Manti Boy Scouts, leaders airlifted after being stranded in slot canyon

[tmartenst]

http://img.ksl.com/slc/2506/250663/25066326.JPG?filter=ksl/story_635

WAYNE COUNTY — A group of Boy Scouts and their adult leaders had to be airlifted after getting stranded while hiking in a slot canyon Saturday night.

A group of seven Boy Scouts, ages 14-18, and three adult leaders traveled from Manti to Wayne County for a hiking trip Saturday afternoon. The group planned to complete a difficult hike in a slot canyon known as Pandora's Box, according to Wayne County Deputy Sheriff Matthew Webster.

Five of the Boy Scouts and one of the leaders were able to complete the difficult hike and made it out of the canyon around 1 a.m. Sunday morning. However, the remaining two Boy Scouts and two leaders were unable to make the hike out and were stranded.

The scouts and leaders that completed the hike were able to call the Wayne County Sheriff's Department for help. A helicopter and search and rescue team responded at 8:30 a.m. and were able to airlift the Boy Scouts and leaders from the canyon.

No injuries were reported in the incident.

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=24881734&nid=148&title=manti-boy-scouts-leaders-airlifted-after-being-stranded-in-slot-canyon&fm=home_page&s_cid=featured-1

[Sombeech]

Wonder if it's anybody on bogley. I'll bet one way or another we'll be hearing the account first hand here.

[kiwi_outdoors]

Marines would not leave their own behind. Boy Scouts ruining their reputation (I am an ex ASM)

[TommyBoy]

Guess they didn't read the warnings recently posted here. Glad everyone made it out safely though

[Scott P]

Guess they didn't read the warnings recently posted here.

Those were for using a different exit.

In this case, I'm guessing the scouts/leaders got stuck in the canyon itself (can anyone confirm?).

I like adventure and taking scouts on stuff, but Pandoras Box really isn't a place I'd call scout trip friendly.

[ilipichicuma]

\I like adventure and taking scouts on stuff, but Pandoras Box really isn't a place I'd call scout trip friendly.

That's what I was thinking. I haven't gotten to do it yet, but from what I've read and heard, Pandora's Box sounds a bit more intense that what you want to take a bunch of scouts into, unless they're really worked up to it, I suppose.

[Kuya]

Having just taken my Boy Scouts through Baptist Draw yesterday, I can hardly believe this news report. WHAT WERE THESE LEADERS THINKING!?

[Iceaxe]

Pandora's Box is not an acceptable route for youth groups. If nothing else it's a very long day.

I also have a problem with leaders taking youth groups to do a route they have not done before, which I'm guessing is the case with this one.

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[Mountaineer]

I also have a problem with leaders taking youth groups to do a route they have not done before, which I'm guessing is the case with this one.


If so, it goes against council guidelines, at least GSLC.

[Kuya]

Pandora's Box is not an acceptable route for youth groups. If nothing else it's a very long day.

I also have a problem with leaders taking youth groups to do a route they have not done before, which I'm guessing is the case with this one.

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

That was my first question. "Had the leaders done this canyon before?!" And if they had, what kind of experience were they trying to give the kids? I know of very few kids that enjoy even 1 hour exit hikes, let alone exit and approach hikes that can take up to 7 hours! This just blows my mind.

[WorkBad]

Having just taken my Boy Scots through Baptist Draw yesterday, I can hardly believe this news report. WHAT WERE THESE LEADERS THINKING!?

Sorry I couldn't resist... I just finished watching Brave Heart tonight, Scouts Honor!
65439

[Kuya]

If so, it goes against council guidelines, at least GSLC.

Sadly Mark, the problem is the UNPC doesn't have a concrete canyoneering policy :(

[WorkBad]

Kuya, I'm just jealous of you and your troop because my scout leaders never took me through canyons when I was young. Good on ya!

I'm also very happy everyone in the article survived to tell about it!

[Mountaineer]

Sadly Mark, the problem is the UNPC doesn't have a concrete canyoneering policy :(

True. I know Trapper Trails is working toward one.

[yetigonecrazy]

Having just taken my Boy Scouts through Baptist Draw yesterday, I can hardly believe this news report. WHAT WERE THESE LEADERS THINKING!?

As soon as I saw the news headline, my stomach dropped, I thought of you and I went, "No.........". But then it said Pandora's and I was relieved. Glad to hear you guys got through Baptist, how was it?

[Kuya]

As soon as I saw the news headline, my stomach dropped, I thought of you and I went, "No.........". But then it said Pandora's and I was relieved. Glad to hear you guys got through Baptist, how was it?

Thanks so much for thinking of us and being concerned. Baptist Draw and Upper Chute were beautiful as always! Every boy and leader there had a wonderful time in the canyon. The weather was perfect for Spring canyoneering: It was warm enough to hike with out a jacket, but cool enough to need one when stopped. All the boys did great on the rappels, Their favorite parts were "dark" sections of Upper Chute canyon. The total time for my group of 12 to do this canyon (exiting out of north end of Upper Chute) was a little over 4 hours.

Is is a bad thing when I have more leaders on these trips than boys? hehehehehe

[moab mark]

Is is a bad thing when I have more leaders on these trips than boys? hehehehehe
That is usually the case with Scout activities that have adventure.:2thumbs:

[Iceaxe]

FWIW - I know the scouts were rescued from the actual slot canyon. The part of the group that became stranded never made it to the exit rappel.

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[Mountaineer]

The total time for my group of 12 to do this canyon (exiting out of north end of Upper Chute) was a little over 4 hours.



For this particular Manti troop, we don't have many details, so slow to make any judgment.

However, not to side track the thread...but awesome, good to know! Very helpful Kuya to us scout leaders out there on your trip time as we weigh the factors in choosing a site.

I will also venture to guess, that your success had a few important factors that may be worth mentioning that may seem subtle, but make a ton of difference. Always a chance for misfortune, but you can minimize risk.



Some include:

1. You are familiar with the canyon (site), hazards, raps, ... having done it before.
2. You know the abilities/limitations of your group.
3. You have contingency plans based on a number of possible issues.
4. You are following BSA guidelines: Qualified supervisors/instructors, discipline, equipment, environment, planning, medical/fitness.

[Iceaxe]

5. Selected a route that guarantee's a high probability of success.

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[hesse15]

For this particular Manti troop, we don't have many details, so slow to make any judgment.

love those boyscouts misadventures!!!
was a while that you did not hear from them in the news!
at least when they did not involved death they made pretty funny story telling around campsite!!!!
like the one " chubby kid stuck in zeroG"?
that was funny!!!!
with so little news still I will say poor judgment in taking bunch of kids to Pandora for sure!!!!

SAR does not have much money so is better if they are deployed for real life emergency and this does one not seem the case .

[Kuya]

Kuya, I'm just jealous of you and your troop because my scout leaders never took me through canyons when I was young. Good on ya!

I'm also very happy everyone in the article survived to tell about it!

Thanks WorkBad! I too am Jealous of my scouts. I would have LOVED to do stuff like this as a Scout. We had the San Rafael Swell as our literal back yard, and we didn't have a clue to how awesome it really was! :facepalm1: Being in leader in scouting now is really just an excuse to go out and play and do all the things I wish I could have done as a boy :lol8: LOL

[Iceaxe]

I had an awesome scout leader when I was a kid. He took us everywhere and we did everything, I still can't believe he brought us all back alive from all our trips. First night I spent in a snow cave was with my scout troop, first time I kayaked a river was with my scout troop, First time I ever backpacked for a week through the Uinta's was with my scout troop, first time I climbed Mount Olympus was with my scout troop.... thanks Mr. Winn. :2thumbs:

And just in case he reads this.... first time I hot wired a car and took it for a joy ride was with my scout troop, first time I made out with a chick was with my scout troop, first time I hookey bobbed was with my scout troop.... that's some of the stuff he never knew about. :haha:

Scouting was fun. :2thumbs:

[Kuya]

love those boyscouts misadventures!!!
...
...
...
...
with so little news still I will say poor judgment in taking bunch of kids to Pandora for sure!!!!

SAR does not have much money so is better if they are deployed for real life emergency and this does one not seem the case .


I disagree, What exactly is there to love about Boy Scout misadventures? makes me sick every time it happens. those are other peoples kids, and when ever something stupid or bad happens it makes it that much harder for the rest of us to do cool things in scouting.

I do agree that it was poor judgement for any scout leader to take a troop through Pandoras Box. There are so many other wonderful slot canyons that are much more scout friendly than that one. If it was a venturing troop I MIGHT think differently though. Depends on the skill level of the leader and the kids.

What exactly makes this rescue ineligible for SAR help? Kids and leaders were stranded in the canyon. Sounds like a real emergency to me.

[nelsonccc]

Scouts and canyons CAN be fun but are a ton of work. When I was a scout leader a few years ago we decided to do some slot canyons. I was doing a couple a month with some of the other guys in the neighborhood. I was so concerned about safety that we first went to a local cliff and practiced rappelling a few weekends in a row. Then a few weeks later we did Keyhole all in prep for doing Spry. What a nightmare. Even though we had prepared and every boy had a set-up and wetsuit it still ended up being a very long day. I had underestimated how long it would take to get that many leaders and boys down each rap. On top of that I was unaware that the dirt cone descent route had been blocked off. We'd used the dirt cone the first few times I'd done it (this was long before they decided not to allow this and put up the signs). SO when we arrived at the dirt cone and there was a sign there we started going down stream and hiking around big boulders. We did not do the big cliff rap there in the middle. Since at this time it was night and our main goal was to get down. In any case.....one mother had called the NPS and they had seen our lights coming down and were waiting at the bottom. We were all okay but roughly 5-6 hours past due. We didn't get back to the road till about 9, so when the the mother hadn't heard from her kid (we were supposed to be back in Vegas by 7ish) she panicked and assumed we were all dead.

Very frustrating. We were never in any danger and we all had lights (just in case) and the leaders all had overnight gear (again just in case). We always knew where we were and decided early on that it was more important to be thorough and safe rather than fast and dangerous. We did have some pretty cold kids at one point with the darkness coming and the wind blowing and wet kids at the bottom waiting for an hour or so while others rapped. But nothing too serious. It was an eye opening experience that even though we were prepared and ready for the trip it still took us about twice as long as I had expected. Myself and two of the other leaders had done pretty much every canyon in Zion before the trip but still that extra time kept creeping and creeping till parents got scared. When we got home my wife said that she'd been fielding calls from worried parents all evening.

So in any case I would never, ever, tackle a canyon with youth that I had not done before and on subsequent trips to Pine and Echo we told the parents not to expect a call or get worried till at least midnight.

[rnelson]

5. Selected a route that guarantee's a high probability of success.

I especially feel like this point is often overlooked - there ought never be even a question of whether or not a troop would be able to successfully complete a canyon.

[nelsonccc]

I had an awesome scout leader when I was a kid. He took us everywhere and we did everything, I still can't believe he brought us all back alive from all our trips. First night I spent in a snow cave was with my scout troop, first time I kayaked a river was with my scout troop, First time I ever backpacked for a week through the Uinta's was with my scout troop, first time I climbed Mount Olympus was with my scout troop.... thanks Mr. Winn. :2thumbs:

And just in case he reads this.... first time I hot wired a car and took it for a joy ride was with my scout troop, first time I made out with a chick was with my scout troop, first time I hookey bobbed was with my scout troop.... that's some of the stuff he never knew about. :haha:

Scouting was fun. :2thumbs:

Ditto. So many cool experiences as a scout. So many close-calls. Like the time I was playing with a lighter in the suburban as we were driving to a camp site and accidentally lit another kids hair on fire. Or the time two other scouts pulled open the doors to the young woman's tent while I mooned about 10 girls and three leaders (I later heard that I accidentally gave them the full BULL view, sack and all). I was the 'bad kid' for quite some time after that. The bishops boy was no longer allowed to hang out with me.

Great memories and the difficult or dangerous situations are the ones I remember the most. So many harrowing experiences!

[hesse15]

.
i wrote a long answer but after I realized was mostly smashing at boyscouts and their negative records of accident so I removed

just hoping that because of these accidents they will not put permit system in canyons !!

I will not send my kids with boyscouts after all of those accidents, unless I am allow to check first hand the competence of the leader!

[airman]

It would be nice to know the particulars of this incident so that all may learn from it. I hope someone will post additional info on what happened. Not knowing what happened, I will refrain from passing judgment. I

[unimog]

There are a lot of assumptions flying on this thread about the capabilities of these scouts and their leaders. In my opinion, The fact that they are a BSA group says nothing about either unless you are using a stereotype or know facts that have not been stated here. It also has little to do with whether the rescue was fully warranted or "wasted" as seems to be the opinion of some here. If exhaustion or getting in over your head does not warrant rescue, that would certainly eliminate a lot of SAR activity.

[phatch]

If exhaustion or getting in over your head does not warrant rescue, that would certainly eliminate a lot of SAR activity.

On the Rim-to-Rim hike in the Grand Canyon, the rangers routinely offer up water and the occasional pain med to exhausted hikers saying "tough it out". The costs of rescuing exhausted hikers on this trail is prohibitive because it would be multiple times per day.

The risks are certainly different on this hike than in Pandora. Hikers are visible, easy to check on with many contacts with other hikers and rangers, and will work their way out just later than scheduled.

Just saying exhaustion is not necessarily a SAR event.

[Don]

I had an awesome scout leader when I was a kid. He took us everywhere and we did everything, I still can't believe he brought us all back alive from all our trips. First night I spent in a snow cave was with my scout troop, first time I kayaked a river was with my scout troop, First time I ever backpacked for a week through the Uinta's was with my scout troop, first time I climbed Mount Olympus was with my scout troop.... thanks Mr. Winn. :2thumbs:

And just in case he reads this.... first time I hot wired a car and took it for a joy ride was with my scout troop, first time I made out with a chick was with my scout troop, first time I hookey bobbed was with my scout troop.... that's some of the stuff he never knew about. :haha:

Scouting was fun. :2thumbs:

Man, I was with you 'awesome scout leader'; 'first snow cave', 'first kayak', 'first backpack a week in the Uintas', and while not Olympus my first summit, Mt Timpanogos, was as a scout. You lost me with the hot wiring and making out, never did those in scouts, but then I'm right back with you on the first hooky bob! I had actually forgotten that phrase 'hooky bob'. Hilarious. :lol8:

[Mountaineer]

There are a lot of assumptions flying on this thread about the capabilities of these scouts and their leaders.

Agree with this, and what has been stated by others elsewhere. We don't know the circumstances. Most likely there was some inadequate planning. Nobody was seriously hurt or killed. Thus, most likely, some improved decisions were made later.

Would be great to get more detail from anyone who has knowledge of the circumstances. It benefits the community: on how to improve and help each other.

[Udink]

There are a lot of assumptions flying on this thread about the capabilities of these scouts and their leaders. In my opinion, The fact that they are a BSA group says nothing about either unless you are using a stereotype or know facts that have not been stated here. It also has little to do with whether the rescue was fully warranted or "wasted" as seems to be the opinion of some here. If exhaustion or getting in over your head does not warrant rescue, that would certainly eliminate a lot of SAR activity.
Aren't you also making assumptions by defending this group without knowing the facts? Hrmmm... :haha:

Sure, exhaustion and/or getting in over your head can be legitimate reasons for SAR, but legitimately needing rescue doesn't excuse one from legitimate criticism. They could (and should!) have known that Pandora's Box was beyond the abilities of some members of the group.

[Iceaxe]

I don't think it's much of an assumption to assume the group bit off more than they could chew.

Also not much of an assumption to anyone that has done the route to know that a large group of scouts are going to experience serious time issues with Pandora's Box.

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[hank moon]

There are a lot of assumptions flying on this thread about the capabilities of these scouts and their leaders. In my opinion, The fact that they are a BSA group says nothing about either unless you are using a stereotype or know facts that have not been stated here. It also has little to do with whether the rescue was fully warranted or "wasted" as seems to be the opinion of some here. If exhaustion or getting in over your head does not warrant rescue, that would certainly eliminate a lot of SAR activity.

Rescue can take many forms, from helicopter evac for life-threatening emergencies, to dropping off a pack of energy bars and water for those merely struggling. In this case, a helicopter was used for a (so far as we know) non life-threatening emergency, which to some may seem excessive.

So let's understand the question as relating to the form of the rescue, not the need.

[hank moon]

duplicate post deleted

[hesse15]

Rescue can take many forms, from helicopter evac for life-threatening emergencies, to dropping off a pack of energy bars and water for those merely struggling.
must be expensive power bars and water if require an elicopter (to move that big toy there cost at least 5k$)

[hank moon]

must be expensive power bars and water if require an elicopter (to move that big toy there cost at least 5k$)

hee hee. just a plain ol' person using gravity to drop a pack...

or maybe one of those new phone-piloted drones.

[Scott Card]

As to the story.....:facepalm1: I have taken many, many youth groups through slot canyons. Ice and others have made good points about not biting off more than you can chew, previewing canyons, etc. etc. I would add one more personal rule. I don't take youth groups into technical slot canyons that are under the age of 16. Finally, I limit the Dad factor. If they are not willing to train, swim test, practice with the boys, and follow the leaders instructions, they too are not welcome.

[accadacca]

This was posted to the bogley Facebook page: http://facebook.com/BogleyOutdoorCommunity

"All of the boys were 17 yrs. old, and all of them did Baptist Draw last year, plus another slot canyon in Zion, and all could have finished this hike. One leader that insisted on going could not finish and chose to send the others out to get help just for him. They were left with food and water and stuff to keep a fire going all night. The ones they stayed behind stayed to be with the leader that chose to not go on, which was a good otherwise he probably would have gotten hurt. Yes some mistakes were made, you can't predict everything that is going to happen in the outdoors, or with a group of scouts, and you can't even predict whether going to watch the Boston Marathon is a good idea, so thats why it is best not to judge anyone or anything, although we are all untitled to our opinions."

[Spidey]

What a bunch of CRAP. Seems almost everyone on this thread is real quick to throw these leaders and scouts under the bus, while giving the dumb asses in Constrychnine a pass. Both groups required expensive rescue's for avoidable problems. Brought on by poor leadership, planning, judgement etc etc.

As for Pandora's box being more than scout's can handle, Rubbish. If we apply the same logic, someone from the group in Constrychnine had to be rescued, therefore non of them belong in there.

I've taken scouts through, Choprock, Heaps, Imlay, multiple Powell canyons, multiple North wash canyons etc. All the while being told it couldn't be done.

Now was this specific group in over their heads? It looks that way, but it seems as though most are making blanket statements in this thread about scouts in general. While I just finished reading the other accident report from the weekend, and didn't see anyone criticizing the group at large for their EPIC FAIL. Perhaps I need to reread both threads.

[Scott P]

I've taken scouts through, Choprock, Heaps, Imlay, multiple Powell canyons, multiple North wash canyons etc. All the while being told it couldn't be done.

Having been a scout leader for a long time, there are several scouts I would take to places like that (in fact I'd take my own kids whom are younger than boy scouts on several of those). There are also several scouts that I would not take to those places. Therefore, personally I don't think it be a scout friendly trip and I wouldn't make it an official scout activity. It would just be a friendly gathering that just happens to include a few young friends along that just happen to be boy scouts. Of course opinions may vary.

[toshkya]

I can't wait for the BSA to allow the gays in. Then the hate promoting Mormon church will be out of the scouting business. Then we wont have to have all these loud, annoying, rude leaders with a bunch of kids they can't control in are mountains anymore. Come on gays get in that scouting! And yes, I've had some bad run ins with the scouts and there clueless leaders.

[Spidey]

Having been a scout leader for a long time, there are several scouts I would take to places like that (in fact I'd take my own kids whom are younger than boy scouts on several of those). There are also several scouts that I would not take to those places. Therefore, personally I don't think it be a scout friendly trip and I wouldn't make it an official scout activity. It would just be a friendly gathering that just happens to include a few young friends along that just happen to be boy scouts. Of course opinions may vary.


Agreed.

[rlasson]

While I understand your point, I believe that even if the LDS church drops out of BSA, then it really won't change the number of wards taking youth groups outdoor adventures like they have in the past. It could even make those wards less prepared as they wouldn't have the guidelines and training that BSA provides (though I'd admit that currently the enforcement of those guidelines/policies is inadequate.)

While I've done a significant amount of training to be qualified to take BSA groups out canyoneering, I've been astonished by some of the lack of preparation and training that I've seen from other BSA troops I've seen along the way. Unfortunately, one of those groups had an accident where a boy fell and was seriously injured. I would never send my son on a BSA activity without knowing that the leaders were appropriately trained and could be trusted.


I can't wait for the BSA to allow the gays in. Then the hate promoting Mormon church will be out of the scouting business. Then we wont have to have all these loud, annoying, rude leaders with a bunch of kids they can't control in are mountains anymore. Come on gays get in that scouting! And yes, I've had some bad run ins with the scouts and there clueless leaders.

[Kuya]

What a bunch of CRAP. Seems almost everyone on this thread is real quick to throw these leaders and scouts under the bus, ....

As for Pandora's box being more than scout's can handle, Rubbish. ....

I've taken scouts through, Choprock, Heaps, Imlay, multiple Powell canyons, multiple North wash canyons etc. All the while being told it couldn't be done.

Now was this specific group in over their heads? It looks that way, but it seems as though most are making blanket statements in this thread about scouts in general. ....

1st I am only throwing the Scout Leaders under the "Bus" :haha:. It is pretty obvious that they misjudged the canyon. I am so glad that everyone escaped safely, BUT I don't feel it out-of-bounds to pass a little judgement. First and foremost, it helps me learn from their mistakes so I don't do something similar in the future. Judgment will be passed, I just hope that more facts come to the surface so we can make a more accurate judgement.

2nd is it really "rubbish" to claim that Pandoras box was over their heads? obviously it was, and probably is for a lot of scout groups. on the other hand, if a venture crew wanted to do somthing like that, I don't see it being a problem, AS LONG AS they have a competent leader guiding them. Where this rescue gets tricky is determining the competency of the leader. Had they done the canyon before? what was their experience hiking "longer" canyons? Hiking canyons like Baptist Draw are much different than canyons like Pandoras box IMO.

all in all, I just hope this doesn't make things more complicated for us in the UNPC to take our scouts out canyoneering. It is already a big enough mess with way too many hoops to jump through.

[Kuya]

While I understand your point, I believe that even if the LDS church drops out of BSA, then it really won't change the number of wards taking youth groups outdoor adventures like they have in the past. It could even make those wards less prepared as they wouldn't have the guidelines and training that BSA provides (though I'd admit that currently the enforcement of those guidelines/policies is inadequate.)

While I've done a significant amount of training to be qualified to take BSA groups out canyoneering, I've been astonished by some of the lack of preparation and training that I've seen from other BSA troops I've seen along the way. Unfortunately, one of those groups had an accident where a boy fell and was seriously injured. I would never send my son on a BSA activity without knowing that the leaders were appropriately trained and could be trusted.

ditto :2thumbs:

[accadacca]

1st I am only throwing the Scout Leaders under the "Bus" :haha:. It is pretty obvious that they misjudged the canyon. I am so glad that everyone escaped safely, BUT I don't feel it out-of-bounds to pass a little judgement. First and foremost, it helps me learn from their mistakes so I don't do something similar in the future. Judgment will be passed, I just hope that more facts come to the surface so we can make a more accurate judgement.

2nd is it really "rubbish" to claim that Pandoras box was over their heads? obviously it was, and probably is for a lot of scout groups. on the other hand, if a venture crew wanted to do somthing like that, I don't see it being a problem, AS LONG AS they have a competent leader guiding them. Where this rescue gets tricky is determining the competency of the leader. Had they done the canyon before? what was their experience hiking "longer" canyons? Hiking canyons like Baptist Draw are much different than canyons like Pandoras box IMO.

all in all, I just hope this doesn't make things more complicated for us in the UNPC to take our scouts out canyoneering. It is already a big enough mess with way too many hoops to jump through.

Just in case you missed it. Seems like someone in the know... :ne_nau:


This was posted to the bogley Facebook page: http://facebook.com/BogleyOutdoorCommunity

"All of the boys were 17 yrs. old, and all of them did Baptist Draw last year, plus another slot canyon in Zion, and all could have finished this hike. One leader that insisted on going could not finish and chose to send the others out to get help just for him. They were left with food and water and stuff to keep a fire going all night. The ones they stayed behind stayed to be with the leader that chose to not go on, which was a good otherwise he probably would have gotten hurt. Yes some mistakes were made, you can't predict everything that is going to happen in the outdoors, or with a group of scouts, and you can't even predict whether going to watch the Boston Marathon is a good idea, so thats why it is best not to judge anyone or anything, although we are all untitled to our opinions."

[Absolute Gravity]

I can't wait for the BSA to allow the gays in. Then the hate promoting Mormon church will be out of the scouting business. Then we wont have to have all these loud, annoying, rude leaders with a bunch of kids they can't control in are mountains anymore. Come on gays get in that scouting! And yes, I've had some bad run ins with the scouts and there clueless leaders.

Someone forgot their morning coffee.:crazy:

[Iceaxe]

What a bunch of CRAP. Seems almost everyone on this thread is real quick to throw these leaders and scouts under the bus,

I believe this is more of a "we reap what we sow" type of deal.... I have had some very positive experience with scouts and meet some amazing leaders and scout troops. I've also had numerous bad experiences with scout troops causing all sorts of havoc and destruction. I believe most will agree, the scouts have earned their reputation.

IMHO, If scouting wants to improve it's image something must be done to raise the bottom feeders up to at least a level of mediocrity.

YMMV

[Scott Card]

I can't wait for the BSA to allow the gays in. Then the hate promoting Mormon church will be out of the scouting business. Then we wont have to have all these loud, annoying, rude leaders with a bunch of kids they can't control in are mountains anymore. Come on gays get in that scouting! And yes, I've had some bad run ins with the scouts and there clueless leaders. :roll: :facepalm1:

[jman]

I can't wait for the BSA to allow the gays in. Then the hate promoting Mormon church will be out of the scouting business. Then we wont have to have all these loud, annoying, rude leaders with a bunch of kids they can't control in are mountains anymore. Come on gays get in that scouting! And yes, I've had some bad run ins with the scouts and there clueless leaders.

Nice, and you sound like the competent, TOLERANT leader that the BSA is looking for (especially being tolerant of us hate-promoting LDS leaders).

[Iceaxe]

Nice, and you sound like the competent, TOLERANT leader that the BSA is looking for.

BAZINGA!!!

:lol8:

[Spidey]

I believe this is more of a "we reap what we sow" type of deal.... I have had some very positive experience with scouts and meet some amazing leaders and scout troops. I've also had numerous bad experiences with scout troops causing all sorts of havoc and destruction. I believe most will agree, the scouts have earned their reputation.

IMHO, If scouting wants to improve it's image something must be done to raise the bottom feeders up to at least a level of mediocrity.

YMMV

Agreed. My main point was regarding the disparity in tone from the other rescue thread, and the broad strokes that were being used to paint all scouts.

I stand by my statement that the difference in attitude between the 2 threads is a bunch of crap. Both groups showed gross levels of incompetence to arrive at their respective situations. If the scouts and leaders are to be trashed and belittled, then so should the group in Constrychnine.

[hesse15]

What a bunch of CRAP. Seems almost everyone on this thread is real quick to throw these leaders and scouts under the bus, while giving the dumb asses in Constrychnine a pass. Both groups required expensive rescue's for avoidable problems. Brought on by poor leadership, planning, judgement etc etc.

anyone criticizing the group at large for their EPIC FAIL. Perhaps I need to reread both threads.

just for information The person that fell in costrichnine is a CERTIFIED BSA CANYON LEADER!!!!!!
and he had already a lot of mishap with the troop,but for him was just good memories to share.........did not see that as mistakes!!!!

your skills are above 99% of the canyoneering out there.
Pretty sure you can do a full family reunion in Choprock if you want!!!!! including old auntes and grandmas.......just carrying them on your shoulders!:stud:

[Brian in SLC]

I stand by my statement that the difference in attitude between the 2 threads is a bunch of crap. Both groups showed gross levels of incompetence to arrive at their respective situations. If the scouts and leaders are to be trashed and belittled, then so should the group in Constrychnine.

There's major differences in both situations, though. We know a fair bit about what happened in Constrychnine. On this Pandora's Box situation, you yourself have mentioned that it appears they were over their heads.

I think if we knew more details, then, my guess it we could trash and belittle them even more...(ha ha).

Sure, there's superstar scout masters who hand pick strong scouts and adult leaders to do amazinging hard stuff. But...that didn't appear to be the case here.

That you see the differences as a "bunch of crap" is interesting. I think some of the BSA bashing is unwarrented, but, as a whole, they do bring some of this on themselves, which, leads to speculation about what happened.

I think its great that folks get out, have fun, introduce kids to these kinds of activities and every once in awhile there'll be mistakes made. My bet is that group learned a whole lot more about "stuff" than just easily completing a canyon...life lessons...and, really, no harm no foul.

However, had the SAR folks had an accident (helicopter crash comes to mind), then, this would be gettin' a bunch more heat.

Let's have the full story, or, at least a better version than the one posted to the FB page. We need more fodder!

Cheers and be safe out there!

[ratagonia]

There's major differences in both situations, though. We know a fair bit about what happened in Constrychnine. On this Pandora's Box situation, you yourself have mentioned that it appears they were over their heads.

I think if we knew more details, then, my guess it we could trash and belittle them even more...(ha ha).

Sure, there's superstar scout masters who hand pick strong scouts and adult leaders to do amazinging hard stuff. But...that didn't appear to be the case here.

That you see the differences as a "bunch of crap" is interesting. I think some of the BSA bashing is unwarrented, but, as a whole, they do bring some of this on themselves, which, leads to speculation about what happened.

I think its great that folks get out, have fun, introduce kids to these kinds of activities and every once in awhile there'll be mistakes made. My bet is that group learned a whole lot more about "stuff" than just easily completing a canyon...life lessons...and, really, no harm no foul.

However, had the SAR folks had an accident (helicopter crash comes to mind), then, this would be gettin' a bunch more heat.

Let's have the full story, or, at least a better version than the one posted to the FB page. We need more fodder!

Cheers and be safe out there!

With more thorough preparation, the Manti Scout Leaders could have used the 3rd class escape route that starts fairly close to where they spent the night. OR, the exiting scouts could have come around the next morning and dropped a rope to them to jug out on, from the top of the South Fork. Self-Rescue - always honorable.

There are many other ways this could have ended. Hauling them out by helicopter is not among the worst.

Just as in Constrychnine, THIS group (and THAT group) was (de facto) over their heads, beyond their skill set. At least the Manti scouts got over their heads in a reasonably difficult canyon, rather than the knucklehead in the beginner canyon Constrychnine, who made a beginner mistake. That he was the "leader" of the group is amazing. I am happy that his incompetence did not also break Rule #2.

:moses:

[Spidey]

There's major differences in both situations, though. We know a fair bit about what happened in Constrychnine. On this Pandora's Box situation, you yourself have mentioned that it appears they were over their heads.

I think if we knew more details, then, my guess it we could trash and belittle them even more...(ha ha).

Sure, there's superstar scout masters who hand pick strong scouts and adult leaders to do amazinging hard stuff. But...that didn't appear to be the case here.

That you see the differences as a "bunch of crap" is interesting. I think some of the BSA bashing is unwarrented, but, as a whole, they do bring some of this on themselves, which, leads to speculation about what happened.

I think its great that folks get out, have fun, introduce kids to these kinds of activities and every once in awhile there'll be mistakes made. My bet is that group learned a whole lot more about "stuff" than just easily completing a canyon...life lessons...and, really, no harm no foul.

However, had the SAR folks had an accident (helicopter crash comes to mind), then, this would be gettin' a bunch more heat.

Let's have the full story, or, at least a better version than the one posted to the FB page. We need more fodder!

Cheers and be safe out there!


While I greatly respect your opinion Brian. I disagree with you on the claim that there are major differences. In the details sure, but in the grand scheme of things we have 2 incidents requiring rescue that were entirely avoidable. Both of which put SAR personnel at risk. Once we establish that both were entirely avoidable the differences in the details become irrelevant IMO.


Both of which are being discussed here, with glaringly different tones. That is the real difference. Again IMO

[ratagonia]

Both of which are being discussed here, with glaringly different tones. That is the real difference. Again IMO

I think the difference in tone is due to, that in one, the fellow who made the mistake got seriously hurt. There is a reluctance by some to speak poorly of those in the hospital, no matter how incompetent they were.

Tom

[oldno7]

Both of which are being discussed here, with glaringly different tones. That is the real difference. Again IMO

Dang Steve, have you not been reading Christina's account of Constrychnine?

I trust her eye and judgement.

So we once again arrive at a point were we have beginners, leading beginners, in easy canyons and getting hurt(Constrychnine incident)

Seems folks get 8-10 easy canyons under their belt and go to Amazon and purchase a Superman suit, only to find out it has no powers.

No one can escape every canyon without scars, the canyons will catch up, and quickly to those with no respect or training for canyons.

[Spidey]

I think the difference in tone is due to, that in one, the fellow who made the mistake got seriously hurt. There is a reluctance by some to speak poorly of those in the hospital, no matter how incompetent they were.

Tom

Very true Tom good point.

[unimog]

Seems to me that most climbing/canyoneering accidents are "entirely avoidable" when analyzed with hindsight.

[Scott P]

I think the difference in tone is due to, that in one, the fellow who made the mistake got seriously hurt. There is a reluctance by some to speak poorly of those in the hospital, no matter how incompetent they were.

Another difference might be that some involved in the Constrychnine accident are members of canyoneering forums. For many, it's easier to hold your tongue if you know they might be reading your post. Easier to bash a group you don't know (know either in person or on forums).

[DOSS]

Seems to me that most climbing/canyoneering accidents are "entirely avoidable" when analyzed with hindsight.

And this is why the climbing/canyoneering communities want as much detail as possible about each incident, over and beyond morbid curiosity I want to know how others screwed up so that I can avoid doing such in the future.

[hesse15]

I think the difference in tone is due to, that in one, the fellow who made the mistake got seriously hurt. There is a reluctance by some to speak poorly of those in the hospital, no matter how incompetent they were.

Tom

by the way update on the injured person, he is at home and need to rest broken hips and broken ankle but at least they are aligned so no need for surjery, he is in good spirit and his kids are helping him ( he lives alone) ,enough good spirit that he allowed me to criticize him badly......and he admitted I was wright!!!!!!!:nono::soapbox:
probably the effect of the drugs
that fella is tough, he just need to be little less playful sometime!!!

[Absolute Gravity]

enough good spirit that he allowed me to criticize him badly......and he admitted I was wright!

I'm betting you can deliver one hell of an ass chewing. :angryfire:

[Mountaineer]

by the way update on the injured person, he is at home and need to rest broken hips and broken ankle but at least they are aligned so no need for surjery, he is in good spirit and his kids are helping him

All glad he is OK and doing well.

[hesse15]

I'm betting you can deliver one hell of an ass chewing. :angryfire:

yep!!!!
do not super like when somebody i know almost kill himself!!!!!!!

[Kuya]

I'm betting you can deliver one hell of an ass chewing. :angryfire:

X2 especially since I feel like she is yelling at everyone in all of her posts. Kinda makes me feel like she is always yelling all the time :gloom:maybe it is the excessive use of the exclamation point? idk :ne_nau: remind me to never get on your bad side Hesse15 LOL

[hesse15]

X2 especially since I feel like she is yelling at everyone in all of her posts. Kinda makes me feel like she is always yelling all the time :gloom:maybe it is the excessive use of the exclamation point? idk :ne_nau: remind me to never get on your bad side Hesse15 LOL
when you are on my good side I am the sweetest canyonette around!!!!!:bootyshake: :nod: :cool2: :popcorn:

usually people doing unsafe practices in canyons they get in the black list!!!!

I do not like when a super fun activity turn deadly!!!!:nono:

[Iceaxe]

X2 especially since I feel like she is yelling at everyone in all of her posts.

For those playing along at home who don't know Hesse, English is her second language. I've noticed this sometimes makes her writing seem very direct, but a nicer person you will never meet.



Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[Slot Machine]

Kinda makes me feel like she is always yelling all the time

She's not yelling, she's Italian!

:haha::lol8::haha::lol8:

Bob!

[penmartens]

I would like to point out that 'victims' who have alerted the sheriff of a need for help often do not get to choose what level of assistance they will receive.
It is entirely the sheriff's call as to how he can/ should use the resources available to him. Time and effort to get to the 'victim' as well as time and effort to get out of the canyon and to medical care (if needed), weather, and availability of SAR personnel are some of the variables to consider. Often it is the case that a helicopter is the quickest and easiest way to resolve an 'emergency'. It is the Sheriff's call.

[hesse15]

X2 especially since I feel like she is yelling at everyone in all of her posts.

Just to point is not always the case
<<<<Christina teaches me step by step, a lot of the impossible became possible, became familiar, became fun, and became something we hope for, Thanks Christina!! Amazing tight slot canyons finally welcome us! Pictures are worth a thousand words>>>
Rambler magazine May2013 page20-23
http://www.wasatchmountainclub.org/rambler/archive/may2013.pdf

:bootyshake::2thumbs::popcorn::stud::clap::ride::w ink::hippy::cheers::rockit::five::roll_lol::banana ::banana::party:

[Iceaxe]

A little more information is in the NPS Morning Report.

Capitol Reef National Park (UT)
Stranded Scouts Rescued From Slot Canyon

During the early morning hours of Sunday, April 21st, rangers and Wayne County Sheriff's Department officers responded to a call of stranded canyoneers in the Pandora's Box slot canyon. The group, consisting of nine Boy Scouts and leaders from Manti, Utah, dropped into the canyon at noon on Saturday. After completing about half of the canyon route, they concluded that one member was too exhausted to continue and that another member was too large to squeeze through the narrow slot sections ahead. Five of nine members of the party were able to complete the route, but had taken the group’s ropes and other equipment to do so. At daylight on Sunday, the Wayne County Search and Rescue Team was flown to the rim using a Utah Department of Public Safety helicopter. Once there, they raised each member of the stranded group 300 feet to the canyon rim. Unhurt, the rescued individuals were flown out of the backcountry. Pandora's Box is widely considered to be one of the more difficult canyoneering routes on the Colorado Plateau. The incident was managed jointly with the country sheriff’s department.
[Submitted by Scott Brown, Chief Ranger]

[Absolute Gravity]

dropped into the canyon at noon on Saturday

Haven't done the canyon yet, but this is quite the late start, no?

[Iceaxe]

Haven't done the canyon yet, but this is quite the late start, no?

Yup, assuming the report is accurate this trip was doomed to failure from the start. I suggest first timers be hiking at first light, which this time of year means no later than 6:30 am, and you should be dropping into the slot about 8:30 at the latest.

Expect 10 hours for a small group of very experianced canyoneers, time goes up exponentually from there with group size, errors in navigation and lack of skills.