Yo-yo ascent on a Canyon Fire 8.3mm?

[Raz]

I recently did the Potholes Fork of Warm Springs Canyon by fixing a 200m 10.4mm dynamic rope near the end and then descending the canyon using my 8.3mm canyon fire. At the end I ascended the fixed rope using two Bachmann's. Ascending almost 200' of dynamic rope on friction hitches left something to be desired and I started thinking about purchasing a yo-yo (RADS) setup but quickly realized that most auto-locking belay devices aren't designed for a rope as narrow as the canyon fire. Is there an auto-locking belay device that can be used in this capacity? I want to: 1. ascend fixed lines in canyoneering and; 2. use as a belay device for lead climbing. One option, I believe, would be to use an Ascension, a Pro Traxion and a Micro pulley, but is this the ideal setup and has anyone tried it? Could the RollNLock be used in place of the Pro Traxion? Or does anyone have experience with the grigri (the device I originally planned to buy) on the canyon fire?

[SRG]

Nice job on the Warm Springs descent man. How was it? Any chance we can get a trip report?

I had a similar experience this fall with ascending large rappels using a Bachmann hitch and a Tibloc and it sucked. I can't imagine how taxing it must have been using two Bachmanns.
Our group ascended three rappels and afterwards we had core shots in three of our five loops of 6mm nylon accessory cord. This may have been caused by us not breaking the knot each time we slid it up the rope? We were ascending fast which may have been a contributing factor? Either way it was scary.

Just bought a Basic and a Micro Traxion which I plan to use with an Oscillante pulley for this same setup, haven't tested it yet, I'll post when I do. The Basic and Micro Traxion work with 8mm ropes according to Petzl. The MT isn't a belay device and it adds a step to convert to descent, but it's not too difficult and well worth it in my opinion cause it is light and can be used for all sorts of stuff including hauling and rope soloing... awesome!

Maybe you could use an ATC guide in auto-locking mode for the waist attachment point?

[Brian in SLC]

I've used a handled ascender and an older mini traxion for a "rads" ascent on a number of fixed ropes. Worked well.

I prefer a Gri Gri as I really like that convert to lower if need be. But, yeah, on slick, skinny ropes...might slip. Newer Grigri2 is supposed to work down to 8.9mm so...maybe it'd kinda work on an 8.3? I used the old Gri Gri on an 8.9 without much if any slippage, but, probably varies from rope to rope.

[ratagonia]

I recently did the Potholes Fork of Warm Springs Canyon by fixing a 200m 10.4mm dynamic rope near the end and then descending the canyon using my 8.3mm canyon fire. At the end I ascended the fixed rope using two Bachmann's. Ascending almost 200' of dynamic rope on friction hitches left something to be desired and I started thinking about purchasing a yo-yo (RADS) setup but quickly realized that most auto-locking belay devices aren't designed for a rope as narrow as the canyon fire. Is there an auto-locking belay device that can be used in this capacity? I want to: 1. ascend fixed lines in canyoneering and; 2. use as a belay device for lead climbing. One option, I believe, would be to use an Ascension, a Pro Traxion and a Micro pulley, but is this the ideal setup and has anyone tried it? Could the RollNLock be used in place of the Pro Traxion? Or does anyone have experience with the grigri (the device I originally planned to buy) on the canyon fire?

Interesting.

First, let's set the record straight. The name of the canyon is Tinitus. As you will note in his notes, Mr. Kelsey (the Proud Anti-Semite) did not actually descend the canyon, and it is somewhat surprising that he wishes to re-name the canyon after NOT doing it. Tacky. Especially since he consulted with Mr. Ramras before publishing. However, my friend Mr. Ramras is at somewhat of a disadvantage in that the canyon was in Show Not Tell status, so waddayagonnado?

Mr Kelsoy is somewhat lose with the spelling, having misspelled my friend Ram's name but, HEY, spelling is not a respected art in the pretty grate state of Utah.

No bolts are needed in this canyon - it has been descended many times "as God made it". Please do not add bolts to this canyon. If you are not up for it, go do a different canyon.

But to address your specific question:

I think the Micro-Traxion is the brilliant tool. Works great as the harness-device. Would also work well as the upper rope-grab. I have to caution against using an ATC-Guide in auto-locking mode - this type of mechanism requires a certain range of flexibility in the rope which makes it's reasonable use unreliable. Sounds like you are interested in using rope-climbing specific devices, and the Micro-Traxion is the best I have ever seen. (As my standard in-canyon contingency setup, I carry a Micro-Traxion and a Tibloc, and it gets the job done. If I was planning on ascending, I would use one Petal Ascender and one Micro-Traxion.)

Semi-self-locking belay devices work well as semi-self-locking belay devices, but are not so hot for ascending. Since I don't sport climb any more, I have little experience with trying to jug with them, but would have to advise against. As noted, they are perhaps unreliable on a small-diameter rope.

Jugging up through the hole in Tinitus is going to be difficult even in the BEST of circumstances, and is going to tear up your foot loops as you noted, no matter what. A cost of doing business.

Tom :moses:

[Iceaxe]

Interesting.

First, let's set the record straight. The name of the canyon is Tinitus. As you will note in his notes, Mr. Kelsey (the Proud Anti-Semite) did not actually descend the canyon, and it is somewhat surprising that he wishes to re-name the canyon after NOT doing it. Tacky.

Right or wrong, it has been my experience that whomever first publicly betas a route to the masses is the one that actually gets to name it.... or at least that is the name that generally sticks and is used.

But speaking of tacky... I'd put whining that your secret name was not used for the secret canyon you never told anyone about to being on equally tacky footing with naming a route you have never done.

YMMV


Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[ratagonia]

Right or wrong, it has been my experience that whomever first publicly betas a route to the masses is the one that actually gets to name it.... or at least that is the name that generally sticks and is used.

But speaking of tacky... I'd put whining that your secret name was not used for the secret canyon you never told anyone about to being on equally tacky footing with naming a route you have never done.

YMMV

Names were shared with Mr. K before he published, but of course, the Proud Anti-Semite had no use for those "silly names".

The standard in climbing has always been that one does not get to name a route until one actually gets it done. I had thought the same ethic applied to canyons, but then again, Mr. K is not exactly within anyone else's 'ethic'.

Tom

[Bootboy]

I use a gri gri and a handled ascender for ascending single rope in tree work. But I usually carry a tibloc and a vt and a micro pulley to tend it, in the canyons, as this setup is the same in principle in the canyons at a fraction of the weight. I carry the light stuff with no plan of actually using it, just for a SHTF emergency scenario.
That said, if I actually went into a canyon with the intention of jugging out, I'd carry the extra weight of the ascender, a gri gri, and a micro pulley. The function is worth the weight.

I've played with the gri gri on the canyon fire. It worked fine in normal circumstances but I can't account for any unforeseen variables. If I were using a grigri, I'd have two other attachments to the rope. I'd hate to have an unreliable grigri leave me hanging by one cammed ascender. Thats just my SAR experience talking though. If its a rope you know you'll be jugging, maybe size up to the canyonero, a little more meat for your device to get ahold of and a corresponding gain in safety margins.

Get some of the gear and start experimenting to find what works for you and what you're comfortable with.

[canyoncaver]

Sounds like you are interested in using rope-climbing specific devices, and the Micro-Traxion is the best I have ever seen.

Actually much better is a croll for the chest or "harness" ascender, if you are planning on ascending. The advantage is that you do not have to pull rope up from the bottom of the device like you do with a ropeman or traxion. If I was planning on ascending 200', I would wear a croll instead of a pulley device. Trust me, it will be much less work and much more enjoyable. I would also use a static rope. If you're doing a pull-down, then I understand just bringing some prusiks or micro-traxions for contingency. But if you KNOW you will be ascending, just bring appropriate gear and it doesn't have to be such a hassle or even very "taxing" at all.

You would do well to check out some caving SRT climbing systems. Almost every possible configuration has been tried and most people have settled on a few standard setups. Most useful for canyoneering is the Frog system. http://technology.darkfrontier.us/Vertical/Frog/ (http://technology.darkfrontier.us/Vertical/Frog/)

No need to re-invent the wheel here or use sub-standard gear, unless you just get off on making things harder than they need to be...

[edsbay]

I just purchased a ropeman and am trying to figure out the big difference betwen this and the micro traxion? I'm on the intermediate side of ascending and really just trying to learn different options and setups. Thanks in advance.

[Brian in SLC]

Actually much better is a croll for the chest or "harness" ascender, if you are planning on ascending. ...You would do well to check out some caving SRT climbing systems. Almost every possible configuration has been tried and most people have settled on a few standard setups. Most useful for canyoneering is the Frog system. http://technology.darkfrontier.us/Vertical/Frog/

No need to re-invent the wheel here or use sub-standard gear, unless you just get off on making things harder than they need to be...

Some folks prefer ascending on the RADS system. More personal preference than sub-standard. Also, with a GriGri, easy to convert to lower.

I have no doubt for the standard, straight up vertical ascent of a rope, a frog system is quicker and more efficient.

[canyoncaver]

Some folks prefer ascending on the RADS system. More personal preference than sub-standard. Also, with a GriGri, easy to convert to lower.

I was only trying to say that I feel that pulley devices provide sub-standard climbing efficiency when compared to a traditional chest ascender like a croll. Thanks for the opportunity to clarify.


I have no doubt for the standard, straight up vertical ascent of a rope, a frog system is quicker and more efficient.

Yes. :iagree: This was the point I was trying to make.

[Brian in SLC]

I know folks who've playing with ascending systems really like the "frog". I've used a standard two handled ascenders type climbing rig for years on especially walls, and, Texas kick for crevasse rescue type stuff.

I've been using mostly a grigri for ascending for quite a number of years now. I went to it initially as I had a bit of biceps tendonitis, and, the redirect throught the upper ascender makes pulling the rope down sweet and much less stress. I just find it a much more relaxing way to ascend a rope.

If you surf through the Petzl site, you can see they've accepted what was initially an off label use of the grigri as a descender. They also have a bit on using it as an ascender as well:

http://www.petzl.com/us/outdoor/grigri-product-experience

Might have been initially developed as an ascender by arborists? Some tree guys really like the "Yo yo" or RADS system.

I think the RADS systems excells in a couple of areas: wandering rope climbing and beginners.

When you have fixed ropes that wander side to side through either steep to less steep terrain, and/or multiple re-direct or anchor points, its super easy with a RADS sytem to pass anchors and to self belay up lower angle terrain.

With beginners, its a pretty intuitive system that's easy to teach and use. Progress capture at the waist that can also be converted to descent is super nice.

Anyhoo, that's my plug for the RADS system. If I did a ton of ascending pit drop type fixed ropes, or, straight up smooth vertical walls, I'd consider a frog system. But, especially most climbers have a grigri or the like already, and, adding a top ascender whether a Prusik or handled ascender is easy and affordable.

I rappel on a Grigri a ton. Really nice to be able to easily start and stop. Almost surprising given how popular descending a single rope has become with canyoneering, that, more folks don't use a grigri for some of that work. Especially on long drops with some lookin' around for anchors or messing with tangled ropes.

Have a Grigri2, but, haven't used it yet. Looks sweet.

[ratagonia]

I just purchased a ropeman and am trying to figure out the big difference betwen this and the micro traxion? I'm on the intermediate side of ascending and really just trying to learn different options and setups. Thanks in advance.

The MicroTraxion is also a pulley, so it works by itself as a progress capture/redirect device.

Tom

[hank moon]

Agree with Kuenn:

If you plan to ascend a good distance, have a good system (e.g. FROG). The new Petzl Croll and Basic are amazingly light. Ascending done poorly can consume a lot of energy - do it right!

For std. emergency ascent kit, I usually carry Tiblocs.

[Raz]

Sorry about the late reply, I wrote this a long time ago and for some reason didn't get it posted. I haven't bought anything yet and we're headed back to north wash in 10 days, so it still applies:

The descent was very challenging SRG, thanks for asking. It tested all of my skills, especially when I threw the rope too far and got it stuck on a chokestone on the rappel through the hole. For the Bachmanns I used 6mm chord with a very tight sheath and took my time - about 30 minutes - and they are fine to use again IMO. Why use the oscillante instead of the micro pulley? It might find occasional use in ziplining, btw... and why the basic over the ascension? Thanks for the input on the grigri Brian and Bootboy, I am going to buy one for climbing and if it works reliably on the canyon fire then that is a bonus.

Thanks for chiming in Tom. Tinitus, got it. So I'll get a micro traxion for sure, and I'm assuming you meant a Petzl Ascender for the upper rope-grab, but which one? If you were planning to ascend would you use an ascension? And left or right? For the record I jugged up after the hole as Kelsey suggests, I only ascended the hole a short distance to free my stuck rope.

Canyoncaver, thank you for the frog link, I'll check that out. Do I need to wear a chest harness for that? How should the croll be attached to my waist harness?

[canyoncaver]

Canyoncaver, thank you for the frog link, I'll check that out. Do I need to wear a chest harness for that? How should the croll be attached to my waist harness?

The croll is designed to attach to a half-round (D-ring) maillion on the seat harness. Most caving harnesses use a D-ring as the main point of attachment. If you have a climbing harness, you would need to add a link between the belay loop and croll for the croll to be positioned properly against your body. There are many styles of chest harness but for the frog it is basically just a piece of webbing. A frog chest harness is not weight bearing, and only serves to pull the croll up the rope as you stand in the footloop. No need to buy a fancy chest harness, you can purchase the commercially made ones for less than $20, or just make one up out of webbing.

[airman]

I like the system identified in illustration 9 of the Petzl Micro Traxion Technical Notice. (http://www.petzl.com/files/all/technical-notice/both/P53_MICROTRAXION.pdf) I use a Ropeman II instead of a Tibloc for my upper ascender.

It took me awhile to get the correct length for the foot loop. Here is what I figured out. First connect the Micro Traxion to your belay loop as illustrated in the Tech Notice. Then slide the Micro Traxion up the rope as far as you can while keeping your feet on the ground. Next, attach your upper ascender about two inches above the Micro Traxion. Now attach your foot loop to your foot, then to the upper ascender with no slack between the two when you stand up straight. That should give you the correct length for your foot loop. Be sure to include a tether between your harness and the upper ascender as shown in the Tech Notice.

I like to use foot loops for both feet when doing long or tricky ascents. I also like to use a modified Purcell Prusik for my foot loop(s), which allows me to cinch the foot loop to my foot so it won't slide off.

YMMV. Try different systems in a safe environment. It is best to have someone with experience show you this stuff. Take a class. Be safe!!!

[Brian in SLC]

Nice!

65061

I still like the re-direct from the micro to the upper ascender for the pull down, instead of out/up. DMM revolver...

Edit to add: got a chance to see a micro traxion in action (ha ha) last weekend. Bye bye mini traxion...that's a nice rig!

[SRG]

Hey Raz,
Sounds intense, glad you got out okay.


Why use the oscillante instead of the micro pulley?
Honestly I just bought the Oscillante because it was inexpensive.


why the basic over the ascension?
I was sold on the Basic because it's light and small. It'll mostly be in my pack for emergencies so I think the ascension would be more bulk than I want.

I tried out the setup last weekend and I like it a lot. It felt smooth and it didn't suck the energy out of me... which is a big improvement over my past ascending experiences.
I found the redirect off of a pulley on the upper ascender to be overkill. I think I prefer to rig the setup the way the climber in the picture above has it rigged.


There are many styles of chest harness but for the frog it is basically just a piece of webbing. A frog chest harness is not weight bearing, and only serves to pull the croll up the rope as you stand in the footloop.
A neat thing about the Micro Traxion is that once you have the weight of 10-15ft of rope(8.3 Canyon Fire) below it, it just slides up the rope on its own.

-Sam

[Raz]

Thanks for all of the input. It sounds like this system, the micro traxion and a tibloc, is the ideal lightweight system. I went with the ascension, basic, and grigri for versatility and because, apparently, I wanted to blow some money. It seems to work great so far, though I haven't jammed it up with sand or gotten wet yet (I'll be trying not to.)


Hey Raz,
Sounds intense, glad you got out okay.


Honestly I just bought the Oscillante because it was inexpensive.


I was sold on the Basic because it's light and small. It'll mostly be in my pack for emergencies so I think the ascension would be more bulk than I want.

I tried out the setup last weekend and I like it a lot. It felt smooth and it didn't suck the energy out of me... which is a big improvement over my past ascending experiences.
I found the redirect off of a pulley on the upper ascender to be overkill. I think I prefer to rig the setup the way the climber in the picture above has it rigged.


A neat thing about the Micro Traxion is that once you have the weight of 10-15ft of rope(8.3 Canyon Fire) below it, it just slides up the rope on its own.

-Sam

[edsbay]

I have only used the Croll while ascending with a chest harness in a caving situation coming out. I guess I don't know/or understand how or if I can attach it to a regular canyon harness? I really liked the Croll but just don't have the knowlege as of yet. My typical ascending set up is a ropeman 2 and prusik.

[qedcook]

Names were shared with Mr. K before he published, but of course, the Proud Anti-Semite had no use for those "silly names".

The standard in climbing has always been that one does not get to name a route until one actually gets it done. I had thought the same ethic applied to canyons, but then again, Mr. K is not exactly within anyone else's 'ethic'.

Tom

Give it up, Tom. Hating on a hater is just as bad as hating. Hating an anti-semite is no way to solve problems and makes you just as bad as him. His naming convention is much preferable to yours because it prevents confusion and does not try to hide its location. Just like Iceaxe said, you're trying to be eletist. Couldn't agree with Iceaxe more: "But speaking of tacky... I'd put whining that your secret name was not used for the secret canyon you never told anyone about to being on equally tacky footing with naming a route you have never done." Just as hateful as hating Jewish people is hating people who hate Jewish people.

[ratagonia]

Give it up, Tom. Hating on a hater is just as bad as hating. Hating an anti-semite is no way to solve problems and makes you just as bad as him. His naming convention is much preferable to yours because it prevents confusion and does not try to hide its location. Just like Iceaxe said, you're trying to be eletist. Couldn't agree with Iceaxe more: "But speaking of tacky... I'd put whining that your secret name was not used for the secret canyon you never told anyone about to being on equally tacky footing with naming a route you have never done." Just as hateful as hating Jewish people is hating people who hate Jewish people.

Love you too, QED.

T

[Brian in SLC]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5JHGi0awgc