falls, like all of us have a hundred times. But the rest of us have just gotten lucky and gotten away with it. Shit man, I just know that shitty, unfair, unprovoked shit-talk is just gonna happen. :lol8: :fitz:

That's how this forum works? Shit! :haha:

For some reason this photo of a crotchety Clint Eastwood seems to pair nicely with this post. Like cheese and wine.

68085

[jman]

Woah easy there fellers..

No ones doing the trash-talking except for you guys... ;)

Canyonguru - surprising your friend didn't break a bone...but glad he'll be okay though. Thanks for sharing the details.

[Iceaxe]

It's a good day when everyone comes home alive.....

So... where are these mysterious thrash talkers?!?

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[Wasatch]

Woah easy there fellers..

No ones doing the trash-talking except for you guys... ;)

Canyonguru - surprising your friend didn't break a bone...but glad he'll be okay though. Thanks for sharing the details.

I speak the truth. There are people on this forum and in the canyoneering community that you will never do any canyons with because they will look down on you, because you do not have the skills to keep up with them. You can't do anything right in their eyes. Even if you do, they will not invite you or anyone that has not done the canyons they have done. They will post trip reports about canyons they have done, but will never tell you where they are or invite you to do them, don't even ask if you could come along. A few years ago, I remember people got pissed off big time about this. I say why even post trip reports about these canyons if you are not willing to share, but I guess they need to brag or whatever. They will not take new people out that want to get into the sport. I'm telling you, they will belittle you to their friends and anyone else that will listen to them.

[Wasatch]

Woah easy there fellers..

No ones doing the trash-talking except for you guys... ;)

Canyonguru - surprising your friend didn't break a bone...but glad he'll be okay though. Thanks for sharing the details.

I believe we have a mutual friend that knows exactly what I'm talking about. We discussed it many times in the past.

[Mountaineer]

Ouch. Very easy to do.

How quickly things can turn to a rescue or survival situation. Just rolling an ankle can do it.

Great team effort in getting out ok. Hope you all are there when I take my tumble next time.

Speedy recovery!

[2065toyota]

I speak the truth. There are people on this forum and in the canyoneering community that you will never do any canyons with because they will look down on you, because you do not have the skills to keep up with them. You can't do anything right in their eyes. Even if you do, they will not invite you or anyone that has not done the canyons they have done. They will post trip reports about canyons they have done, but will never tell you where they are or invite you to do them, don't even ask if you could come along. A few years ago, I remember people got pissed off big time about this. I say why even post trip reports about these canyons if you are not willing to share, but I guess they need to brag or whatever. They will not take new people out that want to get into the sport. I'm telling you, they will belittle you to their friends and anyone else that will listen to them.

I kinda feel exactly the opposite, but we can have opinions

[Iceaxe]

X2

Last time I checked Bogley fests were open to everyone of all skill levels. We had a great Moabfest a few month's ago and everyone who wanted to come was invited

If folks aren't inviting you on trips after the first go around perhaps you need to do a little soul searching and maybe an attitude adjustment and stop whining.

FWIW- skill level has very little to do with who I invite on personal trips. I normally invite people who have a positive attitude that I think are fun to hang out with.... someone who's company I enjoy. YMMV.

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[oldno7]

Good job on cleaning up on aisle pine cr.

Thanks for posting this mishap.

It can happen to anyone.

[Sombeech]

How quickly things can turn to a rescue or survival situation.


You're talking about this conversation, right? :haha:

http://images.wikia.com/cardfight/images/e/e7/That_Escalated_Quickly.jpg

[Mountaineer]

You're talking about this conversation, right? :haha:



Exactly, although alcohol isn't in my first aid kit.

[Slot Machine]

I speak the truth. There are people on this forum and in the canyoneering community that you will never do any canyons with because they will look down on you, because you do not have the skills to keep up with them.

So what? I don't even think about 'eyes looking down' on me.

Let's assume you do speak the truth. Why would you want to canyoneer with someone that doesn't want to canyoneer with you anyway?

Why not put together your own crew and then do whatever you like? There are plenty of talented/skilled people in the community...

[dlofting]

Just wondering if you reduced the dislocation or waited until you got to the clinic. There are some ways to do it if you have to.....might want to learn the techniques if you don`t know them already, particularly if you`ll be canyoneering with your friend again. The ligaments will tighten up a bit on their own, but will probably not be as stable as before the accident.

[ratagonia]

I know people on this forum and in the canyoneering community that would complain that he should not have been out there, and that he can't downclimb simple stuff, and will go on and on and on for years and put them down for it, but in reality know jack about the person and if something else is going on.

Like who?

I think I know more people in those categories than you do, John, and I cannot think of ONE person who is THAT crotchety.

:moses:

[ratagonia]

Just wondering if you reduced the dislocation or waited until you got to the clinic. There are some ways to do it if you have to.....might want to learn the techniques if you don`t know them already, particularly if you`ll be canyoneering with your friend again. The ligaments will tighten up a bit on their own, but will probably not be as stable as before the accident.

Reducing a dislocated shoulder is something that should ONLY be done by a trained person. Especially the first one. On THIS I will look down my nose at you!

Things can go very wrong with an inappropriate reduction. Better to secure it as best as possible against the body, especially with definitive care close by.

People that have dislocated their shoulder before are often trained on how to get it back in, with a little help.

Tom :moses:

[dlofting]

Agree on the training before attempting a dislocation reduction......sorry
, didn`t make that clear in my post.

[spinesnaper]

Gravity-always on the job.:nod:

Dislocated shoulders are best reduced by trained medical personal. A little midazolam and a touch of fentanyl does not hurt either.:nod:

Just because you saw Mel Gibson do it in Lethal Weapon does not mean that you can or should reduce your own shoulder.

Ken

[Sombeech]

I just had my dislocated thumb reset a few days ago and almost pee'd my pants

http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?69417-My-turn-to-dislocate-a-thumb

I looked the doctor in the eye and asked her how sure she was about being successful on the first try

[mzamp]

Ouch! Mishaps like this can happen to anyone and it looks like most agree with that.
I want to know more about the rescue part. Sounds like you did a simple 2-1 pulley system? Was this by choice (was that all that was needed) or was nobody familiar with say a 3-1 or a more complex system?

[canyonguru]

We were going to use a shunt and pull him up bit by bit but being that the injured would have needed to slide the shunt that was quickly abandoned. Being that i was down low and we had plenty of bodies we just did a 2-1 which was plenty. If we had only a few guys we probably would have done a 3 or 4 to 1 if we needed too. This was my first experience doing any type of rescue and it was a great learning experience. One thing we should have done was tie up his arm to his body but being that we needed to slide him on his belly over that little rock noll it worked out that we didn't.

He is a good guy but not in the best of shape and was going into shock. on the climb out to the road he was loosing strength in his legs, getting light headed and a little sick feeling. All in all it turned out well and he is doing just fine. The Doctor at the zion clinic was awesome and had a very good attutude twards the situation. He we joking with us and make light of the situation trying help my friend to cope with the injury. He also was trying to get him to calm down becuase he would not have been able to get his arm back it while he was tense. Thanks again for all your comments

The purpose of the post was to share this experience so that we can all learn from it. I do still consider myself to be a novice in this sport even though i have been doing it for 15 years. I don't hold a candle to most of you on here with experience and skill, but i know that a cool head and a little bit of knowledge can go a long way. I hope everyone else out there will be safe this season.

[JTMiller]

Dislocated shoulders are best reduced by trained medical personal. A little midazolam and a touch of fentanyl does not hurt either.:nod:


Ken

In the Red Cross Wilderness First Aid course i attended recently they taught us to use the "Stimson technique" to reduce a dislocated shoulder. It seems pretty straightforward. Is this a good technique or is it still best to get them to a medical professional? I suppose a major consideration is the time and distance to get there.

[spinesnaper]

In the Red Cross Wilderness First Aid course i attended recently they taught us to use the "Stimson technique" to reduce a dislocated shoulder. It seems pretty straightforward. Is this a good technique or is it still best to get them to a medical professional? I suppose a major consideration is the time and distance to get there.

Unless you are specifically trained, i.e. have actually reduced a dislocated shoulder under the direct supervision of a more experienced physician, I would not recommend this maneuver in the field. The Milch method is probably easier to accomplish in the field and has a higher rate of success. The decision to make a reduction in the field will depend on a number of factors including the ability of the individual to be relaxed for the reduction. Pain may prevent your patient from cooperating. The need to self-rescue will likely play a role. Faced with this decision in the field, where shoulder impairment will impact on the ability to self or group rescue (i.e. you and your party are 5 hours into Imlay), I would activate my personal locator beacon, shelter in place, and wait for rescue for my injured partner. The personal locator beacon is the most important component of my first aid kit.

Ken

[dlofting]

The personal locator beacon is the most important component of my first aid kit.


Does your PLB work in a slot canyon ?

[spinesnaper]

My understanding is that a 5 Watt personal locator beacon will ping the NOAA satellite out of a canyon. I believe some of those tests were done in Zion. The PLB would not be able to establish a GPS fix however. I think it would be smart to find the most open area to activate the beacon to increase the likelihood that you can get a GPS fix. This increases the accuracy of the signal from about a mile to 9 meters.

[dlofting]

My understanding is that a 5 Watt personal locator beacon will ping the NOAA satellite out of a canyon. I believe some of those tests were done in Zion. The PLB would not be able to establish a GPS fix however. I think it would be smart to find the most open area to activate the beacon to increase the likelihood that you can get a GPS fix. This increases the accuracy of the signal from about a mile to 9 meters.

Thanks for the info....I always bring my PLB with me when I come to Utah, but was never sure if it would work in a slot canyon.

[Iceaxe]

Search through the Bogley archives and you will find a couple stories where PLB's didn't work in slot canyons.... and by didn't work I mean NO signal of any type was ever received.

YMMV

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[spinesnaper]

I looked up the details. Here they are with warts and all (http://www.itrsonline.org/PapersFolder/2008/Killian2008_ITRSPaper.pdf):
[INDENT][SIZE=3]
"Summary of Results

[FONT=FrutigerLTStd]The results of these tests can be looked at in several ways. From the standpoint of the visitor to Zion NP, theresults could appear to be discouraging in that the PLB failed to report precise position data to the satellites inmany of the test locations. When individuals put their trust in a piece of equipment to notify rescue personnelof their predicament, they would naturally hope that the notification would be followed quickly by a rescue.In the case of Zion