FiddleStick finally available

[ratagonia]

Two years in the making, by a cast of thousands - The FiddleStick is now available as an Imlay Canyon Gear product.

The FiddleStick is an advanced canyoneering anchor tool. It is a new approach to retrievable anchoring, opening up a wider range of possible anchors, and making it possible to descend more canyons while leaving nothing behind (aka “ghosting”). As an ADVANCED anchor tool, it requires skill, practice and understanding to use safely. Even when used properly, it has the possibility of failing, resulting in severe injury or death, or being stranded in a canyon with your ropes hopelessly stuck.

http://www.canyoncollective.com/attachments/fiddle00-jpg.1456/

The FiddleStick retrievable anchor system has some great benefits:

- Rope grooves are virtually eliminated.
- Anchors can be well back from the edge of the rappel.
- Anchors can be around corners.
- Uses little to no webbing.
- Can easily and safely “ghost” in many circumstances.
- Faster to rig than most any other anchor.
- Lightweight.
- Fun!

The “FiddleStick” is both a product and a concept. It is certainly possible to make very reasonable FiddleSticks at home, but it is somewhat difficult to improvise them in the field from commonly carried materials.
While it is possible to use the FiddleStick on traderoute canyons, to not contribute to deeper rope grooves or make some pulls easier, it really shines on first descents and in rarely-traveled backcountry canyons where it is of substantial benefit to not leave junk behind.

Using the FiddleStick
The FiddleStick is based on the Stone knot. The Stone (Stein) knot can be used to secure both sides of a doubled rope so both can be rappelled on. The concept is the same when FiddleSticking, but one end of the rope is just a short tail, while the other (long) end is used to rappel on. A pull cord removes the FiddleStick, and the Stone knot falls apart, leaving a short, clean end of the rope to be pulled out from around the anchor, and down the drop.

There are several versions of the Stone Knot, but the one we recommend for the FiddleStick is the Upward Overhand Stone, which has the most consistent disintegration once the Stick is pulled. Learn more about tying and uses of the Stone knot at: CUSA Tech Tip: The Stone Knot (http://tinyurl.com/stoneknot)

By replacing the carabiner in the Stone knot with a stick and leaving one strand short, you create a very slick retrievable anchor. Upon removing the stick, the knot falls apart, and only the short end of the rope needs to pull from around the anchor.

More Information available at CUSA Tech Tip: The FiddleStick (http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/techtips/the-fiddlestick-an-advanced-anchor-tool-for-canyoneering)

Available for sale at the CUSA Store (http://www.store.canyoneeringusa.com/index.php?option=com_rokecwid&Itemid=108#!/~/product/category=2490788&id=21353554) and at better Canyoneering Retailers everywhere.

[Slot Machine]

Interesting... I have mixed feelings about this one.

I will probably get to field test your new product in the next few days (or at least witness a field test, should I deem the test crazy). I'll write an objective review when I get back.

[2065toyota]

64080

I am happy with how they turned out. I don't feel there is any risk of it "falling" out. It can be pulled or pushed out however. The attached pic is a situation where the the only anchor placement was in the drainage. To tie the knot farther down would have put it over the lip which makes it harder to start. I was very careful to rap to the side and twist the rope so the stick was laid flat against the rock rather than being pushed out. I see this as being something that could be easily overlooked as setting it up if very easy. As with anything, practice and pay attention to the details

[ilipichicuma]

I've used my home made fiddlestick many times on a variety of rappels. You do have to be careful about how it lays against things around it and keep an eye on it, but overall I've really liked it. It's worked awesome every time I've used it.

[Slot Machine]

I copied this from the CC, since I think it is very important for every potential fiddlesticker to know. Big props to Tom for sharing this information! :2thumbs:


On our first rappel on Sunday, we had an odd thing happen. A 40' rappel off an arch, from an exposed stance, with Ram going last, using a brand new Imlay 8mm rope for the rap, and a 6mm pull cord for the pull. Ram pulled the carabiner out and re-cinched the knot. When he lifted the rope up to rig his rappel device, the FiddleStick fell out and went to the ground.

If the setup had been a little different, the rappelling rope could have also fallen out, which could have had dire consequences. We had previously used the FiddleStick exclusively with well-used ropes (I think).

BE VERY CAREFUL when the rope is brand new and slippery. Cinch the Stone Knot down tightly on the FiddleStick, and see how sticky it is. Make sure it is sticky enough that it will not fall out.

It also calls for CARE while Rappelling - keep tension on the rope until you are at the bottom, and/or, if you unweight the rope between segments of a rappel, be sure to TEST the anchor again before you put your weight on it again.

______________________________

There is also one other major problem that I've thought of regarding the fiddlestick:

When rappelling from the fiddlestick, there is the potential to release the knot by stepping on, or snagging the fiddlestick pullcord.

This issue can be resolved by pulling up a few lengths of pullcord and piling it beside the anchor, creating a few feet of buffer should you hit/snag/step on the pullcord.

I'm not bagging on the product, or on Tom, it's just a concern that I thought of when using a SandTrap this past weekend. :hmm2:

[Brian in SLC]

I'm not bagging on the product...

I will. I think its a foolish product to promote and a foolish technique to use. It'll hurt or kill someone soon enough.

Its one of those techniques that should be mentioned around the fire by folks in casual conversation with regard to techniques used but not promoted, or, thought of as "safe" for most people.

Any technique that requires LAMAR every time its used, if used often, will eventually play out badly.

Just like releasable hitches. Macrame knot. Etc. These kill even experienced people.

Even when used properly, it has the possibility of failing, resulting in severe injury or death, or being stranded in a canyon with your ropes hopelessly stuck.

Wow, that's quite the sales pitch.

Rig the FiddleStick in plain sight. While this is not a requirement, it is nice if the FiddleStick can be seen while getting on rappel, and even better if it can be seen from the bottom of the drop. This allows you to keep an eye on it at all times.

If I can't trust and anchor or my rigging enough to take my eye of it...then...I don't trust it.


The FiddleStick could get stuck on something. You checked really carefully ahead of time, right? If it sticks after coming out of the knot DON’T PULL IT YET.- If the FiddleStick doesn’t come out you are “jacked up” or “buggered” (technical terms).

They why use it? Less is more. Dedicated piece of gear that could get stuck. Not optimal.


If not, add some security to the pull cord side by:- Snagging the pull cord on a bush or stick, that can then be easily broken by a pull from below;
- Back from the edge, stack a rock or two atop the pull cord, to hold it until pulled from below. Be sure the stack is far enough back that the rock will not be knocked over the edge;

Oh, goodness no. So, get the pull cord stuck ahead of time? Yeah, that's a good idear. Or, how 'bout a stack of rocks that could spill over and clock you whilst on rappel?

Canyoneering...taking something simple and safe like rappelling and making it as dangerous as possible...

[Slot Machine]

It'll hurt or kill someone soon enough...

I've taken the time to consider this from every angle, and I tend to agree.

Jenny West showed us both the SandTrap and the Fiddlestick this past weekend. I kept an open mind about both products during my lessons. Even though they are both new and novel anchors, they are VERY different. The saftey margain between the two products is HUGE. (I only bring up the SandTrap because I think that many people lump 'novel' anchoring systems into the same category. However, there are big differences between each product in the 'novel' category.)

So, here is my conclusion:

I don't think I would ever use a Fiddlestick, and I wouldn't want anyone in my group to use one either. If the stick can move, or the stone knot can come loose once you are set up and ready to rap, then what good is it? It's a choice between compromising safety or leaving a groove.

In comparison, The SandTrap is a predicatable and reliable product. With proper instruction it is just as safe as your average carin/deadman anchor. Once a few members of your team have tested it, the SandTrap 'settles in' and doesn't move. The Sandtrap doesn't leak sand (like a water anchor might leak water) and is surprisingly stable. I could make Deathcricket a believer, trust me. :cool2: :haha:

Anyway, that is my objective opinion. I admire the spirit of innovation, but don't admire the reliability of the Fiddlestick.

Bob

[Iceaxe]

I think its a foolish product to promote and a foolish technique to use. It'll hurt or kill someone soon enough.

^^^THIS^^^

This FiddleStick technique is nothing but a giant gamble every time you use it. And the major problem with that is you only have one big chip to bet on every toss of the dice, sooner or later this is going to come up snake eyes for someone.

I'm betting it will be some poor noob trying to copy the A-team and at the current rate of promotion I'm putting the over/under at 2 years.

:popcorn:

[mzamp]

Tom,
Umm, why isn't there a hole in each end of the fiddlestick so you can secure it with a canyon quickdraw and prevent it from ever slipping out of the stone knot? last man down has to remove the quickdraw, but at least they got to watch how the fiddlestick interacts with the rocks/environment while someone is rapping.

[Deathcricket]

I could make Deathcricket a believer, trust me. :cool2: :haha:

Anyway, that is my objective opinion. I admire the spirit of innovation, but don't admire the reliability of the Fiddlestick.

Bob

Ha! I dunno maybe if I saw it in action. I'm pretty easily convinced to do risky stuff. :haha:

I have also been on a couple trips with Kody (2065Toyota) and that dude is legit and very competent (and his crew). So I would probably even rap on a fiddlestick if he told me he felt it was safe and busted it out on a trip. But I still gotta admit that water trap and fiddle stick scare the F-ing crap outta me. Risking my life over a $10 bolt just doesn't seem like fun. I was just reading that bummer thread about a guy dieing off a webbing mishap and that is rock solid tech. Yet someone still died. There is just too many variables in this equation IMO, when your life is on the line.

[2065toyota]

There is no doubt, somebody will eventually get hurt using a fiddlestick and there will be a huge discussion on how unsafe they are and why they shouldn't be used. And all will be legit arguments. That being said, fiddlesticks are mainly used off of trees and large boulders. Both of these items are stronger anchors than a bolt placed into some sandstone. If you disagree, place a bolt in some sandstone and hook your vehicle to it and see how easily it pulls out. Now hook you car to tree trunk and see if it comes out. Good luck. People have been injured and killed by using webbing. There isn't a huge discussion that it should be banned, only used and tied properly. People have been injured and killed from biner blocks by rapping off the wrong rope. Same conclusion, use it properly. The fiddlestick is just another arsenal that if used properly serves it's purpose and is safe. If you don't feel comfortable using it, then don't. The setup is faster than a biner block because there is no feeding through the anchor, and the clean up is faster than a biner block because you are only unbagging the exact amount of rope used for the rap and pull. Sorry Jake, my wife wont allow me to go with the Z crew anymore once she found out how dangerous you are. :lol8:

[hesse15]

^^^THIS^^^
I'm betting it will be some poor noob trying to copy the A-team and at the current rate of promotion I'm putting the over/under at 2 years.

:popcorn:
you totally got the point, so many out there now day that do 2 canyons and thinking they are PRO!!!!

but at the same time there is the DISCLAIMER., you just need to read it and use your brain.

to be out there and never had an accident I think you need to have the right mind!

we never been a single time any close to having problems, HE will never wanted to risk to deal with MY MOTHER if something was going to happens to me in a canyon!!!!!:nono:

but I was fortunate do do canyons with ONE OF THE BEST canyoneer out there!!!!

[Deathcricket]

Sorry Jake, my wife wont allow me to go with the Z crew anymore once she found out how dangerous you are. :lol8:

And to think, she let me belay her and the kids before she knew. :haha:

I don't think the issue is how strong the system locks in, or how tough/strong the anchors are, I think the issue is how easily it falls out and unlocks with zero warning. I can see a pull cord prematurely pulling it, a slight twist against the rock pushing it out, or someone stepping on a temp ledge and unweighting it (then it just falls out), and who knows what else. I can even see a wrongful death lawsuit to a manufacturer who knowingly produced such a faulty device as possible. I guess we can bump the thread when the 1st accident happens and discuss it further? *shrug*

[Kuya]

you totally got the point, so many out there now day that do 2 canyons and thinking they are PRO!!!!

but at the same time there is the DISCLAIMER., you just need to read it and use your brain.

to be out there and never had an accident I think you need to have the right mind!

we never been a single time any close to having problems, HE will never wanted to risk to deal with MY MOTHER if something was going to happens to me in a canyon!!!!!:nono:

but I was fortunate do do canyons with ONE OF THE BEST canyoneer out there!!!!

100% agree! :2thumbs:

[TommyBoy]

I don't use it very often, but I have one made out of 1/2" dowel rod that I coated in varnish. Even with the weight of rope on a 150' rappel it still required a decent tug to free the fiddlestick. They're not for every drop and must be used with caution, double and tripple checking before sending the last man down, but I never felt unsafe while using it. I usually have some one drag the pull rope off to the side too so I don't accidentally snag it and pull it loose when going down.

[ratagonia]

Tom,
Umm, why isn't there a hole in each end of the fiddlestick so you can secure it with a canyon quickdraw and prevent it from ever slipping out of the stone knot? last man down has to remove the quickdraw, but at least they got to watch how the fiddlestick interacts with the rocks/environment while someone is rapping.

A good idea, now under consideration.

Tom

[ratagonia]

I don't use it very often, but I have one made out of 1/2" dowel rod that I coated in varnish. Even with the weight of rope on a 150' rappel it still required a decent tug to free the fiddlestick. They're not for every drop and must be used with caution, double and tripple checking before sending the last man down, but I never felt unsafe while using it. I usually have some one drag the pull rope off to the side too so I don't accidentally snag it and pull it loose when going down.

Toyota and TommyBoy - perhaps you did not notice, but this thread is for people who have never used the FiddleStick to pontificate on how dangerous the whole thing is.

Perhaps there should be a separate thread for people who have actually used it.

Tom :moses:

[Deathcricket]

Toyota and TommyBoy - perhaps you did not notice, but this thread is for people who have never used the FiddleStick to pontificate on how dangerous the whole thing is.

Perhaps there should be a separate thread for people who have actually used it.

Tom :moses:

x2 - and in the next year we'll start a 3rd thread to discuss accidents and deaths caused by it. :2thumbs:

[Slot Machine]

A good idea, now under consideration.

Tom

Why bother?

I've been told (by friendly experts that love the Fiddlestick) that normally everyone raps from a meat anchor, except for the last person, who gets the rare and awesome opportunity to be a stuntman. :haha:





Disclaimer: I don't know nothin' about nothin'. I don't research nothin'. I don't practice nothin'. I don't know anyone that knows nothin'. Jus' forget anythin' I said on this thread. Trying to learn anythin' from it will only make you more dummer. I'm kinda embarrassed that I got caught pontificating in front of y'all.

Dupid. Dupid. Me so dupid.

:lol8::haha::lol8::mrgreen::haha::mrgreen::lol8:

[hesse15]

Toyota and TommyBoy - perhaps you did not notice, but this thread is for people who have never used the FiddleStick to pontificate on how dangerous the whole thing is.

Perhaps there should be a separate thread for people who have actually used it.

Tom :moses:

come on Tom pontificate on others is what is going on for decades :cool2::bootyshake::bootyshake:
i think you need to start growing some beard and mustache ,I think will look nice on you!!!:naughty:

[ratagonia]

Why bother?

I've been told (by friendly experts that love the Fiddlestick) that normally everyone raps from a meat anchor, except for the last person, who gets the rare and awesome opportunity to be a stuntman.



Rarely. Not really how it is done. Sometimes with a big crowd, if the FiddleStick anchor takes a while to set up, people are meat-anchored down, but usually everyone raps off the same anchor.

Tom

[hesse15]

probably what he means is that until the last men down you keep an eye on the fiddle and just in case you backed up the fiddle so does not release if accidentally somebody pull the little release cord!!
but i could be wrong!!!! (NOOOOOOO!!!!)
:roll:

Rarely. but usually everyone raps off the same anchor.

Tom

[Brian in SLC]

Toyota and TommyBoy - perhaps you did not notice, but this thread is for people who have never used the FiddleStick to pontificate on how dangerous the whole thing is.

Perhaps there should be a separate thread for people who have actually used it.

64438

I don't need to get hurt or killed first to comment on it, now, do I?

Yeah, I own one.

[Iceaxe]

Toyota and TommyBoy - perhaps you did not notice, but this thread is for people who have never used the FiddleStick to pontificate on how dangerous the whole thing is.


I played around extensively with the system. And unless your design or material is magically and vastly superior to the dozens of different combinations I've seen used I'll stick with my original assessment that the general concept is flawed and dangerous.

The knowledge of the fiddlestix and how it works is one of those things that is nice to know, but not something I'd consider using except in an emergency.

But what the hell do I know, I just keep remembeing back to when macreme knots were all the rage.

YMMV


Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[gootwan]

Tom,
Umm, why isn't there a hole in each end of the fiddlestick so you can secure it with a canyon quickdraw and prevent it from ever slipping out of the stone knot? last man down has to remove the quickdraw, but at least they got to watch how the fiddlestick interacts with the rocks/environment while someone is rapping.

Good idea. Looks easy enough to drill your own hole on the other side to fit an Attache.

[hank moon]

Yeah, I own one.

Not to worry Beady, your 'gear ho' cred is still good 'round here :)

[Brian in SLC]

Not to worry Beady, your 'gear ho' cred is still good 'round here :)

Whew! 'Preciate ya!

Can't help but think there has to be a better mouse trap...

Messing around, here's a couple of whacky options (kids, don't try this at home or in the field!):

You know how a lot of belay/rappel devices have a guide mode? Its a sort of progress capture. Here's the Kong Ghost:

64459

Yank on the pull cord...defeats the progress capture:

64460

Then there's a clove hitch on a Verm Hook:

64461

Yank on pull cord, and, it tips the Verm hook so the clove hitch slides off:

64462

None of the risk of using the "releasable" systems is worth your life, or, the two bucks worth of webbing you'd have to leave.

I'm all for innovation and "ghosting", but...there's a diminishing return with the equipment and/or techniques used are themselves inherently dangerous...

[Exergy]

Toyota and TommyBoy - perhaps you did not notice, but this thread is for people who have never used the FiddleStick to pontificate on how dangerous the whole thing is.

Perhaps there should be a separate thread for people who have actually used it.

Tom :moses:

Seriously??? The original post comes across as a sales pitch. Maybe it's the title that threw me off, or the multiple paragraphs touting the benefits, or the bold print advertising it for sale, or the copy/paste from the product page. Ok, whatever. Perhaps I'm just bothered that you suggest these guys start their own post [so as not to detract from the sales pitch perhaps?]

If the true purpose of the thread is for non-users to pontificate the dangers, what better way than to draw from the experience of others. Some valid concerns have been raised such as what happens if the rappeller steps on a ledge and unweights the rope -- didn't see that one on the product page. These are the types of concerns that need to be published so the user can become familiar with the hazards. Heck, these questions are really a favor for Imlay that would be important to include in a product manual if it has one.

My pontification: personal preference is for a DIY release system because I'd at least test it several times in low-risk situations prior to actual use. Then I'd be somewhat familiar with the limitations. Any peice of DIY equipment automatically gets more respect. As soon as a ICG sticker is slapped on it and I can throw it in the "cart" people assume it's been developed to be safe for the "average user" who of course feels they have "advanced capabilities". I think it'll result in a senseless loss of life and then any profit will be gone in a puff of smoke. Better to advertise bolts and drills.

Other pontifications/questions/concerns I have:


Climbing equipment made of plastic is unheard of when the consequence of a single-point failure is death
Has accelerated environmental testing has been performed on the finished product, the product page states it has been in development for two years only, what is the disposal life for the rated load when exposed to a canyoneering environment
How is one to inspect for cracks; visual or other NDI techniques; plastics can have hairline fractures which are invisible to the naked eye
The fiddle stick folds and breaks in the stone knot at about 1200 lbs; I assume this is for a pristine specimen; what load does the fiddlestick fail at with the largest visually-undetectable (missed) crack in the knot
What is the temperature range for the rated load

[JennyMae]

Why bother?

I've been told (by friendly experts that love the Fiddlestick) that normally everyone raps from a meat anchor, except for the last person, who gets the rare and awesome opportunity to be a stuntman. :haha:


Bob,
With my tongue deeply embedded in my cheek, my "demonstration" of the Fiddlestick you refer to was truly a playful jest aimed at our sceptical friend, Scott. Recall that I rigged it in a tiny breakable arch and added every joking gesture that I could toss in. I would love to show it in a serious anchor situation to offer you a true test to judge. Indeed I am a lover of the Fiddlestick. I am often the last person down the rappel as I have confidence in my method of setting it up to ensure my safe passage and I offer a lighter weight load on the systems. Honestly, I love my life and I really hate to be afraid. I do not feel that I'm being a stunt(wo)man at all. That "rare and awesome opportunity" has come my way in the test stages; off my deck, in Tom's workroom, in numerous tests and in the many variations that have led to the latest versions of Aguanchor, Sandtrap and Fiddlestick. To further clarify your comment, my friend, more often the Fiddlestick is backed up by various methods (which have been shown/explained in other threads) rather than setting up a meat anchor for all but the last person.
BTW, after a week of careful evaluation, Scott lost his scepticism and converted to the sense and safety in these anchor systems.

It was wonderful romping through a few canyons with you and yours.
Jenny

[hank moon]

Other pontifications/questions/concerns I have:


Climbing equipment made of plastic is unheard of when the consequence of a single-point failure is death


Well, I'll start by pointing out that all climbing ropes fall into this category...

:haha:

But I digress...

I would like to see testing to address some of your other concerns as well. My understanding is that at least some of that is underway.

:popcorn:

[Slot Machine]

I would love to show it in a serious anchor situation to offer you a true test to judge. Indeed I am a lover of the Fiddlestick. I would like this too since we are still open to learning more. From what I've observed, it seems like a very dangerous tool. It seems that at any given rappel there will always be a safer anchoring option. Maybe not a cleaner option, but safer. From what I can tell, the failure rate on the Fiddlestick MUST be higher than other anchoring methods. If it can just fall out, like it did with Ram, then I will never ever use it.


I do not feel that I'm being a stunt(wo)man at all. My use of the word 'stuntman', is of course, a joke. If Tom gets to overstate things (pontificating), then I do too. :mrgreen: I'm simply playing a little with Tom.
:duel:


Scott lost his skepticism and converted to the sense and safety in these anchor systems. No two anchors carry equal amounts of risk, so lumping them all together as 'safe' misrepresents each individual product. The margin for error on the SandTrap is wide (i.e. you can load a lot of sand, or a moderate amount of sand, and it will still work.) I know very little about the WaterTrap; but think it has the potential to be a good anchor, and that it will also have a large margin for error.

Back to my original point, the margin for error on the Fiddlestick is zero (i.e. either it works, or it doesn't). I don't worry about you Jenny, because you are very highly skilled. However, when we are talking about my clumsy ass, then I can easily see myself getting killed with such a tool, because I am clumsy, because I'm not a light rappeller, and because I don't watch the anchor once I commit to a rappel. Do I represent the average person that would buy a Fiddlestick? Perhaps.

For you and Tom to use it is one thing, for it to be sold as a commercial product is a whole 'nother issue. I think @Exergy (http://www.bogley.com/forum/member.php?u=19862) made several very good points concerning the standard for commercial sale.


It was wonderful romping through a few canyons with you and yours. ^^ This we totally agree on! ^^ We can't wait for our next chance to get together. You are a wonderful teacher, but you and Steph need to work on your pothole escape techniques. :lol8:

[2065toyota]

"For you and Tom to use it is one thing, for it to be sold as a commercial product is a whole 'nother issue. I think @Exergy (http://www.bogley.com/forum/member.php?u=19862) made several very good points concerning the standard for commercial sale."

Could this not be the case for every piece of equipment used. Heck, even a figure 8 wont save you life if you let go of the rope

[Brian in SLC]

Could this not be the case for every piece of equipment used. Heck, even a figure 8 wont save you life if you let go of the rope

Not even a reasonable comparison. You got "user error" versus "inherently dangerous".

Ever seen ANY piece of climbing and/or rappelling and/or canyoneering equipment commercially sold with the following in its product literature?:

Even when used properly, it has the possibility of failing, resulting in severe injury or death, or being stranded in a canyon with your ropes hopelessly stuck.

I wonder how many retailers will carry it? The smart ones won't touch it.

[ilipichicuma]

Just thought I'd weigh in here (again). My friends and I have tested the issue of pulling the fiddlestick out of the knot while the rope is weighted. We found that with weight on the rope, it was almost impossible to pull the fiddlestick out (mine is made of of 1/2 inch PVC). That was one of the first things we tested in my garage. Of course, we keep an eye on it, but I'll do that with a deadman as well. I haven't found it to be inherently dangerous or anything.

[2065toyota]

Warning Labels Manufacturers of consumer products have to be liberal with the warning labels these days, lest they get sued. But for these, it's hard to know whether the company is being outright stupid or if they're simply targeting the most brain dead dumb among us.

"Shin pads cannot protect any part of the body they do not cover." -- On a pair of shin guards made for bicyclists.
"Do not use while sleeping." -- On a hair dryer.
"Do not use while sleeping or unconscious." -- On a hand-held massaging device.
"Do not place this product into any electronic equipment." -- On the case of a chocolate CD in a gift basket.
"Caution: Shoots rubber bands." -- On a product called "Rubber Band Shooter."

[Brian in SLC]

Of course, we keep an eye on it, but I'll do that with a deadman as well.

Gallows humor...sorry...I got a chuckle out of that.

Be careful out there kids...

[ratagonia]

Seriously???





I thought it might be of interest to the readers of this thread that the loudest critics were people that have not used nor tried to use this device in the field.

That's all.

Tom :moses:

[Iceaxe]

I thought it might be of interest to the readers of this thread that the loudest critics were people that have not used nor tried to use this device in the field.

That's all.

Just curious..... how do you know what the critics have or have not tried in the field? Or are you just guessing and grandstanding?


Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[Deathcricket]

http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?62185-Corona-Arch-Rope-Swing&p=530851&viewfull=1#post530851

Making a really great video of swinging the arch has had consequences. One of those consequences is that people less prepared and less savvy will do the same thing, but do it poorly, resulting in damage to the arch, and to themselves.

Just as I have responsibility for the rope grooves and trails on the sandpile in Spry Canyon, because I am the original publicist for that specific canyon.

Tom

You know.... If you take this quote from the Corona Arch thread and apply it to this thread.... Some interesting conclusions can be derived using simple extrapolation. This thread can then be concluded I think, and bumped again when the 1st accident occurs.

[2065toyota]

You know.... If you take this quote from the Corona Arch thread and apply it to this thread.... Some interesting conclusions can be derived using simple extrapolation. This thread can then be concluded I think, and bumped again when the 1st accident occurs.

I see your point a little Jake, but no matter how the story plays out which is almost always the case, it will be user error that caused it. No different than trying to blame and 'Assault Rifle' for shooting somebody. Hopefully nothing ever comes of your predictions because as we know there has already been too many. Let's all try to do a better job of double checking anchors and making sure everybody sets their devices up correctly.

[Deathcricket]

I see your point a little Jake, but no matter how the story plays out which is almost always the case, it will be user error that caused it. No different than trying to blame and 'Assault Rifle' for shooting somebody. Hopefully nothing ever comes of your predictions because as we know there has already been too many. Let's all try to do a better job of double checking anchors and making sure everybody sets their devices up correctly.

Oh for sure! 100% agreed. The end user is always responsible for products they purchase and consume. My comment is really more about marketing, producing, and promoting a possible faulty device to the unwashed masses and the responsibility included therein. It's a completely different point for competent canyoneers such as yourself to use a device of their own accord or possibly something they made in their garage let's say. Once you bring a product on the market and start selling it for a profit, the scenario changes a bit IMO. I think most (or at least some) consumers have a knowledge gap and possibly assume a product is "safer" than it really is, they assume it has been tested or perhaps put more trust in it than they should. This is when the "mistake" (as you put it) comes into play. Taking the devices safety margin for granted, getting in over your head, one mistake you're dead.

Your gun analogy is only accurate (I think) if you change it a bit to be that the gun is always pointed at your head, someone's finger is always on the trigger, and you have to constantly check to make sure the safety is on. A rifle's job could be argued that it's to take a life, but there are so many safeguards in place I don't think it's nearly this inherently dangerous. Keep the safety on, never point it at anyone, etc, etc... This device is way more dangerous than a gun ever will be IMO. *shrug*

[2065toyota]

If you would stop being a pansy and saying your leg hurts and come with us I think you would change your mind a little :haha:

[Exergy]

I thought it might be of interest to the readers of this thread that the loudest critics were people that have not used nor tried to use this device in the field.

That's all.

Tom :moses:

What Iceaxe said. First Tom wants people that haven't tried it...when he gets what he asks for he runs at the mouth in an attempt to discredit their pontifications :roll: ... Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!

Although he might like it, it is true that I have never played with Tom's fiddlestick :nono:. The only stick I have ever fiddled with is my own. Tom doesn't know me so he doesn't know the time I spend practicing/learning rope skills (including ghosting). There was a website (maybe Tom's) which illustrated several ghosting techniques that I experimented with awhile back including a wooden dowel (AKA fiddlestick), the omni-sling, and others. I think the page has since been taken down.

[Exergy]

I thought it might be of interest to the readers of this thread that the loudest critics were people that have not used nor tried to use this device in the field.

That's all.

Tom :moses:

I will say that I admire Tom's efforts to grow the sport -- I use his book and visit his site. However...

Material science questions are much better suited to the lab than the field. The field isn't where you want to learn the material limitations that a lab geek can discover. I wish Tom would address the Qs instead of blowing them off. It was previously suggested that rope is a single point failure -- the multiple strands make it highly redundant -- a failure of one strand is isolated to that strand. A small undetected crack in the fiddlestick can grow unrestrained through the entire section resulting in complete failure under load. This is true even for metals but the metals used in climbing equipment are well suited to resisting crack growth. There's a reason the big manufacturers of climbing gear and life support equipment don't use plastic for single point failure items where a life is on the line. This to me is a red flag. It is not a trivial effort to select a material for life support items.

Although it is an inherently risky piece of equipment, my biggest concern is with the material selection. As one who oversees material selections and failure analysis for critical applications I can't help but be skeptical when I see a small business stepping outside the mainstream for critical applications. Perhaps ICG has already studied the fracture mechanics of the fiddlestick (crack growth analysis, durability and damage tolerance, environmental testing and the like). If so, good on them, let the masses get educated and use it. If not, it would be wise to consider such analysis.

[PG Rob]

I personally would have no problem using ICG's fiddlestick. I use a different variation of the fiddlestick now.

If it makes you feel better, consider the fiddlestick a disposable, 1 use item or a large keychain. After 1 use, toss it, and use a new one, or hook your keys to it to show everyone your canyoneering cred.

Each should take on the responsibility of using it, or any product, at their own risk.

Many products serve a valuable purpose where the manufacturer needs to indemnify themselves from people using the product. Don't even try to tell me you use these only as directed.
64767

[ratagonia]

I will say that I admire Tom's efforts to grow the sport -- I use his book and visit his site. However...

Material science questions are much better suited to the lab than the field. The field isn't where you want to learn the material limitations that a lab geek can discover. I wish Tom would address the Qs instead of blowing them off. It was previously suggested that rope is a single point failure -- the multiple strands make it highly redundant -- a failure of one strand is isolated to that strand. A small undetected crack in the fiddlestick can grow unrestrained through the entire section resulting in complete failure under load. This is true even for metals but the metals used in climbing equipment are well suited to resisting crack growth. There's a reason the big manufacturers of climbing gear and life support equipment don't use plastic for single point failure items where a life is on the line. This to me is a red flag. It is not a trivial effort to select a material for life support items.

Although it is an inherently risky piece of equipment, my biggest concern is with the material selection. As one who oversees material selections and failure analysis for critical applications I can't help but be skeptical when I see a small business stepping outside the mainstream for critical applications. Perhaps ICG has already studied the fracture mechanics of the fiddlestick (crack growth analysis, durability and damage tolerance, environmental testing and the like). If so, good on them, let the masses get educated and use it. If not, it would be wise to consider such analysis.

You are kind of out-of-place on this thread, Exergy, bringing up an ACTUAL POTENTIAL ISSUE.

I recognize your concern as valid, and it was considered carefully in the selection of the final material.

What mechanism do you see for cracking the PolyCarbonate? PC is pretty tough and pretty strong - I just do not see a mechanism for stressing it to the point of cracking. Some of Brendon's prototypes cracked, but they were recycled uni-directional fiberglas sail battens, much much more prone to cracking than PolyCarbonate - and even cracked would be full strength since the cracks were longitudinal.

If you are concerned, please do a free-body diagram on the thing and estimate the forces involved. I think you will see that the forces are well-within the fatigue limits of the material chosen (or, in this case, pseudo-fatigue-limits). You are welcome to make your own FiddleStick out of whatever material you find most acceptable. However, the Lexan ones have approx 1000 raps on them without difficulty.

Tom :moses:

[Brian in SLC]

What mechanism do you see for cracking the PolyCarbonate? PC is pretty tough and pretty strong - I just do not see a mechanism for stressing it to the point of cracking.

Tough stuff. It'd almost have to be honked up in processing. I think if you heat it to form when the material is wet, it can get pretty brittle. Can't imagine a sheet of it would have that issue without notice, especially cutting it to shape.

Makrolon is the stuff we injection mold a bunch. Not that there aren't issues...ha ha. Ugh...

Gonna probably scratch pretty easy, I'd guess. A well scratched up Fiddlestick might be tougher to pull through that stone knot. Might could effect the friction. Knockin' around after a number of pull downs might roughen it up a touch, I'd think.

After, uhh, fiddlin' around with one a bit, the material doesn't seem to be as much of an issue to me. Pretty good application, really. Too bad it doesn't float...

[Moose Droppings]

I think its a foolish product to promote and a foolish technique to use. It'll hurt or kill someone soon enough.

^^^THIS^^^

This FiddleStick technique is nothing but a giant gamble every time you use it. And the major problem with that is you only have one big chip to bet on every toss of the dice, sooner or later this is going to come up snake eyes for someone.

I'm betting it will be some poor noob trying to copy the A-team and at the current rate of promotion I'm putting the over/under at 2 years.

:popcorn:

+1

Fiddlesticks!??.... wow. shit like this puts the "progression" of canyoneering on the wrong side of Occam's Razor. i'll caste my vote for renaming the fiddlestick to occam's razor.:lol8:

[Exergy]

What mechanism do you see for cracking the PolyCarbonate?

If you are concerned, please do a free-body diagram on the thing and estimate the forces involved....

However, the Lexan ones have approx 1000 raps on them without difficulty.


Replace the fiddlestick with your finger and rap off it. You'll be likely to find the mechanism.

If I stood to make a dime off this I'd do some analysis but it would involve instrumentation rather than an FBD. PM sent.

If the 1000 raps weren't done on an intentionally flawed part, then damage tolerance wasn't assessed. Bottom line is I won't be dropping money on a plastic fiddlestick. Maybe metal. I don't like to load all the cylinders when playing Russian Roulette.

[bjp]

For what it's worth, I've attached my thoughts on the general fiddlestick approach (using an aluminum rod fiddlestick rather than a Fiddlestick) below. Tom, I'm curious why you decided on a roughly rectangular extrusion rather than a polycarbonate rod. Also, the pull was easy enough with an aluminum rod that I'm going to try a wood dowel next time to see how much harder it is.

---
I had the opportunity to try out a fiddlestick-type rigging in a canyon this weekend and overall I was very impressed -- I plan to enthusiastically use this rigging in the appropriate circumstances, but for me I expect these circumstances to be pretty rare.


The primary unique advantage I see to a fiddlestick setup is that only one unknotted, unlooped strand of rope needs to be pulled around the anchor when retrieving the system. The only other setup I'm aware of that has a characteristic similar to this is the Buckle, and the Buckle has many possible ways to rig it incorrectly in ghost mode -- basically, I perceive the Buckle to be more finicky than a fiddlestick. This single-strand-around-anchor characteristic would be very useful when using large natural anchors, or natural anchors with lots of friction, and I wouldn't hesitate to seriously consider a fiddlestick in these cases. I also don't know of a better way to rig a fixed (not retrievable) quick link anchor to avoid rope grooves.


When I used a fiddlestick in a canyon this weekend, the first thing I noticed was that you have to start the rigging differently. In nearly every rigging I use regularly, the first step is to put the rope through the quick link, and feed enough rope for the rappel through the quick link. You don't want to do that with the fiddlestick. Instead, you feed just a few feet through the quick link (or around the natural anchor) and throw the bag down immediately as the rappel strand. In addition to feeling a bit weird to be rappelling on the bag side, one major issue of the fiddlestick with a group using 8-like devices (like the Pirana, ATS, etc) is that the rope twists can't come out at the bottom -- they just bunch up against the bag. This one downside alone will probably prevent me from using the fiddlestick regularly, but I'd imagine it wouldn't be a problem for a group that uses ATCs/sticht plates/bobbins/racks exclusively.


I'm not at all concerned about release danger for everyone but LAMAR. For the rest of my group, I simply put a figure 8 on a bight on the short end of the rope and clipped it to the anchor with a carabiner. If there was no anchor, I would just clip it to the rappel/bag rope for nearly the same effect (with some extra redirect tension). This safety is quick and easy to install and remove and is, as far as I can tell, pretty foolproof.


For LAMAR, I could imagine there might be some nailbiting at the prospect of the fiddlestick falling out of the rigging at an inopportune time. But, under the conditions I tested the rigging, these fears seem to be relatively unfounded. I used a 1/2" diameter, 12" long aluminum rod as my fiddlestick with both a soft Edelweiss 10mm canyon rope and a stiffer Imlay Canyonero rope and I didn't think the fiddlestick would come out under any reasonable circumstances. My team shook the rigging a lot while setting up which knocked the fiddlestick against rocks, but after snugging down the stone knot, the fiddlestick stayed put with both rope types tested. As Tom has said himself, the fiddlestick can fall out. But I'm personally comfortable with this risk given the appropriate amount of vigilance.


The fiddlestick is extremely unlikely to come out while the system is weighted (like most releasable riggings), so the big concern is unweighting during rappel and setup. I don't think static forces from most drops are likely to pull out the fiddlestick when it is unweighted during rappel (though I would change my mind if the pull strand were in running water), so I plan to focus mainly on the release-during-setup issue. To mitigate this risk, I (as LAMAR) connect my rappel device to the rappel strand before undoing the safety. That way if the fiddlestick falls out, I'll lose the pull strand but not the rappel strand, and my partners at the bottom can simply tie the pull strand to the rappel strand so that I can retrieve it. This introduces an additional risk if the fiddlestick falls out and then the rappel strand gets pulled (if someone at the bottom decided to pull wildly on all strands available, as might perhaps happen on the last rappel in Mystery for instance), but I think this additional risk is foreseeable and avoidable.


Another consideration in fiddlestick usage is where along the fiddlestick to center the stone knot. It seemed to me that I wanted to position it pretty close to the pull side of the fiddlestick so that there is a lot of buffer for the fiddlestick to wiggle its way out of the stone knot from tension vibration on the pull strand. But, I also wanted a longer lever arm to make retrieval easier, and I didn't want the knot to fall off the other side of the fiddlestick either. Both these considerations led me to feel most comfortable centering the stone knot 1/4 to 1/3 of the fiddlestick length from the pull side of the fiddlestick. I'd be interested to hear if anyone has different ideas about where to center the knot.


In all, I think this is a great tool that I'm thrilled to have in my toolbox. I don't expect to use it a whole lot using 8's in the San Gabriels, but I can see why it would be a primary rigging for someone who uses ATCs in sandstone canyons with few established anchors.

[Mountaineer]

The primary unique advantage I see to a fiddlestick setup is that only one unknotted, unlooped strand of rope needs to be pulled around the anchor when retrieving the system. The only other setup I'm aware of that has a characteristic similar to this is the Buckle, and the Buckle has many possible ways to rig it incorrectly in ghost mode -- basically, I perceive the Buckle to be more finicky than a fiddlestick. This single-strand-around-anchor characteristic would be very useful when using large natural anchors, or natural anchors with lots of friction, and I wouldn't hesitate to seriously consider a fiddlestick in these cases. I also don't know of a better way to rig a fixed (not retrievable) quick link anchor to avoid rope grooves.



There are others. For example, the Omnisling.

[bjp]

There are others. For example, the Omnisling.

The omnisling pulls the omnisling around the anchor rather than a clean strand of rope or webbing. Perhaps a small difference, but it still has more pockets to hang up on small obstacles. But point taken -- the omnisling has a relatively clean pull around the anchor relative to many other riggings.

Separately, the rappel side of an omnisling releasable has a bunch of bulky stuff on it (carabiner, figure 8 block, two strands of rope) with a potential to catch on something if the anchor is away from the edge. By contrast, the fiddlestick setup only has the fiddlestick to catch on things when retrieving. And there's no need to untie a well-weighted knot from the fiddlestick :)

But it does seem less likely for an omnisling to accidentally release, so perhaps the fiddlestick isn't better on all counts.

[bjp]

Tom, would you be willing to post the dimensions (specifically thickness and width) of the Fiddlestick you sell? Also, is it polycarbonate?

[ratagonia]

Tom, would you be willing to post the dimensions (specifically thickness and width) of the Fiddlestick you sell? Also, is it polycarbonate?

Good comments and evaluation, BJ.

The Imlay Canyon Gear FiddleStick is 1/4" polycarbonate x 1" x 9". All edges are generously broken using a belt sander, and a rough texture left on that.

I think making it longer gets in the way. I had been using a 16" x 1/2" Easton Tent pole segment, and in some cases it did not set up well because it was too long.

Why the Rectangular Lexan? There is a balance required between the stick and the slip. This size and material seems to have about the correct balance. Lexan has good engineering characteristics and is tough, and readily available on the marketplace in small quantities.

I highly recommend AGAINST using a FiddleStick in flowing water conditions, even as benign as the last rap in Mystery. Flowing water could result in undesirable forces on the pull side.

Omnisling: The Omnisling itself is quite heavy and expensive. It is of a specific length, and cannot be used around larger objects. It softens up with use, and 'wears out'. The release of the Omnisling is controlled by the friction characteristics of the rope against the webbing, and will be different under different conditions, enough so that a reliable release across a wide range of conditions is not attained. With small ropes, the Omnisling CAN capsize and fail disastrously.

And, as you pointed out, when pulling the Omnisling, there is more junk that can catch on stuff.

Essentially, the FiddleStick is better in all respects to the Omnisling.

Tom

[Mountaineer]

Omnisling: The Omnisling itself is quite heavy and expensive. It is of a specific length, and cannot be used around larger objects. It softens up with use, and 'wears out'. The release of the Omnisling is controlled by the friction characteristics of the rope against the webbing, and will be different under different conditions, enough so that a reliable release across a wide range of conditions is not attained. With small ropes, the Omnisling CAN capsize and fail disastrously.

And, as you pointed out, when pulling the Omnisling, there is more junk that can catch on stuff.

Essentially, the FiddleStick is better in all respects to the Omnisling.



Good points Tom, only a couple of things I would add. I've successfully used the FiddleStick principle (a piece of roughed up PVC), and also have used the Omnisling method. So, not defending or favoring one over the other. They both have the advantage of minimizing rope grooves. They both require special attention to minimize risk.

The Omnisling can be extended for larger objects with webbing and a rapid. Although you could forgo the rapid, I suppose, the potential of the rope getting stuck in the mechanism may be greater. Not critical, since when you pull/release, the webbing/rapid side comes straight down and does not go around the anchor. Only the Omnisling goes around the anchor. And if hazard strikes and it got stuck, you can still pull your rope through while the Omnisling remains behind.


Here is one example of rigging an extension:

65006


You also don't typically use a pull cord with the Omnisling, you use the same rope. However, you need half the rope with the FiddleStick (the other half is a potentially smaller diameter pull cord).

Interesting about the softening with use, release, and small rope caveats. I haven't observed them, but I read them with care and thanks. I have used 8mm rope without any problem. I have been sure to make the loop large. Many use two loops. But more importantly to the point, I trust in their relevance so best to take them seriously.

I look forward to further learning all the points of caution for the FiddleStick, some of which may be captured in this thread.

[Aj84737]

Good points Tom, only a couple of things I would add. I've successfully used the FiddleStick principle (a piece of roughed up PVC), and also have used the Omnisling method. So, not defending or favoring one over the other. They both have the advantage of minimizing rope grooves. They both require special attention to minimize risk.

The Omnisling can be extended for larger objects with webbing and a rapid. Although you could forgo the rapid, I suppose, the potential of the rope getting stuck in the mechanism may be greater. Not critical, since when you pull/release, the webbing/rapid side comes straight down and does not go around the anchor. Only the Omnisling goes around the anchor. And if hazard strikes and it got stuck, you can still pull your rope through while the Omnisling remains behind.


Here is one example of rigging an extension:

65006


You also don't typically use a pull cord with the Omnisling, you use the same rope. However, you need half the rope with the FiddleStick (the other half is a potentially smaller diameter pull cord).

Interesting about the softening with use, release, and small rope caveats. I haven't observed them, but I read them with care and thanks. I have used 8mm rope without any problem. I have been sure to make the loop large. Many use two loops. But more importantly to the point, I trust in their relevance so best to take them seriously.

I look forward to further learning all the points of caution for the FiddleStick, some of which may be captured in this thread.

Nice picture of a way to extend that. However I don't think all your electrical work is up to code. Haha

[Mountaineer]

However I don't think all your electrical work is up to code. Haha

Nope! Just extra wires, not hot. :lol8:

[bretoyce]

If you put a few half hitches at the distal end of the fiddlestick using the lanyard provided it helps mitigate risk, keeping the fiddlestick in place all except LAMAR.:2thumbs:
65054

[deagol]

This is an old thread, but worth reviving IMO. There were claims here that people would die using the Fiddlestick. Now that 2013 is winding down, does anyone know of any Fiddlestick induced rappel accidents? There are none that I have heard of..

At the beginning of the year, I was aware of the idea in development but had no idea that I would use it. I did finally use it with a friend and was far more comfortable with it than I believed I ever would be. Later, I stumbled upon the Smooth Operator version from Blue Gnome and it addressed most of the safety issues that people have mentioned here. I have now used that version extensively this year and am sold on the idea. I most recently used it on my last canyon trip with a group of four. Having a heavier rappeler go down prior to me (I was LAPAR) cinched the knot up very nicely. The stick was not easy at all to pull out (in a good way) and I was very pleased to learn that based on the pull force needed, there was a very small chance of unintended release. I was like "wow, I am really glad that it was this hard to pull the Smooth Operator out".

For all but LAPAR, the safety biners in the Smooth Operator prevent it from falling out of a properly dressed knot- even if it does get pushed up against something. Another advantage associated with rigging this way is that you can place a rope protector on your rope where it crosses an edge. Since the rope doesn't need to be pulled back through a rapid for retrieval (in fact, the rope "downhill" from the knot doesn't even need to go back around the anchor at all), a rope protector can easily stay in place and protect your rope from the rock and also protect the rock from your rope.

One difference between rigging these two devices is that the Smooth Operator uses a pull cord that ties directly into the stick. This can be done with the safety biners still in place. This allows you to deploy the pull cord prior to LAPAR. This is good so prior rappelers can set it out of the way while it is still locked in place and can't release. The LAPAR doesn't have to mess with it or worry about stepping on it if it was deployed by prior person correctly.

Another benefit to tieing in directly is that when you do pull it down, there is no carabiner. This means that there isn't a lot of weight or force generated by just the stick and the cord. The stick kind of catches the air a little and comes down gently and can sometimes even be caught. You can stuff the pull cord and leave the stick tied to it while someone else starts stuffing the rope. No biners or knots to undo- fast and easy. The thicker Lexan of the Smooth Operator is bomber strong, too.

Caveats: I agree that it wouldn't be good to use in flowing water and also it is good to rig your device to not twist the rope (if you have that option).

At the beginning of 2013, I never thought I would be signing the praises of these devices, but at the end of the year, here I am doing just that.. and I am thankful to those who have spent the time developing these techniques and have shared them with the rest of us.

[ratagonia]

Not even a reasonable comparison. You got "user error" versus "inherently dangerous".

Ever seen ANY piece of climbing and/or rappelling and/or canyoneering equipment commercially sold with the following in its product literature?:

Even when used properly, it has the possibility of failing, resulting in severe injury or death, or being stranded in a canyon with your ropes hopelessly stuck.

I wonder how many retailers will carry it? The smart ones won't touch it.

Actually, all climbing equipment carries this warning, though perhaps not stated in quite so forward a manner.

Tom

[oldno7]

I've also come to a conclusion for 2013........

Get out of the house as much as possible--Houses have been known to cause death!!

So for those keeping score:

Fiddlestick deaths-0

Staying at home deaths-2

It's all about the odds and being able to stack those in your favor.

Life is what you make of it--mitigate your risk and carry on.

When it's your time, theres much worse instruments of death than ropes/sticks and canyon's.

[Iceaxe]

^^^THIS^^^


Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[Brian in SLC]

Actually, all climbing equipment carries this warning, though perhaps not stated in quite so forward a manner.

Naw...not really. Warning that the activity is inherently dangerous...not the equipment. Big difference.

Hope to see you at Jane's on the 21st?

[deagol]

OK, so what I am seeing is that nobody died from the Fiddlestick this year, despite all the dire predictions ....

There is another thread here where some people predict that people are going to get hurt doing guided rappels, too.
There is a Chicken Little phenomenon going on

[Brian in SLC]

OK, so what I am seeing is that nobody died from the Fiddlestick this year, despite all the dire predictions ....

There is another thread here where some people predict that people are going to get hurt doing guided rappels, too.
There is a Chicken Little phenomenon going on

Nah...people read these threads and become aware.

I'm damn glad to not have to even ponder the concept of "I told you so."

The sky is falling the sky is falling...

[jman]

Naw...not really. Warning that the activity is inherently dangerous...not the equipment. Big difference.

Hope to see you at Jane's on the 21st?

True!

Well I hope you like our Fiddlestick 101 video that will be published later tonight then. ;)

It explicitly says that "the device is inherently dangerous - if the stick is bumped, falls out, removed, slides out intentionally or unintentionally - the rappeller WILL fall".



-Brett

[Iceaxe]

"the device is inherently dangerous - if the stick is bumped, falls out, removed, slides out intentionally or unintentionally - the rappeller WILL DIE".

FTFY

[oval]

2 things on this:

1- Polycarbonate becomes brittle with exposure to sunlight. There is no way I would keep this for longer than 1 year, especially in Utah. In fact, 7075 aluminum would be WAY better, IMO.

2- Seems that the stick is too long. Much more of a chance of getting pushed out from pressure against a rock, from how it looks. Of course, too short and it can fall out too.

Interesting and with potential uses. Bold to mass-manufacture this.

[ratagonia]

2 things on this:

1- Polycarbonate becomes brittle with exposure to sunlight. There is no way I would keep this for longer than 1 year, especially in Utah. In fact, 7075 aluminum would be WAY better, IMO.

2- Seems that the stick is too long. Much more of a chance of getting pushed out from pressure against a rock, from how it looks. Of course, too short and it can fall out too.

Interesting and with potential uses. Bold to mass-manufacture this.


Not sure how much sunlight it will get, being inside my pack most of the time.

I have used sticks of different lengths, and the 9" UNIT seems about right to me. The location of the stick can be varied by placing the Stone Knot in the optimum place - there is a lot of room for placing the knot wherever. One of the considerations of knot location is to keep the Stick away from constrictions, slots and places that could possibly push it out.

Thank you for your comments. After you have done a couple hundred raps using the FiddleStick, your comments will be more valuable than they are now.

Tom

http://tedxtalks.ted.com/video/The-beauty-of-boldness-Yiannis

[deagol]

Tom,

Are you going to offer Fiddlestick sunblock anytime soon ?

[oval]

Thank you for your comments. After you have done a couple hundred raps using the FiddleStick, your comments will be more valuable than they are now.

Tom

http://tedxtalks.ted.com/video/The-beauty-of-boldness-Yiannis

Hey, it's ok. I work with polycarbonate and other plastics on a daily basis. It's my profession. No need to use it at all to know what I know about plastics. I don't know if it is more scary that you don't care about brittleness factor of polycarbonate or that you try to negate any comments unless your product has been used.

I haven't used YOUR product, but I do use polycarbonate on a daily basis and I see it fail from use in human weight applications. FAIL. I would never touch this. Just my opinion. Feel free to disregard or negate but my opinion on this plastic in this role is likely far more valuable than anything that has been said in this thread to this point.

[Felicia]

Hey, it's ok. I work with polycarbonate and other plastics on a daily basis. It's my profession. No need to use it at all to know what I know about plastics.

I've had my stick for about nine months. I used it for the first time this past weekend. I would estimate that my stick has seen 45 minutes of sunlight. If, as Tom says, the FiddleStick spends most of the time in the pack, how much sunlight is too much sunlight?

Felicia

[Deathcricket]

My heart dropped when I saw this thread bumped. I thought "it finally happened, I wonder who the poor sap was". I'd glad I was wrong!

For the record, building your house under a scary cliff with huge rocks overhead, and then being sad when said rock falls on your house and kills you, is an accurate analogy to using the fiddlestick. it's only a matter of time and gravity. I approve this comparison!

Edit: I would also like a "danger graph" of number of people who build their house under huge boulders and people who actually use the fiddlestick. We could get some interesting stats going :) Maybe using a fiddlesticks is even safer than smoking, playing in traffic, piercing your genitals? Curious minds want to know. It's definitely not safer than building your house under a huge boulder. At least we learned that in 2013....

[deagol]

I gotta disagree...

In fact, I think the Chicken Little thing RE the Fiddlestick is ridiculous.
The house under a rock face, that's a different story.

Back to the Fiddlestick: it's been said before, but the Smooth Operator is quite a bit stouter and has safety biners that hold it on for all but LAPAR. It does require a good amount of pull to release the knot, and It comes down pretty light when pulled and doesn't seem to get subjected to much force. This material also gets used in bullet resistant glass and doesn't sit in the sun for hours on end. It's only in the sun for as long as setting up and retrieving your rappel...

[Brian in SLC]

I gotta disagree...

In fact, I think the Chicken Little thing RE the Fiddlestick is ridiculous.

Really? Why?

I think its a neat-o trick/device that should be employed by a very select group of folks, in very select circumstances. Not something that should be part of a standard canyoning "kit". Maybe the type of device thats talked about and seen around the campfire, late at night, in hushed tones. Produced from under the counter at a shop, only when requested after a person has been a bit vetted for saavy. Sold along side a rope or a pack, to be considered as something to have by a person just getting into the sport? Kinda like how bolt kits used to be sold (ha ha). Caveat emptor.

And, its good to have a little bit of push back and balance to the koolaid out there.

Inherently dangerous. That's what the tag says. Use it at your own risk I suppose. Its all good 'til it ain't.

On a side note, I thought some of the history of this little film was interesting...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vnp4kj5lLOU

[Iceaxe]

Putting on my engineering hat...... Actually the hat was already on as I'm a structural engineer by trade and do this shit all day every day.....



I've had my stick for about nine months. I used it for the first time this past weekend. I would estimate that my stick has seen 45 minutes of sunlight. If, as Tom says, the FiddleStick spends most of the time in the pack, how much sunlight is too much sunlight?

It's a lot more then hours in the sun......

Time-to-failure of polymers, and the actual failure mode, are influenced by stress, temperature, processing history, molecular weight, aging, exposure to solvents, yada, yada.....



This material also gets used in bullet resistant glass and doesn't sit in the sun for hours on end. It's only in the sun for as long as setting up and retrieving your rappel...

Ballistic glass (bullet resistant glass) is a different animal for many reasons. Ballistic glass is usually harmed by exposure to solvents, temperature and UV radiation (sunlight). The polycarbonate layer that makes up the ballistic glass is normally sandwiched between layers of tinted glass. The tinted glass (think of the lens in your sunglasses) offers protection from 99% of UV radiation.

When ballistic glass works (is hit by a bullet) it actually fails, but by design it fails in a controlled and predictable manner. When a polymer fiddlestick fails it will not be controlled or predictable.


FWIW: If I were in the habit of using a fiddlestick mine would be made of aluminum flat bar. That instantly eliminates many of the concerns with the polymer fiddlestick. You can purchase the required aluminum bar for a couple of bucks at Home-Depot or Lowes.

YMMV

[Iceaxe]

On a side note, I thought some of the history of this little film was interesting...

Cocky-Locky... head man, supervisor, chicken inspector.......

:roflol: :roflol: :roflol:

[deagol]

Hopefully no one is shooting bullets at Fiddlesticks....
The only point about the material is its pretty strong for pretty light weight. It doesn't need to stop bullets.

[hank moon]

Items other than the Fiddlestick and Smooth Operator that are made of Polycarbonate:

- Lenses for eyeglasses and safety glasses
- Climbing helmets
- Industrial face shields
- Police riot shields
- Windshields for small vehicles
- The cockpit canopy of the F22 fighter jet

[Iceaxe]

Items other than the Fiddlestick and Smooth Operator that are made of Polycarbonate:

- Lenses for eyeglasses and safety glasses
- Climbing helmets
- Industrial face shields
- Police riot shields
- Windshields for small vehicles
- The cockpit canopy of the F22 fighter jet

Interesting to note how all the items you listed are designed to fail upon impact (of varying degrees) in a controlled and predictable manner.

:cool2:

[hank moon]

Actually, all climbing equipment carries this warning, though perhaps not stated in quite so forward a manner.

Tom

True, though most don't consider the implications of the warnings. Climbing gear fails every year, and this is accepted as part of the activity. Thanks, Tom, for being more up-front than most.

My favorite disclaimer (Fish Products:)

http://www.fishproducts.com/miscpages/dying.html

[hank moon]

I am curious how one can be concerned about the failure of one polycarbonate item, yet have no similar concern about (for example) a polycarbonate climbing helmet?

[hank moon]

Interesting to note how all the items you listed are designed to fail upon impact (of varying degrees) in a controlled and predictable manner.



Si, pero...they are also designed to resist failure from impact, up to a point. AFAIK the only significant impact a Fiddlestick is designed to withstand is the impact against hard surfaces after a successful pull. If it fails then, so what?

[Bootboy]

I for one, am upgrading to 3/8" polycarbonate from 1/4"

[deagol]

I for one, am upgrading to 3/8" polycarbonate from 1/4"

that's what BluuGnome uses
http://www.bluugnome.com/cyn_how-to/gear/smooth-operator/smooth-operator_make.aspx

when it comes down after a pull, only the stick and the pull cord weight (no carabiner) combine to create impact force. Some of this is mitigated by the fact that the pull cord comes down like a noodle. The stick comes down with all the thundering force of a few pounds?.. probably would give you an annoying bonk on the head when pulled if it hit you there (without a helmet). We did a pull from about 200 feet and it fell to the ground relatively lightly. I think not having a carabiner on it helps.

Here is the start of a rappel (almost 200' ?) showing the rap rope protected with a rope protector and using a Smooth Operator around a tree. 6mm pull cord on right. 71196

Here is the view from just over the edge: note ledge w/ pothole about 70' (??) down and people at bottom 71197

Here is view from the ledge. Smooth Operator had been rapped on 3 times prior an was very solid, did not budge when rap rope un-weighted due to standing on this ledge. 71198

pull, notice it took a bit of tugging (it doesn't show that they were tugging for a good bit before the start point of the vid).

http://vimeo.com/82244976

[Exergy]

Items other than the Fiddlestick and Smooth Operator that are made of Polycarbonate:

- cockpit canopy of the F22 fighter jet

As the engineer responsible for the windscreens and canopies on 4 DoD jet aircraft I can assure you the design, initial qualification, recurring inspection and retirement requirements for aircraft transparencies are significant. Those claimed for the fiddlestick are trivial or nonexistent. A few hundred raps over a couple years is statistically insignificant and doesn't account for the myriad of ways the public can subject an item to conditions the designer never anticipated.

All of these other items have strict qualification standards based on multiple-thousands of tests.

Fine, use the fiddlestick concept. But it's irresponsible and arrogant of ICG to lead the masses into believing that dropping lots of canyons creates a materials expert. What's the weight penalty for aluminum, 2-3 ounces? No brainer.

[SRG]

Since I've never used a fiddlestick I feel it's my duty to weigh in.:haha:

Shall we stop using webbing, as it is also significantly weakend by UV radiation?
Shit, if we humans get too much sun we'll die. Maybe we should stay outta canyons too? :naughty:

But seriously though, being familiar with your gear and its limitations is the name of the game.

Also, anecdotal evidence on either side doesn't suffice... I'd like to see lots of testing and numbers.
Exergy really seems like he knows what he's talking about, Tom's a very smart dude too... but until we see the numbers it's just faith in one side or the other .
-Sam

[SRG]

Although he might like it, it is true that I have never played with Tom's fiddlestick :nono:

This jab only makes sense in the context of gay being "less than" straight. This is a discussion about canyoneering anchors. Please save your derisive comments about homosexuality for elsewhere.

[ratagonia]

I for one, am upgrading to 3/8" polycarbonate from 1/4"

So am I, actually. Unfortunate that polycarbonate sheet is not offered in 5/16", which would be ideal.

Tom

[ratagonia]

As the engineer responsible for the windscreens and canopies on 4 DoD jet aircraft I can assure you the design, initial qualification, recurring inspection and retirement requirements for aircraft transparencies are significant. Those claimed for the fiddlestick are trivial or nonexistent. A few hundred raps over a couple years is statistically insignificant and doesn't account for the myriad of ways the public can subject an item to conditions the designer never anticipated.

All of these other items have strict qualification standards based on multiple-thousands of tests.

Fine, use the fiddlestick concept. But it's irresponsible and arrogant of ICG to lead the masses into believing that dropping lots of canyons creates a materials expert. What's the weight penalty for aluminum, 2-3 ounces? No brainer.

Since you work in the socialist part of the economy, the cost of testing is not a consideration. EACH windscreen/canopy for a modern DOD jet probably costs more than my entire budget for one year. It's easy to do a thorough and really good job of testing when you are playing with someone else's dollars.

But really, the problem is determining what tests to make and how to test them, and how to set realistic standards. I held off on producing the FiddleStick for quite some time, until I thought we had it dialed.

I just don't understand HOW you are expecting it to fail. If you would like to explain what failure mode you are most concerned about, I could carefully consider and test for that. Please advise.

What are your credentials again?

Here are mine:

BS in Mechanical Engineering from MIT (1982)

17 years experience designing and testing climbing equipment, 12 of which were at Black Diamond, the USA's #1 manufacturer of climbing equipment, at least by volume.

6 years as the USA's #1 manufacturer of canyoneering equipment.

I am certainly well known for my arrogance.

Dropping a lot of canyons does not make anyone a materials expert. Exhibit A: Ram.

Tom

[Exergy]

This jab only makes sense in the context of gay being "less than" straight. This is a discussion about canyoneering anchors. Please save your derisive comments about homosexuality for elsewhere.

Misfire on the homophobs witch hunt! The jab can make just as much sense in a straight context. i.e. if Rosanne Barr had invented a plastic ATC called the FiddleClam and I said:
Although she might like it, it is true that I have never played with Rosanne's fiddleclam :nono:

It has nothing to do with orientation.

[Exergy]

Since you work in the socialist part of the economy, the cost of testing is not a consideration. It's easy to do a thorough and really good job of testing when you are playing with someone else's dollars.

Cost is definitely a consideration as congress doesn't wants to spend money on these 40-50 year old jets but there is an expectation to keep a mishap rate in line with the rest of DoD. Testing can be expensive if hired out, research is usually cheaper so a lot of effort is put into researching the work done by others. Organizations such as SAE and ASM International are good resources. Research can skinny up test requirements.

Here is an example of research performed by SAE on the effects of sunscreen on three different blends of polycarbonate (because not all polycarbonates are the same). Not sure if you've seen it.
http://delphi.com/pdf/techpapers/2011-01-0037.pdf


EACH windscreen/canopy for a modern DOD jet probably costs more than my entire budget for one year.

Probably right. I suspect the potential market limits the amount one would spend on accelerated testing. However, budget isn't justification for premature fielding of a life support product.


But really, the problem is determining what tests to make and how to test them, and how to set realistic standards. I held off on producing the FiddleStick for quite some time, until I thought we had it dialed.

I just don't understand HOW you are expecting it to fail. If you would like to explain what failure mode you are most concerned about, I could carefully consider and test for that. Please advise.

The problem is more than initial qualification testing.
- What constitutes an unacceptable defect
- How does one inspect the fiddlestick for hairline fractures that can develop http://www.mate.tue.nl/mate/pdfs/12930.pdf
- Will surface-scuffing hide internal defects
- What level of hazing and crazing is acceptable (again, hidden by surface scuffing)
- How does one know when the material properties have degraded to an unacceptable level
- Without cause other than time in service, when does one retire an apparently good fiddlestick

Several other concerns have already been stated and gone unanswered. Not sure why I would take the time to restate only to have the questions ignored. Any further assistance and I can PM my paypal.



What are your credentials again?

Here are mine:

BS in Mechanical Engineering from MIT (1982)

17 years experience designing and testing climbing equipment, 12 of which were at Black Diamond, the USA's #1 manufacturer of climbing equipment, at least by volume.

6 years as the USA's #1 manufacturer of canyoneering equipment.

Not sure what this proves either way, but you show me yours and I'll show you mine

BS in ME, USU (2001)
Licensed Professional Engineer (2008)
Licensed Structural Engineer (2008)

Aircraft Mechanical Systems Engineer (2000-2005)
Aircraft Structural Integrity Engineer (2005-2008)
Aircraft Safety Engineer (2008-2010)
Chief Engineer for 4 DoD Aircraft (2010-2013)

Multiple 40 hour continuing education classes such as:
Failure Analysis (ASM International)

Have had the opportunity to serve as the technical lead on 6 catastrophic mishaps to include picking up body parts.
Reviewed hundreds of mishap reports going back to 1972, including cases where the windscreen or canopy failed

Did Black Diamond make any man weight rated gear from polycarbonate while you were with them; what happened to it; again, rope isn't a single point failure item since it has multiple strands

All other advertised ICG gear is made from off the shelf products and from recognized/accepted practice. It appears ICG is acting alone in manufacturing a man weight supporting product from polycarbonate and I suspect it's not because nobody else has thought of it. Rather, I suspect others have done enough research to know it's a bad idea.


I am certainly well known for my arrogance.

Arrogance is only cool if you're always right, like Clint Eastwood. If others get hurt because of your arrogance it's uncool and only makes you out to be a fool.

[TommyBoy]

Doesn't the knot itself reduce the amount of stress that gets put on the fiddlestick so that it is less than the full weight of the rappeller? It would be interesting to see a test of the stress levels the device gets put under when someone is actually on rope. BTW I have no credentials to back up my statement, I'm just curious. Also since its an advanced tool the only people who should be using it should be able to rappel in such a manner that they aren't bouncing around and adding additional unnecessary stress to the device.

[ratagonia]

Doesn't the knot itself reduce the amount of stress that gets put on the fiddlestick so that it is less than the full weight of the rappeller? It would be interesting to see a test of the stress levels the device gets put under when someone is actually on rope. BTW I have no credentials to back up my statement, I'm just curious. Also since its an advanced tool the only people who should be using it should be able to rappel in such a manner that they aren't bouncing around and adding additional unnecessary stress to the device.

In a sense, you are correct. The stress on the stick is not easy to calculate, nor easy to measure. It is a bending force and there are all sorts of significant friction forces to take account of.

If one wanted to measure the stress, the best way would be to apply force on the rappelling rope until the stick breaks, then apply stress in a simpler, model geometry until it break, and that would tell you the bending stress that broke the stick.

Ascii free body diagram:

........................V.................V
===================================
...............................^... ^


Tom

[DesertDuke]

BS in ME, USU (2001)


Exergy wins.....if nothing else just for being an Aggie! (just had to throw that in as I am watching my Aggies play in a bowl game as I type this. Go Aggies!)

[Iceaxe]

Also since its an advanced tool the only people who should

ADVANCED is not the term I'd use to describe some of the folks that are currently using the fiddlestick... which is one of the major concerns of several knowledge canyoneers.



Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[TommyBoy]

That's why I said should. It doesn't matter what you sell, as you said in the thread about GPS usage if you don't know how to use it, it won't help and can even hurt you. That doesn't mean that we should stop selling gps units though just because some people are using them and getting lost. Same with the FS, there is a warning on the product and if you use it you accept the responsibility of using it correctly

[Iceaxe]

True dat'

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[Skeeter]

I remember reading somewhere about a guy testing the fiddlestick in his garage. He replaced the fiddlestick with a #2 pencil. He was able to hold almost 200#s on a pencil. Now compare that to 3/8 lexan... Not to mention the overall surface area of the stick is quite small so I can't see much deflection going on here.

I just don't see what the big deal is, the fiddlestick never even sees full body weight. A version made of alloy seems like it would get all marred up, and in turn bugger the rope.

Did a local canyon yesterday fiddled three drops, a tool that will always come with me now, especially in canyons with little to no beta. I guess in the end it's up to the user. I use one, so I must not be under the impression that this thing is gonna kill me do to catastrophic failure. My .02
Skye

[dweaver2130]

True, though most don't consider the implications of the warnings. Climbing gear fails every year, and this is accepted as part of the activity. Thanks, Tom, for being more up-front than most.

My favorite disclaimer (Fish Products:)

http://www.fishproducts.com/miscpages/dying.html


From the same webpage, found it interesting.



The text portions of the Weenie Pages are easily available to anyone who does a search on the web. I used to keep what was of interest to me that I found on rec.climbing, and I additionally went out to find more info via GoogleGroups. These days most of the good stuff is well hidden on various Internet Forums. Hopefully you will find something of interest here or maybe even learn something. I sure did. This is a boil-down of around 4000 posts. Even my bad math says that 97.4% of the newsgroups info is crap. Remember this when you do your own search for info...just because it is "there" does not mean it is true, factual, proper, or even an honest post. After wading through this muck for a while I narrowed my searches to people that really know what they are talking about....It boiled down to about a handful.
Special thanks to Clyde Soles formerly of Rock and Ice (http://www.rockandice.com/) Magazine and to Chris Harmston (retired) and Tom Jones of Black Diamond (http://www.bdel.com/).
These guys really know what they are talking about.