Belaying Young Kids As They Rappel

[Chanobelli]

once again looking for all your expert advice.


I am wanting to take my nephews rappelling and teach them to Rappel on their own but wondering what your opinions are on whats the best way to let them have full control but still belaying them from the top as a back up.


Thanks,

[ratagonia]

once again looking for all your expert advice.


I am wanting to take my nephews rappelling and teach them to Rappel on their own but wondering what your opinions are on whats the best way to let them have full control but still belaying them from the top as a back up.


Thanks,


???

What is the best way to belay them from the top?

Belay them from the top.

You've already specified what it is you plan to do, so what is your question?

Personally, I think it is better for them if a second adult belays from the bottom, rather than using a separate-rope top belay. Some kids are greatly aided by doing a tandem rappel first, so they get the idea, then progressing to (perhaps) being lowered, then rappelling on their own (with a bottom belay).

I guess the other way to look at the question is to think you are looking at directions on how to belay from the top. To me, elitist that I am, if you don't know how to do that, you should not be taking kids rappelling. :facepalm1:

Tom :moses:

[Spartacus]

I use a top belay for kids when the rappel is big or newbie kids. I just leave some slack and constantly feed belay rope as they decend.

I tie (1) a fig-8 on a bight on the main rope and clip a biner to it, (2) tie Munter hitch with belay rope onto biner, (3) tie belay rope directly onto kids belay loop, (4) hook main rope onto rappel device. (5) keep a little slack on the line as they decend.

Photo is my 10 year old on the big rappel on Boltergeist.67601

[Chanobelli]

I use a top belay for kids when the rappel is big or newbie kids. I just leave some slack and constantly feed belay rope as they decend.

I tie (1) a fig-8 on a bight on the main rope and clip a biner to it, (2) tie Munter hitch with belay rope onto biner, (3) tie belay rope directly onto kids belay loop, (4) hook main rope onto rappel device. (5) keep a little slack on the line as they decend.

Photo is my 10 year old on the big rappel on Boltergeist.67601

I guess I should have been more clear i would prefer to belay them from the top but as always am open to what others have done. I plan on doing this in a warehouse so its hopefully less overwhelming for them.

[Iceaxe]

My kids learned by first being lowered. Next they moved to a top belay and finally to a bottom belay. YMMV


Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[Absolute Gravity]

When I was teaching my son to rappel I rigged two ropes a few feet apart, one for each of us, and then rapped down next to him while he was also being belayed from the bottom. Worked out great as I was able to see exactly what he was doing and offer encouragement or advice as we went down.

67603

[Chanobelli]

???

What is the best way to belay them from the top?

Belay them from the top.

You've already specified what it is you plan to do, so what is your question?

Personally, I think it is better for them if a second adult belays from the bottom, rather than using a separate-rope top belay. Some kids are greatly aided by doing a tandem rappel first, so they get the idea, then progressing to (perhaps) being lowered, then rappelling on their own (with a bottom belay).

I guess the other way to look at the question is to think you are looking at directions on how to belay from the top. To me, elitist that I am, if you don't know how to do that, you should not be taking kids rappelling. :facepalm1:

Tom :moses:


Rather then using a second rope wouldn't it be easier to use the Stone Knot to isolate each side? obviously I've never tried it just wondering if there is a reason it wouldnt work or be safe?

[Brian in SLC]

Rather then using a second rope wouldn't it be easier to use the Stone Knot to isolate each side? obviously I've never tried it just wondering if there is a reason it wouldnt work or be safe?

I guess I'd think having two separate ropes would be prudent. The kid's primary rappel line could be rigged with a contengency. Belay line would be separate, and, deployable if one needed to rappel down.

A tandem rappel would be cool. Rappel side by each. You could clip a tether into them in case they lost control.

I've always belayed from the top for absolute beginners. Nice to be able to talk them off the anchor and starting with good body and hand position.

Lowering first is a great idear. Get that body position dialed, as well as being comfy on a rope in a vertical environment.

[Sandstone Addiction]

Kids are all different. My 8 year old (at the time), on his first rap ever, put the rope in his ATC and descended by himself like he'd been doing it for years. Not the same with my other 2 boys...they were not at all comfortable with even being lowered despite reassurance and coaxing and we resorted to tandem rappelling (1 long (on adult) and 1 short (on kid) sling attached to same rappel devise), worked very well.

After a few tandem raps, my oldest became comfortable with rappelling by himself with the ATC set up with too much friction. Wasn't long until he trusted his equipment and abilities and now does fine. My youngest, after a few tandem raps, is very comfortable being lowered and enjoys it. Won't be long until he is rapping by himself.

Another technique that has worked very well for us when they start to rap on their own is to extend the rappel devise out 12 inches or so with a sling girth hitched to the belay loop. Awkward starts may require you to shorten the length though. This method has, so far, kept little fingers out of the ATC and they can more easily use both hands on the brake line if they want to.

[Miner bill]

Started with my kid last December. He was just turned 6. We did the tandem rope, clipped together and I controlled the tail of his rope. He backed off and slid down like he had done it forever.

67614

After a few trips I would leave him stopped partway down, then finish my rappel and belay him from the bottom. Our starting point was about 35' high and not vertical with an easy back off.

67615

[Chanobelli]

I've seen this done before by a guiding service and was curious as to what all of you thought about using this idea for kids. hopefully there is enough info in the picture to make sense.
67680

[Slot Machine]

Lowering someone using a fireman belay is easy, and it's a method that every student should learn to trust.

The munter hitch setup is not necessary.

____

Edit: if you really want to do a top belay, that is a good way. (sorry, just read the rest of the thread)

[SRG]

Another technique that has worked very well for us when they start to rap on their own is to extend the rappel devise out 12 inches or so with a sling girth hitched to the belay loop. Awkward starts may require you to shorten the length though. This method has, so far, kept little fingers out of the ATC and they can more easily use both hands on the brake line if they want to.

I also like this method. The extended rap device helps in the case of a slip while on rappel too. If a beginner/child/anyone slips and sticks out their brake hand to stop from hitting the wall, with the extended device it can still be in brake mode and can be easier to maintain control of the rappel.
If your rap device is on your harness and you stick your brake hand out in front of you to stop a slip, you're falling.
I like this setup on slippery, low-angle rappels.

[taatmk]

When they were really young, I tied them in to the rope and just lowered them. Later on, we moved to the bottom belay. Without any extra rope attached, as in a top belay, I feel that the fireman belay gives them the sense of control and doing it on their own, with the knowledge that they will be stopped from below if needed.

[ratagonia]

Lowering someone using a fireman belay is easy, and it's a method that every student should learn to trust.



Huh. My experience has been quite different. Lowering someone from a fireman's belay without their help is not pretty. It tends to happen in 5 foot drops. I cannot imagine a worse way to treat a scared kid.

Tom

[ratagonia]

I've seen this done before by a guiding service and was curious as to what all of you thought about using this idea for kids. hopefully there is enough info in the picture to make sense.


Yes, this is pretty much the standard way of giving a top belay.

As you show, it is a good idea to physically separate the belay from the rappel line, the belay anchor from the rappel anchor - AND the belay clip-in point from the rappel device clip in point.

HOWEVER - you show the rope tied in to the belay loop, and this is WRONG. You can clip the belay rope to the belay loop with a carabiner; or you can tie the rope into the harness through the tie-in points. But you should NEVER TIE the rope to the belay loop. :nono:

Tom

[Slot Machine]

Huh. My experience has been quite different. Lowering someone from a fireman's belay without their help is not pretty. It tends to happen in 5 foot drops. I cannot imagine a worse way to treat a scared kid.

Tom

Then why recommend bottom belay in post #2? :hmm2:

[Brian in SLC]

Then why recommend bottom belay in post #2? :hmm2: Because its a belay, not lowering. Its a backup in case the person rappelling loses control of their rappel.

[Brian in SLC]

I've seen this done before by a guiding service and was curious as to what all of you thought about using this idea for kids. hopefully there is enough info in the picture to make sense. That set up looks "ok"...but, I'm with Tom in that the rope should be tied into the proper place on the harness, and, not the belay loop. I'd also rig the munter hitch side with a sling shot belay instead since you have to actively feed the rope anyhow. Much less twisting, and, easier for the belay to control rather than on the anchor with a munter.

[ratagonia]

Then why recommend bottom belay in post #2? :hmm2:

When someone takes advantage of the bottom belay, we have the expectation that they will regain control, and proceed down again under their own control. We do not expect to lower them.

Tom

[ratagonia]

That set up looks "ok"...but, I'm with Tom in that the rope should be tied into the proper place on the harness, and, not the belay loop. I'd also rig the munter hitch side with a sling shot belay instead since you have to actively feed the rope anyhow. Much less twisting, and, easier for the belay to control rather than on the anchor with a munter.

Check! Sling shot belay would be much better, easier, smoother.

If lowering, I'd go sling shot on a kid (<100 lbs) but still go with the munter on an adult (>100 lbs).

Tom

[Sandstone Addiction]

Sling shot belay would be much better, easier, smoother.

Would you please explain this sling shot belay as I have kids in that range?

Also, you and Brian only mention using a Munter...any rappel devise would work for top belay, correct?

[Brian in SLC]

Would you please explain this sling shot belay as I have kids in that range?
Also, you and Brian only mention using a Munter...any rappel devise would work for top belay, correct?

Well...a sling shot belay is where you belay from your harness, the rope goes up to the anchor, and, sling shots back down to your partner. Basically just a redirect through a biner at the anchor. That way, the force pulls you towards the anchor. If you belay off the anchor, and, you're below it, can be a bit harder to manage. You gain a bit of friction off the biner at the anchor too.

I'd use nearly any belay device instead of a munter hitch. No need to twist the rope. Personally use the BD ATC or the Petzl Reverso 3.

If I knew the person on belay was fairly heavy and I might have to lower them, then, I'd probably add a carabiner to the belay device for a bit more friction. I'd kinda judge that based on how I'd rappel the rope single. Fat rope? I'd wouldn't add friction if the person weighed as much or less than me. Skinny rope? If I felt like I'd need additional friction to rappel, then, I'd add some to the system if the person was any where near my weight.

Also, I find it a bunch easier to escape a belay with a sling shot type system. Easy to lock off my partner then rig whatever I'd need. Might also facilitate a pick off quickly from that situation too...rather than having to tie off a munter at the anchor then rap whatever.

As a climber, I sling shot belay on multi pitch routes off the anchor, or, just straight off my harness if I think the anchor might be dubious... Easy to swap leads quickly, as, my partner is on belay and clipped into the first piece off the belay if I managed to rig it that way.

[ratagonia]

Also, you and Brian only mention using a Munter...any rappel devise would work for top belay, correct?

If belaying directly off the anchor, then a Munter works pretty well.

If sling-shotting, then you will want a belay device.

Now, many people probably think that a rappel device and a belay device are the same thing. They are not. The Pirana in particular is an especially poor belay device. It is slow and awkward to run the rope through, so if someone is rappelling, it could be hard to keep up, if they are moving at any speed other than 'glacial'.

Tom