Thoughts about Canyon Collective?

[Kuya]

Just curious to hear your thoughts about the new website Canyon Collective. It seems like it is a bit like Bogley, just that it is limited to Canyoneering info and beta only IMHO.

http://canyoncollective.com/

[2065toyota]

I've read a bit and posted 1 report on there. I'm excited to see how it evolves. It shouldn't have the drama that Bogley has, but drama is fun sometimes also

[Iceaxe]

It shouldn't have the drama that Bogley has,

Hahaha.... how do you figure? One of the biggest drama queens in canyoneering is running the show. And I see they plan to run a tight ship which always creates major drama when a post gets moderated.

I've been part of three canyon forum's over the past 15 years. When they start out they are small, warm and fuzzy, made up mostly of friends. As they grow and gather a large diverse base and following they become more difficult to manage with a wider range of views. Its just the nature of the beast.

I'm just really surprised to see one of the biggest supporters of show-don't-tell switching over to spraying beta.... welcome to the dark side.... hahaha... That should be a good thing. As far as I'm concerned there is no such thing as too much canyon beta.

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[Deathcricket]

Ice pretty much nailed my thoughts exactly. I think they always had a problem with control, or more specifically lack of control and censorship. So them making their own environment that they have complete control over is a good thing. To each his own and I wish them well. My only regret is they didn't make an "I'm leaving, please delete all my posts, and refund my bogley membership" thread. Those are my favorite!

I will miss Dan's pics though. Guy was an extremely talented photographer.

[jman]

It will be good to have a centralized canyoneering place for the world, as far as beta goes. It will be good for newbs as it grow in content.

Bogley is different because really anything goes and you can post things are not canyon-related in a canyon thread and be a racist too (inside joke). I kid I kid.

Yahoo has LOT of archived beta and TRs, and Bogley has 7+ years of TRs and discussion. Personally I wouldn't mind seeing a change in the format. Such as the forum aspect, but as stickies get posted, they get ignored and take up a space. A web base format along with forum would be good. The web format could include tips by members on various outdoor things and they stay on the page compared to being pushed down further and further into oblivion as new posts show up.

I have a ton of ideas on how to adapt and make Bogley stay fresh and active while keeping the "anything goes" feel (with user discretion and decency of course), which makes people come back for more. (I will be speaking with Sombeech and Accadacca over dinner jn March and talk about a few things to improve the site and keep active!

As Tom once said that stuck with me "Man shall not live by canyoneering alone". Bogley is great cause there are some many random threads (outdoors and not) that we get involved in.

[Iceaxe]

It will be good to have a centralized canyoneering place for the world, as far as beta goes.

Its good in theory.... but it will never happen... the rest of the world already has their beta sites and forums, so we are talking North America....

Yahoo will still keep it's fans, Bogley will keep theirs, ACA still has a following. Crowd Source beta has a lot of problems, the biggest being reliability and safety, so guide books and website's with reliable beta will still flourish.

People will check out the new and shiny, but in the end they will return to where they feel the most comfortable, where they find entertainment and where their friends are. CC isn't new, its just the canyoneering section of outdoorposts that had been repackaged and under new management. If it was all about bells and whistles yahoo would have been dead 10 years ago, but it just keeps trucking along.

YMMV


Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[jman]

Its good in theory.... but it will never happen... the rest of the world already has their beta sites and forums, so we are talking North America....

Yahoo will still keep it's fans, Bogley will keep theirs, ACA still has a following. Crowd Source beta has a lot of problems, the biggest being reliability and safety, so guide books and website's with reliable beta will still flourish.

People will check out the new and shiny, but in the end they will return to where they feel the most comfortable, where they find entertainment and where their friends are. CC isn't new, its just the canyoneering section of outdoorposts that had been repackaged and under new management. If it was all about bells and whistles yahoo would have been dead 10 years ago, but it just keeps trucking along.

YMMV


Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

Hmm, yea good point.

[rockgremlin]

Ice pretty much nailed my thoughts exactly. I think they always had a problem with control, or more specifically lack of control and censorship. So them making their own environment that they have complete control over is a good thing. To each his own and I wish them well. My only regret is they didn't make an "I'm leaving, please delete all my posts, and refund my bogley membership" thread. Those are my favorite!

I will miss Dan's pics though. Guy was an extremely talented photographer.


Ransom's runnin' the show? Pfffft! He doesn't have time to run a canyoneering forum.

He already has one of the most ass-kickinist photography websites in www.Danransom.com (http://www.Danransom.com), so it sounds to me like for him to start a canyon forum is just a blatant effort to snub the canyoneering section of Bogley. :fitz:

Either that or Ram has commissioned him to create an alternate canyoneering website that aims to do to Bogley what Bogley did to the Yahoo canyons forum. Payment in the form of beta, LOL.

Whatever the case, I can't figure out how you people find the time to visit/post to/administer more than 1 website. It's hard enough for me to troll the General Discussion thread and still have time leftover to eat.

[jman]

Ransom's runnin' the show? Pfffft! He doesn't have time to run a canyoneering forum.

He already has one of the most ass-kickinist photography websites in www.Danransom.com (http://www.Danransom.com), so it sounds to me like for him to start a canyon forum is just a blatant effort to snub the canyoneering section of Bogley. :fitz:

Either that or Ram has commissioned him to create an alternate canyoneering website that aims to do to Bogley what Bogley did to the Yahoo canyons forum. Payment in the form of beta, LOL.

Whatever the case, I can't figure out how you people find the time to visit/post to/administer more than 1 website. It's hard enough for me to troll the General Discussion thread and still have time leftover to eat.

Haha, the latter for sure.

Well, Tom has jumped ship it seems too.

The more time I think about the implications of another canyoneering forum (more to come in the future no doubt) is which ones will noobs turn to? Which ever which feels the most welcoming. Slot Machines flagellation of levifackrell was pretty harsh - he's probably not coming back. But he's apologized since then, but the damage is done.

And of course we can't forget the whoe Summit (Bill) and Nick's exit. Then they recruited via PM to members here to join Backcountrypost.

Man... So much drama. But there is definitely an axe to grind. An eternal ax. It's funny though, sure it's sad people leave but they are welcome backs anytime and we don't automatically parse links that have CC or Backcountrypost to pics of dog poo (like another forum has done). Ha ha Lol :fitz:

Anyways, your last comment of snub seems right at the superficial level.
However, CC has been in the making since 2009. The purpose was to have to a centralized, standardized forum for us North American canyoneers.

[Deathcricket]

Naw naw didn't mean to say he (Dan) was running the show. Just meant to say he's the one I'm going to miss. :haha:

I do have his blog bookmarked but I rarely visit it.

I think it's Tom and Ram's forum isn't it? Which is kinda weird when you think about it because a significant amount of Tom's posts are in the political forum. So to make a new website sans politics seems kinda weird to me, like outside his interests. *shrug*

[hank moon]

It's hard enough for me to troll the General Discussion thread and still have time leftover to eat.

finally, the truth

[Slot Machine]

Levi ... is probably not coming back.

63774

:haha::lol8::haha::lol8::haha:

[rockgremlin]

Anyways, your last comment of snub seems right at the superficial level.


Hehe...just the way I like it. :haha:

I can bust Dan's balls b'cuz I know him, and have been out with him on several occasions. It's all in fun. I miss him too, and I hope to see more of him around -- even if it's in the form of snubbing Bogley or busting my chops. I have a ton of respect and admiration for the guy, just wish he'd stay put long enough for me to do another canyon or two with him. Same goes for Ram and Tom for that matter.

[blueeyes]

Do you always eat at Olive Garden? Or only buy your clothes from JC Penny? Variety is a good thing. I like this forum, I like the new ones. All three offer something similar but different.

[rockgremlin]

Do you only buy your clothes from JC Penny?


Yes.

[blueeyes]

Yes.

This is explains a lot. :haha:

[BW123]

Hahaha.... how do you figure? One of the biggest drama queens in canyoneering is running the show. And I see they plan to run a tight ship which always creates major drama when a post gets moderated.

I've been part of three canyon forum's over the past 15 years. When they start out they are small, warm and fuzzy, made up mostly of friends. As they grow and gather a large diverse base and following they become more difficult to manage with a wider range of views. Its just the nature of the beast.

I'm just really surprised to see one of the biggest supporters of show-don't-tell switching over to spraying beta.... welcome to the dark side.... hahaha... That should be a good thing. As far as I'm concerned there is no such thing as too much canyon beta.

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

I wouldn't over-think it too much Shane. It is a 'evenly-moderated' forum. If someone doesn't like their personal attacks being moderated, then they can always find another forum like Bogley. It was created as a canyon-specific forum that would contain reliable and entertaining information, presented in a consistent and appealing manner.

K

[Kuya]

After using and contributing to Canyon Collective for a couple of weeks now, I am finding it to be very nice. I really like the layout and the standardization of the beta! One question I wonder about is what will this kind of site do to those people who are sellers of beta? I guess time will tell.

[Iceaxe]

One question I wonder about is what will this kind of site do to those people who are sellers of beta? I guess time will tell.

As a beta peddler my experience is it actually increases sales. I have several theories on why this occurs. But bottomline... the more information floating around, the more people pick up the sport, the more sales increase.

For those new to the game... The ACA, Summit Post and a few others provided crowd source beta of various quality for years. This is nothing new. The only thing that would make this time any different is if routes not currently on everyones radar begin to show up. Retracing route descriptions that have been public knowledge for years is no big gain for the canyon community.

As someone supplying beta to such a site I would be concerned with my legal responsibility. My biggest fear would be are you protected from a lawsuit? Most beta peddlers are set up as an LLC, which basically allows someone to bring litigation against the company but not the individual. Which really makes litigation a dead end as the LLC is usually worth very little, maybe a few dollars in a bank account and a computer. If someone brings legal action against you personally it could get very expensive without the LLC firewall. And they're not going to go after Dan, he don't own a pot to piss in.

My concern as a recreational canyoneer with regards to crowd sourced beta would be the quality of the beta, who is supplying the beta, who is accountable for the accuracy of the beta and other general safety concerns from too many cooks in the kitchen.

One other thing to consider.... and this viewing the subject through my rose colored seller glasses.... all the peddlers of beta that I know of use the money to increase their database with new routes that are not current public knowledge. So currently if you want new stuff to show up you might consider supporting those that actually bring the routes to the public. /end sales pitch

:cool2:

[ratagonia]

... all the peddlers of beta that I know of use the money to increase their database with new routes that are not current public knowledge. So currently if you want new stuff to show up you might consider supporting those that actually bring the routes to the public. /end sales pitch



Thank you Shane. Very nice of you to plug my site and business.

Tom :moses:

[jman]

One has to remember that one has to swallow their pride and remember to keep the " greater canyoneering good" in mind. There is a lot anti-Bogley sentiment floating around. And there is a anti-Canyon Collective, Anti-Shane, anti-Tom, etc.

But there are a ton of noobs out there and need help and assistance. It's okay to plug everyone's forum, beta sites, etc. I firmly believe in more information the better. Everyone is going to disagree, but again, people will always cling where they feel the most welcome, less-threatened, and get the most answers (regardless of its outdoor related or not).

[Slot Machine]

but again, people will always cling where they feel the most welcome, less-threatened, and get the most answers (regardless of its outdoor related or not).

Maybe. But probably not. :mrgreen:

I think that people go to the forum they prefer based on:

1. Entertainment, in the form of canyoneering eye candy and good stories. And occasional drama.
2. Usefulness, in the form of a community that is helpful at answering questions.
3. Good company, because everyone likes to hang with people they know.

and a distant fourth...

4. An overall feeling of friendliness.

They are all important, but not equally important as implied above. Just my 2 cents. :whistling:

[jman]

Maybe. But probably not. :mrgreen:

I think people go to the forum they prefer based on:

1. Entertainment, in the form of canyoneering eye candy and good stories. And occasional drama.
2. Usefulness, in the form of a community that is helpful at answering questions.
3. Good company, because everyone likes to hang with people they know.

and a distant fourth...

4. An overall feeling of friendliness.

They are all important, but not equally important as implied above. Just my 2 cents. :whistling:

I agree with most points you made, but....

If you only knew................................


I have received numerous PMs, personal emails, from members and members from other forums telling me the issues that they have with Bogley or its members. I get maybe 2-4 PMs or personal emails a week sent through Bogley to me taking about why this person is such a ass, and why they have to ruin it for everybody else. Or how come people don't respond to outdoor posts, and how come people won't tell them where a certain location is on BLM land, etc. I'm serious! I get a lot of emails about this stuff. And people confide in me because they know I care or at least will respond to them. I'm just a moderator of a few sections and I'm not the admin or owner or bogley, I'm not their dad, I can't resolve personal differences, etc. But that's how I receive it.

In fact Bob, I received a handful of emails about you and your response to the sad cow disease incident. They called you a hypocrite when you posted stuff of the Dante's and wanted help. Yeah yeah... It's the Internet and people need to not take things so seriously. Unfortunately that doesn't happen. And as a facilitator of the forum, I like to encourage positive and a helpful-ness attitude. It's all fine being funny, and being a smart-ass etc. Its fun, I do that all the time. I want to encourage viewership (and repeat-visitors) and increase interest into the diverse forums. I have learned so much from other people about the most random things and canyons, and outdoor related. And I would hate to lose that person from sharing information and having a good time with us due to the negativity or hostility or backlash they perceive in getting if posting.

Perception goes a LONGGGGG way. And it's hard to overcome if they already have a bias.

/soap-box

[Slot Machine]

I get maybe 2-4 PMs or personal emails a week sent through Bogley to me taking about why this person is such a ass, and why they have to ruin it for everybody else.

63844

Bret, easy man, easy. There are lots of rabble rousers around here. What about Byron, Deathcricket, hell... Iceaxe? Why not publicly post some private complaints about them? :nono: Don't want them to feel left out.

BTW, I like them all. And I don't think they are ruining anything. Shoot, I might doze off without them. :sleeping:

I'm also interested in Bogley's success. Don't worry. Like I said, I'll play nice. :mrgreen:

[Deathcricket]

*Ears perk up*

Oh it's this thread again. *yawn* Yeah Tom complained loudly to the mods several times about me. I think the best way I got under his skin was purposefully misquoting him. Which is funny because the stuff I misquoted him on was always nicer than the stuff he actually said. :lol8:

There, now you are not alone. Us bros gotta stick together. Maybe we should change this thread to our favorite ragers, that would be interesting! My favorites are the ones where they say "I quit, I'm back, now I seriously quit, ok now I'm back, and quit again". Like they are soo important and the world revolves around them or something. Just like I'm sure they are constantly browsing this thread and probably dieing to respond.

In the end, I agree it's just about where people feel more comfortable posting. And once people start getting called "dangerous" and myriads of other imagined offenses they won't be that comfortable posting. Here is a jem of an example. http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?64599 Although it's not as good because the offender went back and edited his posts after his meds kicked in. But if you look at people's quotes you can still make out clearly what was said. I'm sure at his new forum forum he's on his best behavior right now, but with an abrasive personality of this magnitude, it's only a matter of time before the cracks start poking through and his true personality kicks in. Patience my friend.

[Scott P]

Back to the original topic, both sites seem pretty different to me. Canyon Collective is for canyoneering only and has a section that members can add beta. It's more like summitpost.org than Bogley.

Bogley is a forum only with lots of stuff, but with a sub forum of canyoneering.

Other than they both have a canyoneering forum, the sites seem pretty much apples and oranges to me.

[rockgremlin]

Bret, easy man, easy. There are lots of rabble rousers around here. What about @Byron (http://www.bogley.com/forum/member.php?u=20436) , @Deathcricket (http://www.bogley.com/forum/member.php?u=278) , hell... @Iceaxe (http://www.bogley.com/forum/member.php?u=36) ?


pissed that I didn't make the list...pissed:

[Iceaxe]

If you guys haven't figured it out yet this is really little more than Yahoo Canyons finally parking their dinosaur and moving into a modern forum. CC is more about the death of Yahoo Canyons then anything else. Yahoo will starve and die unless Ram decides to keep feeding it. Same as the Yahoo Canyoneer forum (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyoneer/) did when we moved it to Bogley so many years ago. CC was described to me by one of those involved as "son of Yahoo Canyons".

I have expected the Yahoo move for a long time, my only responce would be "what took you so long"?


Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[Slot Machine]

pissed that I didn't make the list...pissed:

Lol, no disrespect! I didn't want to step on your toes, since I don't know you that well. You know, didn't want to rouse any rabbles. :haha:

From this point forward, rockgremlin shall be know as an official rabble rouser! :haha: :2thumbs:

[burley]

For those new to the game... The ACA, Summit Post and a few others provided crowd source beta of various quality for years. This is nothing new. The only thing that would make this time any different is if routes not currently on everyones radar begin to show up. Retracing route descriptions that have been public knowledge for years is no big gain for the canyon community.


You're right, maybe not a big gain for the canyon community as a whole; however I think the format of CC makes it stand out. And for those (including myself) that aren't as familiar with canyon locations, ratings etc, and don't have thousands of canyons somewhere in our brain, it is a big gain. Having a searchable database linked to a pretty slick map is in my opinion a big difference, and a positive one (though the search feature is not yet enabled, it is supposedly in the works and has huge potential).

When I don't already know where I' headed next, I foresee CC as my first stop for selecting a canyon and where said canyon is. Of course, I'll read the beta on CC as well, but I expect I'll continue to go back to the beta sources I already use (and trust) before heading out. Of course, all this may change as CC grows and or my trust in the beta found there changes.

I have been throwing ideas around in my head for years about how to centralize/standardize canyon info (not just beta). For me, CC has pretty much done what I had hoped to see but was technically not capable of doing. In the end, CC is simply another addition to the many great resources we canyoneers have on the interweb. A fine addition, but not one I expect will be a replacement.

PS - On a philosophical note, I think diversity is important (in all things: opinions, beta, style). So are standards and organization (canyon ratings, ethics, beta). Sometimes these two ideas conflict and it can be a tough balance. Meaningful dialog helps.

[Scott P]

As someone supplying beta to such a site I would be concerned with my legal responsibility. My biggest fear would be are you protected from a lawsuit? Most beta peddlers are set up as an LLC, which basically allows someone to bring litigation against the company but not the individual. Which really makes litigation a dead end as the LLC is usually worth very little, maybe a few dollars in a bank account and a computer. If someone brings legal action against you personally it could get very expensive without the LLC firewall. And they're not going to go after Dan, he don't own a pot to piss in.

Does this apply to Bogley as well?:ne_nau:

[rockgremlin]

From this point forward, @rockgremlin (http://www.bogley.com/forum/member.php?u=5) shall be know as an official rabble rouser! :haha: :2thumbs:


I always thought it was @$$hole. :mrgreen:


I'm kinda the between man...I have friends on the Yahoo Group, Bogley and CC. Every time I'm out with one, they always tell me "don't go telling Bogley" or "don't go telling Shane" or "don't tell the Yahoos on the Yahoo Group." And I always respect those wishes, but I just think it's comical how there's such a petty high-school girl mentality that exists. Hopefully we can all get together and have a threesome.

[Everett]

The most popular thread on Canyon Collective is on Bogley?

:roflol:

[Deathcricket]

The most popular thread on Canyon Collective is on Bogley?

:roflol:

Wut? Doubt the nazi mods on CC would allow a subject about Bogley there. Did you mean to say the most popular thread on Bogley is about CC?

[Byron]

Wow man, this is pretty epic! I'm completely clueless on all this stuff. Probably because I haven't personally met anyone around here yet to hear all the high school type drama...Hell, I guess we never do really grow up, eh?

Perhaps I'll join that other site and spew a bunch of my classy observations and wonderful personality? HAR! HAR! I'll go check out the other site for giggles, but I can't imagine any place better than Bogley...this place rocks! Humor, my friends, is good for the soul!