Please help with zion canyoneering questions

[kalaimer]

Hi Everybody,

Me and my boyfriend are planning a two week trip around the grand circle in MAY.

We'll be in zion for 3 days.

I've never done canyoneering. I've read a book - it seems like a lot of fun, but very gear intensive at the same time. The transition from water to vertical is insane.

Is there a "dry" canyoneering route somewhere in zion in may?

I want to rappel down, walk through a canyon for a bit and walk out all in one day. I don't want to swim or even wade in water. We're flying in and there's no way I want to bring a full rack of gear needed, wetsuits... etc. But I can bring a half rope, some pro and harnesses.

I've done high altitude mountaineering, so I'm pretty comfortable with the vertical. But I realize that addition of water makes it a completely different sport and the skills that used to work in the mountains might kill me in the canyon.

This is why I'm asking if this is available:
rappel down (preferably bolts)
walk for 1-5 hours
the bottom must be dry
walk out and not spend the night in the crack

Basically I want a "mountaineering" trip through the canyon and not get my feet wet.

Any ideas/suggestions?

[Scott P]

Basically I want a "mountaineering" trip through the canyon and not get my feet wet.

Maybe Behunin or Bridge Mountain Arch (a.k.a. Crawford Arch)? Behunin will still likely have a pool or two. Maybe Lower Refrigerator would be a good option.

Anyway, I assume that you have lots of experience with rope work? If so, you should be OK.

[Felicia]

To rent gear: http://www.zionadventures.com/

Canyon Beta: http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/utah/zion/technical/

I would not shy away from wet feet: wet feet are fun and they dry. :mrgreen:

[Iceaxe]

Maybe Behunin or Bridge Mountain Arch.

These are NOT slot canyons in the traditional sence if that is what you are looking for.

[Iceaxe]

I believe the canyons you should be looking at are Yankee Doodle and Birch Hollow.

Yankee Doodle Route Description

(http://climb-utah.com/Zion/yankee.htm)Birch Hollow Route Description

(http://climb-utah.com/Zion/birch1.htm)There is NO canyon on the Colorado Plateau I know of that does not require some wading depending on time of year or conditions. Remember, the canyons were formed by water, so it only makes sense you will likely encounter some.

I believe Yankee Doodle is your best bet for a number of reasons. The biggest reason being it will give you the biggest bang for your buck and does not require wetsuits. It normally requires only knee deep wading, is bolted and can be done with a 150' rope. The canyon is very noobie friendly.

This video shows Yankee Doodle Canyon...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FntBmOEP8sk

[kalaimer]

To rent gear: http://www.zionadventures.com/

Canyon Beta: http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/utah/zion/technical/

I would not shy away from wet feet: wet feet are fun and they dry. :mrgreen:

My concern is hypothermia. What's the water temperature like?

I guess occasional wade is ok.

I looked at this video of behunin:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xW0HyI8ooQE

I have a question about the 50 meter rappel. Does it have an extra set of bolts in the middle?

I was hoping we wouldn't have to carry two full length ropes.

[kalaimer]

I believe the canyons you should be looking at are Yankee Doodle and Birch Hollow.

Yankee Doodle Route Description

(http://climb-utah.com/Zion/yankee.htm)Birch Hollow Route Description

(http://climb-utah.com/Zion/birch1.htm)There is NO canyon on the Colorado Plateau I know of that does not require some wading depending on time of year or conditions. Remember, the canyons were formed by water, so it only makes sense you will likely encounter some.

I believe Yankee Doodle is your best bet for a number of reasons. The biggest reason being it will give you the biggest bang for your buck and does not require wetsuits. It normally requires only knee deep wading, is bolted and can be done with a 150' rope. The canyon is very noobie friendly.
Thank you. This looks very nice.

I'm hesitant about 6-8 hour trips "just in case". Zion will be at the end of our two week trip and I expect we'll be quite tired by then.

Birch hollow link seems broken for some reason.

[hike.higher]

I believe the canyons you should be looking at are Yankee Doodle and Birch Hollow.

Yankee Doodle Route Description

(http://climb-utah.com/Zion/yankee.htm)Birch Hollow Route Description

(http://www.bogley.com/forum/climb-utah.com/Zion/birch1.htm)There is NO canyon on the Colorado Plateau I know of that does not require some wading depending on time of year or conditions. Remember, the canyons were formed by water, so it only makes sense you will likely encounter some.

I believe Yankee Doodle is your best bet for a number of reasons. The biggest reason being it will give you the biggest bang for your buck and does not require wetsuits. It normally requires only knee deep wading, is bolted and can be done with a 150' rope. The canyon is very noobie friendly.

+1

I'm guessing no shuttle will also be an issue. Yankee Doodle is fun, short (2 hours) and easy. No shuttle car needed.

While Birch is a better canyon, without a shuttle car would be a bit of a hike.

[Iceaxe]

Birch hollow link seems broken for some reason.

Fixed: http://climb-utah.com/Zion/birch1.htm



My concern is hypothermia. What's the water temperature like?

Hypothermia should not be an issue with Yankee Doodle. We have never used wetsuits. You can get an update from Bogley a couple days before you go.

Question... what are you after exactly? The swirling slot canyon the southwest is famous for (Yankee Doodle)? or a chance to do a hike with some rappels (Behunin)?

If your goal is just to visit a really cool slot canyon with minimal effort you might want to look at exploring Buckskin Gulch (http://climb-utah.com/Escalante/buckskin.htm). Just enter at Wire Pass and hike it as a down and back. You can make that work for a 2 hour or 10 hour day.

Here is a video of Wire Pass and Buckskin Gulch done as a through hike.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AmNbGlDuCQ

[kalaimer]

Fixed: http://climb-utah.com/Zion/birch1.htm
Hypothermia should not be an issue with Yankee Doodle. We have never used wetsuits. You can get an update from Bogley a couple days before you go.
Cool. Will do.


Question... what are you after exactly?
1) come back alive. We've never done canyoneering.
2) limit hikes to day trips. I've never hiked in a proper desert. Zion is the last two nights of the trip before the plane, so getting stuck for an extra night means lots of money lost.
3) see as much of it as possible and get a feel for the place. We'll have two or three full days.

As a concept, rappels for the sake of rappels don't excite me. But if they allow us to get away from the crowds, see something cool and can be done with one 60m rope, it's all good. Me+nature+solitude+rope=fun. Because your nick is Iceaxe I assume you understand.

A rappel would take me a step away from THE ONE touristy spot with a line of people to find freedom of the hills, but not overwhelm to the point of needing a wetsuit.

I'd hire a guide, but we're a bit tight on funds as it is.



The swirling slot canyon the southwest is famous for (Yankee Doodle)? or a chance to do a hike with some rappels (Behunin)?
I'm open to all. Behunin seems nice, but it requires a second full length rope and might be just a tad too long. Although if we're at the trailhead an hour before sunrise, it leaves enough room for eventualities.


If your goal is just to visit a really cool slot canyon with minimal effort you might want to look at exploring Buckskin Gulch (http://climb-utah.com/Escalante/buckskin.htm). Just enter at Wire Pass and hike it as a down and back. You can make that work for a 2 hour or 10 hour day.
Looks good. Judging by the look of the visitors, it seems user friendly. :)

If we're flying from canada, is it ok to wrap a 60 meter rope around your head and claim it to be a hat? :crazy:

[Iceaxe]

Just a thought... buy a new rope when you get here and mail it back to yourself when you leave. You can never have too many ropes. Lots of places to buy a rope near Zion.


Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[kalaimer]

Just a thought... buy a new rope when you get here and mail it back to yourself when you leave. You can never have too many ropes. Lots of places to buy a rope near Zion.

I have about 2000 feet of rope in europe and about 1000 feet in north america. I'm trying to avoid more rope.

[erial]

When you do your Grand Circle trip will you be passing thru Bryce Canyon National Park? If so, you should consider going a bit further north to Escalante. The Hole in the Rock road will take you to some dry non-technical slots such as Spooky, Peek-a-Boo and Brimstone.


Similarly, if you were traveling from Zion to Grand Canyon North, you could head for the Wire Pass trailhead (House Rock Valley Rd twixt Kanab and Page) and hike into Buckskin Gulch for as many hours as you wanted. Might be muddy, but likely no wading or swimming.


In Zion, you could always hike up Hidden Canyon for as far as you'd be comfortable. Would be dry. You could do it top down, but that would likely take you longer than five hours and require two vehicles or some hitchhiking. Zion also offers some challenging slickrock scrambles. North Guardian Angel would be a good one.

[dlofting]

Not sure if you're aware, but the last rap in Behunin is a free rappel. I just mention it because my son, who is an advanced rock climber, hates free rappels, while my wife, who is a single pitch/top rope beginner, loves them.

[Iceaxe]

Behunin is the biggest waste of a good day available in Zion National Park....

There are so many other canyoneering choices that are so much better... just sayin'

:popcorn:

[ratagonia]

Behunin is a great canyon, especially in the spring. Of course, opinions vary. :naughty: In the spring, it certainly can be cold and wet. Part of its charm.

Tom :moses:

[Mountaineer]

Behunin is the biggest waste of a good day available in Zion National Park....

There are so many other canyoneering choices that are so much better... just sayin'

:popcorn:

Haven't done all the Zions yet...but maybe. It is a long hike, but worth it. I really liked this canyon. Fun! The last few raps are different and challenging. (But as you stated Iceaxe, anytime you are out in a canyon with family and friends it is always a good day).

[Iceaxe]

My deal with Behuinin is it's not a traditional slot canyon. If I want to rappel down a wide dry drainage in a pretty setting I can do that above my home and save myself the 5 hour drive. I hate to see folks who come from a long distance waste a day in Behunin when I think there are much better choices.... if you have done most the other canyons in Zion or are local it's a nice hike with a couple of rappels. But I personally don't cinsider the route to be "canyoneering".

YMMV

[Brian in SLC]

see as much of it as possible and get a feel for the place. We'll have two or three full days...Behunin seems nice, but it requires a second full length rope and might be just a tad too long. Although if we're at the trailhead an hour before sunrise, it leaves enough room for eventualities.

Count me as another fan of Behunin. Its a neat gig. I like loop hikes that don't see the same scenery. And, coming out near the Emerald Pools is great. Hiking up near the West Rim has nice views. Its a day with some mileage, though, and, there's the two rope thing. If you only have 2-3 days in Zion I'd probably suggest a day hike to Angels Landing (could be done as a side trip to Behunin...bigger day though and there's that second rope issue).

Pine Creek, if reasonably dry would be great. The Keyhole/Pine Creek combo would be super even if you had to rent a wet/dry suit to pull it off. If you did Middle Echo (given conditions of course) you could use the same suit the next day in that canyon as it always has water. Nice hike up to the East Rim could be done too.

Longer day, but, the Subway would be great just as a hike in/out.

If you've never been to Zion...even if crowded, you still might want to pluck off the more popular stuff. Popular for good reason.

Spry would be nice but you'd need more rope for that one too.

If the water levels permit, a descent down Orderville and into the Narrows would be great. Or, just the hike up and back. Might be pretty chilly in May so a wet/dry suit would be prudent.

[kalaimer]

I'm still limiting stuff to dry stuff only.

And I'm open to other parks .

It's hard to book everything and to optimize it all. I was not able to book a campsite in canoyonlands, so before zion we're staying at arches for four days and bryce for two days. Out of arches, we'll be doing trips to canyonlands ntl pk.

I wasn't figure out how to camp in between those two parks and what to do.

We booked the tickets three weeks ago then then were frantically researching where to go and which parks to visit the two weeks we're there. Some of the stuff was being booked fast, so we just made a loop.

I gotta say you guys have it really nice in the US. There's one central system and NPS/BLM camping is much cheaper than in canada. Two weeks in canadian parks would cost about 800 bucks.

[Kuya]

Lots of dry canyons near Moab and in Arches NP :) Just have to be careful of the snow.

[Brian in SLC]

Undeveloped camping is everywhere and that is even less expensive...

[kalaimer]

Undeveloped camping is everywhere and that is even less expensive...

How do I go finding it? At least next time I come over? I found it quite confusing and I didn't want to find myself camping where I'm not supposed to.

[2065toyota]

I think you are worrying about it too much. When it gets closer, post up and invite and there were will be plenty of people to go with you. There are plenty of canyons for you to do on your visit

[dlofting]

Dragonfly is a nice canyon in Arches, but you may run into a bit of water in the potholes....nowhere near enough to worry about hypothermia though. There's also some nice hiking in Arches right near the campsite if you're staying at Devils Garden.

[Mojave Silence]

How do I go finding it? At least next time I come over? I found it quite confusing and I didn't want to find myself camping where I'm not supposed to.

Tons of BLM land in S. Utah, and on both sides of Zion where you can camp for free and get away from those noisey Zion campgrounds. Stop by the BLM office in St George, it is a map lovers paradise:
http://www.blm.gov/ut/st/en/fo/st__george.html

[erial]

So in Arches I believe you would be staying in the Devils Garden campground which is a slow albeit scenic 18 miles from the park entrance. After 4 days you may get sick of that road. If you were planning on visiting the Squaw Flat/Needles district, you could camp not far from the park entrance. There is a private campground called Needles Outpost. I've never camped there. There has been forum chatter that a crazy lady runs the place. That may no longer be the case. I camp about three miles from the park entrance. There is a good dirt road turnoff to the north (Lockhart Basin Rd). Just a few hundred yards down that road on the left is a perfectly pleasant roadside place to camp. Maybe a half mile further is a small BLM campground, Hamburger Rock.

In the Zion area the following link offers up some camping options:

http://zion100.wordpress.com/2012/02/27/camping-options/

I don't believe Arches or Zion parks has showers. Bryce does. You may want to pack one of those solar heated shower bags.


Finally, if you're flying in/out of Vegas you may want to consider doing Anniversary Narrows.

[dweaver2130]

If you google search for "Moab showers" you can find a list of about ten places that offer showers to campers for around $5.

The needles outpost lady is out there, unfortunately I would have to advise not to count on anything from that place based on mine and other's experiences.

There are a lot of places on the blm to camp by arches and needles. The wife and I decided to go for the $35/night hotel in Moab instead of the $20/night arches campground.

[kalaimer]

I camp about three miles from the park entrance. There is a good dirt road turnoff to the north (Lockhart Basin Rd). Just a few hundred yards down that road on the left is a perfectly pleasant roadside place to camp.
Is that a free primitive campground?


Maybe a half mile further is a small BLM campground, Hamburger Rock.
Is that one bookable or first come first serve?


I don't believe Arches or Zion parks has showers. Bryce does. You may want to pack one of those solar heated shower bags.
I've had good luck with a 6L MSR dromedary so far. Just enough to "shower" two people with a drizzle.



Finally, if you're flying in/out of Vegas you may want to consider doing Anniversary Narrows.
Will look into it.

The reason I booked arches for four nights is because canyonlands didn't have a bookable campground, so if worst came to worst I'd be exploring canyonlands out of arches. I know it seems backwards, but I just wanted to get it over with and have places to stay. The whole thing was quite spontaneous - book tickets first, then start planning the trip and looking at parks and possible things to do.

My booked schedule so far looks like this:
fly into vegas - first night there is a hotel
then three nights at grand canyon
two nights for petrified forest/canyon de chelly
four nights at arches (explore canyonlands from there)
two nights at bruce canyon
two nights at zion
vegas - fly out

I know it's probably not optimal, but I was sick of looking at everything online and wanted to get it over with cause I had work deadlines coming up and would not be able to look at it seriously again for a while. Having to find, research and book each private campground is a pain and the owners of those often seem certifiably insane.

But I have a feeling I'll be coming back for more, so next time... :)

[erial]

[QUOTE=kalaimer;525686]Is that a free primitive campground? Free, just a carcamp friendly spot along the road. Probably more like it if you were to travel further north on the dirt road.


Is that one bookable or first come first serve? First come, first serve. Fee $6. There's a second BLM campground further north along the road.

[kalaimer]

Oh well. What the heck. Next time I'll camp around for free.

This trip I'll help out the economy on my meager budget :)

[dlofting]

You're going to have a great time in all those places you're planning to visit...and yes, you will be back for more. We go to Utah every year. Have fun!!