Single Strand vs. Double Strand Rappel

[Erik B]

Excluding situations where single strand rappels are necessary (LONG raps w/ a pull line): Do you all rap with both ends of the rope or Biner-block and rappel single strand?

I've always taken comfort in having both ends of the rope in my hands (when possible), however, after looking at quiet a few pictures on the forums it dawned on me that many of you will Biner-block and rap on a single strand even on shorter rappels. Is it an issue of rappelling smoothly? Is it a rope-wear issue?

Does anyone do anything different than the biner-block method? I saw that interesting occam release mechanism
http://canyoncollective.com/threads/occam-releasable-anchor.18356/ the other day. Anybody try that? the Fiddle-stick/stone knot idea is pretty cool too. Thoughts?

[Scott P]

Personally, I don't see the point of using a biner block/ single strand rappel most of the time. If a canyon is super tight or for some other reason weight is a huge concern, I can see it, but not for something like Pine Creek (for example). Besides, having an extra rope along is always comforting in case you get a core shot or something (which is rare, but does happen on occasion).

Just my opinion.

[Slipknot]

There are benefits to both methods I feel that everyone should feel comfortable with either method because it is often situational. For short raps with my 60' rope or if there is potential for the biner to get snagged on a pull, I will double it.

I more frequently use the single line as opposed to double line for a few different reasons. If a rappel has several stages, especially with some flow, I find it to be a pain to throw all the rope down the first section, rappel down and approach the next stage, gather the rest of the rope, and then throw it down in order to continue the rappel. Rappelling with a silo below you makes this much easier. If I can't see the bottom of the rappel to verify the rope ends on the ground, I feel more comfortable sending down more rope than I think I need. Those of you who frequent this website know that there are always debates on beta for rap length. I also find it easier to go up a single line as well if that situation arises. It has only happened once but eventually ascending a rope will come up at some point in their canyoneering days.

Also, tying off on a double rap to untangle a rats nest of rope or rope caught on a bush is just not as easy unless you are using an autoblock (Not that I want to go there with this discussion). If you need to add friction you could always go with a leg loop biner. Although I can't remember ever needing more friction on a double line rappel.

I don't know if anyone has watched a middle marker on a rope while someone is on a double rap, but I have seen it move 5' because someone had a bit of a death grip squeezing one rope more than the other. The person got down to the last few feet and yelled to me that one end wasn't on the ground. Simple problem to fix but newbies get worried easily. I also had knots in the end just in case for them. I used to do a lot of long double raps and I would put knots in the end of a rope (raping down a multi-pitch climb) which takes longer and also runs the risk of someone forgetting to untie the knot and getting the rope stuck on the pull. If on a single line with 30' on the ground, you don’t' have to bother with it.

[Iceaxe]

One of my favorite topics..... taking something safe/simple and making it complicated/dangerous....

Here is what I posted last time this conversation came up. :popcorn:



I normally just tread my rope through and go.... nothing is faster, nothing is more simple.... and I'll argue nothing is safer....

Now I use the other methods when I have a reason... say I'm on a long rap and using a pull cord…. Or I have beginners I'm worried about needing to lower…..

One of my biggest beefs/complaints is that a lot of folks take simple rigging and make it complicated…. There is a reason most the accidents and death's involve biner blocks on skinny single ropes….

I practice KISS - Keep it Simple Stupid.

I Fell 106 Feet. And Lived
http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15131

Heaps Accident
http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7204

Pine Creek Accident
http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13057

Englestead Accident
http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17627

Pine Creek: SAR in Zion
http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8285

All the accidents listed above were a result (at least partially) of complicating the rigging.... More parts.... more crap that can go wrong....

:cool2:

[hesse15]

Excluding situations where single strand rappels are necessary (LONG raps w/ a pull line): Do you all rap with both ends of the rope or Biner-block and rappel single strand?
I've always taken comfort in having both ends of the rope in my hands (when possible), however, after looking at quiet a few pictures on the forums it dawned on me that many of you will Biner-block and rap on a single strand even on shorter rappels. Is it an issue of rappelling smoothly? Is it a rope-wear issue?
Does anyone do anything different than the biner-block method? I saw that interesting occam release mechanism
http://canyoncollective.com/threads/occam-releasable-anchor.18356/ the other day. Anybody try that? the Fiddle-stick/stone knot idea is pretty cool too. Thoughts?

first the video is a little scary with the tinycord and I do not know if there is weight on the rope you are able to lift up to open the biner.
I like single strand:allow to carry small pieces of ropes, is faster (been 120lbs took me forever on double ropes).
I like double only on sharp edges because is quicker to move the rubbing spot (when you take your device out you move the rope one arm lenght like they do in Italy canyoning)
i still prefer to be able to use the other strand for an emergency sitation in case you got the rappeller stuck (hair clothing) and you need to get to him quickly, never had to do yet but is an occurrance that could happens in situation

Scott :by the way how do you negotiate big rappels (30 feet and up) with a 6 years old kid? do you rap next to him, do you attach to your device like you do for a dog?
do you use un upper rope and lower him like they do when they guide people?
what about friction if he only weight 40lbs?
you are the most experience out there in terms of kids and canyons
any suggestions?

[oldno7]

I guess you could ask the girl we found suspended by her hair on the last rap in Pine Cr. Double strand rappel, last year.

Single strand will most always leave you options--unlike double, but there is a time and place for each.

[Iceaxe]

I guess you could ask the girl we found suspended by her hair on the last rap in Pine Cr. Double strand rappel, last year.

Single strand will most always leave you options--unlike double, but there is a time and place for each.

If no one was above your options are limited with either method. If someone is above you have multiple options with either method.

Two other thoughts... if you can't escape getting your hair or daddy parts caught in the rappel device do you really belong in the slots? And if you answered yes you are being guided, in which case the rules change, at least for my groups. YMMV


Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[hesse15]

Two other thoughts... if you can't escape getting your hair in the rappel device do you really belong in the slots?
3
what about if the lady is a cute one and you can play hero superman going down on the other rope and free her up?:stud::naughty::cool2:

[Scott P]

I like single strand:allow to carry small pieces of ropes, is faster (been 120lbs took me forever on double ropes).

Good point. I weigh ~235, so double strand for me is not the same as a double strand for someone much lighter. Double strand for me is probably similar to single strand for someone half the weight.

Diameter of ropes makes a huge difference as well. Having too much friction can also cause a sawing motion back and forth on the rock and cause damage.



Scott :by the way how do you negotiate big rappels (30 feet and up) with a 6 years old kid? do you rap next to him, do you attach to your device like you do for a dog?
do you use un upper rope and lower him like they do when they guide people?

When they were really small, we just lowered them. We used a chest harness so there was always 100% chance that they would stay upright.

It wasn't until Shaylee was 7 that we let her rappel. We were on a guided canyon in Dominica and they let her rappel. Of course when she got home she had to brag to her 9 year old brother that she got to rappel and then he wanted to. It wasn't then until we let them rappel.

Since then, they rappel themselves in canyons. Kessler currently has 36 canyons and Shaylee 21, along with several technical climbing routes, so they are really good at it now.

Usually they go single strand with a fireman belay at the bottom. If it's a really big rap on thin diameter, Kessler, the older one can go double strand, such as here in Alcatraz Canyon (he was 10 then, so was a little heaver than in the past):

http://images.summitpost.org/original/827284.JPG

The only time I've rappelled next to them is in a flowing waterfall.

Occasionally they have gone next to each other, just for fun though:

http://www.summitpost.org/images/medium/847658.JPG (http://www.summitpost.org/images/original/847658.JPG)

Even though they are good at rappelling, stemming, climbing, etc, and Kessler can easily hook himself up, we always go with at least one other adult along.

Usually someone else rappels first and belays the kids, but occasionally we let Kessler rappel down first, either because he wants to or because we want him to check something downcanyon. In that case, it has to be a fairly short drop and sometimes we make him go double. As mentioned, he is very confident now, but I still think it's a good idea to be cautious.

In many canyons, the kids are actually an asset now. It's easy for them to take the packs through the tight places of canyons like Alcatraz, while their chunky dad struggles and grunts to get through. They also make keeper potholes easier because you can easily pop them out and they can sometimes rig something up so we can climb out.


what about friction if he only weight 40lbs?

If they are too light, they will have to be lowered. A harness with a chest harness is better so they can't fall backwards or upside down.

Hope that helps.:cool2:

[hesse15]

Hope that helps.:cool2:
thanks I am a little stressed out kids are totally out of my league!!
so is a new skill I am going to learn! and add a lot of stress too!

[oldno7]

If no one was above your options are limited with either method. If someone is above you have multiple options with either method.




Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

If no one is above, your the last one down and your options are indeed limited:haha:

While it is technically true that a competent canyoneer can help someone from above, the difficulty factor is greatly increased with double strand.

And especially trying if you have all your rope committed to use on the rappel.

[Iceaxe]

And especially trying if you have all your rope committed to use on the rappel.

And this differs from those using single strand and a pull cord how? As I said "all things being equal" which means you both have a rope length to work with....

My deal is I don't believe complicating the system on nearly every rappel is safer than taking a few extra minutes on the very rare occasion you need to pull off a mid-line rescue.... YMMV

Seriously, I've been doing this for a long time with hundreds of noobs/kids and I've only had to pull off one mid-line rescue. And I know this will really disappoint Cristina because I didn't Superman down and do a he-man pick-off.... but the person caught was light so we just grabbed the ropes and muscled her back up to the top where we could correct the situation.... There were other options, but that was quickest... took all of two minutes.

:popcorn:

[oldno7]

And this differs from those using single strand and a pull cord how?



:popcorn:

Pull cords?? People actually use those??:lol8:

Single strand you always have access to a "rope" at least as long as the rappel to facilitate a rescue.

Such as lowering a victim out of a contingency system.

SRT guys say "what if"

DRT guys say--ain't nobody gots time for dat....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHaVc5i-Dzs

[Iceaxe]

If I lived my life doing "what if" I would have lived a boring life.

I teach my noobs to self rescue, if I need to set a contingency anchor they will not be canyoneering with me for long. If you don't know how to self rescue you don't know how to properly set an anchor or block.

Overall I believe it's safer to simplify.

Looks like we will just have to agree to disagree.

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[oldno7]

Self Rescue should be required learnin', no doubt.:2thumbs:


Drt has it's place as well, just not everyplace...

It's all just tools and knowledge to use them.

Simple comes with repetition.

But we've been down this road dozens of times before with equal results.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHaVc5i-Dzs

[rustyenduro]

Rappels into water can be easier using Single if you set the rope length correctly. I did that for Cathedral rappel so my group would not have to worry about a floating disconnect. All the other rappels were DS.

[Sandstone Addiction]

by the way how do you negotiate big rappels (30 feet and up) with a 6 years old kid? do you rap next to him, do you attach to your device like you do for a dog?
do you use un upper rope and lower him like they do when they guide people?
what about friction if he only weight 40lbs?
you are the most experience out there in terms of kids and canyons
any suggestions?

It took a while before my boys (oldest and youngest, that is) were comfortable enough to be lowered. Even after being climbing a few times. But we had good results with tandem rappelling. But it works best on raps with plenty of room and an easy start. Awkward starts and tight raps can be problematic.

65935



65936

Once they had been down a few times tandem, my oldest started to rap by himself and my youngest has no problem being lowered 70 feet.


65937

[ilipichicuma]

For me, I use double strand as long as I have the rope to double the rappel. This fat guy likes all the friction he can get. I will use single, though, when I'm not sure if the rope hit the ground, or when it's longer. However, I think that going double is simpler, faster, and safer most of the time.

[blamkin86]

After about 6 months of doing technical canyons, we prefer single with a biner block and a pull cord. We've had situations where the double rope gets twisted with itself when you can't see it going over a boulder or difficult ledge - leading to either awkward prusiks at the start of the rap, or in a couple situations requiring assistance.

Thanks to my fear of heights, we don't really do much over 100' drops. We carry two 120 canyon fire ropes and a much lighter pull cord and of course lots of webbing and rapides. We also carry a 2x2 piece of carpet and enough webbing to protect the edge whenever we can, although that's not always possible.

I do know one of the bigger guys who goes with us would like us to go double for the friction. I'm 175 without my pack and a single with one ear on the pirana is plenty for me, sometimes too slow.

We prefer to go a little slower and be as safe as possible. Not a criticism of anyone else's habits, just saying what we do. We are always open to learning and try new stuff often.

[Eric Holden]

Always Double stranded. Easy, simple, quick, no fuss, no muss...

[blamkin86]

Eric do you tie a Stone knot or anything at the top?

[Deathcricket]

Eric do you tie a Stone knot or anything at the top?

Stone knot for single strand rapping, not double.

[Kuya]

I feel it is important to know how to rig a contingency. Contingency riggings are pretty much only used with single rope rappels. I rappell both ways (double rope and single rope) but after learning some neat things from some very experienced canyoneers and SAR personnel, it is apparent how useful a single strand rope rigged with a contingency can be. I say LEARN all the ways to rappel safely. and if you are leading canyons, that person better understand how to perform a rescue, haul, or lower if needed.

[blamkin86]

Stone knot for single strand rapping, not double.

Yes I've learned that one and love it.

Let me try asking my question a different way: When you rap double, do you just throw the rope through the rapide at the top and start rapping, or is there any sort of kajiggering going on to keep one side of the two rope halves from slipping?

[Aj84737]

Yes I've learned that one and love it.

Let me try asking my question a different way: When you rap double, do you just throw the rope through the rapide at the top and start rapping, or is there any sort of kajiggering going on to keep one side of the two rope halves from slipping?

Just pull it through the rapid make sure both ends touch down and your golden. The pressure is consistant enough on both sides of the rope to not worry much about one side slipping much. That's why it's faster then setting up a biner block or stone knot.

One trick to not twist the ropes going double strand is to clip a biner to one rope above your rappel device and tie that into whatever setup you use to clip into your anchor with. For me I like the sterling PAS but it wouldn't matter what you used. The biner on one rope would take out the twists in it. It's a little annoying but only last man down needs to do it. I still however prefer to biner block or stone knot and single stand whenever possible.

[Eric Holden]

Eric do you tie a Stone knot or anything at the top?

Nope. Don't tie anything when double strand rappelling. I may tie a big ol fishermans knot on the end of any ends I think may be too short.

[rurri]

If doing something like Mystery with a couple of single rope rappels at the end I like to do the whole day single rope. Those last two rappels can already scare people, the last thing I want is to then change up the amount of friction and the method used to tie in.

If you do single rope the entire day on the little rappels earlier then the last two are more familiar.

A few reasons I am going more and more single rope:
-there are a lot more options to fix things if something goes wrong. (lowering)
-On the little shortie rappels you don't have to feed through and manage a ton of rope
-My rope stays out of the sand (especially nice if it got wet)
-Less things change (amount of friction) on the big wall rappels if you don't exclusively use single rope only on them.

Also, don't forget on double rope rappels things can also be rigged wrong. I know I once double checked myself and saw two ropes going into the belay device, and only one of the two ropes making it through the biner. Sure gave me a lot to think about.

[Renatomic808]

Anything with moving water, and/or pools at the bottom of your rappel; I say single strand. I feel it is easier to manage. However, it's also what I've practiced most. I'm totally comfortable with it, and I also weigh 230lbs.

Since our canyons are much more different than Utah canyons, we also have slightly different rope management techniques.

[ratagonia]

Stone knot for single strand rapping, not double.

If you Stone the rope, each rappeller can choose to go single or double.

:moses:

[taatmk]

If you Stone the rope, each rappeller can choose to go single or double.

:moses:

While I have no "typical" way of always doing the same thing, we commonly set up as Tom mentions. With a stone knot on a double strand, everyone has the option of doing it either single or double stranded. This way allows for an adult to simul rap with a youinger rappeller or a guy to simul with a gf or spouse....

Just be sure and have the last one down remember to undo the stone knot.

[Iceaxe]

Anything with moving water, and/or pools at the bottom of your rappel; I say single strand. I feel it is easier to manage.

With moving water single strand is the ONLY way to go.

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[joeb]

Okay - since everyone is showing off their kids :cool2:

66010

[joeb]

With the kids - we go single strand into pools of water for easy disconnect and almost always double strand 8mm for everything vertical or near vertical. I send down the oldest to fireman the others. They have never gotten stuck on rope (but we practice quite a bit off the backyard treehouse so they are comfortable with various descenders, rope sizes etc

[Iceaxe]

When you are "guiding", single strand is the way to go.

But I seldom guide. I teach my noobs WTF so they are capable of dealing with situations like getting a tit caught in the rappel device. That seriously happen to a chick on one of our trips... hahaha... and she quickly dealt with the problem. It was pretty damn funny and everyone had a good chuckle after she was down.

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[Spartacus]

When you are "guiding", single strand is the way to go.

But I seldom guide. I teach my noobs WTF so they are capable of dealing with situations like getting a tit caught in the rappel device. That seriously happen to a chick on one of our trips... hahaha... and she quickly dealt with the problem. It was pretty damn funny and everyone had a good chuckle after she was down.

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

Talk about your titty-twister from hell!

[blamkin86]

Just be sure and have the last one down remember to undo the stone knot.

We have one member in our group who is convinced we'll forget, so we generally don't Stone, even though I love it.

Personally, I'm convinced I'm going to rig into the pull side and just superman right off the edge. I generally check 5-10 times every rap to make sure I picked the right strand.

[blamkin86]

I teach my noobs WTF so they are capable of dealing with situations like getting a tit caught in the rappel device.

I tried to google for WTF rappelling and canyoneering, and as you can imagine I didn't get much helpful info.

Is there a link to something I could read about this? I'm all about learning right now.

[Iceaxe]

Hahaha....

WTF = what the f**k

As in "I teach my noobs WTF they are doing...."

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[Slot Machine]

There are benefits to both methods I feel that everyone should feel comfortable with either method because it is often situational.

^^Nice post!^^ X2

Every rappel persents a unique problem to solve. Sometimes obvious, sometimes not.

We used to be determined to rap double every chance we could but frequently ran into problems with this mindset. Rappelling down two ropes twisted around each other isn't fun. Trying to pull down ropes twisted around each other is even less fun. Ain't nobody got time for that, so we improved our methods.

We now back up our biner blocks for the first rappeller(s). Our last man deploys the pullcord, which is normally held clear of the rappel line by a teammate standing below, then the last man unclips the backup. This leaves no chance of clipping into the wrong side, no chance of tangles, and no chance of twisting the ropes and getting them stuck (or semi-stuck).

SRT is easy and safe once you develop a fine-tuned process for double-checking and testing your setup. Perhaps developing a solid process is where the real danger lies... :ne_nau:

[blamkin86]

Hahaha....

WTF = what the f**k

As in "I teach my noobs WTF they are doing...."



Well, now it makes sense at least :haha:

I think we should come up with some W T and F letters that teach people what to do when something goes bad on the way down. Rope has an unexpected knot, I got my hair caught, I'm at the end of the rope 100' up, or whatever.

[ratagonia]

We have one member in our group who is convinced we'll forget, so we generally don't Stone, even though I love it.

Personally, I'm convinced I'm going to rig into the pull side and just superman right off the edge. I generally check 5-10 times every rap to make sure I picked the right strand.

Send the "one member" down first, then you can do what you want. :naughty:

:moses:

[ratagonia]

Personally, I'm convinced I'm going to rig into the pull side and just superman right off the edge. I generally check 5-10 times every rap to make sure I picked the right strand.

When rigging a biner block, it is a GOOD idea to secure the pull side to the anchor, as a matter of habit. Thus, if someone selects the wrong strand, it becomes funny-haha, rather than WTF.

Tom