Orderville and Echo Canyons in Zion

[kaniukr]

Although I appreciate canyoneers rate canyons partly for the rappelling fun and challenge they pose, as I'm really a foreign tourist hiker my main priority is to see the most scenic parts of canyons (I've only used ropes a couple of times with other people's help, but if the rappelling sections of a canyon are the most scenic part, and it isn't too technical, I could take more tuition or try and find willing people to take me).

So I was wondering about Orderville and Echo in Zion.
I've heard the "lower" part of Orderville is the most photogenic, but does it only get really good after the last rope handline down (the part that can also be seen by hiking up from the Narrows), or does the really nice bit include some of the drops that require ropes further up towards Engelstead?

And with Echo, I know it's possible to hike up the bottom half to see a really pretty deep slot, but is the top half of Echo worth seeing, or is the bottom half the super scenic "must see" part and the attraction of the top half really is mainly for the fun of the canyoneering?

( I have seen the thread about non-technical parts of technical slots, but I am willing to try and get through technical parts if the scenery is as outstandingly good. The answers will help me decide whether to try and get proficient enough to do Orderville and Echo all the way through or just be content with the hiking parts that don't require any technical/climbing skills or ropes.)

PS I probably should have just used the term most scenic rather than photogenic, as I just want to SEE the most scenic sections, even with a strong headtorch, and don't necessarily have to have great photos if they're too dark. (I went to Buckskin and Pine Creek when the light was poor for photos but they were still amazing to see)

[Iceaxe]

Technically Orderville and Echo are pretty easy. If you can find someone to help you do the top down route your efforts will be rewarded, as you will get a much bigger bang for your buck. Same can be said for The Subway.

If you can only do the hike in from the bottom it's still worth doing, but you will miss a lot.

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[Deathcricket]

Good questions!

Echo is much tougher than Orderville IMO although still beginner freindly. Upper Echo has a lot of sketchy anchors built from rock piles, the middle Echo is also really dark and not good lighting for photos and bottom echo is not hikeable from the top. Lots of very short raps with hard starts and a very cold canyon. I think it's more impressive than Orderville in fact it's one of my favorite canyons to EXPERIENCE. But if you are going mainly for pictures you may be a bit disappointed, super dark in there. None of my pictures really came out good and even though I had a blast, I don't think I even posted a TR because my photo evidence was lacking hehe. But here is an example, notice how dialated our pupils are, and this was taken with a flash:
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Orderville is more impressive for photos IMO. But part of that is the lower half which is including the Narrows. There is at least 2 miles of "good stuff" above the narrows that you can't get by walked up it, only down. So yes it is worth it to walk down IMO. But walking up the narrows and then up Orderville you will still get some amazing shots if you choose that route. Technically it is not difficult, I can climb down all the obstacles without even using a rope. Here is a pic of me hanging off the toughest spot, like a 3 foot drop, but it has bolted anchors if you choose.
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Also another one you might want to put on your "radar" is Kanarra Creek. It is very simple, no ropes needed and has some excellent places to get good shots with ample light. I'm just a point and click person, but you get the idea...
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And then lastly... I think I have an actual video of the toughest spot in Orderville... Might help you to gauge how difficult it is... There are a couple other tough spots, but this is the worst one. This is from 2009 but it hasn't changed much over the years. The picture above is from this summer.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-R7zufJPnWE

[spinesnaper]

Whatever you do, don't jump off of things. It does not end pretty.

[Iceaxe]

If your goal is great pictures than Kanarra Creek should be #1 on you list of canyons to do.

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[kaniukr]

Thanks for the replies so far, but my question might have been a little misleading as I should have just used the term "most scenic/spectacular" part rather than most photogenic as people might have got the impression that I was focused on getting great pictures - and they replied Echo was too dark for great photos. To be clearer, what I meant was I want to SEE the best "wow" bits - even if it's with a headtorch - and don't have to come away with great photos if the light's not right, although that's always a bonus.
I can be guilty of being a bit photo obsessive, and while often a dark canyon might not be the greatest for photos or looking at, I went to Pine Creek, Buckskin Gulch/Wire Pass and Brimstone in poor light and didn't come away with great shots, but they were still amazing to see.

[Bootboy]

Thanks for the replies so far, but my question might have been a little misleading as I should have just used the term "most scenic/spectacular" part rather than most photogenic as people might have got the impression that I was focused on getting great pictures - and they replied Echo was too dark for great photos. To be clearer, what I meant was I want to SEE the best "wow" bits - even if it's with a headtorch - and don't have to come away with great photos if the light's not right, although that's always a bonus.
I can be guilty of being a bit photo obsessive, and while often a dark canyon might not be the greatest for photos or looking at, I went to Pine Creek, Buckskin Gulch/Wire Pass and Brimstone in poor light and didn't come away with great shots, but they were still amazing to see.

If narrows is the objective, echo has some pretty impressive sections. Take just a short rope if going top down. Otherwise, there are some neat sections you can hike into from the bottom. Another tip, do it as soon after a good flash as you can. Even soon after a flood, echo can smell like a porta-potty. It's a stinky one.

Orderville has very impressive sections of "Wow!" Narrows. Different scale than echo altogether. Orderville is a romp but it is long. Orderville is like a water park for big kids. If you're going before June, a wetsuit top will make it much more enjoyable. We did it in May and we were borderline hypothermic (cold day, late start)

[ratagonia]

Thanks for the replies so far, but my question might have been a little misleading as I should have just used the term "most scenic/spectacular" part rather than most photogenic as people might have got the impression that I was focused on getting great pictures - and they replied Echo was too dark for great photos. To be clearer, what I meant was I want to SEE the best "wow" bits - even if it's with a headtorch - and don't have to come away with great photos if the light's not right, although that's always a bonus.
I can be guilty of being a bit photo obsessive, and while often a dark canyon might not be the greatest for photos or looking at, I went to Pine Creek, Buckskin Gulch/Wire Pass and Brimstone in poor light and didn't come away with great shots, but they were still amazing to see.

Echo: 90% of Middle Echo can be accessed from the bottom. The usual obstacles to getting up there are two swims close to the end of the slot (ie, near the start of up-from-the-bottom) and one upclimb of a log pile (unless it washes out) which is not difficult. From there it is usually no more than knee deep wading for quite a ways through very nice narrows to the pool at the foot of the last rappel. If other than blazing hot, you will want a wetsuit for the top-down route - perhaps even for the bottom up route. The top-down route has a few short rappels.

http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/utah/zion/technical/echo-canyon/

Orderville: about 50% of the best section can be visited from below, but there are up-climbs that get progressively more difficult. And some swims. If it is not blazing hot out, you might want a wetsuit. From the top down it has a few short rappels (or handlines), but it is a fairly long hike, and getting to the start can be logistically difficult.

http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/utah/zion/technical/orderville-canyon/

Wetsuits can be rented in town at Zion Adventure Company. A shuttle to the Orderville (upper) trailhead can be purchased from Zion Adventure Company. (disclosure: I used to work for them).

Tom

[moab mark]

Not working for ZACS anymore?
:popcorn:

[ratagonia]

Not working for ZACS anymore?
:popcorn:

I have taken Emeritus status - and no one really knows what that means. 15 paid days last year, I expect fewer this year.

Tom

[TommyBoy]

If you can find someone to take you Birch Hollow is a fun easy canyon with some nice views and it drops into the upper section of orderville. It would be a long day though so starting early is key.

[mzamp]

Can you car camp at the Birch TH since it is outside Zion NP?

[Iceaxe]

The Birch trailhead is just a wide spot in the road and not suitable for camping. But, I have seen folks camp at the Orderville TH that is just up the road.

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[Bootboy]

Can you car camp at the Birch TH since it is outside Zion NP?

You can camp at the zion ponderosa ranch which is just down the road from birch hollow. It's reasonable plus you have access to the showers, pool, and hot tubs. The food is great and the staff is very friendly. The GM is a personal friend and is about the nicest guy you'll meet. Check em out.

[ratagonia]

The Birch trailhead is just a wide spot in the road and not suitable for camping. But, I have seen folks camp at the Orderville TH that is just up the road.


Most of the land in the area is Private, and camping should be considered prohibited. The exception is the Orderville Trailhead which is BLM (public land) and camping is allowed.

Please crap in a bag if you camp there, if'n you have to crap.

Tom