beta for sad cow disease ?

[levifackrell]

63085
MISSING: due to the little to no info on this canyon i am calling a bogley wide search for it along with a beta.
INFO : Escalante? http://utoutdoors.blogspot.com/2010/05/sad-cow-disease.html

[Slot Machine]

Oh yeah! I wanna play! :banana:

The landscape shots supplied on Eric's website are very tough to pinpoint. Online you can find more photos of that canyon, if you look very carefully. But again, they are also very difficult to pinpoint. The good folks that elected to share those photos did so with great care. 'Twas fun to figure this one out. :twisted:

I've never been there, so I don't know precisely which one it is, but it must be one of these 4 canyons:

63089

That being said, I'd bet the farm that Sad Cow is canyon "B". I'd also bet that getting to the top of "B" is kind of a pain. I'm guessing it is done one of these two ways:

63090

Sooo... remember, "B" is just a guess. One other guess - I'll bet Sad Cow is not a tough canyon. There are no pictures of wetsuits, silos, potholes or rope tricks anywhere. There is no mention of it being a harrowing adventure. Is it easy? Looks like it, but I don't know. Some of the folks in those photos are expert canyoneers, and could make many things look easy. Obviously, your mileage (or mine) could vary greatly.

Bob

[stefan]

I've never been there, so I don't know precisely which one it is, but it must be one of these 4 canyons:



kelsey calls these the 'little baker slots'

[levifackrell]

kelsey calls these the 'little baker slots'
63116
http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?an=Kelsey%2C+Michael+R.
it looks like it is this book but im not 100% sure so here is a cheap sight for guide books from kelsey

[levifackrell]

That being said, I'd bet the farm that Sad Cow is canyon "B". I'd also bet that getting to the top of "B" is kind of a pain.


well seeing that the nearest road is 111

[Scott P]

That's the old book and those canyons are not in it.

This is the book that has those canyons:

http://www.amazon.com/Technical-Canyon-Guide-Colorado-Plateau/dp/094451023X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1359415967&sr=8-1&keywords=technical+slot+canyon+guide

[Slot Machine]

[QUOTE=levifackrell;525112]well seeing that the nearest road is 111

[dweaver2130]

Well driving down a river is rarely successful, unless you are driving one of those new fiats. What you need yourself is a boat. Unless you find a migratory swallow who is Not carrying a coconut.

[levifackrell]

sorry to burst your bubble but i dont think this is sad cow ( looks like ABC are something to explore ) the blog says "After our hike into Phipps Wash we drove into town" the nearest town is 3 miles away from the "TH" and the total length of the canyon there and back is ~16 miles, i know shaggy has been there since he has pictures of this canyon ( http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?41394 )
63127
also this is the end of the canyon it dose not look the area of our maps

[Slot Machine]

sorry to burst your bubble but i dont think this is sad cow ( looks like ABC are something to explore ) the blog says "After our hike into Phipps Wash we drove into town" the nearest town is 3 miles away from the "TH" and the total length of the canyon there and back is ~16 miles, i know shaggy has been there since he has pictures of this canyon ( http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?41394 )
also this is the end of the canyon it dose not look the area of our maps

You not being able to find your ass with either hand in no way bursts my bubble. That is, your ineptitude in no way disproves my theory.

If you read CAREFULLY, the drive back to town could have been the day before, the week before, ANY time before their approach to Sad Cow. They hiked Phipps wash, had dinner, then they drove to meet Ram's crew. Then they probably camped, THEN they approached Sad Cow in the morning. Jesus, have you even tried to figure this out for yourself?? :facepalm1:

Shaggy has been there? REALLY?? :facepalm1: You don't remember post #41 from your "best canyon" thread?...


I belive that Eric from that site is @Shaggy from Bogley. If you are serious about going, send him a PM and he might tell you. He is a super nice dude.

Finally, I don't care where their exit hike was. It could be any direction from the slot, and many miles away. Of all their photos, you just pointed out the LEAST relevant. Nice work. :2thumbs:

:wallbash:

Bob

[jman]

Take it easy fellows - it's just a canyon.

[Slot Machine]

Take it easy fellows - it's just a canyon.

Ok, ok... I'll play nice. :mrgreen:

Truth be told, I now want to find this thing at least as bad as Levi.

[levifackrell]

Sorry for thinking that way I just don't want anyone to be dedicated to those 3 canyons. I'm just trying to point things out that MAY be helpful to find it. I'm only 18 so I'm trying to figure this out to my best abilities. Shaggy isn't responding to my message I sent him so I was thinking someone else may know where it is. I think it's amazing that you found those 3 canyons, I would have never noticed them. Who knows you may be able to name those canyons if they happen to be no named canyons.

[Slot Machine]

...so I was thinking someone else may know where it is.

Well... anyone that has been there, and knows the answer for sure, will probably not tell you. Stefan probably knows for sure. I think his post is a "tell".

Sadly for you, my guesswork is probably be better than anything a person in "the know" will divulge. :roll:

I'm adding the Little Baker Slots to my Escalante trip list. They look super fun, even if Sad Cow isn't there. Either way, we'll see if I'm right by May.

Bob

[Sandstone Addiction]

Something else to consider...the canyon was named in 2010 because of a bovine mother and her calf were found dead. I don't believe anyone has ran cattle in the Escalante River drainage since '99. So either they were dead a looooong time, or it's somewhere else.

[ratagonia]

Well... anyone that has been there, and knows the answer for sure, will probably not tell you. Stefan probably knows for sure. I think his post is a "tell".

Sadly for you, my guesswork is probably be better than anything a person in "the know" will divulge. :roll:

I'm adding the Little Baker Slots to my Escalante trip list. They look super fun, even if Sad Cow isn't there. Either way, we'll see if I'm right by May.

Bob

Actually, Bob, this is a falsehood, and YOU of all people should know it is a falsehood.

It's a pretty good canyon. If you would like to visit it with us, Levi, under Show Not Tell agreement, send me an email. CanyoneeringUSA@gmail.com

Bob has had that offered to him, but chose not to correspond.

Tom :moses:

[Slot Machine]

Actually, Bob, this is a falsehood, and YOU of all people should know it is a falsehood.

You are correct, I didn't mention EVERY option for finding this canyon. I left out the "show-don't-tell" option, and probably should have mentioned it. I didn't intend to vilify anyone "in the know". I'm merely stating that nobody is going to show up on this forum and straight-up tell Levi the answer. Tom, I honestly did not intend to ruffle your feathers. :hippy:

FWIW Levi, I don't even consider "deal making" an option. What I find, I share. My omission is reflection of me, and my values. Nothing more.

Bob

[Slot Machine]

Something else to consider...the canyon was named in 2010 because of a bovine mother and her calf were found dead. I don't believe anyone has ran cattle in the Escalante River drainage since '99. So either they were dead a looooong time, or it's somewhere else.

After hiking out there a bit, we've seen cows every-freaking-where out there. There were cow patties on the buttress between E3 and E4! How the hell did a cow get there??

Seriously, there are no cows on the mesa west of the Escalante? (honest question) Not that it matters, my conclusion isn't based on where cattle graze...

[ratagonia]

After hiking out there a bit, there a cows every-freaking-where out there. There were cow patties on the buttress between E3 and E4! How the hell did a cow get there??

Seriously, there are no cows on the mesa west of the Escalante? (honest question) Not that it matters, my conclusion isn't based on where cattle graze...

I agree. There's cows all over the place. They wander.

Tom :moses:

[Iceaxe]

FWIW Levi, I don't even consider "deal making" an option. What I find, I share. My omission is reflection of me, and my values. Nothing more.

x2

IMHO - If you are not a believer in the show don't tell system you should not participate.

Also a little advise gained from lots of experience. Just stick around and pay attention and the canyon will find you soon enough. To this date I've found every canyon I was looking for in a reasonable time frame. And while you wait patiently there a plenty of other canyons to tick off the list.

YMMV


Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[Iceaxe]

FWIW: One of the biggest problems I have with "show-don't-tell" is that by definition I'm being "guided" through the canyon. I prefer to pull up my big boy pants and do the route without dad holding my hand.

[levifackrell]

Well I believe in show don't tell. It makes it so the canyon looks its best and isn't covered in clown webbing, staircases installed into the walls and drawings on the walls( not pictographs )

[Iceaxe]

Well I believe in show don't tell. It makes it so the canyon looks its best and isn't covered in clown webbing, staircases installed into the walls and drawings on the walls( not pictographs )

Actually my experience it just the opposite happens... as word starts to leak out folks go loaded for bear looking for the canyon. This results in multiple social trails, rat nests of clown webbing, and the sprouting of bolt gardens.

Show-don't-tell works great for preserving the pristine for a short period, but long term it is detrimental to the canyon. I prefer to look at slots in 10 year cycles.

YMMV

[Slot Machine]

FWIW: One of the biggest problems I have with "show-don't-tell" is that by definition I'm being "guided" through the canyon. I prefer to pull up my big boy pants and do the route without dad holding my hand.

I couldn't agree more. The sense of adventure is very real without a human safety net. It's the difference between being an adventurer and a tourist IMO. Obviously, only doing first descents would be the purest form of canyoneering adventure, but one cannot simply do a first descent every day. The downside of this mentor-free approach is that your risk is substantially increased. For example, taking my small inexperienced crew through Shenanigans was hair-raising and risky, but it was a thrilling and deeply rewarding day that can't be duplicated. You can only be introduced to Shenany once. Do you want someone with you holding your hand? Is your group ok with the risk? You might say it wasn't worth the risk. I do, and so do the people I was with. That being said, every person gets something different out of canyoneering. I'm not saying what you should find rewarding, just offering my point of view.

I think finding Sad Cow in person would be vastly more rewarding than being guided there. Just a point to ponder.


Well I believe in show don't tell. It makes it so the canyon looks its best and isn't covered in clown webbing, staircases installed into the walls and drawings on the walls( not pictographs )

Do what works for you! Post a trip report when you get back. (Oh, I joke, I joke) :lol8::haha::lol8::haha:

[ratagonia]

So, let me get this straight ---

You LOVE doing beta-less descents - but you are super indignant that we won't give you beta on demand. WTF???????????????????????????? :facepalm1:


You decline our invitations to go do canyons with us, and then you are all uppity snuppity about HOW we 'take people down canyons'. Ie, you heavily criticize something you know nothing about. WTF??????????????????????????????? :facepalm1::crazycobasa:

:moses:

[dweaver2130]

I think if I really wanted to do some of these show don't tell canyons and still wanted to feel like I was not simply being "guided" through a route this is what I would do...

I would ask for someone to show me the route, and also ask them to let me lead or at least give me the opportunity to figure out the small details, like anchors, down climbs, etc. If my choices would increase resource damage or contribute to building rat's nests of webbing or the like, they would be there to say so. At the same time it would allow me to develop my skills and progress as a canyoneer.

That should prevent the stuff ice talked about, while still letting one flex their own brain power. Having someone there who has the experience in the route can only be a benefit to the group.

I don't know if I my ideas are well thought out or not, but they seem to impress the hamster running the wheel in my skull.

[MSchasch]

I would ask for someone to show me the route, and also ask them to let me lead or at least give me the opportunity to figure out the small details, like anchors, down climbs, etc. If my choices would increase resource damage or contribute to building rat's nests of webbing or the like, they would be there to say so. At the same time it would allow me to develop my skills and progress as a canyoneer.


This is how it usually works.

New to you, you go first, the "showers" hang out in the back unless assistance is needed or warranted.

[dweaver2130]

Oh ok, well then that's awesome!

[Iceaxe]

This is how it usually works.

New to you, you go first, the "showers" hang out in the back unless assistance is needed or warranted.

:roflol: :roflol: :roflol:

That's exactly how I canyoneer with my kids! :2thumbs:

It's a great way to learn, but they are still being guided and daddy is there to bail them out of any situation they can't handle.

Thanks for making my point so crystal clear....

There is a huge difference between trying to figure out the problem and having to figure out the problem.

[Slot Machine]

Hehehe :hahaha: *rubs temples*


So, let me get this straight --- You LOVE doing beta-less descents

Yes.


- but you are super indignant that we won't give you beta on demand.

No way. I don't care what you do. Or don't do. Apathy is my only emotion here. :yawn:


You decline our invitations to go do canyons with us,

So?


and then you are all uppity snuppity about HOW we 'take people down canyons'.

Hiking with others is great! I only find it uncomfortable and odd that swearing people to secrecy is a part of any hike. It's just hiking. :ne_nau:


Ie, you heavily criticize something you know nothing about.

To use your word, falsehood, would be appropriate here. I know WAY more than I ever wanted to know about this aspect of hiking. I feel sick. Time to barf. :lol8:
_______________________

Weird, I wasn't even trying to pick a fight here. Just trying to give Levi another point of view... Freak out if you must. My upset-o-meter is still on zero.

Bob

[SRG]

IMHO - If you are not a believer in the show don't tell system you should not participate.

Well I believe in show don't tell.

What's all this believing talk? It's "show-don't-tell", not the tooth fairy :haha:

I don't really understand why one would want to put a canyon on show-don't-tell status, as Shane said it does seem to backfire.
But I really don't understand why some are so offended by what others do or don't do with their beta, why does it matter if some folks want to keep the canyons they discovered relatively secret?

[Slot Machine]

I think if I really wanted to do some of these show don't tell canyons and still wanted to feel like I was not simply being "guided" through a route this is what I would do...

I would ask for someone to show me the route, and also ask them to let me lead or at least give me the opportunity to figure out the small details, like anchors, down climbs, etc. If my choices would increase resource damage or contribute to building rat's nests of webbing or the like, they would be there to say so. At the same time it would allow me to develop my skills and progress as a canyoneer.

That should prevent the stuff ice talked about, while still letting one flex their own brain power. Having someone there who has the experience in the route can only be a benefit to the group.

I don't know if I my ideas are well thought out or not, but they seem to impress the hamster running the wheel in my skull.

I think your post is very well thought out, and if that is what makes you smile, then by all means do it. :2thumbs:

But,


There is a huge difference between trying to figure out the problem and having to figure out the problem.

I love being forced to solve big problems. ^^This^^ is what makes me smile. :mrgreen:

Bob

[Iceaxe]

But I really don't understand why some are so offended by what others do or don't do with their beta, why does it matter if some folks want to keep the canyons they discovered relatively secret?

The "offense" occurs when anther "secret" canyon is outted... and then everyone who has been keeping the secret gets all uppity requesting that posts be removed from Bogley because they divulge the big secret.

I could careless how folks want to share their personal beta. Just don't start whining when someone else posts the canyon.

And something else to keep In mind that I consider very important. The first guy to post the beta generally gets to establish the ethics. A secondary item is the first person to post often gets to name the route.

[Slot Machine]

What's all this believing talk? It's "show-don't-tell", not the tooth fairy :haha:

*SHOOTS BEER OUT OF MY NOSE, FALLS OFF CHAIR LAUGHING*

:roflmao1:

Well done sir, well done.

[MrAdam]

Actually my experience it just the opposite happens... as word starts to leak out folks go loaded for bear looking for the canyon. This results in multiple social trails, rat nests of clown webbing, and the sprouting of bolt gardens.

Show-don't-tell works great for preserving the pristine for a short period, but long term it is detrimental to the canyon. I prefer to look at slots in 10 year cycles.

YMMV

Ice, you have said this many times on both this forum and the yahoo groups, but I havent seen a specific example of where and when this has been the case. Care to back up your statement with evidence?

[Iceaxe]

If you have seen it many times before than you have also seen the numerous times I've documented specific cases. How about you try using the search button so I don't hsve to keep doing your homework for you. I know I detailed several cases a couple months ago when we had this same discussion.

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[ratagonia]

If you have seen it many times before than you have also seen the numerous times I've documented specific cases. How about you try using the search button so I don't hsve to keep doing your homework for you. I know I detailed several cases a couple months ago when we had this same discussion.


That's IceAdze for "no".

T

[Iceaxe]

I'm on my phone for the next few days with no access to a computer. Easy enough to click the search button on your computer. I spelled this all out for you recently.

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[MSchasch]

Hey Slot, You love betaless descents? When did you do one of those? You are still really new to the sport, impressive! TR? Please don't rub it in our face and then not post the beta...

Oh unless you are just trolling like iceaxe.

[2065toyota]

Has there really ever been a case that you wanted to do canyon, that without a little bit of searching or asking that someone wouldn't give you the beta. I have never had any issues at all with anybody withholding information. Just because it isn't readily available at the exact moment you want to look at it doesn't mean there is a show don't tell stigma to it.

[Slot Machine]

Hey Slot, You love betaless descents? When did you do one of those? You are still really new to the sport, impressive! TR? Please don't rub it in our face and then not post the beta...

Oh unless you are just trolling like iceaxe.

Not trolling. Just trying to get Tom's question answered in a timely fasion. I have this life away from Bogley that requires my attention. One can only spend so many hours a day answering questions.

I like using minimal beta, depending on the canyon. No betaless descents.

Anything else you want to nitpick?? :fitz: What's next? A measure-off?

[yetigonecrazy]

I would rather miss an opportunity to see a canyon than be force fed somebody else's awesomeness. you found it first? cool. don't want to play well with others and share beta? sweet. but I'm not going to be forced to play tag along (even if I'm in the lead, like Ice said, it's still having your hand held.....) just because someone needs an ego-boosting validation that they "found" the canyon. I'll find it on my own, or I wont. Simple. Asking for beta on canyons around here is like asking anything in a room full of deaf kids- they may see youre asking something, but youre never going to get a clear answer, or anything helpful.....anyway, ymmv.

[2065toyota]

How many people have completed all the published canyons? Until then does it really matter if there are "secret" canyons? Or is it just the principle if the thing of feeling left out that is the issue?

[ratagonia]

I would rather miss an opportunity to see a canyon than be force fed somebody else's awesomeness. you found it first? cool. don't want to play well with others and share beta? sweet. but I'm not going to be forced to play tag along (even if I'm in the lead, like Ice said, it's still having your hand held.....) just because someone needs an ego-boosting validation that they "found" the canyon. I'll find it on my own, or I wont. Simple. Asking for beta on canyons around here is like asking anything in a room full of deaf kids- they may see you're asking something, but you're never going to get a clear answer, or anything helpful.....anyway, ymmv.

Ah, now I understand.

GRANTED - you have my 100% permission to go wander around in the desert and explore and find canyons at will. Have a good time out there, enjoy yourself, bring everyone back. Please don't leave a mess.

I'm glad the whole conflict was so easy to resolve.

Here's a great essay by Wyoming Dave that talks about some of the trials and tribulations of finding canyons:

http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/0712exploration/

Tom

[yetigonecrazy]

Have a good time out there, enjoy yourself, bring everyone back. Please don't leave a mess.

Sounds like a great time to me. No passwords, no contracts, no handshakes.....just good friends and that beautiful Utah sun.

[Slot Machine]

How many people have completed all the published canyons?

Zero.


Until then does it really matter if there are "secret" canyons?

It depends on what you want to do. If I'm interested on doing the cool rap in Neon that I just saw a picture of, and there is no beta, then it matters.


Or is it just the principle if the thing of feeling left out that is the issue?

I think it's not so much a feeling of being left out, but more of an expectation of normal human interaction.

Let's say you walk into an auditorium full of seasoned canyoneers. It's open mic night. You can ask whatever you like. You approach the podium and hold up a photo of a canyon that you found in some magazine. You say to the audience, "This canyon looks cool, I would like to do it. Could somebody in the audience tell me where it is?"

If the audience were dead silent, wouldn't that seem awfully strange? If you knew that people in the audience knew the answer, or had even been there, wouldn't that seem even more strange?

If one person stood up in the audience and proclaimed, "I will happily take you there, on one condition: You can tell nobody else in the audience about the canyon upon your return." Wouldn't that seem completely bizarre? Wouldn't everyone in the audience turn and glare? Wouldn't most of the people in the auditorium have negative feelings about that statement? I'd think so.

Personally, I would always expect someone in the audience to answer with something like, "It's next door to such-and-such canyon. It's a 3BII; take a 200 foot rope. You'll love it, be safe and have a good time."

Call me sane, but that's the issue in a nutshell. At least to me.

Bob

[2065toyota]

Have 'YOU' ever been denied beta with even the smallest amount of effort of finding it?

I really am curious. Because its never been a issue. Thx

[Slot Machine]

Have 'YOU' ever been denied beta with even the smallest amount of effort of finding it?

I really am curious. Because its never been a issue. Thx

Sure I have, here:

http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?66180-Micro-Death-Hollow-Beta-Needed

Micro death is very close to Escalante. Just a couple of miles. It would make a killer hike if you exited downstream to the road. I'd bet hundreds of people have done it. But, no responses at all? Kinda strange. So I went and scouted it. I have a friend that also scouted it. We plan on doing it soon, so I don't need the beta now.

I've asked about lots of crap on The Amazing Map thread, and had no responses. If you have a whole bunch of free time, you can check out those posts too.

To be fair, I ask a LOT of questions, and most of them get answered. So I'm grateful for that. However, I'm still surprised whenever I post a dud, like Micro Death. No biggie. I'll get 'er done. :cool2:

Bob

[2065toyota]

I've only used the amazing map thread to get the amazing map. I guess if I wanted beta bad enough I would start a thread or just ask somebody. Sorry if you have been denied beta on a small percentage. I really didn't think there was any at all so I am wrong. However, I don't feel like everyone is entitled to everything. Just like I don't think the guy demanding he be served faster and better at a restaurant should be served any quicker. Seems like this always turns into a conspiracy theory type event rather than a factually based legitimate concern.
Thanks all that have helped me in the past and those who do so in the future. Have fun and be safe. Hopefully to meet some new people next weekend in Moab

[ratagonia]

I've only used the amazing map thread to get the amazing map. I guess if I wanted beta bad enough I would start a thread or just ask somebody. Sorry if you have been denied beta on a small percentage. I really didn't think there was any at all so I am wrong. However, I don't feel like everyone is entitled to everything. Just like I don't think the guy demanding he be served faster and better at a restaurant should be served any quicker. Seems like this always turns into a conspiracy theory type event rather than a factually based legitimate concern.

Thanks all that have helped me in the past and those who do so in the future. Have fun and be safe. Hopefully to meet some new people next weekend in Moab

You should note, Kody, that Bob explicitly declines to participate in any off-the-radar discussions. Thus, most people who have off-the-radar beta (the kind he is looking for) have no desire to correspond with him. It is kind of a self-fulfilling prophesy.

Tom :moses:

[CarpeyBiggs]

Micro death is very close to Escalante. Just a couple of miles. It would make a killer hike if you exited downstream to the road. I'd bet hundreds of people have done it. But, no responses at all? Kinda strange. So I went and scouted it. I have a friend that also scouted it. We plan on doing it soon, so I don't need the beta now.
hundreds? i doubt it. it's just not that great of a canyon. and it has a 300 foot rappel in it, so not very many people have the gear to pull it off. but yeah, a few of us have likely done it.

with that said bob, i'm sorry you don't see why this is happening. you are asking for help from people while simultaneously offending them and mischaracterizing them. why, exactly, would any of us want to help you?

why didn't you contact me directly about Micro Death, instead of publicly posting my TR on this site and then suggesting publicly I won't give you any help? I honestly never even saw that question. but that's because my participation on this forum is almost nonexistent now, because of the countless situations exactly like this one.

you, and a few others, are particularly vocal on bogley, always complaining about this idea of the "a team," the elitists, secret handshakes, blood oaths, etc... but the fact remains, if you want to make this an "us" versus "them" battle, and constantly portray the same people you want to help you as your virtual enemy, then you simply won't get any help. complaining about it all at this point is rather sophomoric.

simply stated, you are offensive. if you want answers to questions, be nice. why do you always assume the worst in everyone? seeing you berate an 18 year old on a public forum for asking a simple question pretty much seals the deal for me. in no way did levi deserve the lashing you gave him. completely uncalled for, and is the exact reason why so few of us participate anymore. up until reading these last two threads, i was reserving judgement on you. but i think your true colors are showing, and it's disappointing.

that said, i'll promise you this. if you ask for help, and do it nice, you'll get the help you need. how do i know this? because there are hundreds of canyoneers who have done exactly that. i'm one of them. and we all started the same you did, we met a few people online or in the canyons. i came in with a humble attitude and eagerness to learn and explore. i didn't barge onto the scene demanding that the community somehow owed me something. and now, today, i can honestly count on one hand the number of them who still post on bogley.

for whatever reason, this forum seems intent on fostering an environment of vitriol and division, and an "us" vs "them" mentality. do you ever stop and wonder why it's crickets around here when you ask for beta? it's because every single one of us who would be willing to provide the advice no longer enjoy using this forum, because the whole environment is always negative, and continually full of drama. there's 4 characters who love to stir chaos up all the time, and it's exhausting.

hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the problem is not with me, or with "us." the problem is YOU. you are mean spirited, offensive, and exude an air of entitlement that is off-putting. it's not that hard of a concept to understand. if you want help from people, ask nice. if you don't want to accept their offers, or their conditions, that's all well and fine. but don't complain about it just because people have conditions that aren't up to your standards. and certainly don't expect us to rush to your aid on a public forum everytime you have an itch about some random canyon you saw on satellite images. there's thousands of well documented canyons to pick from, why do you think the community is obligated to answer your every intrigue?

like iceaxe said so eloquently, grow up, put on your big boy pants, and go out and do some canyons. you seem to think that doing a beta-less exploration is the ultimate anyways, so why is this even a discussion right now? no one will ever fault you for publishing your efforts, if they are, in fact your efforts. in reality, i think most of us will cheer you on, i know i will. i think your passion for all this is awesome, but i am puzzled why you direct it in a direction that you do. people don't fault you for your passion, we fault you for your attitude, offensiveness, and constant mis-characterization of the very people you seem to expect to provide you with answers. i honestly don't know why any of "us" even stick around or comment anymore.

what, exactly, is your endgame with all this?

[Slot Machine]

You should note, Kody, that Bob explicitly declines to participate in any off-the-radar discussions.

True. Kinda. Any involving deal making that is. I've had many quality off-the-radar conversations.


Thus, most people who have off-the-radar beta (the kind he is looking for) have no desire to correspond with him.

FALSE. Sundowners AGAIN tonight?? *sigh* If you were clairvoyant, then you might not be yanking unfactiods out your backside, based mostly on conjecture. Most canyoneers are quite friendly and helpful. In person, you are also rather friendly and helpful. (sorry to give your real identity away)


It is kind of a self-fulfilling prophesy.

Sometimes. My stubbornness has opened more doors than you might imagine, Mr Tom. :gents:

[Slot Machine]

hundreds? i doubt it. it's just not that great of a canyon. and it has a 300 foot rappel in it, so not very many people have the gear to pull it off. but yeah, a few of us have likely done it.

with that said bob, i'm sorry you don't see why this is happening. you are asking for help from people while simultaneously offending them and mischaracterizing them. why, exactly, would any of us want to help you?

why didn't you contact me directly about Micro Death, instead of publicly posting my TR on this site and then suggesting publicly I won't give you any help? I honestly never even saw that question. but that's because my participation on this forum is almost nonexistent now, because of the countless situations exactly like this one.

you, and a few others, are particularly vocal on bogley, always complaining about this idea of the "a team," the elitists, secret handshakes, blood oaths, etc... but the fact remains, if you want to make this an "us" versus "them" battle, and constantly portray the same people you want to help you as your virtual enemy, then you simply won't get any help. complaining about it all at this point is rather sophomoric.

simply stated, you are offensive. if you want answers to questions, be nice. why do you always assume the worst in everyone? seeing you berate an 18 year old on a public forum for asking a simple question pretty much seals the deal for me. in no way did levi deserve the lashing you gave him. completely uncalled for, and is the exact reason why so few of us participate anymore. up until reading these last two threads, i was reserving judgement on you. but i think your true colors are showing, and it's disappointing.

that said, i'll promise you this. if you ask for help, and do it nice, you'll get the help you need. how do i know this? because there are hundreds of canyoneers who have done exactly that. i'm one of them. and we all started the same you did, we met a few people online or in the canyons. i came in with a humble attitude and eagerness to learn and explore. i didn't barge onto the scene demanding that the community somehow owed me something. and now, today, i can honestly count on one hand the number of them who still post on bogley.

for whatever reason, this forum seems intent on fostering an environment of vitriol and division, and an "us" vs "them" mentality. do you ever stop and wonder why it's crickets around here when you ask for beta? it's because every single one of us who would be willing to provide the advice no longer enjoy using this forum, because the whole environment is always negative, and continually full of drama. there's 4 characters who love to stir chaos up all the time, and it's exhausting.

hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the problem is not with me, or with "us." the problem is YOU. you are mean spirited, offensive, and exude an air of entitlement that is off-putting. it's not that hard of a concept to understand. if you want help from people, ask nice. if you don't want to accept their offers, or their conditions, that's all well and fine. but don't complain about it just because people have conditions that aren't up to your standards. and certainly don't expect us to rush to your aid on a public forum everytime you have an itch about some random canyon you saw on satellite images. there's thousands of well documented canyons to pick from, why do you think the community is obligated to answer your every intrigue?

like iceaxe said so eloquently, grow up, put on your big boy pants, and go out and do some canyons. you seem to think that doing a beta-less exploration is the ultimate anyways, so why is this even a discussion right now? no one will ever fault you for publishing your efforts, if they are, in fact your efforts. in reality, i think most of us will cheer you on, i know i will. i think your passion for all this is awesome, but i am puzzled why you direct it in a direction that you do. people don't fault you for your passion, we fault you for your attitude, offensiveness, and constant mis-characterization of the very people you seem to expect to provide you with answers. i honestly don't know why any of "us" even stick around or comment anymore.

what, exactly, is your endgame with all this?

To have as much fun as I can. And to avoid guys like you.

[2065toyota]

2012
36 canyons with 72 different people

thank you all. Hope 2013 is even better

[yetigonecrazy]

you, and a few others, are particularly vocal on bogley, always complaining about this idea of the "a team," the elitists, secret handshakes, blood oaths, etc... but the fact remains, if you want to make this an "us" versus "them" battle, and constantly portray the same people you want to help you as your virtual enemy, then you simply won't get any help. complaining about it all at this point is rather sophomoric.

simply stated, you are offensive. if you want answers to questions, be nice. why do you always assume the worst in everyone? seeing you berate an 18 year old on a public forum for asking a simple question pretty much seals the deal for me. in no way did levi deserve the lashing you gave him. completely uncalled for, and is the exact reason why so few of us participate anymore. up until reading these last two threads, i was reserving judgement on you. but i think your true colors are showing, and it's disappointing.

I don't really know you but Im gonna have to kinda call bullshit on that....

A certain group of people, knowingly and willfully withholding information from others, and only agreeing to release said beta under "contract", "handshake", or "agreement"....sorry Carpey, but its YOU guys that are creating an "US vs THEM"!!! If you dont want to create an us vs them, then share beta and give people credit, because then it puts everybody on the same page! Let's see...a small group of people who have something that others desire, but those people have no interest in sharing unless certain guidelines are met?? Sounds like people behaving like ELITES to me!!

You guys can try to justify your behaviors and try to push the blame for the "us v them" and "elitist" comments onto other people, but any and all of you who participate in such activities has NOBODY to blame but yourself. You've created the "us v them", and you've already painted yourselves as "elitists" with your behavior. now that people are calling you out on it, y'all are now backpedaling and saying "blah blah thats not us blah blah."

I agree that Bob hasnt been the nicest person in the whole Us vs Them debate, but damn do I respect him more than any of you. When someone has a question, Bob answers with any and all info he can- because he wants to share his passion for the sport. Complete opposite of others, who when asked, say nothing, or offer a "contract". Good on Bob for politely declining your requests. At least he gets to keep his self respect in process. personally the thought of having to get down and grovel for beta makes me sick. Id rather not see a canyon than be forced into metaphorically kissing your boot and telling you how awesome you are for finding said canyon and hiding it's existence. I said it before, doing that kind of shit is an ego-booster at best. I'm not going to be forced to have someone walk behind me, making sure I don't do anything rash, like I'm a stupid kid or something. Give me a little more credit than that. I haven't put a mark or a piece of trash on a canyon yet, why would I start now? Why is it always the assumption that if someone isn't part of the Elite Few, then they must a complete doofus with their head in their ass and a strong desire to shit all over a canyon? Who appointed you to be the one that decides who goes in and who doesn't? And if you say "self-appointed", because you were the first to do it, then there you go. A perfect example of elevating yourself above the rest of us, and further creating the elitist us vs them. It's strictly ego, and nothing more. I'm here to enjoy slot canyons, hiking, and other like minded people. I am NOT here to stroke the ego of people who put themselves on a higher plate than everyone else. Oh, you may not think you are doing it....but you are.

Feel free to jump all over me. I'm new, I'm young, and I don't really know any of you so I do make a nice target. You are thinking things like "he doesn't canyoneer, what does he know?!" Or, "he's just some idiot from Colorado". But, I do have experiences with this. I've been arguing for years and years about this same sort of thing in kayaking. Bottom line, there are ALWAYS going to be a few people out there who put themselves on a pedastel above the rest. That's fine. If you want to do it, go for it. That's your perrogative. But if you are going to.....then for god's sake don't try to claim you are like the rest of us. Because your actions speak to another explanation. You were trying to call someone out for doing something, when in fact it was you and your companions who did it to yourselves. J If you're going to be Elitists, just embrace the role already....

[SRG]

It's strictly ego
i saw a quote from a previous thread that I liked...
Those who share beta do so because of ego, those who don't share beta do so because of ego :haha: I think it can sometimes feel like a lose/lose situation.

Regarding the elitism thing, I see your point Yeti. However It seems like the "a team" are down to go do canyons with whoever emails them(noob or not) and I think that's pretty cool. Try calling up Lebron James and seeing if he wants to come shoot hoops with you... He doesn't.

[MSchasch]

Yeti,

Something that you may find if you go out and do canyons enough, is that there are hundreds of people who get out often. You might find 5% post on this site due to the negativity. What people call the "a team" as far as I can tell, is the community that gets out more than 3 times a year. They don't spend a lot of time talking about canyons, they are out doing them. The "underdogs" are those few online who make themselves out to be victims just because they can't get along with others, love internet drama, don't actually do any canyons, or....I don't really know.

Come out and do canyons. Be weary of people who spend most their time on message boards posing as experts.

[yetigonecrazy]

I am not trying to imply they aren't nice people who aren't approachable. Quite the contrary, I know they are all fellow human beings, with families, feelings, desires, etc, just as we all do. I would gladly put my life on the line to offer assistance to any other human being, and that is non-negotiable.

I am merely saying that don't hide what you are doing, or pretend to be something you aren't. If you are going to hold yourself to a higher pedigree than you hold everyone else, and are going to view everyone else with skepticism, rather than optimism, when the topic of beta comes up, then don't hide behind the internet and do nothing. Bottom line, if you're actions can be described by multiple other people as "elitist" or "a-teamer".......then embrace it and call yourself an Elitist. Call yourself the A team. Better to be proud of it than acting like you aren't.

[Iceaxe]

What people call the "a team" as far as I can tell, is the community that gets out more than 3 times a year.

If you believe that then you are wrong. They are called the A-team because that is the name Tom once use to describe a specific group of people he was going canyons with.


Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[Iceaxe]

With regards to negatively..... about the only time this forum goes negative is when a show-don't-tell canyon pops up and suddenly the A-team rushs in. If you need a good example look at this and the Walker thread. Just a wild ass guess, but I'm thinking the threads go negative because the A-team rushes in to point out the error of our ways from the top of their ivory covered castles.

Ymmv

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[CarpeyBiggs]

yeti, i'm sorry you are confusing bogley with a general representation of the canyoneering community. this is a very very small subset, and not indicative of the community at large. you said it yourself, you don't know me...

but you are right, i don't offer beta for free. i ask people to pay for it, by being a nice person, and by being the kind of person i'd like to share a campfire with, and not posting it online. i have a variety of motivations for this. you may consider those motivations noble or not, i won't defend them anymore at this point.

however, let me ask you this, why is there no uproar when someone posts asking for beta, and they are referred to a site that requires one to PAY for it with cash? if your issue is that you don't want to make a deal, then i hope you don't buy beta from elitists who sell it.

if you expect this all to be a level playing field, then let's do it. let's make all beta open source.

i propose we level the playing field. just to start, let's pick 100 canyons to release publicly for free, no strings attached. i'd also be interested to hear ways you personally could contribute to this project? i highly doubt this whole thing will work if the community just expects 5 people to share all their beta publicly, but no one else brings anything else to the effort.

so let's brainstorm. how do we level the playing field?

[Sombeech]

Hey Levi, i hope you found the info you were looking for. Whether or not it gets posted here in public, or somebody contacted you in private to provide some data because of your question posted here, i hope you'll see that bogley is a great place to start looking for that information and very often produces results.

Thanks.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

[Iceaxe]

yeti, i'm sorry you are confusing bogley with a general representation of the canyoneering community. this is a very very small subset, and not indicative of the community at large.

I think you have that a little backwards. Bogley does represent the general canyoneer community, at the very least it represents the largest cross section and largest gathering place of US canyoneers. Using the volume of traffic by unique individuals as a guide everything else is dwarfed by comparison. In fact, it dwarfs all other forms of communications in the canyoneering world using any type of measurements you care to devise. Which is probably why most canyoneers, including Ram and yourself, monitor the forum so closely.

Forums take on the personally of the members, and since bogley has by far the largest membership and largest volume of traffic it does a good job of representing the community, at least better then any other forum currently available.

YMMV


Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[Scott P]

If I'm interested on doing the cool rap in Neon that I just saw a picture of, and there is no beta, then it matters.

But the people whom first did the canyon did have any beta either. As mentioned, sometimes it's a lot of hard work to find a new canyon.

Sometimes the people who want the free beta aren't willing to give anything back in return. When you ask them if they want to go help scout out a canyon or to do it to see if it's any good, they refuse.

Many people have given a lot of beta out, but few are willing to give them any in return.

People like to bash Tom, but I'm willing that he has given out a lot more beta than people give him in return. Same goes for several other people as well.


What people call the "a team" as far as I can tell, is the community that gets out more than 3 times a year.



If you believe that then you are wrong. They are called the A-team because that is the name Tom once use to describe a specific group of people he was going canyons

I haven't seen/participated in every Bogley discussion, but I was under the impression that those who are outside the A team were those whom he perceived to be doing canyons unsafely. Of course I might be completely wrong and Tom could answer for himself.

[Iceaxe]

Once and for all... the term A-team came from a comment Tom made in jest... because he was berating a fellow canyon at the time the term grew some legs of its own.... when others started referring to themselves as the B-team the legend grew.

There is no official A-team that exists outside of Tom's mind. However, an official B-team may or may not exist.

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[shagdeuce]

Zero.

Let's say you walk into an auditorium full of seasoned canyoneers. It's open mic night. You can ask whatever you like. You approach the podium and hold up a photo of a canyon that you found in some magazine. You say to the audience, "This canyon looks cool, I would like to do it. Could somebody in the audience tell me where it is?"

If the audience were dead silent, wouldn't that seem awfully strange?



As someone who relies on beta to do canyons 100% of the time, I appreciate when beta gets communicated publically; however, I can't wrap my mind around the notion that those who have private beta on canyons have an obligation to share it when it is asked for. In fishing, for example, if I ask a fisherman to give me the details on his favorite hole, he may deny the request outright or if we have built a relationship, he may share the details and ask me to keep the details secret. Why is the expectation so different in canyoneering? Why is there a sense that the community at large is entitled to all of the beta that is generated? The best argument that I can think of is that in canyoneering, we aren't talking about a diminishing resource. The quick counterarugment that those withholding the beta will likely argue that (1) prestine canyons and (2) privacy awesome canyons are a diminishing resource.

My personal opinion is that I don't think it is rude when those asking for beta are met with crickets, nor is it rude when those that have shared private beta get upset when those that have benefited from the private beta make it public. Where I think the line is crossed are (1) attacks on those that legitimately generate unknown beta (without the help of private beta) and then decide to post it publically or (2) requests to take beta down from a public forum once it is posted (the consequence here should be taken care of privately - such as withholding beta from that person in the future - rather than attempting to strongarm the mods).

Anyway...my two cents.

[Iceaxe]

^^^THIS^^^

Its nice to see that some understand what the real conflict is.

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[stefan]

I think you have that a little backwards. Bogley does represent the general canyoneer community, at the very least it represents the largest cross section and largest gathering place of US canyoneers. Using the volume of traffic by unique individuals as a guide everything else is dwarfed by comparison. In fact, it dwarfs all other forms of communications in the canyoneering world using any type of measurements you care to devise. Which is probably why most canyoneers, including Ram and yourself, monitor the forum so closely.

Forums take on the personally of the members, and since bogley has by far the largest membership and largest volume of traffic it does a good job of representing the community, at least better then any other forum currently available.



I think it's probably safe to say that the majority of the canyoneering community "at large" does not check out any Internet forums on canyoneering let alone follow them closely. (some may at most only see a forum from a specific google search.) and of those who do follow an Internet forum only a small percentage ever post. communities are defined and interconnected in many more ways than the internet (as you point out) but just because these people aren't connected through the Internet doesn't mean they aren't connected to the "community." just because one doesn't see it doesn't mean it's not there.

i assume you are mostly focused on the subcommunity that is connected through the internet.

as far as forums taking on the personality of the members, it seems more that a forum tends to take on the personality of its members who post and even more so by its most vocal members ... and this is a tiny group compared to the full viewership.

[Iceaxe]

I think it's probably safe to say that the majority of the canyoneering community "at large" does not check out any Internet forums on canyoneering let alone follow them closely.

I disagree.... I meet very few canyoneers out in the field that don't follow the canyon forums casually or occasionally. I agree that the majority don't follow them closely. Canyoneers that don't follow the forums at least casually tend to be found most often in the newbie trade routes.

I do know for fact that if you have an important message you need to get out to canyoneers, say something along the lines of access or safety, if you post it in the various forums the message will filter through the community in a very short time. That alone should demonstrate the powers of the forums.

YMMV

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[Sombeech]

There will be debate concerning the percentage of the canyoneering community that visits an online community for either communication, beta, or a google search brought them there.

It may also be debatable, of the community that utilizes the internet for the sport, the number of return visitors to those online resources.

But of the online domestic canyoneering resources, it is not difficult to conclude that bogley serves the widest and broadest spectrum of canyoneers compared to the other communities. The conclusion isn't solely from the beginners to experts posting here, nor is it from the constant stream of new users joining up, nor is it by bogley threads topping the google keyword searches for the majority of topics. Nor is it from the continuing number of folks asking questions and getting answers, or inviting strangers to join up for a canyon and meeting up, new route ideas, land preservation discussions, securing and keeping route access open, or the lost and found camera/gear success stories here.

Alone, it's not because those who accuse bogley of being some small fringe group, actually browse bogley more than the average guest, but wait and spend their posting time looking for controversial threads like these and pass up the daily trip reports, technical threads and general canyon chit chat. When somebody makes a semi annual appearance only to argue and then in turn blames it on bogley because we foster that environment, I'm curious why those angry people don't post more often since this is their cup of tea.

And it's not solely because of the amount of visitors constantly online, number of threads and posts, and various statistics behind the scenes. It's not because we do not require registration to view these resources either.

And i would hate to say it's just because of the forum software we use too, indicating that if anybody purchases this software then it's an automatic recipe for success.

But it's a combination of these and many other details that have stood the test of time, the evidence is clear that if you want to communicate something to the canyoneering community, bogley is THE PLACE to do it.

But to think that because certain veteran canyoneers (fitting the term of "a very very small subset") choose not to post here does not in ANY way mean that bogley is not the greatest resource online for the canyoneering community. It also means something when those that have other favorite sites, continue to browse bogley.

Nothing wrong with that! I am in NO WAY attacking those that choose only to browse bogley. We welcome you to continue doing so. But we also invite you to participate. If you feel that conversations are usually swayed by the wrong influential people, please join in and provide some balance.

Thanks.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

[spinesnaper]

I should be watching the Super Bowl but instead I am reading this stupid thread. Got to be something wrong.:crazycobasa:

[jman]

Back in the permit window ("camping" all out night type of thing) days, I would ask people where they were from (most from California) and what canyons they were doing (mostly subway, mystery, and pinecreek) and most soid they found out about canyoneering by seeing pics online from canyoneering USA. It seems like for people new to the sport, they would hit Toms website first (which is the best thing I think). But it seems like the veteran canyoneers knew about Bogley, Backcountrypost, and Yahoo Canyons group.

People flock to websites where the activity is. Bogley is active, and very active when there is drama (loved Brian in SLC we don't want no drama vid...ha ha).

[Iceaxe]

I know if you lose a camera or other gear there is a high probability it will be found and returned if you make a post in that regards on bogley. I'd say that tells you really a lot about the number of Canyoneers that monitor bogley to some degree.

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[jman]

Except when I left my ascender (along with my buddies aider) in Imlay right on top of a pothole.

:(

But then again, total price for all the left gear was like $100 so I can see why someone would keep it...

[yetigonecrazy]

yeti, i'm sorry you are confusing bogley with a general representation of the canyoneering community. this is a very very small subset, and not indicative of the community at large. you said it yourself, you don't know me...

but you are right, i don't offer beta for free. i ask people to pay for it, by being a nice person, and by being the kind of person i'd like to share a campfire with, and not posting it online. i have a variety of motivations for this. you may consider those motivations noble or not, i won't defend them anymore at this point.

however, let me ask you this, why is there no uproar when someone posts asking for beta, and they are referred to a site that requires one to PAY for it with cash? if your issue is that you don't want to make a deal, then i hope you don't buy beta from elitists who sell it.

if you expect this all to be a level playing field, then let's do it. let's make all beta open source.

i propose we level the playing field. just to start, let's pick 100 canyons to release publicly for free, no strings attached. i'd also be interested to hear ways you personally could contribute to this project? i highly doubt this whole thing will work if the community just expects 5 people to share all their beta publicly, but no one else brings anything else to the effort.

so let's brainstorm. how do we level the playing field?

First, I'm not confusing the majority of Bogley with a small group; it's actually quite evident really what is going on. There is a large pool of people out there who are willing to share what beta they have, for free, because of a mutual interest in the sport. This is the majority of canyoneers. There is also a much smaller subset of canyoneers who DO NOT give out beta, and keep it to themselves and release it only under certain circumstances. This is a small, subset group of canyoneers. No mistaking that here.

Second, your comparison to pay sites isn't legit, because of a couple reasons. The first is what happens AFTER a canyon is done, or the beta is transferred. If I buy beta from someone, then yes, in a way I am feeing into an elitist attitude. But, when I buy beta from someone, after the money has been exchanged and the beta has been placed in my hands, thats it. No one has to hold my hand and show me a canyon. If I want to make copies of maps and give them to my friends, then I can. If I want to talk about a canyon I bought beta for, I can. Now with a "show-don't-tell" canyon....A) I would NEVER be given a map and told "go find it", the only way in is having your hand held by someone else. B ) I can't tell people about that canyon, nor can I make maps and tell others, because of a silly "oath" or something.... and C ) I can't share beta about that canyon because people will be demanding that I take that information down. So even though I may SEE a canyon with show-don't-tell, I am still under mega restrictions after. Restrictions that do NOT come with buying beta. So I don't see your comparison, sorry. People who sell beta may be "elitist" because they are selling beta, but the intimidation factor and the shroud of secrecy that comes around for the S-D-T crowd is a whole lot worse. Beta sites simply say: we will sell you beta if you have the money. SDT crowds say: we will show you (but not just tell you) BUT ONLY IF YOU ARE WORTHY. What I want to find a canyon on my own, like you did, and I just need a point in the right direction? What if I want to find an obscure canyon but don't want to go with people holding my hand? It takes some balls to set yourself up as the decider of who goes in and who doesn't, considering most canyons are on PUBLIC land. So who is elitist, the person who makes a little money but lets you make your own mind up and treats you with respect? Or someone who doesn't think you can make your own decisions, views you as basically incompetent, and requires someone more "experienced" to escort them? Pretty clear cut division there in my mind....

Your proposal to level the field is admirable, but unfortunately it's a flawed idea. You are absolutely right, there is a select group of people who hold the beta from a large crowd, and that is because that small group are the ones that found most of these. Here's the problem: most of the people that found them, most of the people who do holds lots of beta, are people who enjoy jobs, living situations, and financial flexibility to have the ability to go off and explore slot canyons fifty or more days a year. I'm sure if we all lived in Mt. Carmel Jct, and had a job selling outdoor gear, then all of us would go in these canyons more. I'm sure if more of us had been in Southern Utah in the 70's and 80's that we would all have more canyons under our belts. But we don't. And when folks get denied beta, there is a certain ideal of "you weren't here when we started, so why should we share beta with you?" In a perfect world, it would be great if each person had 100 canyons to bring to party. Bottom line, not many people do, and that is again because of where we are or what we do. Sure, it's easy for you to say "just post some ebta about a canyon you have and I will do the same", but really it's kind of classless because you KNOW the average joe doesn't have the beta you do. Thats why people are asking in the first place! So unless you can go back in time and magically let us all start crawling over SE Utah in the 70's and 80's, then there isn't much we CAN do to level the field. So it's kind of a dickish move to even suggest that in the first place. Of course I don't have a whole portfolio of canyons to bring to the table. I live in Colorado, and I've only been canyoneering for five years. No, I don't have 100 obscure canyons to briing to the table. I doubt there are many that can short of the small, previously identified subset of canyoneers. It's kind of funny how you guys put people like me in situations..."sure, we'll tell you about canyons if you tell us about canyons". Its like trying to get credit when you have no credit. You need canyons to get into more canyons but you cant get into canyons because you dont have any canyons.......See my point?

The last thing I want to talk about is beta.....I'm saying this over and over and frankly, I'm getting sick of saying it: when we (people like Bob, Levi, me, etc) ask for beta on a canyon, why is there a sudden belief amongst people like yourselves that we want a step-by-step, FULL trip report with a hundred pictures? It's actually quite the opposite, and Bob said it perfectly, "I like descents with minimal beta". "MINIMAL". Not a full, play by play guidebook. Just the basics. So before you off talking about "revealing 100 canyons", let's meet in the middle: next time I ask about the Allen Dump slots....don't worry about giving me a full page of beta. Just say "oh, two of em are ok, some raps. one has potholes, bring a 300' rope". DONE. Is that so hard? We're not asking you to give us play by plays for canyons. It would just be nice to ask a question and not be met with crickets. "Oh that canyon? 5 raps, none bigger than 100'. Bring the wetsuit." God, was that so hard??? How about when a picture gets posted of an obscure canyon, and someone asks where. You don't have to lie and make up some bullshoi name like, "oh yeah, that's...Turkey....Masturbater....Canyon"......Likewise, you don't have to give a punch by punch breakdown. "What's that?" "Oh that? That's the MiddleBranch of the Left Fork of ______ Wash". You don't have to publish beta or info.......even having just a name is enough to get people interested. A lot of you from the SDT subset seem to equate us asking for beta as a demand for a full TR, the sooner you guys understand we are looking for WAAAAAAY less than that, the sooner you realize sharing one sentence might not be a bad idea.

I, and as far as I know, no one else, is making you do anything. I don't think you need to reveal 100 canyons or anything. I think the biggest problem most people are frustrated with is being met by crickets when asking questions about canyons, when it's crystal clear there ARE people out there who have PLENTY of information about said canyons, and still nothing. Again, we are NOT expecting full TRs. But it would sure be nice to hear even just one sentence about something, sometime......

[2065toyota]

As I see it, of the people doing canyons there are only a select few who are frustrated with the amount of published beta and the ability to obtain new information. Those that are complaining seem to be digging their own grave.

[CarpeyBiggs]

yeti, this concept is really really really simple, you can justify it all you want. but if you are expecting help from someone on an obscure slot, all you have to do is ask nice. that's it. end of story.

not all answers will be provided on bogley. some will be freely given via email. some will freely give you the longest length rappel (like i did on my own website with micro-death), but not a gps coordinate. some will give you a trailhead but not longest rappel. some will freely give, but under a show-not-tell arrangement. and some will be crickets altogether, for a variety of reasons.

however, it should be clear that no one is under any OBLIGATION to answer any of your questions, at any time, just because you asked. if you ask a question on bogley, and it goes unanswered, stomping and yelling about elitists and blood oaths and shrouds of secrecy only makes it so the very people who are likely to have your answer are going to leave altogether. it makes you look like an entitled chump who thinks everything should be given to him just because he said so, just because he wants it his way.

i'm not really aware of anyone who isn't happy to share. but faulting us for sharing on OUR conditions instead of YOURS? sounds pretty crazy. in no other real world situation am i aware of this type of mentality being successful or even tolerated. do you complain to your employer because you want to work only the hours that are convenient for you? do you complain when you can't figure out the secret fishing hole of people who get to fish more than you? do you complain about the backcountry skier who is actively trying to find new creative lines, and then doesn't publish all his beta on a public forum? do you complain when your buddy is more outgoing than you, and picks up a few girls phone numbers at a party? and then yell and scream because he won't share their phone numbers with you? if someone has what you want, ask them in a way that they would be happy to help.

so, i'll say it again. want help? ask nice. consider your methods. be cool. bring something to the table yourself. and you'll probably get exactly what you want.

[yetigonecrazy]

I never said you, or anyone, were under any sort of obligation (mine or yours) to do diddly squat. You're the one who suggested leveling the playing field, I merely suggested my idea in return, and explained my thought process behind that.

And it's funny you say "ask nice"....been there, tried that.......Why do you think it's an issue to me? Multiple people (not just me....) have asked about things before, in polite manners, and crickets.....Look, I understand that maybe you don't want to post stuff openly on Bogley, I get that, but how hard is it to hit that PM button? Or ask for an email? This is part of my issue- I've tried playing it the way you've described, and it's got me nowhere. I've had one (1) person really sit down and fire up a conversation with me. Out of....a dozen attempts? On canyons that are really in the big picture mundane. You say ask nice, I say answer one of the dozen or so questions I've already asked, nicely.......Otherwise let's agree to disagree and we will go about our separate ways. Because otherwise we are just :deadhorse:

[Iceaxe]

i'm not really aware of anyone who isn't happy to share. but faulting us for sharing on OUR conditions instead of YOURS? sounds pretty crazy.

Some how you seem to miss the entire discussion... but that's nothing new for you... so let me set the record straight... no one really gives a shit about what beta you have or how you care to dispense it. Do with your beta as you wish.

The problem occurs when attempts are made to stifle beta circulating outside of your little circle jerk that you somehow believe is your dominion.

Take this thread for example.... a guy asks for beta on Sad Cow, so why are you even posting if you are not helping?

:cool2:

[CarpeyBiggs]

Some how you seem to miss the entire discussion... but that's nothing new for you... so let me set the record straight... no one really gives a shit about what beta you have or how you care to dispense it. Do with your beta as you wish.

The problem occurs when attempts are made to stifle beta circulating outside of your little circle jerk that you somehow believe is your dominion.

Take this thread for example.... a guy asks for beta on Sad Cow, so why are you even posting if you are not helping?

:cool2:

levi got exactly what he asked for, which is an explanation of the picture he posted and a general area to concentrate his efforts. i connected with him off-site, told him the photo he posted is the key piece of the puzzle, and told him i'd be happy to do that canyon with him, if he is interested.

it was actually slot machine who was giving the bad beta, and treating levi inappropriately.

that said, i am curious what specific instances of stifling beta you are referring to. if someone goes out and finds a canyon on their own, and posts it up, they will likely be applauded, i know i will. doing the research, scouting the canyon, putting together a competent team to safely descend it is a lot work, and gets my respect. pretty sure that's what it's all about. however, looking at a satellite image and then posting demanding beta is not "research" and will likely not get a response from myself. if you want to put in some work to go do it, i'll help you out. but i'm not going to just give away anything just because someone posted a waypoint and said "what's this!"

i'm aware of a few situations where a canyon has been "outed" by an individual for particularly malicious reasons, and the people who gave the beta are then offended, and make attempts to stifle the publishing of it. particularly the case with a few canyons in arizona. but i don't know of anything on bogley where someone has gone out and done a canyon, posted a TR of it, and then got berated for it. i imagine it has happened, but i can't think of any off the top of my head. seems to be a common theme in these threads that it is happening ALL THE TIME.

please link me to a few of these situations you are referencing. i'm happy to address specifics, if you would like to.

now, if your argument is that people lack tact, or are occasionally offensive, i'll agree with you. we all make comments we tend to regret at some point, and sometimes emotions get heated, i've been guilty of that many times, no doubt. i take canyoneering pretty seriously, almost to a fault. it IS what i do. and many of my friends. so we tend to let emotion get the better part of reason, on occasion. particularly when we are constantly mischaracterized publicly on a forum.

but suggesting there is a common theme of bullying someone to take down a canyon they did on their own? sounds like much more of an exception rather than a rule.

[Sombeech]

MISSING: due to the little to no info on this canyon i am calling a bogley wide search for it along with a beta.
INFO : Escalante?


So Levi, to me this seemed like a nice way of asking for beta. I'm curious, is that all it took? Did you get what you were looking for?

I'm not asking that you publish your newfound beta by any means, i just hope that "asking nicely" is all it took, that hopefully somebody contacted you via private message, email, Facebook chat, or secret handshake around the coveted campfire.

If you did get what you were looking for, it's a proven point that bogley is THE PLACE to pose the question, and the answers will come through various channels.

If you didn't get any info and are hearing crickets in private, then this disproves the point made at least 3X in this thread that all you have to do is ask nicely.

I hope you get the info you are looking for, and this is not a request to publish that data, but only to see what the result was.

Thanks and good luck.


Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

[Sombeech]

Oops, i missed Dan's response by minutes. That's great you got some info. Bogley is the place to start.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

[CarpeyBiggs]

And it's funny you say "ask nice"....been there, tried that.......Why do you think it's an issue to me? Multiple people (not just me....) have asked about things before, in polite manners, and crickets.....Look, I understand that maybe you don't want to post stuff openly on Bogley, I get that, but how hard is it to hit that PM button? Or ask for an email? This is part of my issue- I've tried playing it the way you've described, and it's got me nowhere. I've had one (1) person really sit down and fire up a conversation with me. Out of....a dozen attempts? On canyons that are really in the big picture mundane. You say ask nice, I say answer one of the dozen or so questions I've already asked, nicely.......Otherwise let's agree to disagree and we will go about our separate ways. Because otherwise we are just

yeti, i can only speak to myself. but i don't see every thread posted in this forum. if you think i can help you, send me an email. often times someone will contact me via email when there is a thread of particular interest, like this one, and i'll check it out. i've spent almost all my time in the last two years in the Grand Canyon, so that's where my current interest lies. recently, i tend to spend my time on other forums more directly related to that area.

as i said previously, consider your methods. asking for beta in a public forum will often not get a public response, especially if the canyon might be sensitive. it's not my job to find your questions and answer them. if you want my personal opinion, contact me in a way you know i will see it. sorry you get no response sometimes, it'll happen. just the way it is.

to be honest, i have no idea who you are, if we've ever met in person, nor do i honestly recall seeing any of your previous posts for information, or interacting with you in any way. i'm not trying to be rude, just trying to say this place is somewhat anonymous, and my level of interest in places like this ebbs and flows, especially when very few of my friends participate anymore. so thinking a post on bogley should get answered every time, even if you asked nice, is not realistic. consider your methods, and send me a private email on anything, guarantee i'll see it. same probably goes for anyone else who is active in this realm. i'll provide the information that i'm comfortable doing, within reason, and within the commitments that i have on certain beta as well. and if i can't tell you, i'll probably politely tell you why, but i won't do it publicly.

anyways, hope that makes sense.

btw - the reason you haven't heard much about allen dump slots is because there's not much to know. at least, from what i know. which doesn't necessarily mean anything. my intuition tells they have the characteristics of a fault line canyon, with no obvious watercourse carving in them, that generally makes slots interesting and beautiful. however, that said, faults can be beautiful too. and you can't tell much if anything from a satellite image. gotta go see it in person. sounds like a cool project, let me know if you want to go check 'em out. also sounds like a perfect type of thing to report back to the community. that is, if you WANT to.

:2thumbs:

[yetigonecrazy]

....it's also hard to know who's been where and who to ask about what when people are unwilling to talk in the first place. That's why you have to throw a blanket out on the Public Forum and hope for the best.

Anywho, I'm sorry for not being clearer, I wasn't referencing you specifically but speaking generalities to those who stifle beta when there isn't much a need for it.

It all makes sense, I do see your point. You make it sound so easy.....I just really wish it was. But it's not.

Hope you have a great day and stay safe out there.

[Sombeech]

....it's also hard to know who's been where and who to ask about what when people are unwilling to talk in the first place. That's why you have to throw a blanket out on the Public Forum and hope for the best.

This is precisely why bogley is the best place to start asking questions, it's near impossible to know who has information on an unpublished canyon, only educated guesses on who to contact personally. But then how to contact them? Maybe somebody else has even better information from their trip last weekend. Maybe somebody other than the preferred contact knows the route and is even available this weekend to show it to them.

Along the subject of asking for beta, I strongly disagree that asking the question "does anybody have info on this canyon" should be defined as "demanding beta".

If person X asks a group if they have info, and asks follow up questions because of the lack of response, I don't know what is wrong with that. If person X knows that person Y has info and asks him for it, I still wouldn't call that demanding unless he specifically asks "why won't you give it to me". I admit I haven't read every request for beta, but from what I have, Slot Machine has not "demanded" beta from any specific person. He may have asked the question on why a canyon was private, or the thread got into the whole Show Don't Tell debate, but I haven't seen where Bob demanded the beta specifically from somebody he knew had it. From what I saw he was just asking for the info and seeing if anybody could throw him a bone. I think he may have been mocking the SDT side, but to define that as Demanding Beta like a selfish entitled child doesn't really match up.

He also appeared a little short with Levi, and that was somewhat rectified later, but that still has nothing to do with Bob demanding beta. In fact Bob was the first to assist Levi.

[ratagonia]

... let's meet in the middle: next time I ask about the Allen Dump slots....don't worry about giving me a full page of beta. Just say "oh, two of em are ok, some raps. one has potholes, bring a 300' rope".


So Sorry, Crazy Yeti.

When you asked about the Allen Dump slots, I should have said:

I explored the most promising looking one, and it was a dud. 300' rappel to get in. Dirty with loose rock. A few nuisance rappels going downcanyon. Heavy brush at the bottom of the canyon. The best part of the day was the hike back up the buttress to get back to the top.

The reason I did not say that in response to your beta request was because I had already published this obscure, dud of a canyon in a Latest Rave, which you said you had already read. And which seems to be the extent of the community's knowledge of the Allen Dump slots.

As far as I know, no one has gone out and looked at these things, because they are just creases. There is no conspiracy to keep them under the radar. As far as I know, there is nothing to hide. But they are in plain sight, so... if you want... go check them out. Have fun. Report back on how they are, or not, as you wish.

What was your upset again?

Tom (who never-ever shares beta on canyons, except for all the ones I share beta on)

[ratagonia]

He also appeared a little short with Levi, and that was somewhat rectified later, but that still has nothing to do with Bob demanding beta. In fact Bob was the first to assist Levi.

Bob assisted Levi?

Really? In what way?

By picking out some random canyons within 100 miles of the requested canyon, and suggesting they might be the canyon?

I don't really think that is assisting Levi. In fact, given Levi's youth and inexperience, he might have been led to the conclusion that Bob actually knew something, and gone into these slots, the little Baker slots, expecting to find Sad Cow, and got himself in a mess a trouble. Thankfully, Levi was a little smarter than that.

Ram and I have talked with Levi, and are trying to match schedules to get him into Sad Cow.

Tom :moses:

[Sombeech]

Bob assisted Levi?

Really? In what way?


...was the first to assist.

So if he isn't 100% correct he shouldn't even speak? If Levi would have geared up and hit those canyons by Bobs first post alone, that would have been bad news. But the dude was obviously trying to help. Hell, you can't blame him for being under the impression that nobody else was communicating with Levi in private. He at least helped build the conversation on where this canyon could be. True it seemed to get a little out of hand but Bob was right there up front trying to offer some assistance, even if he didn't zero in on the canyon.

I would make a friendly suggestion that if anybody asks a question online and isn't getting a public answer, but in reality is getting plenty of help sideband, to make a quick post saying "PM sent". This would prevent a lot of people from thinking the poor dude just isn't getting any help and that the people who have the beta are just a bunch of dicks. LOL. ...which was not the case at all and it's great that you guys could help him out. Although I'm not a canyoneer and hence pretty neutral on the SDT issue, it would help the SDT side build some friendly PR

:D

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

[levifackrell]

So Levi, to me this seemed like a nice way of asking for beta. I'm curious, is that all it took? Did you get what you were looking for?


first off thanks for making my forum one of the most popular forums. who would have thought that just asking nice could work ( along with getting yelled at by slot machine ) and would get you a general location of the canyon. but that is very little help seeing that i don't have experience in the back country of Utah and no i will not share the general location ( show don't tell )

Bob assisted Levi?

Really? In what way?

By picking out some random canyons within 100 miles of the requested canyon, and suggesting they might be the canyon?

I don't really think that is assisting Levi. In fact, given Levi's youth and inexperience, he might have been led to the conclusion that Bob actually knew something, and gone into these slots, the little Baker slots, expecting to find Sad Cow, and got himself in a mess a trouble. Thankfully, Levi was a little smarter than that.

Ram and I have talked with Levi, and are trying to match schedules to get him into Sad Cow.

Tom :moses:

thanks tom for the invite i'm excited for the trip. my inner engineer is kicking in and i'm starting to notice small details with pictures. i'm starting to meet people telling me to join ACA. maybe one day ill become a pro like you tom...

[ratagonia]

So if he isn't 100% correct he shouldn't even speak?



Yes, 0% is not the same as 100%.

Perhaps my standards of what constitutes beta are rather high. Dan was just complaining about that (privately).

Tom

[ratagonia]

I would make a friendly suggestion that if anybody asks a question online and isn't getting a public answer, but in reality is getting plenty of help sideband, to make a quick post saying "PM sent". This would prevent a lot of people from thinking the poor dude just isn't getting any help and that the people who have the beta are just a bunch of dicks. LOL. ...which was not the case at all and it's great that you guys could help him out.



It's good to see that the standard has evolved.

It used to be that I was a dick if I did not post publicly every canyon I did immediately. I've tried to adapt to this standard:

http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/the-stinger-canyoneering-descent-in-the-heart-of-zion/
http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/eyedropper-canyon-a-first-descent-in-the-san-rafael-swell-sept-2012/
http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/exciting-new-canyon-in-zion-first-descent/

but, quite frankly it is a very high standard! I know it often appears otherwise, but I do have a job, and already a huge list of things not getting done.

Now it appears I'm only a dick if when someone asks a question about a canyon, I DON'T immediately contact them sideband, rearrange my schedule and, not knowing anything about them, their skills or their reliability, take them on a trip.

Good to know. I look forward to the further evolution of the 'dick' standard.

Tom :moses:

[Sombeech]

Dan was just complaining about that (privately).


ROFL

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

[Deathcricket]

ROFL

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

Too be a fly on the wall in the secret A-team headquarters. That's gotta be worth at least a nickel. :haha:

[spinesnaper]

Too be a fly on the wall in the secret A-team headquarters. That's gotta be worth at least a nickel. :haha:


Would that be a limestone bat cave off some undisclosed canyon near Mt. Carmel Utah? :haha:

[ratagonia]

Would that be a limestone bat cave off some undisclosed canyon near Mt. Carmel Utah?:haha::haha:

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhh. It's SECRET!

:moses:

[Iceaxe]

I would like to take this opportunity to personally thank the leaders of the show-don't-tell crew for providing me 10 plus years of new canyons to target and helping sell countless climb-utah memberships. I probably get more publicity from your canyons than the ones I dig up on my own, after all, everyone loves learning a secret.

Best I can tell it has been over ten years since we parted ways and I walked away from the secret decoder rings. I still remember your parting words "you will never receive beta on anther canyon"... if only it had been true, but your insistence on grasping desperately to a fatality flawed system and your inability to adapt dooms you to eventual failure. Time is always on my side. Thanks for teaching me patients, which is a valuable asset I severely lacked in my youth.

Best of all I have received numerous hours of personal entertainment tracking down YOUR slots and the enjoyment I receive from betaing them is priceless. Childish and petty perhaps, but you play your games and I play mine, it's just the games we play.

I know we are getting a little long in the tooth, but here is to anther fabulous 10 years of cat and mouse...

Anyhoo... sorry for rambling... Sad Cow, coming to your favorite website in the near future... enjoy and thanks again.

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[stefan]

But, when I buy beta from someone, after the money has been exchanged and the beta has been placed in my hands, thats it. If I want to make copies of maps and give them to my friends, then I can. If I want to talk about a canyon I bought beta for, I can. Now with a "show-don't-tell" canyon....A) I would NEVER be given a map and told "go find it", the only way in is having your hand held by someone else. B ) I can't tell people about that canyon, nor can I make maps and tell others, because of a silly "oath" or something.... and C ) I can't share beta about that canyon because people will be demanding that I take that information down. So even though I may SEE a canyon with show-don't-tell, I am still under mega restrictions after. Restrictions that do NOT come with buying beta. So I don't see your comparison, sorry. People who sell beta may be "elitist" because they are selling beta, but the intimidation factor and the shroud of secrecy that comes around for the S-D-T crowd is a whole lot worse. Beta sites simply say: we will sell you beta if you have the money.

interesting comparison, yeti, but not all beta sellers would necessarily allow you to post their beta in a webforum. they may even go as far as having it removed from the webforum.

[yetigonecrazy]

interesting comparison, yeti, but not all beta sellers would necessarily allow you to post their beta in a webforum. they may even go as far as having it removed from the webforum.

Agreed, fully. But that is why I only buy beta from people who WONT do that. Easy enough.

[CarpeyBiggs]

Agreed, fully. But that is why I only buy beta from people who WONT do that. Easy enough.

except it happens. on this very forum. moderators have redirected links to commercial beta.

[CarpeyBiggs]

I would like to take this opportunity to personally thank the leaders of the show-don't-tell crew for providing me 10 plus years of new canyons to target and helping sell countless climb-utah memberships. I probably get more publicity from your canyons than the ones I dig up on my own, after all, everyone loves learning a secret.

Best I can tell it has been over ten years since we parted ways and I walked away from the secret decoder rings. I still remember your parting words "you will never receive beta on anther canyon"... if only it had been true, but your insistence on grasping desperately to a fatality flawed system and your inability to adapt dooms you to eventual failure. Time is always on my side. Thanks for teaching me patients, which is a valuable asset I severely lacked in my youth.

Best of all I have received numerous hours of personal entertainment tracking down YOUR slots and the enjoyment I receive from betaing them is priceless. Childish and petty perhaps, but you play your games and I play mine, it's just the games we play.

I know we are getting a little long in the tooth, but here is to anther fabulous 10 years of cat and mouse...

Anyhoo... sorry for rambling... Sad Cow, coming to your favorite website in the near future... enjoy and thanks again.

thank you shane, for now making it all abundantly clear.

everyone in this community has treated you as a friend. even in the last 10 years, many canyons have been shared with you, i've been on trips with your friends who are there getting beta FOR you. which is fine, we get it, and many of us don't even have an issue with it, until you use it all to maliciously portray as you do on this forum. many canyons have been given to you under the show don't tell agreement, and you have shown you only are willing to keep that commitment, until it results in cash in your pocket.

but now that you've spelled out exactly what your goals and interests are, i encourage everyone to consider what is really going on here, and why you continue to perpetuate this drama. it results in cash in your pocket, and a petty war for your selfish reasons. any concept of "for the community" is absurd, given this reply. it's all about you.

at least you've finally admitted it.

[rockgremlin]

:roflol:Shakespeare couldn't have drafted a finer comedy than you guys and your little mud-slinging war.

[Deathcricket]

I would like to take this opportunity to personally thank the leaders of the show-don't-tell crew for providing me 10 plus years of new canyons to target and helping sell countless climb-utah memberships. I probably get more publicity from your canyons than the ones I dig up on my own, after all, everyone loves learning a secret.

Best I can tell it has been over ten years since we parted ways and I walked away from the secret decoder rings. I still remember your parting words "you will never receive beta on anther canyon"... if only it had been true, but your insistence on grasping desperately to a fatality flawed system and your inability to adapt dooms you to eventual failure. Time is always on my side. Thanks for teaching me patients, which is a valuable asset I severely lacked in my youth.

Best of all I have received numerous hours of personal entertainment tracking down YOUR slots and the enjoyment I receive from betaing them is priceless. Childish and petty perhaps, but you play your games and I play mine, it's just the games we play.

I know we are getting a little long in the tooth, but here is to anther fabulous 10 years of cat and mouse...

Anyhoo... sorry for rambling... Sad Cow, coming to your favorite website in the near future... enjoy and thanks again.

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3


I should double check my numbers before posting, but that's never stopped me before. :lol8:

I believe Z-crew is the proud supporter of at least 3 accounts. Keep on rocking buddy. Course we use them for commercial routes in Zion, nothing spicy, but still....

[yetigonecrazy]

but now that you've spelled out exactly what your goals and interests are, i encourage everyone to consider what is really going on here, and why you continue to perpetuate this drama. it results in cash in your pocket, and a petty war for your selfish reasons. any concept of "for the community" is absurd, given this reply. it's all about you.

at least you've finally admitted it.

So stifling/withholding/backdoor-pressuring-mods-to-remove-posts-that-have-beta is "for the community"?

Seems to me keeping people out of public canyons because you don't think most people can match up to the standards you have seems rather selfish in itself.

I'd much rather give someone like Shane my money than be forced to go through initiation rites. At least I keep my dignity when I do it :)

[2065toyota]

I am a little curious as too how often Mods get requests to remove beta.

Are any of the Mods ok to answer that? As to what percentage of trips reports that get posted, are asked to be removed?

I did a few months ago, and they obliged, but I didn't receive their blessing on my choice. I don't know of any other instances. There was a little backlash over the issue, and I will take full responsibility for it. I was not asked to remove it by anyone, it was entirely my call. In hindsight, I probably made the wrong choice because it would have just rolled to second page into oblivion, but oh well.

[Brian in SLC]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HlJ_r4xOFg

[Iceaxe]

at least you've finally admitted it.

I've never denied it or stated otherwise.... but since you're not exactly the brightest crayon in the box I figured I'd spell it out for ya.

:popcorn:

[Brian in SLC]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZfyrIPw3wY

[MSchasch]

I've never denied it or stated otherwise.... but since you're not exactly the brightest crayon in the box I figured I'd spell it out for ya.

:popcorn:

Have fun being a snake!

Its easy to see why you have 0 friends, and never dare show your face at any canyon function you don't put on :lol8:

[Iceaxe]

I am a little curious as too how often Mods get requests to remove beta


It averages out to about once a month....

A secondary, and far more common problem, is when someone new to Bogley makes a "secert" canyon post the A-team will pressure/bully the new guy into removing or altering their orginal post. We are experimenting with a couple methods of countering the problem.


63261

[Brian in SLC]

Its easy to see why you have 0 friends, and never dare show your face at any canyon function you don't put on :lol8:

Yep, can't see his face...buried in the ham it appears. That just ain't kosher...

63262

[Iceaxe]

:lol8: :lol8: :lol8:

I have a hot young stripper wife, why would I want to hang out and sleep in the dirt with a bunch of guys that haven't showered in a week?

:ne_nau:

[MSchasch]

Damn, if that pic from Jane's would have been Shane eating a piece of beef, this thread would almost be back on topic....

[rockgremlin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HlJ_r4xOFg


F***ING AWESOME POST MAN!! I'm on my 5th time listening to it. I can't stop....kinda like that girl at the end. :lol8:

[Iceaxe]

F***ING AWESOME POST MAN!! I'm on my 5th time listening to it. I can't stop....kinda like that girl at the end. :lol8:

x2

:2thumbs:

[shaggy125]

Hey look, I've come out of my retirement from internet forums! Sorry to not reply to your private message levifackrell, I retired from forums a while ago and never check this. I only came today because a few people told me my blog was causing controversy on Bogely. I have absolutely no chance of keeping up with you guys, you post SO MUCH! And honestly I didn't enjoy disliking people who are most likely very nice when they are not behind a keyboard. ;) I was going to send this as a private message to levifackrell but decided to just post it for the world to see.

First off Levi (I assume that's your name), I need to apologize for even posting those photos. I can see the argument against going on the internet and bragging with photos of canyons I'm not willing to give beta for. I started my blog never really intending for a bunch of internet canyoneers to get on and drool over my photos. I started it mostly with the intent of having photos available online so I could show them to family and friends wherever I had internet. I would upload them to some super crappy photo sharing service that has since gone out of business, then I would embed them on the blog. The blog was to put the photos in a nice scroll-able page that I could easily slide through rather than get horrendous popups and ads on the other site. Later, because of prodding by Tom, I re-did all the posts that had been deleted when the photo site disappeared and most of my early posts were re-incarnated in a sense (many just have links to the photos on Picasa since I didn't want to take the time to embed them all again).

When I started the blog I was only doing canyons with beta, then eventually met much more experienced guys who became my good friends, and who taught me countless things about movement in the canyon, efficiency, anchoring, etc... These guys molded me into the canyoneer I am now, because of them I was trying downclimbs I never thought possible and eventually even got into some "first," descents and high stemming canyons. Yes there were canyons they asked me to not spray beta about on the internet but they told me photos were fine, as I still wanted to keep up the blog with my adventures, I thought this was harmless. After the advent of locked albums on Picasa, etc... maybe I should have kept photos of canyons I was unwilling to give beta on in them? I certainly should not have posted a photo of Sad Cow Disease on the best canyon photos forum, and I'm sorry for doing so, I can see the argument that I'm being a douche-bag and hanging a doughnut in front of your face then adding conditions to eating it. Looking from some of your guy's point of view I can see how it would come across like that.

Unfortunately, I can't give beta because the people who showed me the canyon asked that I not. They are my good friends and regardless of how you or I feel about sharing beta, I agreed not to. I can take you there... but I rarely do canyons anymore as my passion has become climbing and I spend most of my free time doing that. I do canyons maybe once or twice a year, and I still absolutely love them, but Sad Cow is very little bang for the buck and if I'm only doing a few canyons a year, I would most likely not repeat that one. However it seems Tom has offered a trip and all I can say is those guys give good trips. :)

To my credit however, I did freely give beta on Trachyotomy when I scouted and descended it, but that's really the only canyon I ever put all the leg work into (Ryan Cornea and Mike Kelsey had done it before us, but we missed all evidence of their descent) and felt I could do what I wanted with the beta. I can see arguments for both sides, but honestly I don't like the idea of EVERY canyon having beta, I think canyoneers should have the option to do the legwork and find new canyons, even really good ones. It really is a rewarding process. Why scouting duds can actually be fun and makes finding that gem all the more rewarding. I was with Dave P. when he found, and we descended Woody. He was STOKED out of his mind to find a good canyon finally! When I first started canyons I wanted beta on everything, and felt left out when people were doing classics that I had no access to beta for, as I started breaking into being comfortable with pulling the trigger on something I was terrified to try, I was glad there was still stuff out there to find, and adventure to be had.

I will now go back into retirement while you guys bicker about my response. ;)

Eric (Shaggy)

[Iceaxe]

I can see the argument that I'm being a douche-bag and hanging a doughnut in front of your face then adding conditions to eating it.

Thanks Shaggy :2thumbs:

That was a well written and well thought out response. I really liked the donut analogy.

:popcorn:

[ratagonia]

Hey look, I've come out of my retirement from internet forums! Sorry to not reply to your private message levifackrell, I retired from forums a while ago and never check this. I only came today because a few people told me my blog was causing controversy on Bogely. I have absolutely no chance of keeping up with you guys, you post SO MUCH! And honestly I didn't enjoy disliking people who are most likely very nice when they are not behind a keyboard. ;) I was going to send this as a private message to levifackrell but decided to just post it for the world to see.

...

Eric (Shaggy)

Thank you for the post, Eric. Glad you are having great fun climbing... we miss you. Tom :moses:

[yetigonecrazy]

Thanks so much for your input Shaggy. It was nice of you to come back and see us to help clear some things up. We appreciate it!


I can see the argument against going on the internet and bragging with photos of canyons I'm not willing to give beta for.

I wish more people would see this.

[rockgremlin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HlJ_r4xOFg


Thanks Brian, this has been on extended replay ever since Tuesday when it was posted. Never gets old.


"Where is it?"
"Riiiiiight there..."
"Where is it?"
"My @**.....":knary:



To make this post remotely relevant, those fellas better use protection or they might get sad cow disease. I've heard it's pretty bad...

[2065toyota]

Thanks so much for your input Shaggy. It was nice of you to come back and see us to help clear some things up. We appreciate it!



I wish more people would see this.

I guess it's just a lot about attitude. I've never been offended one time by anybody posting cool pictures and taking about amazing adventures with no info of their exact location. Maybe a little thicker skin is needed by some people

Thanks @Shaggy for your cool pictures, I would choose that you still post them, and anybody that was to also continue to do so ( RAM ) . To me, this spurs the taste for adventure, not the poor me I feel so left out.

[Iceaxe]

Thanks @Shaggy for your cool pictures, I would choose that you still post them, and anybody that was to also continue to do so ( RAM ) . To me, this spurs the taste for adventure, not the poor me I feel so left out.

x2

I'm a huge fan of these type pictures, it spurs me to uncover the adventure and get my lazy ass off the couch.



Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[Slot Machine]

Has nobody figured this out yet? Well, I guess it's good to see everyone staying busy flinging poo at each other. :lol8:

Now, back on topic! Take a look at the last 4 photos (http://picasaweb.google.com/103393475999385634178/SadCowDisease?feat=embedwebsite&gsessionid=joQ2BVDeSRW_Dv1uAFUb1A#) of Shaggy's album.

Then look at this very nice Little Death Hollow trip report.

http://back countrypost.com/forum/index.php?threads/little-death-hollow-wolverine-loop.698/ (because Bogley doesn't play well with that site, you must remove the space after the word 'back' when you paste the link in your browser)

Take a close look at photos #14 and #15, the 'frozen creek bed' and 'fattest cottonwood tree', and then compare them to Shaggy's.

There happen to be dead cows in some of these photos, but the dead cows are from different years (2010 vs 2012). I'm not claiming they are the same cows, but knowing this is where cows routinely take 'the easy way out' is slightly helpful. :haha:

So, I'm changing my GUESS. This is only a guess (not beta), just like I said about the other guess. If SCD isn't here, then I think it is in the immediate neighborhood.

37

[levifackrell]

I haven't been following my forum because I find it filled with way to much info to keep up on. I've joined a new canyon site ( canyon collective ) that looks like it could be very successful as long as people don't fight over betas and stupid stuff like sad cow that ruins great fourm sites. Everyone that is seriouse about this forum should read shaggys post on page 6 so they understand what is happening.
To respect Tom and shaggy I will quit trying to find this canyon to follow with show don't tell.

[Iceaxe]

as long as people don't fight over betas

As a long time beta provider, forum participant and forum moderator I can tell you the fight over beta will never end. There is always someone that is upset when "their" canyon is outed. The good news is that for every person upset and whining there are 50 saying thank you and enjoying the slots.

There will always be a disagreement over the best method of gathering and sharing beta.... guide book, website, forum, show don't tell, free, purchase, trade, friends, private message, secret handshake, networking, facebook, do-it-yourself.... there is really no correct answer.

The one thing I can promise you about beta is the more you put into it the more you will get out of it. Don't just be a taker, learn to share or give something back in the method that works best for you.

My advise to all canyoneers if they want to avoid the fight over beta is investigate the different methods, decides what combination works best for you and then just stick to your choice and ignore all the "noise".


:soapbox: