Water Knots - a better way?

[Mountaineer]

Yes.

That is essentially the only way to make a Water Knot.

What are you thinking? perhaps an EDK-webbing, which is not a Water Knot?

Tom :moses:

I splintered the water knot discussion from the accident thread. Expanding on what I was trying to ask previously.

A Water Knot, or Ring Bend, is done by tying an overhand knot, then taking the other strap and reversing the direction back through (opposite direction). Retraced. Long tails are important. In Germany it is called the knot of death.

The study by Tom Moyer proved that a water knot will eventually fail after loading and unloading it "at an average rate of 0.0035 inches per cycle". He also observed "It was interesting to note that only one of the tails slipped into the knot - the one on the 'top' side of the knot."

So I wonder. Is there a better water knot?

There are different ways to tie this (some may be considered "wrong" ways or a different knot name). For example, you can actually start from the longer side of the first overhand, and retrace it back the other way. When loaded, this seems to put more stress on the knot, perhaps weaken it, as it appears to want to pull the knot apart. This is the currently defined wrong way, but does it tighten the knot more so it will not slip?

I've also heard of tying a ring bend while leaving both tails interior, and not exterior. By doing so, slippage is again prevented.

Thoughts? Comments?

[Brian in SLC]

A Water Knot, or Ring Bend, is done by tying an overhand knot, then taking the other strap and reversing the direction back through (opposite direction). Retraced. Long tails are important. In Germany it is called the knot of death...

Do you have a source? I've never heard of a water knot referred to as "the knot of death". DAV?

There's the "EDK" which isn't a water knot. And, no one's quite sure the etymology of "EDK" aka "euro death knot". But, it has become the most accepted and taught way to tie to ropes together for a rappel (UIAGM, UIAA, BMC and AMGA I dimly recall prefer its use).

http://www.animatedknots.com/waterknot/index.php

http://www.animatedknots.com/flatoverhand/index.php?LogoImage=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com

[WorkBad]

There are different ways to tie this (some may be considered "wrong" ways or a different knot name). For example, you can actually start from the longer side of the first overhand, and retrace it back the other way. When loaded, this seems to put more stress on the knot, perhaps weaken it, as it appears to want to pull the knot apart. This is the currently defined wrong way, but does it tighten the knot more so it will not slip?


For others lurking, this description is the EDK, an asymmetrical knot that needs a backup with very long tails... I have only used this knot when I want to tie two ropes together. I have never used the EDK on anchor webbing. If I found an anchor tied using the EDK I would redo it with the standard symmetrical water knot, a knot that has been proven to work time and time again.
Have fun and be safe.

[SRG]

If I found an anchor tied using the EDK I would redo it with the standard symmetrical water knot, a knot that has been proven to work time and time again.
X2

Regarding failure of a properly tied water knot, I think in order to be safe one needs to visually inspect the knot before starting the rappel. If you can count two tails you're safe. With .0035 inches of slippage per rappel, a water knot with only half inch tails would still have about 140 load/unload cycles before it fails.

[Mountaineer]

Do you have a source? I've never heard of a water knot referred to as "the knot of death". DAV?

There's the "EDK" which isn't a water knot. And, no one's quite sure the etymology of "EDK" aka "euro death knot". But, it has become the most accepted and taught way to tie to ropes together for a rappel (UIAGM, UIAA, BMC and AMGA I dimly recall prefer its use).


This is what has been confusing to me. Does Germany or the rest of Europe tie different types of ring bends, and call them all water knots? When they say a water knot, or "knot of death", do they really mean the EDK?

And yes, the other way I described is what I traditionally thought was the EDK. Good. Thanks to WorkBad and SRG for validating.

Knot of death, or water knot:

Walter Siebert (2007), Deutscher Alpenverein, [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%96sterreichischer_Alpenverein"]

[hank moon]

Checking every aspect of your safety system is part of the game. Just as you make sure the rock is good, the bolt doesn't wiggle, harness is buckled, and carabiner locked (etc.), you make sure your knots are properly tied, set, and backed up if necessary.

The water knot is the "standard" knot for joining life-safety webbing in activities at height such as climbing, caving, canyoneering, and even rope rescue. Another knot might/could be developed that addresses some of the water knot's shortcomings, but even that hypothetical "better knot" would need to be checked, too.

Stuff just needs to be checked. If you can't check it, don't use it.

[SRG]

A flemish bend doesn't dress properly in webbing.

Maybe a double fisherman's? Although that wouldn't sit right in webbing either.

If you wanted it to be really bomber you could tie a water knot inside a double fisherman's.

[Bootboy]

I wonder how the beer knot compares slippage wise.

When tying water knots, I generally back them up with overhands in the tails. That way, even if it does slip, It has a stopper knot as a backup. It only takes a few seconds to jerk a little overhand in your tails.
A better, albeit slightly more time consuming method is to do a double water knot, two of them tied in sequence. This way they continue to tighten on one another since the theoretical tail of the first knot has constant tension. Like this:

Notice the alternating "outside" strands. each strand is on the inside once, and the outside once. In this picture, the loaded strands are on the inside first. Then the outside on the tail side knot.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/03/23/ajevy5aj.jpg

Or in this picture, where the loaded strands are on the outside first:

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/03/23/6e2a8usa.jpg

Which gets me thinking... I wonder which way is more secure, outside first, or inside first? I've never given it much thought but this thread (no pun intended) has stimulated the knot tying portion if my brain...

[oldno7]

In my opinion--don't go down the road of--which knot is better than a water knot.

One of the main reasons for using a water knot, other than it IS safe, is that it is very easily identified by most all canyoneers.

And as such, with only a minimum amount of training, one can easily tie and easily identify a water knot.

It's human nature to try to change things in the face of a tragedy, this knot needs no improvement,

It will not fail if tied appropriately!

[kiwi_outdoors]

perhaps with a little sand friction they do not slip IF tied correctly?

[Brian in SLC]

I wonder how the beer knot compares slippage wise.

My bet is, since its a version of the ring bend, similar. With the added bonus of not being able to see one end of it (yikes!).

[Mountaineer]

A better, albeit slightly more time consuming method is to do a double water knot, two of them tied in sequence. This way they continue to tighten on one another since the theoretical tail of the first knot has constant tension.

Notice the alternating "outside" strands. each strand is on the inside once, and the outside once.
Which gets me thinking... I wonder which way is more secure, outside first, or inside first? I've never given it much thought but this thread (no pun intended) has stimulated the knot tying portion if my brain...

Sweet write up and idea. Nice! When tying two rope for a pull, normal practice is to tie a double EDK. So why not tie two water knots?

However, I would tend to think this would just delay the knot from failing beyond the normal failure time of a single water knot (probably > 2x the time though). Certainly once the upper water knot fails, you could visually see it. (Although we start to reach diminishing returns, as you could also argue you'll visually see a bad single water knot by it's short tails)

Tried tying a flemish bend with webbing today. Tough to tie and line up pretty.

[Brian in SLC]

[QUOTE=Mountaineer;530512][FONT=arial]This is what has been confusing to me. Does Germany or the rest of Europe tie different types of ring bends, and call them all water knots? When they say a water knot, or "knot of death", do they really mean the EDK?
Knot of death, or water knot:
Walter Siebert (2007), Deutscher Alpenverein, [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%96sterreichischer_Alpenverein"]

[ratagonia]

According to that article, the water knot is called, in German,"Bandschlingenknoten".

In French, its called, I think, "Le noeud de sangle". Also referred to as "the American Knot"? Hank, what say ye?

Tape knot, water knot, ring bend, grass knot, overhand follow through. In Spanish, I think its called, "Nudo encontrado."

I think the EDK is referred to differently. In French, "vache plein poing". In German, "Sackstich".

In each discipline, in each language, in each country, knots tend to have different names.

In Belgium, is there a Flemish Bend?

The improved Water Knot is the one with and overhand tied in each tail. I see this from time to time - seems excessively paranoid to me. Check to see that the Water Knot in place has 3" tails is what makes sense to me. YMMV.

Tom

[Brian in SLC]

In Belgium, is there a Flemish Bend?

Only in Northern Belgium. In Southern Belgium, its referred to as the Wallonia Bend....

[canyoncaver]

Check to see that the Water Knot in place has 3" tails is what makes sense to me. YMMV.

I'm with Tom on this one. Tie the knot properly, tighten it down, leave enough tail, end of story. No need to re-invent the water knot here. It's worked just fine for a really long time. Unnecessary backup knots get on my nerves.

[Mountaineer]

I'm with Tom on this one. Tie the knot properly, tighten it down, leave enough tail, end of story. No need to re-invent the water knot here. It's worked just fine for a really long time. Unnecessary backup knots get on my nerves.

Just because "we've" always done it a certain way, doesn't mean it is the best way. We should challenge, ask, and think about every technique. Never blindly follow something just because everyone else says it is the best, or the only way.

Having said that, after several nights of sleeping on it, I think I'm finally at peace with the water knot. Took me longer perhaps, than most.

Water knot, or the German/European knot of death; not to be confused of course with the European death knot...:lol8:

[Mudface]

Page 50 of the book On Rope shows the knot you are describing. Difficult to tie, works very well. Biggest drawback is listening to everyone who looks at it and thinks you mis-tied a water knot. Tie an overhand knot in a piece of webbing, thread one end into the hollow end of the other about 12", work the overhand knot to the middle of the overlap area and set the knot.
64822

[Brian in SLC]

Page 50 of the book On Rope shows the knot you are describing. Difficult to tie, works very well. Biggest drawback is listening to everyone who looks at it and thinks you mis-tied a water knot.

Beer knot. Can't see the tails which is that blue whale's bigger brother drawback.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer_knot

[kiwi_outdoors]

Just because "we've" always done it a certain way, doesn't mean it is the best way. We should challenge, ask, and think about every technique. Never blindly follow something just because everyone else says it is the best, or the only way.


well fine, but please understand that your attitude can be pretty darned annoying, and at times it may make you look like an idiot for challenging reliable institutional knowledge

[Mountaineer]

"Just because "we've" always done it a certain way, doesn't mean it is the best way. We should challenge, ask, and think about every technique. Never blindly follow something just because everyone else says it is the best, or the only way."

well fine, but please understand that your attitude can be pretty darned annoying, and at times it may make you look like an idiot for challenging reliable institutional knowledge

Thanks to all those who have taken the time to challenge, ask, upload pictures, and think about alternate ways to the water knot. Pursuing a better way (if there is one)....Bootboy, Mudface, kiwi_outdoors, and others. I thought it has been very beneficial, at least for me. I didn't realize this knot can fail, which gave me initial pause. But there are a lot of things that can fail, especially if not done properly. Oldno7 comment especially resonated, as it is something common (known) that can be inspected visually.

Nicely done. :nod:

[Slot Machine]

well fine, but please understand that your attitude can be pretty darned annoying, and at times it may make you look like an idiot for challenging reliable institutional knowledge

64894

:haha::lol8::haha::lol8::haha:

Bob