No Dogs Allowed!

[ahansen60]

Just got back from a hike/backpack up to the Pfeifferhorn. Loaded up all my gear and my dogs in my truck like I always do, and headed from Ogden down to the trailhead. As soon as I got there I was shocked to find out that all of Salt Lake County watershed is off limits to dogs. How long has this been the case? Am I the only one that thinks this is absolutely stupid and ridiculous? What harm is a dog going to do to the watershed? Are we going to ban all deer, moose and elk from the mountains as well because the horrible feces and urine they leave in our mountains?

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[DOSS]

Been that way since at least 94 when I started hiking that area... And domestic dog poop has some potential nasties that the wild animals poop does not have due to their living in close proximity to other animals and humans.


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[Scott P]

How long has this been the case?

At least 40 years now, probably a lot longer. Just a guess, but it probably correlates with the grazing bans dating back in the 1930's.


What harm is a dog going to do to the watershed? Are we going to ban all deer, moose and elk from the mountains as well because the horrible feces and urine they leave in our mountains?

Since wild animals don't live with humans nor carry the same bacteria, etc. they are much likely to spread diseases affecting humans.

[accadacca]

The laws are lame, but I guess people can't clean up after their dogs?

[Scott P]

(double post)

[Scott P]

I guess people can't clean up after their dogs?

True. Mill Creek does get pretty disgusting, especially in the winter/early spring.

Anyway, you can still climb the Pfeifferhorn with a dog, just use another route. There are several routes up the Pfeifferhorn that don't involve Little Cottonwood Canyon.

Whatever the route though, I don't know if the Pfeifferhorn is a dog friendly hike, at least for most dogs. It has scrambling regardless of the route.

[Painted Horse]

Herbivores have a totally different manure make up than dogs and people. That's why you see farmers spreading manure in fields or home owners into their gardens to help plants grow. But we avoid using dog or human waste in anything we are going to eat. Even the BioMass we get from the sewer plant that has been composted and treated is used for ornamental plantings and not food gardens. You just don't have the pathogens in horse/cow manure than you do in waste from carnivores.

[ahansen60]

I'm sorry, but I still have a hard time seeing dog waste as a legitimate concern to the watershed. If you take the total area of the watershed that is trail accessible I would think it would make up maybe 1% of the total landmass of the watershed. I have a hard time seeing that one percent being significant enough to be a threat to the watershed. If so, why wouldn't the rest of Utah have water issues when they are dog friendly in the mountains? Ogden, where I am from, is dog friendly in the surrounding mountains and a few years back I recall hearing that North Ogden was voted best tasting drinking water in the state of Utah.

[Scott P]

If so, why wouldn't the rest of Utah have water issues when they are dog friendly in the mountains?

The rest of Utah isn't as heavily populated as the Salt Lake Valley (although Odgen and Provo areas are getting up there). Big and Little Cottonwoods Canyons/Salt Lake County aren't the only places in Utah with watershed restrictions either. Also, it's not only dogs, but swimming or wading in water is also illegal in those canyons.

Also, total landmass isn't the issue, but what gets in the water.

Many watersheds in neighboring states actually ban not only dogs, but people too.

As you point out though, most of the state is open to dogs. Luckily there are plenty of places to go if you have your dog. As mentioned, you can even still climb the Pfeifferhorn from other directions with one.

Personally I have no issue with dogs at all as long as they aren't aggressive and owners clean up after them, but I'm willing to bet that the law about dogs in Big and Little Cottonwood isn't going to go away anytime soon. It's been that way for decades and is enforced fairly strictly.

PS, in this case, what ever happened to the trip? Did you go somewhere else, just go home, or ...?

[DOSS]

I'm sorry, but I still have a hard time seeing dog waste as a legitimate concern to the watershed. If you take the total area of the watershed that is trail accessible I would think it would make up maybe 1% of the total landmass of the watershed. I have a hard time seeing that one percent being significant enough to be a threat to the watershed. If so, why wouldn't the rest of Utah have water issues when they are dog friendly in the mountains? Ogden, where I am from, is dog friendly in the surrounding mountains and a few years back I recall hearing that North Ogden was voted best tasting drinking water in the state of Utah.

As North Ogden gets its drinking water from wells and springs IE groundwater sources your argument about Ogdens dog friendly mountains does not hold water as the area in question uses surface water not groundwater.

[ahansen60]

I can understand your arguments, but I still don't think it is significant enough of a threat to warrant restricting dogs from the mountains. Wading and swimming I can understand somewhat, due to the fact that it is direct contamination of the water and not just contamination of the land the water runs over. But I would be willing to bet if you let dogs run free all over the mountains that we would not see any significant increase in drinking water contamination. Even on the off chance that we did see an increase I would be more than willing to pay an increase in taxes for better water filtration and monitoring. It's worth it to me. Dogs were not meant to be cooped up in a house or yard. They need that time to go run free and enjoy the trails just as much as I need it from time to time. And before someone says it, no, just taking your dog to a park does not suffice.

[Sombeech]

Isn't a great deal of Ogden's drinking water supplied from Pineview reservoir?

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[ahansen60]

Yes. There is a water treatment facility just below the dam.

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[DOSS]

Isn't a great deal of Ogden's drinking water supplied from Pineview reservoir?

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We are talking about North Ogden as the OP stated.. Not ogden proper http://northogd.ipower.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/2010-water-quality-report-3.pdf


Also what is the drainage area for Pineview Res.. mostly NOT the mountainous area around Ogden but further back...

In the end just because the people of Ogden want to drink water that is potentially contaminated with dog feces doesn't mean that the People of salt Lake and the surrounding area want to enjoy the same..

[ahansen60]

You should come up to Ogden some time and try some of our feces water. You might like it. :)

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[kiwi_outdoors]

Humans animals sometimes lead to unintended consequences. Domestic sheep are responsible for a disease that is wiping out native Bighorns, and there is no fix.

[Sombeech]

People and animals are pooping, peeing and puking in pineview everyday, but they have this new technology called water treatment.

Ask the astronauts what they think of drinking recycled liquids.

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[Brian in SLC]

I can understand your arguments, but I still don't think it is significant enough of a threat to warrant restricting dogs from the mountains....Even on the off chance that we did see an increase I would be more than willing to pay an increase in taxes for better water filtration and monitoring. It's worth it to me.

I don't think most of us would care to have our taxes increase...

Being a local to the canyons here in SLC, I'll have to admit I like that at least BCC and LCC have dog restrictions. I like dogs, grew up with them, but, most owners don't train their dogs to behave reasonably around people.

I hike in the local canyons all the time (multiple times a week). Mill Creek included. So, I get dog/people interactions all the time. Anyhoo...

Had a friend who worked for EBMUD as a water guy. He could kinda explain how hard it was to treat contaminated water. We chatted a fair bit about SLC's watershed policy. Was interesting.

Anyhoo...the watershed here in the Wasatch supplies a fairly large population. Google "Salt Lake watershed dogs" and see how much info is available.

http://www.slcgov.com/sites/default/files/documents/open-space/2012/PHNP_letter_12_14_2010.pdf

http://cf9.slco.org/watershed/pdfWLibr/slcWshedMgmtProgHistory19471997.pdf

I think that since its become common for folks to pick up their dogs poo...that, there's been a noticable difference in places like Mill Creek and Tanner's Park.



SLC tap water is the best...ha ha:

By Mike Celizic TODAY contributor

updated 7/20/2007 11:39:22 AM ET 2007-07-20T15:39:22

Its namesake lake may be saltier than the ocean, but, according to two wine-tasting experts, Salt Lake City

[Bootboy]

I'm sorry, but I still have a hard time seeing dog waste as a legitimate concern to the watershed. If you take the total area of the watershed that is trail accessible I would think it would make up maybe 1% of the total landmass of the watershed. I have a hard time seeing that one percent being significant enough to be a threat to the watershed. If so, why wouldn't the rest of Utah have water issues when they are dog friendly in the mountains? Ogden, where I am from, is dog friendly in the surrounding mountains and a few years back I recall hearing that North Ogden was voted best tasting drinking water in the state of Utah.

But just a little poop in the pudding makes the whole pudding poopy.

[ahansen60]

I love poopy pudding. Don't you? ;)

If you love the taste of Salt Lake County's water then you must be ok with not just a little poop, but a lot of poop, with all the deer, elk, moose and various other critters up there. I'm perfectly ok with it. Along with dogs, because I don't buy the argument that dog feces is worse than other animals.

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[brettyb]

The ban on dogs in the Cottonwoods is absolutely not stupid and ridiculous. I think it's fantastic that there are some places to hike without dumbass dogs hassling me and scaring my kids.

[qedcook]

I don't buy the argument that dog feces is worse than other animals.

Any scientific evidence to back up your belief?

[Deathcricket]

Interesting question. It seems to me the water has to be treated regardless? Which would likely entail removing the solids, then killing the bacteria. so whether there is 23 million bacteria or 100 million bacteria is moot. Not familiar with the process though :crazy:

They did the same thing down here in kanarraville canyon. But I still see tons of dogs when I cruz up there, fight the power!

[Brian in SLC]

Interesting question. It seems to me the water has to be treated regardless? Which would likely entail removing the solids, then killing the bacteria. so whether there is 23 million bacteria or 100 million bacteria is moot.

That's kind of an interesting way to look at it. But, in your example, the amount of nasty stuff isn't moot. Its hugely important.

I've had municipal water treatment explained to me, but, I'm really fairly ignorant about it. What I remember, is, both Cryptosporidium parvum and Gairdia is tough to kill in water treatment. You don't have to do much googling to find fairly solid info on studies showing dog poop is full of that stuff, compared to deer, etc.

E. Coli and fecal coliform are fun too. Dog feces has it in much higher concentrations than wildlife.

I think its kinda like this: folks don't get sick from drinking water with a couple of nasties in it. They get sick when the concentration of nasty stuff is high enough. So, yeah, wildlife carry nasties. Dogs' do do does too.

Water treatment for a city doesn't really kill everything. It reduces the baddies to "acceptable levels". And, how and what does that is based on what they think the quality of the water coming in contains.

Would you drink water out of a mountain stream, or, from a sewage pipe? How 'bout if each were treated as if both were mountain stream water?

Water is tested to beat the band in the U.S. Do they find bad stuff? Sure, all the time. But, the levels are "acceptable". And you don't get sick when the concentrations of bad stuff is low. When its high? Sure, that's trouble.

http://www.waterquality.utah.gov/Monitoring/index.htm

[Bootboy]

The ban on dogs in the Cottonwoods is absolutely not stupid and ridiculous. I think it's fantastic that there are some places to hike without dumbass dogs hassling me and scaring my kids.

Agreed. Especially being so close to a large metropolitan area. You just can't count on people having enough self control to not bring their stupid dog up there. With a big enough population base, you are bound to get a few stupits with no self control or consideration whatsoever for others. There are. I'm sure, people with well mannered dogs that could recreate with them responsibly up there, to no other's detriment, but all it takes is a few idiots with I'll-raised dogs to screw it up for everyone else. I hate humans...

[ahansen60]

So why not ban people from the mountains as well? If I follow your arguments then there must be just as much bacteria and nasties in human feces as in dogs. Don't tell me it's because people can dispose of their waste properly because we can also do that with our dog's waste. Why not just have a law requiring all pet waste to be packed out? I would happily comply. The reason people are not banned as well as dogs is because we know the few contaminants our waste contributes to the watershed is not worth depriving ourselves of the beauty and enjoyment of the mountains. Well that is how I feel about dogs too. They should not be deprived either. Nor should people be deprived of the enjoyment they get bringing their dogs up there. It all comes down to one question. "Is the reward worth the cost?" In my opinion, yes.

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[Deathcricket]

That's kind of an interesting way to look at it. But, in your example, the amount of nasty stuff isn't moot. Its hugely important.

I've had municipal water treatment explained to me, but, I'm really fairly ignorant about it. What I remember, is, both Cryptosporidium parvum and Gairdia is tough to kill in water treatment. You don't have to do much googling to find fairly solid info on studies showing dog poop is full of that stuff, compared to deer, etc.

E. Coli and fecal coliform are fun too. Dog feces has it in much higher concentrations than wildlife.

I think its kinda like this: folks don't get sick from drinking water with a couple of nasties in it. They get sick when the concentration of nasty stuff is high enough. So, yeah, wildlife carry nasties. Dogs' do do does too.

Water treatment for a city doesn't really kill everything. It reduces the baddies to "acceptable levels". And, how and what does that is based on what they think the quality of the water coming in contains.

Would you drink water out of a mountain stream, or, from a sewage pipe? How 'bout if each were treated as if both were mountain stream water?

Water is tested to beat the band in the U.S. Do they find bad stuff? Sure, all the time. But, the levels are "acceptable". And you don't get sick when the concentrations of bad stuff is low. When its high? Sure, that's trouble.

http://www.waterquality.utah.gov/Monitoring/index.htm

Yeah I guess what I was thinking is they boil the water or some UV light system. Which seems like it would kill most bacteria regardless of concentration since the "environment" is no longer bacteria friendly. But what they most likely do is add some nasty chemicals, like chlorine or iodine, which they have to keep to a lower level because also harmful to humans, which thereby lowers it's effectiveness, kinda like npt putting enough chlorine in your pool. Makes sense I guess.

Good post!

[QuillGordon]

Pure BS, literally. Cabin owner's & residence in both cyn's do not have to obey with the watershed rules & their hounds roam freely on their land in both of these cyn's. The damage is done... Most the water that is consumed here in the the Salt Lake Valley comes from the Provo River drainage delivered by Jordan Valley Conservancy District. Drive along the Provo River and notice the pasture's littered with cow's, horses and the likes. Fish the Provo and notice the hounds that are walked daily along the river. Also, people on the Provo drainage are free to wade or float the river without waders. Enter Big or Little Cottonwood Creek without waders and you can be cited. The difference is a little treatment cost's. Me personally I feel it is something dreamn't up by some local asswipe enviro trying to lock up the land for themselves & as a Sandy resident I'm quite fed up with the anti-hound attitude found here in the Salt Lake Valley...

[QuillGordon]

Agreed. Especially being so close to a large metropolitan area. You just can't count on people having enough self control to not bring their stupid dog up there. With a big enough population base, you are bound to get a few stupits with no self control or consideration whatsoever for others. There are. I'm sure, people with well mannered dogs that could recreate with them responsibly up there, to no other's detriment, but all it takes is a few idiots with I'll-raised dogs to screw it up for everyone else. I hate humans...

How about the bonehead cyclist's who think's they need to ride two abreast along a narrow cyn road or the mtn biker flying downhill with little disregard for hiker's safety. The hiker who takes no precaution for safety themselves and find's that their stranded on a cliff relying on tax payer's rescue. A skier out abounds taken out by a avalanche also relying on a tax payers rescue. The list goes on & on for idiot's as it is human nature. Their are idiot's in every venue so with your attitude they should all be banned if you don't agree. That kind of thinking will find yourself banned