Man shopping with rifle at Utah JCPenney

[Iceaxe]

[B]Photos of man shopping with rifle at Utah JCPenney go viral
Open Carry

[Byron]

If I saw that guy in a store, or anywhere public for that matter, I'd certainly go up to him and ask "what's up?". Obviously, he'd tell me the purpose of what he's doing and I shake his hand and say "Right on, brother!"

Good for him...ballsy move. Admittedly, it's not something you see everyday (unless you live in say...Wyoming) but I think he did a fantastic job of making an important point.:2thumbs:

[accadacca]

"Rambo" :lol8:

http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/537137_10151379382238676_312037865_n.jpg?dl=1

[Iceaxe]

I agree it was a bold move. If I saw him I'd certainly shake his hand and tell him I appreciate what he was doing.


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[BruteForce]

While it's not illegal, I think it's stupid and attention grabbing to tote an AR around in public. I'd tell the guy he's a knuckle head.

[Garbanzo]

Of all the times I've seen drug lords and cartel members at JC Penney, where the hell was this guy? Maybe I saw drug stores and cartoon members. .. hmmm. Either way. Good job buddy! Keep up the good work. Dork.

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[Sandstone Addiction]

Just because something is legal doesn't make it right.

I sincerely doubt making a statement like this will help our cause in any way whatsoever. :facepalm1:

[oldno7]

I agree with Dave and Brute, here. While it's certainly legal, it comes off extreme.

In the court of public opinion, this is damaging right now and completely un necessary.

Guaranteed, this pic goes viral and folks around the country who are fence sitters, will say this is scary, how can he do that? If thats legal we need to change the laws, etc. etc.

Worse yet--theres dozens of Congressman on the same fence...

Poor timing--Poor taste

[Sombeech]

Definitely legal, but the guy is just BEGGING for attention.

And this doesn't mean police officers won't be curious about why he feels the need to carry, to which of course he'll respond the usual 2nd ammendment rights stuff, and if the dude slips up at all and loses his cool, that's when he'll give the officers the perfect excuse to take him away in handcuffs.

[rockgremlin]

Just because something is legal doesn't make it right.


The term "right" is very subjective. Both Atheists and Jews believe they are "right." Has a broad range of definitions...

[Iceaxe]

FWIW: a guy did this at the Provo mall last year and was arrested for causing a public disturbance.

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[oldno7]

So heres another method that was used to express an individuals RIGHT to own and carry a firearm.

In my mind, this was a dramatically superior result.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxHnCei4wzg

Some of the most important points are made at the end.

Let me know which method of expression is more effective and which "might" lead to understanding by those who might be ignorant.

[Iceaxe]

I noticed the guy that must needed to hear that left the room.....

As for type of expression I thought they were both effective. The difference was the video was a particular situation that you can't recreate on demand while open carry is.

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[Sombeech]

So heres another method that was used to express an individuals RIGHT to own and carry a firearm.

In my mind, this was a dramatically superior result.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxHnCei4wzg

Some of the most important points are made at the end.

Let me know which method of expression is more effective and which "might" lead to understanding by those who might be ignorant.

Only one person showing a little temper flare up in that video, and it's the douche at 3:43 who later makes his pathetic exit from the room when his even more pathetic motion doesn't pass.

[oldno7]

I noticed the guy that must needed to hear that left the room.....

As for type of expression I thought they were both effective. The difference was the video was a particular situation that you can't recreate on demand while open carry is.

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

o.k. fair enough, I'll reword my arguement.

Both methods are incredibly effective at stimulating the base, which does a better job of informing the ignorant?

[accadacca]

Very interesting video! :popcorn:

[Sombeech]

I just watched the video again.

The citizen is merely trying to push proper education and precaution training on guns. The only thing that jackass takes away from it is that the Afghanistan US Veteran might be carrying at the time???

What a politically motivated jackass.

And to note that it was NOT the time for council members to ask questions, but to only hear the voices and opinions from the people. What an idiot trying to make his point in front of everybody, and failing so hard.

[Iceaxe]

Both methods are incredibly effective at stimulating the base, which does a better job of informing the ignorant?

Familiarity breads comfort... honestly a lot of the anti gun nuts I know are afraid of firearms mostly because they have never been around them except for movies.

It would be in interesting to see what would happen if large numbers open carried for a few months. My bet is gun control would lose more support and as a byproduct you would see a measurable drop in crime... but that is just a guess....


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[chromehead58]

Let me say up front, I own guns and will always own guns, but this guy is just stupid and the main reason I would argue that this is a really bad idea. So all of you that walk up to him and ask whats up, if he is a bad guy you are dead, if he is a good guy, he would not go out in public like this. I work in a job where I deal with bad guys every day of my life, you know how I know that are bad guys, they look like this guy...this type of arrogance puts us all at risk now we have to ask ourselves is that a bad guy carrying all of those guns or a good guy, not a good place for any of us to be....Come on lets all use some common sense.

[Iceaxe]

I work in a job where I deal with bad guys every day of my life, you know how I know that are bad guys, they look like this guy....


If he is a bad guy then we should shot him. :lol8:

[2065toyota]

He looks like a bad guy. Wow. Looks like about every soldier dressed in civilian clothes

[Iceaxe]

But the real question we should be asking ourselves about the guy in the Ogden Mall.... why is it that his assault rifle didn't suddenly start massacring people?

[accadacca]

Open carry wont be around long with clowns like this traipsing around.

[Iceaxe]

Open carry wont be around long with clowns like this traipsing around.

I disagree.... this is from a KSL poll taken today.

62868

People may think it lacks a little in the commonsense department, but they don't want to lose that right.

:popcorn:

[accadacca]

Doing what is legal and using good judgement are two different things.

[KapitanSparrow]

Over the top. Just because prostitution is legal in Nevada, it does not mean I should take them to JCPenney. It's just bad judgement on the guys part. Also, not recommended in New York. True blue NYPD rounds will start flying your way in less than 30 seconds.

[Brian in SLC]

Foolish behavior, methinks.

Legal to walk around with a big, glitzy purse and expensive jewelry on too. Sooner or later, you'll attract the wrong kind of attention.

Two desperate meth addicts follow that guy out to his car and he won't own that flashy, expensive firearm for long. Who's got his back? Oh, the rifle is ON his back. Unless he's got that Glock in his hand, he'll lose that too.

A fool and his guns are soon parted...and it doesn't pay to advertise.

[Garbanzo]

I disagree.... this is from a KSL poll taken today.

62868

Not a very big poll. No pun intended. :D




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[oldno7]

..and it doesn't pay to advertise.

I think this. ^^^

Never show your hand, unless someone is willing to pay for it.

Theres a lot of merit in the gubernmint and citizens not knowing who has what.

[Iceaxe]

Oh, the rifle is ON his back. Unless he's got that Glock in his hand, he'll lose that too.

FWIW he was also carrying a LOADED semi auto pistol....

Funny how the news only talked about the unloaded AR and very few even mentioned the pistol.... I guess the pistol didn't look as scary on the evening news...




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[Bootboy]

I think it's fine that he asserted his rights and I appreciate the statement he made by his actions. However, slinging an AR in public is not something to make a habit of. More than once would be doing it in bad taste. It would be akin to someone waving a poster with hate speech or vulgarity citing "freedom of speech". Our constitutional rights should be exercised in self control and prudence. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. Failing to use self control and moderation is how our lives end up getting micro managed.

"America! America! God mend thine every flaw. Confirm thy soul in self control, thy liberty in law."

[Sandstone Addiction]

Just to clarify...I cherish our right to open carry and would fight anyone that tried to take that away.

My question is this...with our wonderful shall issue concealed carry laws, why would anyone want to open carry in a crowded metro area? Is there really a legitimate reason that I don't understand?

[Iceaxe]

Is there really a legitimate reason that I don't understand?

A political statement isn't a legitimate reason?

Or do you mean a reason like in LA after the Rodney King roits when Korean store owners stood in front of their businesses armed with firearms to protect their lively hood from looters because the police not available?


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[Brian in SLC]

A political statement isn't a legitimate reason?

For who? In Utah, he's preachin' to the choir. No one bothered to call 911 (not that eyebrows weren't raised).

The politics of this might work against whatever message he thought he was sending. Would a sane, reasonable person strap an assault rifle to their back and go to the mall? Of course not. More damage than good is going to come out of that action, with regard to "gun control" methinks.


Or do you mean a reason like in LA after the Rodney King roits when Korean store owners stood in front of their businesses armed with firearms to protect their lively hood from looters because the police not available?

They were mostly on the roofs...ha ha. And, had the Korean shop owner not shot that black girl in the back for shoplifting...(although, she was gettin' beat up by a purse or some such). Grim stuff.

Yeah, those are pretty different situations. Prior to that, ever see a Korean shop owner with a gun? Did they just sport them, walking around? Nope.

Ahh...I spent a ton of time down there...got to hear those gunshots and see the fires in person. Wild stuff. Sad. I miss going for Asian food for lunch...ha ha. Mostly sushi in Gardena.

Crazy stuff.

[Iceaxe]

Ahh...I spent a ton of time down there...got to hear those gunshots and see the fires in person. Wild stuff. Sad.

Ditto... we were scuba diving off Catalina when the riot started. We had to come back through Long Beach when things were still in the crapper.


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[Iceaxe]

Is attention whore a legitimate reason?

62880

[Sandstone Addiction]

I do recall a time I open carried in a city...I was elk hunting on the LaSals and my motorcycle was getting low on fuel, so I zipped down to Maverik in Moab with my 264 Win Mag over my shoulder and filled up. Don't recall anyone giving me a second glance, but then again, I wasn't trying to get any attention.

[Mooseman70]

I would've asked him how much he wanted for his PMAG! :haha:

[oldno7]

And sometimes ones arrogant actions result in law changes:angryfire:

Make no mistake, there is nothing this guy did that was even remotely patriotic or noble

http://www.kutv.com/news/top-stories/stories/vid_3550.shtml

[Iceaxe]

This bill isn't from the guy at Penny's, it has been in the works for a while. in fact my understanding is it will strengthen the ability to carry in the open by eliminating the ability of police to cite you for disorderly conduct.

But I haven't read the bill. I just knew it was coming after several were cited.

I think the bill is needed to stop crap like happened after Katrina and Rodney King. YMMV.

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[oldno7]

Still looking for the actual bill--here is it's intent:

Utah is an open carry state, meaning you can carry a gun in public for all to see. But that law also carries hefty responsibility. If you cross the line your legal right could turn into disorderly conduct.

There have been some inconsistencies when it comes to filing charges against people carrying guns in public. Oftentimes police are hesitant to take action because they don't want to infringe on someone's civil rights.

State Representative Paul Ray is sponsoring House Bill 268 in an attempt to clarify when carrying a gun becomes disorderly conduct.

[oldno7]

If this bill goes to the floor, is there any chance at all someone will mention the jc penney incident?

[Iceaxe]

If it goes to the floor they should mention the Penny's incident as that is exactly what the bill is designed to protect.

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[oldno7]

Ice
I'll even make a friendly wager with ya.
If the bill is scheduled to be heard, you and I go to the Capitol, we each put a $100 bill on the rail.
If within the first 15 minutes of this debate, jc penney gun toter is mentioned in a negative light, I pick up.
If there is no mention of jcpgt, you pick up.
Winner buys the afternoons beers
Interested?

[Iceaxe]

Why would I care if the comments were positive or negative? So long as the comments are accurate and factual I'm good with that. I think it's good our representatives know exactly what they are protecting or eliminating and why.



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[oldno7]

Why would I care if the comments were positive or negative? So long as the comments are accurate and factual I'm good with that. I think it's good our representatives know exactly what they are protecting or eliminating and why.



Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

Your right, legislation is based upon accuracy and facts.
Peoples opinions, regardless of basis are never figured in.
I stand corrected.

p.s.--have you heard lately of the legislation these guys are trying to pass based on their accuracy and facts?

Something about "assault rifles" something or another:mrgreen:

[Sandstone Addiction]

H.B. 268 1
DISORDERLY CONDUCT AMENDMENTS
2 2013 GENERAL SESSION
3 STATE OF UTAH
4 Chief Sponsor: Paul Ray
5 Senate Sponsor: ____________
6
7 LONG TITLE
8 General Description:
9 This bill includes displaying a dangerous weapon under certain circumstances in the
10 definition of disorderly conduct.
11 Highlighted Provisions:
12 This bill:
13 . provides that displaying a dangerous weapon in public under certain circumstances
14 may be disorderly conduct; and
15 . confirms that merely displaying a dangerous weapon in public without other
16 behavior is not disorderly conduct.
17 Money Appropriated in this Bill:
18 None
19 Other Special Clauses:
20 None
21 Utah Code Sections Affected:
22 AMENDS:
23 76-9-102, as last amended by Laws of Utah 1999, Chapter 20
24
25 Be it enacted by the Legislature of the state of Utah:
26 Section 1. Section 76-9-102 is amended to read:
27 76-9-102. Disorderly conduct.
28 (1) A person is guilty of disorderly conduct if:
29 (a) [he] the person refuses to comply with the lawful order of [the police] a law
30 enforcement officer to move from a public place, or knowingly creates a hazardous or
31 physically offensive condition, by any act which serves no legitimate purpose; or
32 (b) intending to cause public inconvenience, annoyance, or alarm, or recklessly
33 creating a risk thereof, [he] the person:
34 (i) displays a dangerous weapon in a public place under circumstances that would
35 cause a reasonable person to fear for the safety of any person;
36 [(i)] (ii) engages in fighting or in violent, tumultuous, or threatening behavior;
37 [(ii)] (iii) makes unreasonable noises in a public place;
38 [(iii)] (iv) makes unreasonable noises in a private place which can be heard in a public
39 place; or
40 [(iv)] (v) obstructs vehicular or pedestrian traffic.
41 (2) "Public place," for the purpose of this section, means any place to which the public
42 or a substantial group of the public has access and includes but is not limited to streets,
43 highways, and the common areas of schools, hospitals, apartment houses, office buildings,
44 transport facilities, and shops.
45 (3) The otherwise lawful possession of a dangerous weapon, whether visible or
46 concealed, without additional behavior, does not constitute a hazardous or physically offensive
47 condition, threatening behavior, or a cause for public inconvenience, annoyance, or alarm
48 under Subsection (1).
49 [(3)] (4) Disorderly conduct is a class C misdemeanor if the offense continues after a
50 request by a person to desist. Otherwise it is an infraction.

[Sandstone Addiction]

I'm not very good at interpreting this legal stuff...

[Iceaxe]

It says the guy at Penny's can not be charged with disorderly conduct just for having the firearm. It says he must display additional provocation.

In other words... lack of commonsense is not a reason for a ticket if you are minding your own business.

Or at least that is my take.

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[Sombeech]

He shouldn't be penalized for carrying a firearm, but what he was doing was trying to prove a point, open peoples' eyes, or whatever he wants to call it, in somewhat of a shocking manner. THAT is what he should be penalized for, causing somewhat of a disturbance.

[Iceaxe]

The guy at Penny's was not cited, but a guy at the provo mall last year was for doing the same thing. The law is being changed to protect your right to carry.

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[Iceaxe]

FYI - The 2013 session of the Utah Legislature convened on January 28. The following bill has been introduced:

House Bill 268, sponsored by state Representative Paul Ray (R-13), would provide that, in the absence of threatening behavior, the otherwise lawful possession of a firearm, whether visible or concealed, does not constitute a violation of Disorderly Conduct.

There is a problem in Utah that some jurisdictions are arresting people for open carry when it is clearly NOT prohibited by statute. These jurisdictions have sought creative ways to harass law-abiding firearm owners who are legally carrying unconcealed firearms for self-defense. HB 268 would remove one of the ploys (charging the person with Disorderly Conduct) being used by some jurisdictions within Utah to circumvent state law and the Utah Constitution in an attempt to go after these law-abiding firearm owners.