Zion permit availability screen

[bjp]

I recently had a friend wait at the Zion backcountry desk for a really long time only to find out that there weren't any walk-in permits available for any interesting canyons. That seems pretty ridiculous to me, and would be easily solved by a screen that displayed permit availability located at the backcountry desk. I would love to just do this myself because it's so easy. My pitch would be:

I've observed a problem where people waiting in the backcountry desk line can't tell whether it's worth waiting because the canyon(s) they want aren't even available. I'd like to solve this problem by giving you this device and a monitor for free -- it will display how many permits are available for each canyon (like the image below), updated every few minutes automatically with no intervention. It consumes only 5W with the monitor off, so the total annual electricity cost should be well under $10. The only operation it requires is for a ranger to turn the monitor on and off according to when it's needed. The only things I'd need in order to install it for you would be a power outlet and and ethernet jack (or someone to type in the wifi password, if one exists).

67034

Does anyone have any knowledge or experience about who at Zion I should talk to about this and whether they might be receptive?

[Scott P]

Couldn't you just look online the day before or the morning of your trip? I guess if you're camping you may not have internet access.

PS, although possible, it seems somewhat unlikely, but possible that there wouldn't be any permits for any interesting canyons. Some of the best canyons aren't on the advanced permit system. Or so I've heard.

[Iceaxe]

Zion has pretty much eliminated the walk in permit (at the request of canyoneers). Basically half the permits are available (some require a lottery selection) on-line 3 months in advanced and the remaining half of the permits are released 3 days in advance in the "last chance lottery". With the current system expecting good permits to still be available as a walk-in is unreasonable.

Anyone standing in the permit line for a "good" canyon during peak canyoneering season is playing under the old rules and is wasting their time.

And you can always check on-line to see which canyons have permits available.
https://zionpermits.nps.gov/wilderness.cfm?TripTypeID=3

[bjp]

I guess if you're camping you may not have internet access.

Yep, or it may be difficult to access the desktop-oriented web page from some mobile devices, or it may be tedious to load 16 different pages to collect the useful information, or I may be 10 minutes into a 45 minute wait when someone reserves the permits I had checked were available before driving in.


PS, although possible, it seems somewhat unlikely, but possible that there wouldn't be any permits for any interesting canyons.

Seems like this happens the most often when it affects the most people (holiday weekends, for instance). I'm sure the number of days on which it happens is pretty low, but those happen to be the days the most people are most interested in.


Some of the best canyons aren't on the advanced permit system. Or so I've heard.

Hmm, maybe there are some secret Zion canyons? The only 3-star Zion canyons Tom lists that require permits but aren't listed online are Kolob, Icebox, and Russell (and I doubt Russell would be 3 stars without the Subway exit...?).

[Scott P]

The only 3-star Zion canyons Tom lists that require permits but aren't listed online are Kolob, Icebox, and Russell (and I doubt Russell would be 3 stars without the Subway exit...?).

Icebox is a good one, though the approach is fairly hot during the height of summer. Shane has some good ones listed on his site that aren't listed online and yes there are more. Keyhole usually doesn't fill up either, but it's short.

Shane is right though. If you are looking into the popular canyons, expecting a walk in during peak season isn't that reasonable. Book ahead or apply for the drawing.

[Iceaxe]

Hmm, maybe there are some secret Zion canyons? The only 3-star Zion canyons Tom lists that require permits but aren't listed online are Kolob, Icebox, and Russell (and I doubt Russell would be 3 stars without the Subway exit...?).

Without a doubt... this is the third or fourth best canyon in Zion and its not on the permit list.

Checkerboard Canyon Route Description (http://climb-utah.com/Zion/checkboard.htm)

67035

The canyon did suffer after the 2007 Dakota Hills fire, but it has since returned to one of the best slots in Zion.

Enjoy... :popcorn:

[jman]

I recently had a friend wait at the Zion backcountry desk for a really long time only to find out that there weren't any walk-in permits available for any interesting canyons. That seems pretty ridiculous to me, and would be easily solved by a screen that displayed permit availability located at the backcountry desk. I would love to just do this myself because it's so easy. My pitch would be:

I've observed a problem where people waiting in the backcountry desk line can't tell whether it's worth waiting because the canyon(s) they want aren't even available. I'd like to solve this problem by giving you this device and a monitor for free -- it will display how many permits are available for each canyon (like the image below), updated every few minutes automatically with no intervention. It consumes only 5W with the monitor off, so the total annual electricity cost should be well under $10. The only operation it requires is for a ranger to turn the monitor on and off according to when it's needed. The only things I'd need in order to install it for you would be a power outlet and and ethernet jack (or someone to type in the wifi password, if one exists).

67034

Does anyone have any knowledge or experience about who at Zion I should talk to about this and whether they might be receptive?

I like the idea. You could try contacting Jock Whitworth - the Zion Superintendent. Worth a shot id say.

[qedcook]

Not to troll this thread, but who needs a permit? Just do the canyon anyway. :naughty: Permits? We don't got no stinking permits, we don't need no stinking permits! :nono: :nono: :nono:

[qedcook]

I wasn't terribly impressed with Checkerboard. It was good and all, but top 5?

[Iceaxe]

Not to troll this thread, but who needs a permit? Just do the canyon anyway. :naughty: Permits? We don't got no stinking permits, we don't need no stinking permits! :nono: :nono: :nono:


I don't have to run faster than the ranger.... I just have to run faster than you. :2thumbs:

:lol8:

[Iceaxe]

I wasn't terribly impressed with Checkerboard. It was good and all, but top 5?

When did you do it? The Dakota Hills fire really trashed the canyon and filled it with debris and sand. It has only recently (meaning this year, maybe last) returned to top form.

[qedcook]

When did you do it? The Dakota Hills fire really trashed the canyon and filled it with debris and sand. It has only recently (meaning this year, maybe last) returned to top form.

Whoa, Iceaxe, I ain't telling you when. You're just trying to check if I had a permit to do it! jk. I did it this year, within the last month. It was good and a must-do, but I'd rate Kolob, Pine Creek, Subway, and Mystery above it. Haven't done Heaps or Imlay.

[bjp]

Icebox is a good one, though the approach is fairly hot during the height of summer.
And its length probably makes it not such a good "in between" canyon (which is what I imagine most people doing walk-ins are trying to get).


Keyhole usually doesn't fill up either, but it's short.
Even Keyhole was 100% booked Memorial Day weekend (though, somewhat to be expected on that weekend as you point out)



Without a doubt... this is the third or fourth best canyon in Zion and its not on the permit list.
Thanks for the tip -- good thing I'm already in the Circle :) My team and I appreciated your Red Hollow beta as an in-between canyon last time we couldn't get permits.


I like the idea. You could try contacting Jock Whitworth - the Zion Superintendent. Worth a shot id say.
Oddly, I couldn't find his official contact info, but he has very low privacy settings on his Facebook profile. Thanks for the name.

[Spiderzak]

In my brief time as a canyoneer, I have already received several Zion permits as a walk in. In all cases, there was almost no line and in all cases I was without an internet connection or smartphone to check availability on my own. Still, I see the usefullness. It would be nice to be able to clearly see what is available for the next 2-3 days and plan accordingly, rather than asking the ranger to look up permits for every canyon I have interest in (and then going back 5 minutes later when I realize I forgot to check this other one).

[nelsonccc]

When did you do it? The Dakota Hills fire really trashed the canyon and filled it with debris and sand. It has only recently (meaning this year, maybe last) returned to top form.

We did it in '07 fairly recently after the fire and it was a mess. Everything was coated in slick black mud. We came out of there looking like we'd been to hell and back. Comparing my pictures to the ones Dan just posted its like night and day. Im thinking i may have to go back....

[TommyBoy]

If you are the type to get a permit then you do need one for the narrows when doing checkerboard since you drop in above big springs.

[Iceaxe]

If you are the type to get a permit then you do need one for the narrows when doing checkerboard since you drop in above big springs.

That's not correct....

To do it all legally you ask for a Checkerboard permit. If you get a Checkerboard permit it includes the Narrows exit. Just write it up as entering at Dakota Hills and exiting at the Temple of Sinawava.

This is the same as getting an Englestead permit, which includes exiting out Orderville (no seperate Orderville permit required).

[TommyBoy]

Huh the ranger at the desk must not have known what he was doin. Big surprise there.

[Kuya]

This is the same as getting an Englestead permit, which includes exiting out Orderville (no seperate Orderville permit required).

So wish I would have known about this 2 weeks ago. $5 wasted!! :facepalm1:

[Iceaxe]

FYI-
Kolob includes a Narrows permit.
Englestead includes Orderville
Checkerboard includes Narrows
Bulloch includes Orderville

Just make sure you list your intended start and finish on the permit. One hiccup in this and that is if you are doing Kolob as a two day through hike you must reserve a Narrows camp spot or bivy before you reach the Narrows.

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[Kuya]

Thanks Shane! That is very helpful.

[bjp]

Bulloch includes Orderville


Climb-utah's been holding out on me? :)

[skiclimb3287]

Not sure this is completely true. I just picked up englestead permits for the first weekend of August online. When I selected down orderville and hit submit, it kicked me back and said all orderville permits were taken, please choose a different exit.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk 2

[Iceaxe]

Not sure this is completely true. I just picked up englestead permits for the first weekend of August online. When I selected down orderville and hit submit, it kicked me back and said all orderville permits were taken, please choose a different exit.

Englestead might have started counting in the Orderville daily quota, if so, that is new and just another reason to avoid the Zion permit clusterf**k.

[Iceaxe]

Climb-utah's been holding out on me? :)

Soon as I get around to doing it I'll post it ;-)

It's supposed to be pretty good, but a very long day. Lots of bushwhacking for a fair section of canyon. I really do very little in Zion anymore, their rules and permits have pretty much ruined my outdoor experience in the park. I expect ATM machines at the trailheads, and lifeguards at the potholes any day now.

[nelsonccc]

Soon as I get around to doing it I'll post it ;-)

It's supposed to be pretty good, but a very long day. Lots of bushwhacking for a fair section of canyon. I really do very little in Zion anymore, their rules and permits have pretty much ruined my outdoor experience in the park. I expect ATM machines at the trailheads, and lifeguards at the potholes any day now.

Yeah, we still need to do this. I took a good look at the exit this past weekend when coming down Orderville. Let's get the ole Uutah gang together again and hit it.

[Iceaxe]

Let's get the ole Uutah gang together again and hit it.

That would be a fun trip. :2thumbs:

[Yeti18]

Do Misery and Hidden still require permits? I couldn't find them on the canyon reservation list on the Zion NP website.

[Iceaxe]

Misery doesn't require a permit because it is outside the park.

Hidden requires a permit as do all canyons inside the park that require ropes.

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[ratagonia]

Only the most popular canyons are on the on-line list.

Tom

[Deathcricket]

I recently had a friend wait at the Zion backcountry desk for a really long time only to find out that there weren't any walk-in permits available for any interesting canyons. That seems pretty ridiculous to me, and would be easily solved by a screen that displayed permit availability located at the backcountry desk. I would love to just do this myself because it's so easy. My pitch would be:

I've observed a problem where people waiting in the backcountry desk line can't tell whether it's worth waiting because the canyon(s) they want aren't even available. I'd like to solve this problem by giving you this device and a monitor for free -- it will display how many permits are available for each canyon (like the image below), updated every few minutes automatically with no intervention. It consumes only 5W with the monitor off, so the total annual electricity cost should be well under $10. The only operation it requires is for a ranger to turn the monitor on and off according to when it's needed. The only things I'd need in order to install it for you would be a power outlet and and ethernet jack (or someone to type in the wifi password, if one exists).

67034

Does anyone have any knowledge or experience about who at Zion I should talk to about this and whether they might be receptive?

uhh not to derail your thread. But you are going about this all wrong. you need to turn this into a phone App, sell for a couple bucks and become rich beyond your wildest dreams. :2thumbs:

[Iceaxe]

uhh not to derail your thread. But you are going about this all wrong. you need to turn this into a phone App, sell for a couple bucks and become rich beyond your wildest dreams. :2thumbs:

That would ne sweet. :2thumbs:

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[canyonguru]

Skiclimb. What day in august we have 12 slots for ordervile on aug. 9th its a friday. i should have some extra ones if you want them. i am not sure on my group size yet but if that is the same weekend you will be there we can figure a way of giving them to you. If not i will let the dest know that what our group size is a couple days before.

[canyoncaver]

I've been through Englestead twice. Both times they required me to also get an Orderville permit. The first time was in 2009.

[Iceaxe]

I've been through Englestead twice. Both times they required me to also get an Orderville permit. The first time was in 2009.


I've done Englestead a half dozen times and never picked up an Orderville permit (last time I believe was 2010). I have no clue if my Englestead permit counted against the Orderville quota, but I was only issued one permit that listed my entry and exit and I was not charged for an extra canyon.


I'd like to hear the experience of others? How was your Englestead permit been issued the past several years? Is this something that depends on the ranger on duty?

:ne_nau:

[Kuya]

I've done Englestead a half dozen times and never picked up an Orderville permit (last time I believe was 2010). I have no clue if my Englestead permit counted against the Orderville quota, but I was only issued one permit that listed my entry and exit and I was not charged for an extra canyon.


I'd like to hear the experience of others? How was your Englestead permit been issued the past several years? Is this something that depends on the ranger on duty?

:ne_nau:

Went two weeks ago and Orderville exit was included as part of my Englestead permit. I received my Engelstad permit through the last minute lottery. I don't know if it counted against the Orderville quota though.

[nelsonccc]

First couple of times my permit did not include a separate orderville permit. However on our last Englestead trip in '11 we were forced to hike up and out since there were no more available permits for orderville. We were just going to go down it anyways but happened to run into a couple of rangers at the exit of englestead who had hiked down to make sure we didn't go down orderville, especially since there was a flash flood warning and it was raining pretty hard.

[Aj84737]

I tried to get a englestead permit the other day with my express member id and selected the down orderville exit and it came back that there were no permits for orderville left and would only process the permit if I selected the up orderville exit on the permit.

[2065toyota]

I tried to get a englestead permit the other day with my express member id and selected the down orderville exit and it came back that there were no permits for orderville left and would only process the permit if I selected the up orderville exit on the permit.

Since you can't seem to find a 300' deep canyon I have some openings for the 29th and can show you the way there :haha:.

[Aj84737]

Since you can't seem to find a 300' deep canyon I have some openings for the 29th and can show you the way there :haha:.

Haha I knew better then to comment on an englestead thread with you. If you have room for two sign me up. Are you exiting up or down.

[qedcook]

Again, why get an Englestead permit at all? Just get an Orderville permit. And even that's overkill! :nono:

[canyoncaver]

Again, why get an Englestead permit at all? Just get an Orderville permit. And even that's overkill! :nono:

Care to explain what the frack you are talking about here? How is getting one of the two required permits "overkill" ?

[Bo_Beck]

If it's all about the big drop, you could do how it's done here and not need an Orderville permit!

[nelsonccc]

Care to explain what the frack you are talking about here? How is getting one of the two required permits "overkill" ?

He's saying that since it sounds like you're required to have an Orderville permit then just get one of those and don't even bother with getting an Englestead Permit. Why pay for two permits when you only need one. You'd be poaching Englestead but be legal for the high traffic area where you're more likely to run into rangers. If I remember correctly I think it's only the last rap that is in the park anyways.

[canyoncaver]

We were just going to go down it anyways but appened to run into a couple of rangers at the exit of englestead who had hiked down to make sure we didn't go down orderville...

Your own quote above is reason enough for me to disagree.

[Aj84737]

When you link up canyons like englestead and orderville you only need to pay for one permit price not double. It shows everything on one permit. So therefor you don't need to pay twice. Das boot through the subway would be the same thing. 2 canyons 1 price. However doing 2 canyons such as keyhole and pine creek being they don't link up is 2 permits and you pay for twice.

[nelsonccc]

Your own quote above is reason enough for me to disagree.

True enough. There's always risk. In this case they where there since there was a flash flood warning and they wanted to make sure we went up. Of the 6-7 times I've done Englestead and the 2-3 times I've done Birch this was the only time I saw a ranger. And I stand by my statement that if you secure an Orderville permit then you take out most of the risk.

[TommyBoy]

I don't know, if I was a ranger and saw someone hauling 300' of rope down orderville, I'd be mighty suspicious.

[Iceaxe]

I don't know, if I was a ranger and saw someone hauling 300' of rope down orderville, I'd be mighty suspicious.

Which is why you wouldn't carry 300' of rope. It's much easier to stay low profile using the staged entrance and being able to carry all your rope inside your packs (or have a partner pull your 300' rope after you begin the route). And you can't have any climbing gear or helmets hanging from your pack after you hit Orderville.

As a general rule the permits system really stops the novice canyoneer and those unfamiliar with the routes from poaching. Experienced canyoneers who are familiar with the routes have little difficulty poaching any of the Zion routes if that is their desire.

[ratagonia]

When you link up canyons like englestead and orderville you only need to pay for one permit price not double. It shows everything on one permit. So therefor you don't need to pay twice. Das boot through the subway would be the same thing. 2 canyons 1 price. However doing 2 canyons such as keyhole and pine creek being they don't link up is 2 permits and you pay for twice.

If you walked from Keyhole to Pine Creek, you would only need one permit. Most people though prefer to drive.

Tom

[ratagonia]

I don't know, if I was a ranger and saw someone hauling 300' of rope down orderville, I'd be mighty suspicious.

Which prompts me to remind you:

A. do not lie to a Federal Law Enforcement person. They can tell, usually, and they kinda take it personally. This is a larger offense than poaching a canyon.

B. If a ranger asks you what you have been doing, you can say "I have been enjoying the beauty of Zion National Park". You are not required to be more specific when they ask you questions regarding their fishing expedition. Before the magistrate, it is their responsibility to prove an infraction occurred. They can give you a ticket based on suspicion, but...

C. If you are poaching canyons, you should probably not ego-blog about it on a public forum.

I am not a lawyer, but I play one in my imagination...

:moses:

[nelsonccc]

If you walked from Keyhole to Pine Creek, you would only need one permit. Most people though prefer to drive.

Tom

Really? I didn't know that. That's especially good to know 'cause it's usally pretty easy to get a Keyhole permit and not so much for a Pine permit.

[qedcook]

C. If you are poaching canyons, you should probably not ego-blog about it on a public forum.

I am not a lawyer, but I play one in my imagination...

:moses:

Couldn't agree more. You have to be careful and word things carefully whenever you send out anything, a text, a blog, an email, anything. I am talking strictly hypothetical stuff here. When I did Englestead, I got a permit. But if the permit hadn't been available, I don't know what I would have done...

[2065toyota]

But if the permit hadn't been available, I don't know what I would have done...

Could just choose one of the other 60+ canyons available in the Zion area to do

[Scott P]

That's especially good to know 'cause it's usally pretty easy to get a Keyhole permit and not so much for a Pine permit.

You can do them as a single permit, but there actually needs to be spaces in both canyons for them to give you that permit.

Same with Echo/Mystery combo, for example. Echo/Mystery would be fairly easy to combine, but they won't give you a combined permit for both canyons unless spaces are open for both canyons. If you read carefully though, you don't need a permit to ascend slot canyons. If you can climb up Echo you won't need a permit. I have thought of trying it with a happy hooker, but don't know how hard it would be.

[ratagonia]

Really? I didn't know that. That's especially good to know 'cause it's usally pretty easy to get a Keyhole permit and not so much for a Pine permit.

You would still need Pine Creek quota, but you would pay for only one permit, a Keyhole & Pine Creek permit. :naughty:

T

[ratagonia]

You can do them as a single permit, but there actually needs to be spaces in both canyons for them to give you that permit.

Same with Echo/Mystery combo, for example. Echo/Mystery would be fairly easy to combine, but they won't give you a combined permit for both canyons unless spaces are open for both canyons. If you read carefully though, you don't need a permit to ascend slot canyons. If you can climb up Echo you won't need a permit. I have thought of trying it with a happy hooker, but don't know how hard it would be.

Incorrect. You need a permit to be in a part of a canyon that is normally traversed with ropes. So it requires no permit to wade and scramble up Middle Echo to the base of the last rappel, but proceeding further from there would require a permit.

As I said, I play a lawyer in my imagination... :facepalm1:

Tom

[skiclimb3287]

Skiclimb. What day in august we have 12 slots for ordervile on aug. 9th its a friday. i should have some extra ones if you want them. i am not sure on my group size yet but if that is the same weekend you will be there we can figure a way of giving them to you. If not i will let the dest know that what our group size is a couple days before.

Thanks for the offer Canyonguru! We are actually doing the canyon on the 10th and have the permits to go down Orderville. We were originally trying to switch to the weekend prior to accommodate some friends of ours and only could get Englestead up, but other friends signed on for the 10th so we are keeping it there.

Can't wait. It will be all of out first times down Englestead!!!!

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk 2

[Bo_Beck]

I always lie when I'm getting rung up at a register and a clerk forgets to ring up an item. I get to the car and realize what a great deal I've gotten. They'll never know the difference. It's easy to do a little tweaking to i-phones so that all movie downloads are free....those guys in the movie industry are so rich they'll never know the difference. I hide a can of beer with a coke can cover when I'm driving. That always throws them off. They'll never know the difference. Just curious though? At your jobs (work) do you purposely deviate from your standards to see what your boss or bottom line might see? Lets say that you start a database at your work to see what the affect of using a cheaper asian material in the production might have in the quality of your product might be; low and behold the supplier has been sneaking in USA materials because he found them cheaper. Now you are convinced that asian materials are the way to go, so you turn your total production of goods to asian materials. You soon find out that quality issues have become an issue because they've reverted to actual asian materials. What value is your database? ...figure it out. Poach as you may and I'll always watch you with an eagle eye when you enter my business...rest assured. And thanks for letting me know who you are.

[hank moon]

this thread...like a bunch of 3rd graders talking about sex :) oops.

[Iceaxe]

Poach as you may and I'll always watch you with an eagle eye when you enter my business...rest assured. And thanks for letting me know who you are.

:wavey:

[qedcook]

Poach as you may and I'll always watch you with an eagle eye when you enter my business...rest assured. And thanks for letting me know who you are.

Two points. One, no one on this thread has admitted to poaching. It's all been hypothetical scenarios. I've never poached, but it would be VERY easy given the number of canyons I've done and not gotten asked to show my permit.

Two, comparing poaching canyons to theft and other felonies/misdemeanors is totally bogus. Apples and oranges.

Maybe poaching canyons are just the "gateway crimes." First you're poaching canyons, then you're murdering people. :nono:

[canyoncaver]

Two, comparing poaching canyons to theft and other felonies/misdemeanors is totally bogus. Apples and oranges.

Please explain how it is different. Because you happen to not agree with the particular law? Or do you have another reason that you think it is different?

[Iceaxe]

Please explain how it is different. Because you happen to not agree with the particular law? Or do you have another reason that you think it is different?

I consider one thief and the other civil disobedience... your milage may vary.... :cool2:


CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE - refusal to obey governmental demands or commands especially as a nonviolent and usually collective means of forcing concessions from the government.

Refusal to obey government demands or commands and nonresistance to consequent arrest and punishment. It is used especially as a nonviolent and usually collective means of forcing government concessions and has been a major tactic of nationalist movements in Africa and India, of the U.S. civil rights movement, and of labour and antiwar movements in many countries. Civil disobedience is a symbolic or ritualistic violation of the law, rather than a rejection of the system as a whole. The civil disobedient, finding legitimate avenues of change blocked or nonexistent, sees himself as obligated by a higher, extralegal principle to break some specific law. By submitting to punishment, the civil disobedient hopes to set a moral example that will provoke the majority or the government into effecting meaningful political, social, or economic change. The philosophical roots of civil disobedience lie deep in Western thought. Cicero, Thomas Aquinas, and John Locke, among others, appealed to systems of natural law that take precedence over the laws created by communities or states (positive law). More modern advocates and practitioners of civil disobedience include Henry David Thoreau, Mohandas K. Gandhi, and Martin Luther King, Jr.

[Deathcricket]

I consider one thief and the other civil disobedience... your milage may vary.... :cool2:


CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE - refusal to obey governmental demands or commands especially as a nonviolent and usually collective means of forcing concessions from the government.

Refusal to obey government demands or commands and nonresistance to consequent arrest and punishment. It is used especially as a nonviolent and usually collective means of forcing government concessions and has been a major tactic of nationalist movements in Africa and India, of the U.S. civil rights movement, and of labour and antiwar movements in many countries. Civil disobedience is a symbolic or ritualistic violation of the law, rather than a rejection of the system as a whole. The civil disobedient, finding legitimate avenues of change blocked or nonexistent, sees himself as obligated by a higher, extralegal principle to break some specific law. By submitting to punishment, the civil disobedient hopes to set a moral example that will provoke the majority or the government into effecting meaningful political, social, or economic change. The philosophical roots of civil disobedience lie deep in Western thought. Cicero, Thomas Aquinas, and John Locke, among others, appealed to systems of natural law that take precedence over the laws created by communities or states (positive law). More modern advocates and practitioners of civil disobedience include Henry David Thoreau, Mohandas K. Gandhi, and Martin Luther King, Jr.

Also a risk vs reward. The fine for poaching is $150. I would equate it to a speeding ticket. You know you shouldn't speed and it's against the law, but sometimes getting a place 3 minutes earlier is worth breaking the law over. plus you generally know the places you can speed and "get away" with it. Not sure I make the connection between shoplifters and canyon poachers, but Bo always helps me when I go into his shop anyways. Maybe that's why he gives me so much attention. :haha:

[Iceaxe]

Also a risk vs reward. The fine for poaching is $150. I would equate it to a speeding ticket.

Back in the dark years of the 55 mph I always preached: When over 50% of the population willingly breaks the law on a daily bases you have a bad law that needs to be addressed.


Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[qedcook]

Please explain how it is different. Because you happen to not agree with the particular law? Or do you have another reason that you think it is different?

This sounds like a troll comment more than anything. I've been baited into enough arguments to suspect that any evidence or argument I'd present to canyoncaver is most likely to be instantly rejected.

[nelsonccc]

CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE - refusal to obey governmental demands or commands especially as a nonviolent and usually collective means of forcing concessions from the government.

DING, DING...we have a winner. My buddy makes every attempt to secure a permit for a canyon that requires a permit but he refuses to wait in line during the prime hours for the walk-in permits or to get a permit not on the list on the website. IMO the permit system is stupid, archaic, and doesnt really work. The group size restrictions and # of people allowed in a particular canyon on any given day make no sense to me. And just because my buddy poaches canyons, speed on the freeway, and occasionally enjoys herb, does not mean he'd shoplift, rape, or kill someone.

[canyoncaver]

This sounds like a troll comment more than anything. I've been baited into enough arguments to suspect that any evidence or argument I'd present to canyoncaver is most likely to be instantly rejected.

Well, not really. Believe it or not I actually wanted to hear the argument. You presented an unsubstantiated declarative statement and I was just asking for you to explain it.

I appreciate those that took the time to explain their viewpoint rather than trying to label me. I just don't agree that willfully incurring citations will force concessions on the part of the government. Those guys have written a lot of citations, and I don't see what it has gained the canyoneering community. If anything, in their eyes it probably paints the community as a bunch of anarchists that are unwilling to follow rules. Groups that get branded as such often lose clout in the eyes of the managers. If disagreeing with qedcook is the criterion for being a troll, then I guess I'll go live under a bridge.

I do agree that the Zion permit system is terrible and needs to be readdressed. I like the analogy of the 55mph highway.

[qedcook]

Well, not really. Believe it or not I actually wanted to hear the argument.

Cool. Here my argument. I think others have said good points, but for me the biggest difference between stealing from a store and poaching a canyon is two fold, 1) safety, and 2) access. If I spend the time getting a permit for an all-day canyon and risk the safety of my group because of it, that's counter-intuitive to the purpose of the permit system. An secondly, the rangers don't own the national park land. It's public. Everyone owns it. Is it really stealing for me to go use lands that I have part ownership in? I understand overuse issues, but Kolob ain't being overused.

[Iceaxe]

I'm still curious if a ticket in Kolob would stand up in court because the stream is the dividing line. I mentioned this once to ranger Ray and his reply was "if I catch you in Kolob without a permit I'm issuing you a ticket and you can fight it in court".

To me that seemed a little heavy handed as ranger Ray knows it would be expensive and time consuming to challenge. A lot of times folks just pay a ticket, even when they are being wronged, because that is the easiest way to clean up an issue.

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3