Canyoneering 101 Class Suggestions?

[jman]

Since there is no standard of Canyoneering (It's take what you learn from others) a few friends and I thought of doing a monthly class for free or of very little charge, (just to cover materials) to the community starting in SLC held at a public venue.

There would be a intro presentation of what exactly Canyoneering is, how to get involved, what gear do you need, a few beta resources, names and phone numbers of guides to the different areas, showing the different locations of canyoneering spots, etc.

The goal of this is to bring a somewhat of a standardized process to the community that will help others know how to get into this sport. We could create a standard packet of generalized info that people can take into their communities and have these presentations (SLC, St. George, Provo, cities in California and Washinton, etc.)


I think this would be a great community project, and provide a way for others to get into the sport and ask someone who explicitly knows (or knows how and where to get that information) about Canyoneering questions.

I have a rough draft created and hopefully I can get it uploaded soon, but seeing how the sport has NO standardization - this would be a great project to help benefit us all. Dan Ransom created the new Canyoneering website, which I think is awesome, but it doesn't allow for much discussion like here on Bogley or Yahoo Canyons. Heck, I even got flagged for making a non canyon-related joke the other day about a city :/ ha ha.


Any opinions? Is is worth the trouble? Is this worth it in the end? Would the community enjoy or be a part of something like this? I'm just throwing out ideas.

Oh keep in mind, this is just a 101 class. Not a 201 or 300 class. That's where guides and professional services come in. These monthly classes just provide a start to get others excited about the sport, and meet new people, and see the basics of canyoneering (rope demonstration and other canyoneering demonstrations (potholes, anchor building),epic short vids, and pics would be shared as well).

EDIT: I assumed falsely that American Canyoneers was the new standardizing Canyoneering org. I was wrong, it only deals with Canyon Access.


UPDATE: Download Rough Draft below. It handles the paragraph and formatting better, than posted here (see page 2).

Critique it all you want, please.

[stefan]

. Heck, I even got flagged for making a non canyon-related joke the other day about a city :/ ha ha.


i thought your joke was more on the racial/racist side, personally. i think it'd be inappropriate on any forum

[Sombeech]

Annnnyyyyyyyyhoo not to argue the very unlikely case that jman made a racist joke, but as far as Canyoneering Classes go, I think it's something the community is often in need of.

Maybe it could be set up in Modules or Sections, such as

Module 1 - Gear
1.1 Helmet
1.2 Harness
1.3 Devices
....

Module 2 - Anchors

Module 3 - rappelling

Stemming... and so on.

i think a lot of the veterans would enjoy sharing their experience too. It might be helpful to hold a Tuesday night class, saying tonight we are covering Module 2

Great idea, I'm looking forward to how this pans out.

[jman]

i thought your joke was more on the racial/racist side, personally. i think it'd be inappropriate on any forum

I could see how you would see it that way. Just a joke. Btw Stefan, feel free to PM me, but I've always felt you had a thing against me. I've been through our dialogues recently and that that was interesting. I would like to know what makes me irritate you, or whatever, erc. I'm all ears. And you have admit, my joke was very mild compared to what others say and post here freely...

Anyways I digress...

[Iceaxe]

I don't see a down side to a canyoneering 101 class. I have given a similar class to numerous youth groups over the years with nothing but positive results.

FWIW - I believe American Canyoneers is making a wise choice to steer clear of this at the present time. They are an access group and should work on winning at least one access battle before making an elephant sandwich they will be forced to eat. The elephant sandwich was a major reason for the ACA's downfall. They tried to be all things to all people and failed miserably.

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[accadacca]

Great idea, Bogley will back it. I don't see any negatives, all positive. :2thumbs:

[jman]

I don't see a down side to a canyoneering 101 class. I have given a similar class to numerous youth groups over the years with nothing but positive results.

FWIW - I believe American Canyoneers is making a wise choice to steer clear of this at the present time. They are an access group and should work on winning at least one access battle before making an elephant sandwich they will be forced to eat. The elephant sandwich was a major reason for the ACA's downfall. They tried to be all things to all people and failed miserably.

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

Ohhhhh yeah, that's what Wolf was explaining but I forgot that part. Whoops... Thanks for the clarification. It's been a month since I read Wolfs email.

That's true - it would be a huge piece to digest. I didn't think of it in that regards.
I guess I keep thinking of the AC as the all encompassing ACA, which I forgot which it isn't.

[jman]

Annnnyyyyyyyyhoo not to argue the very unlikely case that jman made a racist joke, but as far as Canyoneering Classes go, I think it's something the community is often in need of.

Maybe it could be set up in Modules or Sections, such as

Module 1 - Gear
1.1 Helmet
1.2 Harness
1.3 Devices
....

Module 2 - Anchors

Module 3 - rappelling

Stemming... and so on.

i think a lot of the veterans would enjoy sharing their experience too. It might be helpful to hold a Tuesday night class, saying tonight we are covering Module 2

Great idea, I'm looking forward to how this pans out.

Exactly, you got the idea. Along those lines.

[Iceaxe]

I found you some pre-canyoneering instructions :mrgreen:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eX_73IcOQxc

[penmartens]

I think there are many people doing this type of thing on their own. I know I do this for the GJ area. AJ does this on the Eastern Slope. I believe Rick Thompson does something similar with the Wasatch Mtn Club. Rob is doing something, just read his trip reports.
It might be good to have some standard starting points. Canyoneers of the past have tended to be hard headed eccentric individuals. It might prove difficult to reach a concensus.
It is worth a try. There have been many changes in this sport in the last few years. There are new organizations, new heroes, new websites, new guide services, new techniques. Perhaps, it is possible.
It looks like the Collective has a place for tech tips. I don't know their rules over there, but maybe they would be willing to house the info you are thinking about. Perhaps, Bogley can make that happen also.

Penny

[Deathcricket]

Yeah buddy! I say go for it. I don't think there is a reasonably priced "intro" canyoning class out there. If you were in saint george I could give you some ideas on spots to try and things to teach at each spot. But you probably know of similar places up there to do that. But I would pick a single rap place and do knots, devices, and belaying maybe. Then pick an easy canyon (donut falls?) and do downclimbs, route finding, rope management, etc. Like start off easy and then make it progressively more advanced, pretty soon do a regular Pine Creek/keyhole type canyon as a graduation class.

Anyways, not a lot of good ideas, just wanted to send some encouragement your way, you racist bastage.

Edit: We've been doing something like this in saint george with our Z-crew, but mostly just friends. One thing to really watch out for is noobs conditioning. Something simple like yankee doodle is exhausting for some people. So before we take a new guy on trip we try if possible to take then through yankee doodle. It's got a big rap so you can gauge their fear of heights, some downclimbs so you can see how instructible they are, and a steep exit to gauge fitness level. Plus it is super short so if problems arise you can take your time and not have to camp out. Hopefully something similar in your area.

[jman]

I think there are many people doing this type of thing on their own. I know I do this for the GJ area. AJ does this on the Eastern Slope. I believe Rick Thompson does something similar with the Wasatch Mtn Club. Rob is doing something, just read his trip reports.
It might be good to have some standard starting points. Canyoneers of the past have tended to be hard headed eccentric individuals. It might prove difficult to reach a concensus.
It is worth a try. There have been many changes in this sport in the last few years. There are new organizations, new heroes, new websites, new guide services, new techniques. Perhaps, it is possible.
It looks like the Collective has a place for tech tips. I don't know their rules over there, but maybe they would be willing to house the info you are thinking about. Perhaps, Bogley can make that happen also.

Penny

Thanks for the reply Penny.

Here the thing - most big players will migrate over there and keep the discussion there. And that's totally fine! It's a great website and the sport needs something like is and ill be using it a lot. Bogley has a different feel and I think more approachable environment.

Collective has the big players and I don't play with the big players and have a few times declined trip invites. I have my own selfish reasons. I don't like playing games and what I have I share (with the exception of one canyon in Zion named Black Canyon which is ALL on private property).

Anywho, I have mentioned this idea before but I thought bringing it back up again now could be a good time.

My idea is community driven and supported. I know that lots of individuals have been doing this type of thing. But it would be good for the advancement and protection of the sport if there was a community standard. I don't have all of the ideas, and neither do veterans like Tom or Ram. Sure they know a LOT ( understatement) than me. But I'm young, I have lots of energy and dedication.

Wouldn't it be cool that new local heroes in Idaho, Utah, Arizona and do these meetings. In kaysville for example of where I live, I have met only a handful of people who even know what the sport is. Once I talk to them and show them a few pics on my phone - they are interested and some ask to join us and guide for them, and some are like "are never even thought that was possible! rappeling waterfalls?! awesome!". anyways, to share it with this peoppe who are excited about the sport who want to share it with others can, and have the community support and backing.

They can present it in their flavor, their personality but the same techniques and introduction and links would all be the same making our community stronger and bigger.

Now on the flipside, there are MANY that I know that want to hide canyoneering from the rest of the world so the public doesn't plug up the permits and making national parks and state parks and BLM land more crowded. I understand that but disagree. Less Americans (great... Time for a soapbox) are getting outdoors. They are becoming clams and living in a virtual world. All of us know how awesome canyoneering is and are excited to take people down with us trough the subway or escalante for the first time. So cool!

Like I have said before my intentions are all for the greater community good, not just a select individuals. People will disagree and that's fine. But they have to realize this sport is advancing really, really fast. And this is a crucial time in making standardizations and having a community-driven sport. But that's my world. And my world is great! I have hundreds of canyons logged, many miles of hiking and exploring, and I'm offering my resources freely. That's it Penny. That's all it is. Nothing more. No ulterior motive.

[jman]

Thanks for the reply Penny.

Here the thing - most big players will migrate over there and keep the discussion there. And that's totally fine! It's a great website and the sport needs something like is and ill be using it a lot. Bogley has a different feel and I think more approachable environment.

Collective has the big players and I don't play with the big players and have a few times declined trip invites. I have my own selfish reasons. I don't like playing games and what I have I share (with the exception of one canyon in Zion named Black Canyon which is ALL on private property).

Anywho, I have mentioned this idea before but I thought bringing it back up again now could be a good time.

My idea is community driven and supported. I know that lots of individuals have been doing this type of thing. But it would be good for the advancement and protection of the sport if there was a community standard. I don't have all of the ideas, and neither do veterans like Tom or Ram. Sure they know a LOT ( understatement) than me. But I'm young, I have lots of energy and dedication.

Wouldn't it be cool that new local heroes in Idaho, Utah, Arizona and do these meetings. In kaysville for example of where I live, I have met only a handful of people who even know what the sport is. Once I talk to them and show them a few pics on my phone - they are interested and some ask to join us and guide for them, and some are like "are never even thought that was possible! rappeling waterfalls?! awesome!". anyways, to share it with this peoppe who are excited about the sport who want to share it with others can, and have the community support and backing.

They can present it in their flavor, their personality but the same techniques and introduction and links would all be the same making our community stronger and bigger.

Now on the flipside, there are MANY that I know that want to hide canyoneering from the rest of the world so the public doesn't plug up the permits and making national parks and state parks and BLM land more crowded. I understand that but disagree. Less Americans (great... Time for a soapbox) are getting outdoors. They are becoming clams and living in a virtual world. All of us know how awesome canyoneering is and are excited to take people down with us trough the subway or escalante for the first time. So cool!

Like I have said before my intentions are all for the greater community good, not just a select individuals. People will disagree and that's fine. But they have to realize this sport is advancing really, really fast. And this is a crucial time in making standardizations and having a community-driven sport. But that's my world. And my world is great! I have hundreds of canyons logged, many miles of hiking and exploring, and I'm offering my resources freely. That's it Penny. That's all it is. Nothing more. No ulterior motive.

Hehe. A racist bastage? Haha, I don't think so, I have a color TV you know.

Thanks for the encouragement DC.

I see that you actually take people down canyons. My approach is a bit different - my idea is just the basics, no actual guiding. I think the liability would be to high there. However, we would include numerous guiding groups in our presentation and handouts of people who they can contact for their services. It's a win-win for both sides. Part of the 101 would be hands-on demonstration on how to tie the basic knots, how to rappel, things like that... Nothing too advanced. Basically, it's just enough to whet their appetite for more and show links to the online communities and guide services. That way the liability is on the user and not us (huge deal).

Does that make sense?

[penmartens]

Jman,
I was agreeing with you and offering some reasons why this is a good idea. I also made a suggestion of how to make this happen. It sounds like I was somehow misunderstood. My apologies. I meant to offer encouragement.

Penny

[jman]

Jman,
I was agreeing with you and offering some reasons why this is a good idea. I also made a suggestion of how to make this happen. It sounds like I was somehow misunderstood. My apologies. I meant to offer encouragement.

Penny

No misunderstanding Penny. I was explaining why I don't think it would be a good idea for me to share it over - it would get overlooked. I would get overlooked I mean.

I'll do it, and hope for the best I guess...

[penmartens]

No misunderstanding Penny. I was explaining why I don't think it would be a good idea for me to share it over - it would get overlooked. I would get overlooked I mean.

I'll do it, and hope for the best I guess...

i understand your hesitancy. I have some of the same misgivings. Your friends are here on Bogley. Maybe you should start here and expand if it takes off.

Penny

[jman]

i understand your hesitancy. I have some of the same misgivings. Your friends are here on Bogley. Maybe you should start here and expand if it takes off.

Penny

Thanks Penny.
Yup, ill start here and present it to the oligarchy. Hehe

Well I have the outline all done. Ill put it in a PDF in the next day or two for you guys to check out and critique and provide feedback.

[Iceaxe]

Jman, I've done some 101 classes in the SLC area. We have a spot in Draper we use I'd be happy to show you. I'd also be happy to run through what I taught, which is basically enough to run an easy slot like Keyhole, Subway or Entrajo. So far everyone I help returned safety, some transitioned into the sport and some just enjoyed a good memory.

A big part depends on the students. Some group's pick it up fast and some take a lot more coaching.



Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[jman]

Jman, I've done some 101 classes in the SLC area. We have a spot in Draper we use I'd be happy to show you. I'd also be happy to run through what I taught, which is basically enough to run an easy slot like Keyhole, Subway or Entrajo. So far everyone I help returned safety, some transitioned into the sport and some just enjoyed a good memory.

A big part depends on the students. Some group's pick it up fast and some take a lot more coaching.



Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

Is the spot you use a small low-flowing waterfall by chance?

I do like the classroom part of it, but I don't think taking people out in classes is what I'm looking for for this project. Don't get me wrong - canyoneering is best taught all hands-on method.

The thing I'm proposing is just the "welcome to canyoneering" idea and go from there. It very well could evolve into "the field". Once I can figure out the liability aspect.

Basically, Sombeech had it right. Just explaining the gear needed, where we do canyoneering, who (if any) teaches canyoneering professionally, where can I meet more friends who like this sport, etc. And then we provide the pictures, the videos, presentation, and weblinks, phone numbers and addresses to these companies and websites for more info.

Think of it like a community class taught in the evenings at the local HS or library or university. There would be flyers or a bulletin hanging up that says "want to Learn how to rappel, descend slot canyons, and see places where 99% of the world will never see" I dunno something like that, but hopefully not as cheesy. I'm still working on a good canyoneering intro...

Anyways, that's what I'm envisioning, of course it is welcome to evolve.

[Iceaxe]

Gotcha!

FYI - the place we use isn't a canyon, but a small grid bolted cliff.


Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[Sombeech]

From an instructional point of view, students usually do better when they can check certain boxes from a master list to put in their portfolio, such as


XXXX I have a helmet
XXXX I have a harness
I do not have a rope
XXXX I have a wetsuit
I do not have _________


Stuff like that. And then when certain fields have been checked or completed, this is somewhat self assuring that they are moving in the right direction, they are ready for the next steps because they have taken the responsible prerequisites, they can feel some comfort they are on the right path at least and would like to progress to the next steps. Then again I am in no way qualified to suggest how this sport should be instructed, I'm only relating a successful instructor / student template.

Just let us know what bogley can do to help facilitate :2thumbs:

[Iceaxe]

From an instructional point of view, students usually do better when they can check certain boxes from a master list to put in their portfolio

I really like this approach. :2thumbs:

Knots


Water Knot
Over hand
Figure 8
Retreaded Figure 8 (Flemmish bend)


Not a huge list of knots, just the 3 or 4 needed to get started safely.


Rappel Device


Tube style
Figure 8
Stitch plate


Noob's should have a basic understanding of all three types.

Yada, Yada

An on-line course where you could check off each topic as you do it would be primo (but might also be more work then you want to get involved in).

:popcorn:

[Sombeech]

An on-line course where you could check off each topic as you do it would be primo (but might also be more work then you want to get involved in).


Lots of ways to do this, you folks just give us the data you want on the list/form and we'll find a way to place a checklist here, and/or a downloadable or printable form.

[Deathcricket]

Lots of ways to do this, you folks just give us the data you want on the list/form and we'll find a way to place a checklist here, and/or a downloadable or printable form.

Maybe a new type of sticky too? Like a common noobs Q&A thread. He (Jman) did a cool video about Imlay pothole escapes I must have watched 100 times before doing Imlay myself. I was so nervous that my team would get stuck but it ended up being really easy and trivial once we got to it. But without watching that video I probably would have left it off my list for fear of the unknown. But he also has a cool vid on adding friction for a z rap. We always get questions about wetsuits (ice could probably head that one up), then we could do one on different types of knots (tom had a pretty cool demo around here someplace). Anyways i think it could come together probably just blending the info that is out there but maybe in a more cohesive manner. Part of that could be a "checklist" like jman is saying of stuff to learn and prepare for. He's already been dropping awesome stuff all over IMO, but maybe it just needs an index and central location. :)

[Sombeech]

Maybe a new type of sticky too? Like a common noobs Q&A thread. ..... Anyways i think it could come together probably just blending the info that is out there but maybe in a more cohesive manner. Part of that could be a "checklist" like jman is saying of stuff to learn and prepare for. He's already been dropping awesome stuff all over IMO, but maybe it just needs an index and central location. :)

Sure, and in my opinion, putting a [How To] prefix on these types of instructional threads makes it really easy to find tutorial stuff.

http://www.bogley.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?15-Canyoneering&prefixid=How_To )

Here are the How To Canyoneering threads so far, easy to get to by either clicking one thread prefix that has the "How To" on it, or scroll to the bottom and filter the threads by a certain prefix.

63446

We could just make a sticky thread that links to this filter possibly, for those who aren't familiar with the Prefix filter. Similar to how we made the Canyoneering Trip Reports link in the "Quick Links" sticky: http://www.bogley.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?15-Canyoneering&prefixid=Trip_Report

So that would cover the tutorial threads that already exist, and more to come - if they put it in the How To prefix (tutorial here - http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?39103-Thread-Prefixes-Posting-and-Filtering

And for the Canyoneering 101 courses, or skills and gear checklist, or whatever you folks would like to come up with, we can have a thread dedicated to that. Maybe something as simple as an embedded Google Doc Form with the radio buttons or check boxes, then somebody in charge of adding criteria to check off?

Up to you. Just tell us what you want, make sure you've hypothetically walked through the steps of filling it out, how user friendly it would be, how practical it is, things like that so we can build it right the first time. :2thumbs:

[jman]

Yeah...you guys are awesome! You just took off with the idea that I'm visualizing. Thanks for the handful of PMs for encouragement and support guys!

Thankfully, it's my Friday at work and so I took some of your ideas and put them in my draft.

Hopefully tomorrow night or by Saturday ill have it uploaded by then for you guys to check it out.

[jman]

Alright, so here we go. I have more information, but this if the first outline that I produced.

KEEP IN MIND: this is not finalized in anyway, and this is through my eyes of a system where it's standardized for the beginner. This is just a piece of paper that they can carry and make notes on as they prepare themselves for their first live instructional class.

My idea is to let the user be the one who decides on where he gets that live training. Not me. This is essentially a primer, but more specific than just quick anecdotal basics of the sport (if that makes sense).

And again, the idea is to let the community help and contribute, as I don't have the best ideas. I just like to get 'em started :nod:.

Well here is Outline1, in it's very basic format. I'll paste it here, rather than a document, so everyone can view it, compared to those who can't download documents at work (like me).

One last thing: The purpose of this entire thing is so that we can create a easy document/PDF that's easily distributable (which includes pictures), so that people who would like to have a "community class" throughout their towns can do so with ease. But the case in point is, standardization! There really isn't a 101 for Canyoneering, go figure. It seems like it's a "hey, come with us canyoneering and let's see what happens." And the end results are injuries, broken bones, people getting lost, people going in underprepared for tough canyons, etc. I digress, Just hand these out, and teach em about the basics. Easy, and a lot of fun...and probably a lot of work in some cases.


Canyoneering 101
---------------------------------


WARNING! Canyoneering is an inherently dangerous backcountry sport. You can be seriously injured or die. There is no substitution for personal instruction in canyoneering. You should hire professional guide/instructor to learn about the hands-on aspect of Canyoneering. This Canyoneering 101 is to be used a "starter" or "complement" to live training.




So what is Canyoneering?


[Explanation in a nutshell; followed by Video presentation/slideshow (youtube vid perhaps?)




Module1:
Essential Canyoneering Gear:


CLIMBING HARNESS w/BELAY LOOP
[Connects you to the rope; allows you to safely rappel (go down) obstacles and vertical walls]
-comfortable, and un-complicated to put on and off.
-adjustability; needs to be put over shorts, wetsuits, drysuits,
-not too many gear loops; 2 minimum for gear. Too many can get rope, leashes, and gear tangled.
-EXPERTS: can use a webbing harness (AKA swiss sweat) to save on weight for canyons that have few, short rappels


CARABINER (AKA "biner" pronounced 'bee-ner')
["D" or oval shapped metal links with a gate, which allows the ropes to "connect" you to your harness; useful for anchors]
-Wire-gate biners should not be used. Screw-gate or spring-gate are to be used instead. (Show pic differences)
-many varieties; please don't use Home Depot or Wal-mart biners. They are unsafe and unreliable. Buy ones from trusted rock-climbing or canyoneering stores. See link below of where to buy
-measured in kN (kilonewtons) and are listed on the 'biner. 1 kN can hold up 225 lbs. Most biners are rated between 7-14.
-used to build natural anchors (discussed below)
-used to rappel
-useful to create knot blocks (discussed below)
-useful to connect gear to harness gear loops
*NOTE* a minimum of 2 (TWO) carabiners should be used per person/per canyon. IE. 2 people = 4 carabiners (minimum)


DESCENDING DEVICE
[Specially designed device that adds a friction point between the rope, you, and your "braking hand" (see below)
-*NOTE* VITAL for canyoneering. 2 devices per person/per canyon. (1 used as a backup, or 2nd rappel device to add more friction)
-FRICTION is necessary for you to SAFELY rappel any length of vertical cliff.
-There are varietes of descending devices (which allow for light-weighted canyoneers and big-boned canyoneers. The primary reason for the varying devices are (1) Friction, (2) different uses for rappelling, stopping, etc.
-There are 3 TYPES of DESCENDING DEVICES:
- Stitch Plate (original descender)
- Plate/Tube Style (similar to original but designed to disperse heat better)
- Figure 8s (most popular device, not necessarily best for canyoneering. Allows for a smooth feed of the rope, yet twists the rope more than any other descender.)


ROPE
[There are 2 rope variations used by the canyoneering and rock-climbing communities - Dynamic and Static. Canyoneering primarily uses static.]
- Dynamic Ropes, are primarily used by rock-climbers and are designed to "absorb" a fall and allow for a bounce, which is typical in climbing.
- Static Ropes, are primarily used by canyoneers and are designed to be "no stretch", which allows for lighter ropes while safely descending
-*NOTE* Bouncing on ropes is STRONGLY DISCOURAGED. This puts tremendous pressure on the rope properties/strength as well as the anchor in which the rope is attached to (IE trees, bushes, rocks, bolts).
- Rope Properties
- Nylon
- Polyester
- Dyneema, Technora (allows for rope protection against sharp objects. Same fiberous material as Kevlar. This doesn't make ropes invincible. It makes the ropes last longer)
- 1 Rope will not last a lifetime. They are expendable, as in they get used, abused, and dragged over sharp rocks and edges.
- Before each descent, the user is responsible to examine the rope for abrasions, "core shots", and other cuts or defects in the rope.
- 9mm (or 9.2mm) ropes should be used when begining to descend canyons.
- EXPERTS: can use smaller ropes such as 8.3mm ropes (which allows for a lighter load) HOWEVER, more caution is needed as there will be less friction initally when rappelling.
- Common lengths for ropes to be used in the sport are 100ft (30 meters), 120ft(36 meters), 200ft (60 meters), and a uncommon 300ft (91 meters).
- *NOTE* Depending on numerous factors, multiple ropes can be used to speed up or enhance the canyoneering experience.
- 2 METHODS are used to setup up the rappel with the Rope:
- Double-stranded (explain differences, pics too)
- Pull-cord (explain differences, pics too)


ROPE - PULL CORD
[a smaller(6mm) static (preferred) rope is used which attaches to the RAPPELLING ROPE, which after the party has descended the obstacle allows the group to retrieve the rappelling rope and continue on down the canyon. Useful because it allows less rope (IE weight) to be carried through the canyon.
- "biner block"
- Double-fisherman
- EDK or European Death-knot
- clove hitch, and triple clove hitch (for brand-new ropes)


WEBBING
[flat piece of fiber materials which allows the canyoneer to "rig" an "anchor point".
- orginally made from cotton, but now made with stronger fibers such as nylon (doesn't absorb water), Dyneema and Kevlar.
- Variable sizes in width; but most common for canyoneering is 1". 1/2" are also acceptable but should be used by EXPERTS.
- *NOTE* Each canyoneer as a rule of thumb, should carry at least 50feet of webbing per canyon. Always assume you are going to the canyon to build and rebuild anchors. [more later]
- plan on replacing a LOT of webbing anchors with new material. ALWAYS Inspect webbing (if left from previous canyoneers around natural anchors), and replace if not brand-new. Canyons will destroy the strength and properties of the webbing by UV light, repeating of wet to dry; and sand abrasion.
- WEBBING is very expendable. Do not be hesitant to replace it (regardless of conditions; IE fatigue; light)Number #1 Goal in Canyons is EVERYONES SAFETY!


BACKPACK:
[small backpacks or camelbacks or fannypacks will NOT DO!! You need a full-size backpack to carry your harness, biners, ropes, gear, helmet, gloves, food, and water for approach to the canyon and hike back to your vehicle or tent]
- different types of backpacks.
- Ones that keep water out
- Ones that allow water in, but have grommets (or purposefully placed holes) to drain the water.
- Gear, or food that cannot get wet, need to be contained in DRYBAGS.
- comfortable, and typically one that doesn't have a lot of external compartments for gear or things to get snagged on.
- Can use smaller backpacks for small canyons (2-4hrs tops!) with small rappels.


HELMET:
[canyoneering goes from a top to bottom; EVERY canyoneer needs a helmet to protect from falling rocks (at rappels), from waterfalls, and or mis-steps or trips over the many obstacles in the canyon. A bicycle helmet will do as well]
- snug
- comfortable (think, wearing this half-day or all day through the canyon)


GLOVES:
[the preferred method of rappelling is not use gloves, but gloves are helpful to keep hands warm and to absorb 'some' heat while on rappel. *NOTE* Should be taught in person for correct style for rappelling.]


ROPE MAINTENANCE and RAPPELING TIPS
- always inspect before canyon usage.
- Don't step on ropes.
- If wet, hang out to dry when home and allow to dry completely. Don't allow "rope rot" due to negligence - decreases rope strenth (seen or not-seen).
- While rappelling, do NOT allow a rope to scrape or abrase sideways.
- Adjust rope position after a large group of rappellers (4-6 people) to change points of abrasion on the rope. Think preservation.
- Think preservation!
- Extend natural anchors with webbing or find a new anchor point, so "Rope Grooves" do not appear on ROCKS!!! (explained below)
- Safe to use a pressure washer from at least 2feet away to get dirt out of rope.



MODULE 2:
KNOTS:
[ESSENTIAL FOR CANYONEERING] (everyone in the canyon party should know how to tie these fundamental knots)
- TERMINOLOGY
- Loop; a loop in the rope or rather a 1/2 twist in the rope
- Bight - like a loop, but without the 1/2 twist
- End; as it sounds, either end of the rope


TYPES OF KNOTS:
- OVERHAND KNOTS
- ties ropes and webbing together to create loops which allows you to "sling" it around natural anchors (rocks, trees, etc.)
- Overhand on a bight
- Water Knot
- FIGURE 8
- Figure 8 on a Bight (Ties the rope directly the harness)
- Ties two ropes together
- EDK
- Double-fisherman
- HITCHES
- secures the rope to various objects (descender device, rope, biners)
- Clove
- Munter


ANCHORS:
[Points of contacts that secures the rope as we rappel, "downclimb", and assist others in either being lowered, raised, or rescue situations].
- NATURAL ANCHORS
- trees, rocks, chockstones, holes, arches, etc.


ANCHORS, or NON-NATURAL ANCHORS, or ARTIFICIAL ANCHORS
- man-made anchors such as Bolts, Pitons, deadmen anchor (anchor buried in the ground), bags filled with sand AKA "pot-shots", or sandtrap, Watertrap


RETRIEVABLE ANCHORS
- anchors that as soon as last rappeller is down, pulls on another rope/cord to pull down the "anchor", which leaves no gear behind. When this is done in a canyon. It is called "GHOSTING" (more later on that).\


CONTIGENCY ANCHORS
- a backup anchor. (needs more explanation)


-*NOTES* ANCHORS need to be chosen very wisely. It goes without saying, that your life depends upon these anchors.
- WHERE, determine the best spot to retrieve the rope if using a pull-cord to avoid instances when the rope can get stuck in a crack. Avoid Rope grooves.
- HoW, how are you going to make the anchor? around a bush, tree, or digging and burying the anchor, etc.

- WHAT, what are you going to build it with? sand, water, webbing, a "meat" anchor (human anchor or human belay). Also considering, how much webbing you have left in your group and how many more rappels to go, or other obstacles).




BELAYS:
[secures safety of the canyoneers as they rappel or overcome/downclimb obstacles; a "fail-safe" if you will)


[add more stuff]


Module 3:
CHOOSING YOUR CANYONS
- First Thing's FIRST - Everyone's safety!!! Do not attempt a canyon until after "live" instruction. Learning about it online or this basic 101, will not prepare you completely for your first canyon, or second, or third. etc..

- KNOW THE CANYON RATINGS!
- RATING SYSTEM DESCBRIBED BELOW


- CANYON TERMINOLOGY:
- CFS, LDC, LUC, hydralogics (Class C only), pothole, Keeper-pothole, rappel/abseil, ascend, chockstone, dryfall, logjams, Class C,

- What is Beta?


- Where do I obtain Beta for Canyons? [See References below]


- AFter you obtain the beta for the canyons, make sure you know how to read a MAP!


- Map Basics


Understanding Canyon Drainages
- Why is this Important?
- Flash Floods, Snow-melt, etc.
- Know points of escape within the canyon on your Map.
-*NOTE* Some canyons have NO ESCAPE. That's why careful planning, and weather considerations play hand-in-hand. But the reward is worth it.
- Have someone who has canyoneering experience to "guide" or "lead" you through a basic, simple canyon.
- Need to develop confidence, and "thinking" so that you can conquer your anxiety for your first rappel. Also knowing that it gets easier and better with each sesquent rappel. You do NOT want to "space out" when you reach your first rappel and forget all the basics of anchor, and knot building, and rappelling. That's why it is IMPERATIVE to get "LIVE" instruction before you journey out.


TOOLS to assist your canyon adventure
- GPS (but also knowing, how to use it is just as important ;) )
- EMERGENCY CONTACT and ITINERARY paper left in car (or at trailhead) so if a emergency arises, Search and Rescue teams, and family members will know exactly what the intended route is. Think Aron Ralson. Didn't tell ANYONE. Lucky to be alive after 5days!



Other Modules to Implement:

MOVING THROUGH THE CANYON
- STEMMING, JUMPING, SLIDING, DOWNCLIMBING, CHIMNEYING, etc.
- HUMAN LADDERS or HUMAN STEPS
- ADVANCED: CONQUERING POT-HOLES
- backpacks
- pot-shots
- hooks
- entriers
- happy stick
- SPOTTING
- MODELING, having the strongest/most experienced climber go first and experience the obstacle then provide instructions to the rest of the group.
- SEQUENCING, knowing who is the strongest, weakest, scared, fatigued members of your group and sequencing them through the rappels, obstacles in order to assist other members of the group, which also adds security and self-confidence to everyone.
- RAPPELLING BASICS
- Locking Off
- Adding friction.
- Guided Rappels (maybe?)
- Passing a Knot
-ASCENDING A ROPE
- Prusik
- Handled Ascenders


REFERENCES AND LINKS:

GUIDE SERVICES:
Moab: Desert Highlights
Moab Desert Adventures
Cliffs and Canyons
Red River Adventures


Zion: Zion Adventure Company
Zion Rock Guides
Red Desert Adventure


North Wash and Lake Powell areas: North Wash Outfitters


www.darkhorseleadership.com (http://www.darkhorseleadership.com)


Canyon Beta:
Canyoneeringusa.com
Canyoneering.net
Candition.com
Climb-utah.com
AJroadtrips.com
Bluugnome.com
Canyoncollective.com
Canyoneeringnorthwest.com
Ucanyon.com
math.utah.edu/~sfolias/minislot
toddshikingguide.com
zionnational-park.com/zion-national-park-canyoneering.htm



PS - There are probably many errors, and typos, and things I switched around to make it display here correctly. Things in [brackets] and (parathensis) are notes and definitions and explanations.

Enjoy the novel??? :haha:

[Canyonbug]

Thanks for including us in there :2thumbs: :2thumbs:

Your list looks all inclusive and covers a lot of what is taught in our first day (class room portion) of the Technical Canyoneering Course.

One cautionary note, looks like you are getting into teaching anchoring and rappelling basics. Just be cautious with liability. If you are not insured and try to teach people rappelling and how to set ropes, be sure not to have accidents and make sure they know exactly what they are doing when they leave.

[jman]

Thanks for including us in there :2thumbs: :2thumbs:

Your list looks all inclusive and covers a lot of what is taught in our first day (class room portion) of the Technical Canyoneering Course.

One cautionary note, looks like you are getting into teaching anchoring and rappelling basics. Just be cautious with liability. If you are not insured and try to teach people rappelling and how to set ropes, be sure not to have accidents and make sure they know exactly what they are doing when they leave.

Thanks! I know it doesn't look pretty in this format. I need to get the PDF figured and uploaded here, which includes pics and such.

You are exactly right with liability, which I am attempting to steering clear of, and placing it on you guys (guide services since you have insurance, which then you guys put back on to the user.). It's a win win. You guys profit from the exposure but more importantly it teaches that there is no substitution for live training, and having a professional guide them initially. I mean this isn't soccer and you just kick a ball around and suddenly you're good ;)

This primer, if you will, gives people a chance to know before hand of what to expect and know what's all involved in the sport, without paying, and to see if it is something they want to pursue further. It's just a inclusive introductory class, free of charge. I have seen smaller intro "classes online" but they are very vague. IE. "need a harness, carabiners, rope, and helmet". This provides more information as many will wonder, well what harness? What ropes, etc. BUT it makes it explicitly clear that this is just a REFERENCE and that they should hire guide services (or a professional guide/ veteran canyoneer, etc.). Is this making sense?

There is still lots of changes and modifications that need to be made, and more guide, beta, references, services listed.

[Deathcricket]

Yeah dude, I like where you are going with this. When I got into this sport there was hardly any info and it had to be searched out. This could be a one stop shopping resource to get the basics going.

[Iceaxe]

One cautionary note, looks like you are getting into teaching anchoring and rappelling basics. Just be cautious with liability. If you are not insured and try to teach people rappelling and how to set ropes, be sure not to have accidents and make sure they know exactly what they are doing when they leave.

Written instruction is much different than teaching hands on with regards to liability. Which is why guide book authors don't get into lawsuit's. Add a disclaimer, add a warning, and you are pretty much protected by freedom of speech and freedom of the press.


Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[jman]

Yeah dude, I like where you are going with this. When I got into this sport there was hardly any info and it had to be searched out. This could be a one stop shopping resource to get the basics going.

Thanks! Precisely, your story (among others) is why I would like to have something like this come to fruition. Now making it a reality....that's something different. ;) At the very least, it provides links and references of where to obtain more knowledge. Not just "hey, grab a Ace Hardwear rope and you're good to do the subway!" time of mentality.

But hey, I'm having fun while doing it. Thanks for the encourgament.

BTW - I'm very open to thoughts and suggestions.

[jman]

Okay, so I posted the Rough Draft or Outline in the first post, as an attachment.

The formatting should make it MUCH easier to read, than here. Take a look please!
I wish I knew how to make awesome publications, but I can't. I only know basic to intermediate Office 2007 skills. :cry1: I have pictures that I just can't get right and some formatting issues, so I just removed them for the time being. Any ideas on what software programs I could use?

Thanks again!

[hank moon]

Any ideas on what software programs I could use?

Gold standard: Adobe InDesign - it's pretty common these days due to Adobe's price structuring. A lot of people have it b/c it comes bundled with PHotoshop as part of Adobe Creative Suite - ask around, bet you'll find a friend who has it. Learning curve isn't too bad and output control is fantastic compared to word processors. Good luck on the proj - a worthy objective indeed. If standardization is what you seek, might want to check in with the ACA aka Rich Carlson. His course outlines / skill sets are the de facto standard in use by most guide services, I'd wager.

[ratagonia]

One cautionary note, looks like you are getting into teaching anchoring and rappelling basics. Just be cautious with liability. If you are not insured and try to teach people rappelling and how to set ropes, be sure not to have accidents and make sure they know exactly what they are doing when they leave.

What he said.

It is important to remember the 3 rules of guiding:

1. The students are trying to kill themselves.

2. The students are trying to kill the other students.

3. The students are trying to kill the instructor.

Tom :cool2:

[ratagonia]

Would be nice to add Zion Mountain School http://www.zionmountainschool.com to your list of training services.

There are quite a few other ones too. Might take a look at:

http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/utah/introduction/training-a-guiding/

Out side Utah there are more, such as around Las Vegas and So Cal.

Klaus Gerhart https://www.facebook.com/KlausGerhart

Parker Simper https://www.facebook.com/parker.simper

Tom

[Sombeech]

A mention of Bogley would be kinda cool since we are a major part of contributing to the structure :cool2:

[Canyonbug]

What he said.

It is important to remember the 3 rules of guiding:

1. The students are trying to kill themselves.

2. The students are trying to kill the other students.

3. The students are trying to kill the instructor.

Tom :cool2:

I'm just saying that just because you are in a classroom setting doesn't mean there is no liability. When you start teaching tech skills, if that student leaves there thinking they were taught what they need to know to set an anchor and rappel, that is what the liability standard would be.

I can't remember who posted it or where, but several months ago there was an article posted about a guy who took a girl on a date and took her climbing. She was under the impression that he knew what he was doing. She fell and got injured and sued. He was not a guide, was not insured, was just out teaching someone how to do something.

I like the idea that you have going and the direction you are intending. I am all for anything that would point students our direction.

[burnsdye]

Keep in mind that this is still under development and that I wasn't planning on releasing it just yet, but I am working on a similar Canyoneering 101 guide. It is at http://dyeclan.com/outdoors101/canyoneering101/. I have about 98 out of 157 pages done right now, but it is growing daily. You are welcome to include my content in your guide if you like. Or if you like my format, you are welcome to contribute to mine.
Jeremy

[jman]

Thanks Tom for the links. And thanks canyonbug for the advice as well. I will give inDesign a shot Hank. We use it at work, just need to convince the boss now.

Jeremy I haven't seen it but I will take a look. Credit is due where it's due, and all names will be named for assisting.

Revision 2 should be out soon, with some good content changes and a much better reference section.

The references section will have websites that are established for a number of years, and will be fun for " extended reading". IE people want to know about how canyons get their names, if there has been any accidents or deaths in canyons, Advanced Tech Tips like Toms great page, and a website on how to tie knots, etc.

But like canyonbug said, the liability is a real concern. Thankfully I have a friend who is a personal injury lawyer, and will ask him for advice.

Btw, is that accident/ near miss database in production yet? I haven't heard anything about it yet.

[jman]

Just a update for all y'all,

I have been chipping at this for the 5 past weeks and have a good, presentable form now! But I need to do a few more tweaks and ill present it soon.

One thing that persisted while I was doing this was creating a checklist of canyons as you progress. And so to my surprise Dan Ransom over at CC created a thread called "Canyon Progression" which imitates my thoughts exactly. I encourage you all to read that btw.

Anyway, I have something adapted from my thoughts and the previously mentioned thread, so the following (keep this in mind, as this meant for beginners):

Beginner Canyoneers should follow a canyon progression, so they can acquire new skills while existing skills at knots, anchors, and confidence increase. Keep in mind, that doing the following canyons verbatim will NOT instantly make you READY (physically and mentally) for the last canyons on the list.

This progression list provides a starting list that the community has agreed upon that will help you become a more competent canyoneer.

For Zion (for example):

1st - Keyhole
2nd - Echo
3rd - Pinecreek
4th - Spry
5th - Mystery
...bottom of the list...Imlay and then Heaps.

Skill Progression List:
-Learn Rappelling 101 (as taught from 101)
-Rappel from 50ft
-Rappel 100ft
-Rappel 200ft+-
-Rappel 50+- freehang
-Rappel 100+- freehang
-Rappel 40x of various heights up to 200ft.
-Rappel 300ft (not freehang)
-learn how to tie 2 ropes and how to pass a knot while on rappel

-Learn the basics of a pothole and techniques to conquer them (taught from 101)
-While under direct-supervison, descend a canyon where potholes exist (such as Knotted Rope in the Swell).
-Find a practice canyon with potholes (such as Willow Spring Canyon in Moab) to practice escaping again and again.
-Find a competent canyoneer expert, who deems you qualified to escape a pothole and have him lead you through another canyon where more challenging potholes exist.

Etc etc etc.

And for those not paying attention to the thread - this serves as a 101 to intro canyoneering and some of the logistics involved with the sport. The hope of this idea is to prevent people from thinking "ohhhh...the corona arch swing...looks easy enough...ill just use some rope from Walmart" mentality; and have a good plan of standardization of where noobs can start and be better trained going into the sport.

Any comments on adding the "progression" list? Keep in mind it's not meant as a comprehensive or exhaustive list, but like the 101, used as a starting point or reference. Or would by adding it, I would muddying the waters or would be throwing too much info at the trainee?

Edit - I hate typing on my phone... Ugh. So many typos to fix... :(

[Slot Machine]

^^Nice post Brett. Well thought out.^^



1st - Keyhole
2nd - Echo
3rd - Pinecreek
4th - Spry
5th - Mystery
...bottom of the list...Imlay and then Heaps.


IMO, Spry is a step up from Mystery. Exposed anchors, awkward rappel starts, free hanging rappels and couple of tricky rope pulls place it a step above.

Maybe Keyhole, Echo, Birch Hollow, Pine Creek, Mystery... ? :ne_nau:

[jman]

^^Nice post Brett. Well thought out.^^



IMO, Spry is a step up from Mystery. Exposed anchors, awkward rappel starts, free hanging rappels and couple of tricky rope pulls place it a step above.

Maybe Keyhole, Echo, Birch Hollow, Pine Creek, Mystery... ? :ne_nau:

Thanks Bob! I think birch is tougher than Pine creek due to the length, the exit, loose rocks on the first couple raps, and then the whole mud issue there.

How about key, echo, pinecreek, mystery, spry, birch to start off for Zion? Granted I'm not going to list every single Zion canyon in the list, but the common trade canyons. Each area is going to be different, but I would like to create a list for the other areas as well. The intent behind that is - you don't HAVE to go to Zion just to learn about canyoneering (as some might infer from my post). But it's the most common place in Utah. And then having a place for Moab, North Wash, and the Roost. From there, branch out to California and Arizona.

Regardless of location, the 101 will provide a starting and standardization tool and local canyoneer folks whereever they might live, can then change the "progression list" to their prospective areas, such as SoCal, Hawaii, Ouray, East Coast, Oregon, etc. But the most important thing is standardization.

[Slot Machine]

Thanks Bob! I think birch is tougher than Pine creek due to the length, the exit, loose rocks on the first couple raps, and then the whole mud issue there.

Yeah, all good points. A dry Birch is a fun Birch.


How about key, echo, pinecreek, mystery, spry, birch to start off for Zion?

Spry still is a step up from Birch, for the above reasons (post #42) and one more that I just though of -

Spry gives people several chances to get into serious trouble. For example, there is a pool in the watercourse that requires a short rap to get into. From above it seems like a reasonable option. Once you rap into it and swim across you discover that the pool ends in a 70 foot drop with no anchor. If your group commits to that pool, then hilarity will not ensue. (one must climb, traverse LDC then rappel to avoid this) Spry is not a good place to learn, especially when full of water. More advanced skills are pretty nice in there.

I though Mystery was just a hair more difficult than Birch, but we caught Birch when it was bone dry. Only doing each once it is tough to say which one is more difficult, on average. :ne_nau:

Sooo....

Keyhole, Echo, Pinecreek, Mystery, Birch, (medium gap), then Spry?

[Iceaxe]

I don't believe there is such a thing as a progression of canyons.... and I'd really hate presenting them that way.... size, physical abilities and climbing skills are much more at play.

For example:

Middle Leprechaun is simple for smurfs, difficult for large frame canyoneers and it's impossible for anyone in the XL category.

Zero-G is a cakewalk if your a smurf's or anyone with 5.8 or better climbing skills. All others will have to deal with the R-rated bombay exit.

I've done Pine Creek dry and never even got my feet wet, I've done Pine Creek when it has an amazing amount of swimming, and I've done Pine Creek with flow. Each is a totally different animal. That last Pine Creek rappel is a real bitch for some, I seldom take noobs into Pine Creek because of it, I like them to get a few more canyons under their belt.

Technically Fat Man's Misery is a piece of cake, but it takes mediocre or better backcountry skills because of navigation and route finding. In addition it takes intermediate or better physical fitness because of the length.

A feller that is a Zion expert is total noob the first time he visits the skinnies...

When I was young we considered Subway to be a nice hike, now I'm older and my physical abilities have diminished some I consider it a technical canyon. So do you rate the canyon for age 25 or 50?

Trying to create a progression runs into the same problems you get when trying to rate canyons. Rating canyons is probably the most difficult and subjective item there is when in comes to spraying beta. What is normal conditions for a canyon?

I would recommend as an alternative you list several trade routes that are beginner friendly for popular areas. At least that allows for a baseline. When someone asks me about a particular canyon I usually ask what else they have done in the area and then I can have a knowledgable discussion with them.

But if you guys want to try and flowchart the canyons then have at it.

YMMV :popcorn:

[hank moon]

I don't believe there is such a thing as a progression of canyons....

I'm kinda with Shane on this one. BUT, there are good places to start, liiiiike ...Keyhole. Everyone's favorite starter slot. Beautiful, twisty and easily accessed, its chief complications are that it is dark, wet and cold. It's also mercifully short, and has an easy escape between middle and lower. I've heard of parties taking 3-5 hours in there, but that's rare. Doing Keyhole once as a noob is fun. Going for an immediate second or third round can be highly educational and confidence boosting. So do laps on Keyhole (or similar) first to dial in your fledgling skills. Then think about something else that is low-commitment, close to the road, with easy access and egress.

That said, everyone is different and a progression checklist could be very useful for the right person(s). Please, do carry on!

[jman]

I don't believe there is such a thing as a progression of canyons.... and I'd really hate presenting them that way.... size, physical abilities and climbing skills are much more at play.

For example:

Middle Leprechaun is simple for smurfs, difficult for large frame canyoneers and it's impossible for anyone in the XL category.

Zero-G is a cakewalk if your a smurf's or anyone with 5.8 or better climbing skills. All others will have to deal with the R-rated bombay exit.

I've done Pine Creek dry and never even got my feet wet, I've done Pine Creek when it has an amazing amount of swimming, and I've done Pine Creek with flow. Each is a totally different animal. That last Pine Creek rappel is a real bitch for some, I seldom take noobs into Pine Creek because of it, I like them to get a few more canyons under their belt.

Technically Fat Man's Misery is a piece of cake, but it takes mediocre or better backcountry skills because of navigation and route finding. In addition it takes intermediate or better physical fitness because of the length.

A feller that is a Zion expert is total noob the first time he visits the skinnies...

When I was young we considered Subway to be a nice hike, now I'm older and my physical abilities have diminished some I consider it a technical canyon. So do you rate the canyon for age 25 or 50?

Trying to create a progression runs into the same problems you get when trying to rate canyons. Rating canyons is probably the most difficult and subjective item there is when in comes to spraying beta. What is normal conditions for a canyon?

I would recommend as an alternative you list several trade routes that are beginner friendly for popular areas. At least that allows for a baseline. When someone asks me about a particular canyon I usually ask what else they have done in the area and then I can have a knowledgable discussion with them.

But if you guys want to try and flowchart the canyons then at it.

YMMV :popcorn:

All great points Shane. Those are the same issues and problems that I have come across as well. It's very subjective but you need a baseline somewhere. And how we reach that is complex. But something needs to change in my opinion. More and more people are discovering the sport, getting more bold in the sport, underestimate their skills AND canyon, etc. Its like rules - they are there to protect the general public. And there is not a lot of standardization or things that the community generally agrees on. And is that a problem? Is it suppose to be that way? Do you want to hand-tailor a trip for every single noob in the world? No. Part of the fun of canyoneering is the exploration, but they need to do it safely. Bottom line, and every time.

I agree that having a few beginner slots to choose from is a alternate good idea as well. But there are problems that arise from there too. I'm not looking for the perfect system because it won't exist ever. But, I think we need to better educate and train those who are too shy to ask for help or know where to start.

Darn, this is a tough cat to skin!! Lol

[jman]

I'm kinda with Shane on this one. BUT, there are good places to start, liiiiike ...Keyhole. Everyone's favorite starter slot. Beautiful, twisty and easily accessed, its chief complications are that it is dark, wet and cold. It's also mercifully short, and has an easy escape between middle and lower. I've heard of parties taking 3-5 hours in there, but that's rare. Doing Keyhole once as a noob is fun. Going for an immediate second or third round can be highly educational and confidence boosting. So do laps on Keyhole (or similar) first to dial in your fledgling skills. Then think about something else that is low-commitment, close to the road, with easy access and egress.

That said, everyone is different and a progression checklist could be very useful for the right person(s). Please, do carry on!

Thanks hank. It's not meant to be the end-all of lists or an exhaustive to become the worlds best canyoneer...it's just a baseline that the community can refer to when noobs say "well... Which canyons can I do in Moab...in Zion....etc..."

Yes, I get that this is EXTREMLY subjective but it needs a reference point.

[jman]

What is normal conditions for a canyon?



Ahhhh...see now we are getting somewhere!

Thanks to all of the awesome contributors from here and other forums, Canditon.com has exploded with reports, which in turn has created a trending pattern for a lot of canyons.

Go check out any popular canyon and you will start to see patterns. IE - "hasn't rained in 2 weeks but last pothole still chest deep" and "last pothole still chest deep" and "rained heavy and washed lots of sand into the canyon. Most potholes are filled with sand, but last pothole about waist-deep". Then, as more and more reports come in....we can now extrapolate "normal" conditions.

[Iceaxe]

Go check out any popular canyon and you will start to see patterns.

Hahaha.... you haven't even been around long enough to see the patterns.... more like in the 1990's. Pine Creek was really wet and always had a lot of long swims.... in the 2000's it dried up and could often be done with just minor wading.... recently it has started to swing back to the 90's version....



Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[jman]

Hahaha.... you haven't even been around long enough to see the patterns.... more like in the 1990's. Pine Creek was really wet and always had a lot of long swims.... in the 2000's it dried up and could often be done with just minor wading.... recently it has started to swing back to the 90's version....



Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

Good point. It's probably more like decade cycles or something. But hey, I'll take month to month, year by year. It all adds up...

[Iceaxe]

I believe you need to get noobs some practical in canyon experience..... once they have that and get a basic understanding of the sport most are smart enough to figure out the progression.

And then you have the ones that will just never figure it out no matter how many warnings you post or how many R's and X's you tack on the rating or where the canyon ends up on the flow chart... you can't fix stupid.

From writing beta I have learned you just have to draw the Darwin (dumbass?) line at some point or you will always be catering to the lowest common denominator and you will lose the top 3/4 of the class. So my suggestion is to target the meaty part of the bell curve.


YMMV


Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[oldno7]

The worst criteria for noob disaster, is noob teaching noob!!!

Any noob can get through a fairly difficult canyon with a seasoned canyoneer, and should!

There is no replacing learning from anothers experiences.

No matter--check ones credentials before doing a canyon with them.

And one other note when questioning someones resume--there is a BIG difference in leading a canyon and being responsible for others vs. following.

[Iceaxe]

^^^THIS^^^

Setting up some type of a mentor program would be a huge asset and probably a lot useful then flow charting canyons...

[jman]

^^^THIS^^^

Setting up some type of a mentor program would be a huge asset and probably a lot useful then flow charting canyons...

I agree 100%. And what I'm presenting isn't a flowing chart. Perhaps you are thinking this is just rainbows and unicorn thinking, or that I'm off in dreamland with this project. I'm not sure how you guys view this sport in 10-20 years, but it's only going to increase, and quickly too. What was it a month ago - over a 1000+ requests for June just for the subway?! And how many people have you come across in the subway that are ill-prepared, undressed, and lack the appropriate skills. And that's what I want to assist in changing.

Hank moon brought up a good point on Facebook mentioning the increase in SARs the past couple it years and that got me thinking about how can we slow this progressing trend? It comes down to this - more informed and better trained Canyoneers and leaders (who also train and lead better). That's it.

Then the next logical step is how do we make that happen? By only teaching in mentoring sessions and classrooms?

Most people aren't willing to spend $150 for a canyon let alone $200 for a rope?! There are many canyoneers who are just the weekend-warrior types and are not like us canyon junkies per se. And for the most part, it's the weekend-warriors who get into the most trouble right??

And where do weekend-warriors turn for their information - always, always, the Internet. And so with that logic - it got me thinking, how can we better inform and standardize what these people read and hear about?

Here is a great example of weekend-warriors oblivious-ness to the sport. They see a cool canyon like Englestead and see a 300ft rappel. Sounds wicked man! And so they buy a 300ft 8mm rope thinking they will be fine, and NOT taking into account the physics of the rope and rappelling. A 8mm rope at the top of the 300ft cliff isn't going to be a 8mm rope at the end. And so the rappeller goes faster and faster down the rope while thinking their hand is just getting tired while rappelling and that's why they are speeding up, when as we all now, the rope diameter is shrinking. That's just one example of ignorance to dynamics of the sport.

Letting these weekend-warrior types know of these hazards is only a good thing


But I agree 100% mentoring is the best way to learn. But that's if only the leader is a an expert, and not like as oldno7 said, a noob teaching a noob.

After hours of reflecting on this, It's probably best to ex the progression list and put that in another side project, and stick to the fundamentals and skills with my original plan for the 101.

[Iceaxe]

Take what I post with a grain of salt.... I'm just trying to give you some things to think about.... overall your project looks like a winner.

Be careful of building an elephant sandwich. You want to start with a small project and do it well, once it's up and running you can add-on.

:2thumbs:

[jman]

Take what I post with a grain of salt.... I'm just trying to give you some things to think about.... overall your project looks like a winner.

:2thumbs:

Thanks Shane. I really do appreciate and value everyone's opinion thus far, even if I come across as frantic or even angry, which I'm not. Quite the opposite.

Anyways, and incase I haven't said it already, thanks for the support and feedback. I'm pretty excited about its progress.

[hank moon]

There is no replacing learning from anothers experiences.

How about "There is no replacing learning from your own experience, under the guidance of an expert"

Which might be what you intended to say? In any event, total support for mentoring. It's a powerful tool.

I also think that Jman's progression list has many possibilities. Like...maybe if instead of formatting it as "progression" from one point to another, it was a canyon db that can be used to quickly reference good training areas for specific skills. I think we already have something like that (somewhere?) that filters by region and/or rating. How about adding a skill filter onto that? Click radio buttons for criteria such as natural anchoring, pothole escape, high stemming, multi-pitch rappels, raps < 50', raps > 200', navigational challenges, etc.

You could click on a few skills, filter by Zion and 3B and come up with Mystery Canyon as your next likely skills development spot.

[jman]

How about "There is no replacing learning from your own experience, under the guidance of an expert"

Which might be what you intended to say? In any event, total support for mentoring. It's a powerful tool.

I also think that Jman's progression list has many possibilities. Like...maybe if instead of formatting it as "progression" from one point to another, it was a canyon db that can be used to quickly reference good training areas for specific skills. I think we already have something like that (somewhere?) that filters by region and/or rating. How about adding a skill filter onto that? Click radio buttons for criteria such as natural anchoring, pothole escape, high stemming, multi-pitch rappels, raps < 50', raps > 200', navigational challenges, etc.

You could click on a few skills, filter by Zion and 3B and come up with Mystery Canyon as your next likely skills development spot.

Now thats a GREAT idea. Hmmmm....thanks Hank!

[oldno7]

jman--I completely applaud your effort:2thumbs:

Mentoring should be a part but in all likeness, probably rarely is.

My main point is that all to often, one reads or views canyon material, gets a friend and a rope and away they go.

I truly hope your effort will bring some of the inexperienced to a base of reality.

It would seem that a lot of folks underestimate canyoneering until it is to late.

I helped write up the technical course for the aca several years ago, I probably have that in a file somewhere if you would like to see it.

It would be nice if there was a way to get solid/workable skills into the hands of those starting out, your effort here is definitely a step in the right direction.

[Iceaxe]

My main point is that all to often, one reads or views canyon material, gets a friend and a rope and away they go.

HEY!!!

I resemble that statement. It wasn't all bad and in many ways it was a lot of fun. But you need to bring a large helping of commonsense....

Of course at the time it was also the only option and we had to also watch out for t-rex.


Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[oldno7]

HEY!!!

I resemble that statement. It wasn't all bad and in many ways it was a lot of fun. But you need to bring a large helping of commonsense....

Of course at the time it was also the only option and we had to also watch out for t-rex.


Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

Yea--but back then you were chiseling words on stone tablets, since that time, al gory invented the interwebs and I've been told they gots lots o info:ne_nau:
No doubt, common sense makes life in a canyon a whole lot more user friendly. For instance--do people understand that if you continually rub a piece of nylon over a rock, it will eventually break? Common sense to some--not so common to others!!