Anchor and Rope responsibility [Archive] - Bogley Outdoor Community

dweaver2130

01-13-2013, 12:36 PM

I am another new member but I have been taught that repairing, replacing, and ensuring that anchors are placed appropriately to prevent injury and resource damage is the right thing to do. I know fixed ropes are in some locations to assist with difficult down climbs and such, other locations I have not been too they might be placed for escape or who knows. I would say that the average unknowing family on a day hike might find a fixed line and possibly attempt to continue a hike that would be otherwise completely impossible without gear or experience and then find themselves in trouble. However I do not know where the ethics and/or politics sit on such fixed lines. Hopefully Tom will through his two cents in on this one.

TheBird

01-13-2013, 12:47 PM

I've removed a few bad anchors and replaced them with safer ones. Usually just slings with bad lengths that would rub the rope or make the pull difficult. I think if you run across an unsafe anchor just go ahead and remove it. Especially if you're replacing it with a better one.

I'm a bit more weary about removing any fixed rope though, even if it looks a little sketchy and since I don't bring anything to remove bolts I don't mess with lose or badly placed ones. I just hope that future groups use their judgement too.

Iceaxe

01-13-2013, 01:13 PM

I try to "leave no trace".

Now I know that is not really practical for most groups, but if you use it as a guide it makes all your other decisions easy.

Maybe the motto should be "try to leave no trace", which includes cleaning up after others.

Sent using Tapatalk

Slot Machine

01-13-2013, 02:05 PM

I have a question for the group. What is our responsibility when it comes to anchor and placed ropes?

For non-trade routes (remote desert routes):

We always remove or repair unsafe anchors, and always try and remove unnecessary anchors. We use ghosting techniques when possible and leave the canyon as clean as possible. When we enter "non-trade route" canyons we expect to find no existing anchors and neither should anyone else. (i.e. you aren't screwing anyone over by ghosting these canyons)

For trade routes (Zion mostly):

People expect anchors in most trade route canyons; so the ethic is to repair anchors that need to be repaired (mostly webbing on bolts). Building new anchors is normally not needed and usually frowned upon. If you were to remove all the webbing (or get crazy and remove the bolts too) from these canyons, you would be setting up subsequent groups for disaster.

I'd bet most, if not all Hawaii canyons fall into the first category. So let the trash collectin' begin! :mrgreen:

ratagonia

01-13-2013, 02:46 PM

Generally, I gotta agree with the crowd - trash is trash, fixed ropes are trash, bad webbing is trash. Bad anchors should be removed whether you replace them with a good anchor or not.

But, in Hawaii, the canyoning community is small. I know Dave Black got pissed about someone removing a couple ropes he had in place. A courtesy email could go along way toward keeping things congenial.

Tom

Slot Machine

01-13-2013, 03:25 PM

But, in Hawaii, the canyoning community is small. I know Dave Black got pissed about someone removing a couple ropes he had in place. A courtesy email could go along way toward keeping things congenial.

Tom

Huh, that seems strange given Mr Black's level of experience. Why did he leave those ropes in place? Why would he get pissed if they were removed?

Bob

ratagonia

01-13-2013, 03:43 PM

Huh, that seems strange given Mr Black's level of experience. Why did he leave those ropes in place? Why would he get pissed if they were removed?

Bob

It is Hawaii. Conditions are very different there.

You can ask him about the specifics if you want.

Tom

Dakine

01-13-2013, 06:11 PM

Thanks for the replies. I know Dave Black a little and would consult him on certain canyons. It just scares me that some tourist might come across a rope and get stuck or worse. I guess I will fix bad anchors and use my best judgement on fixed ropes. Thanks again and if any one has more to say I am all ears.

Dakine

01-13-2013, 06:18 PM

It is Hawaii. Conditions are very different there.

You can ask him about the specifics if you want.

Tom

The reasons people might get pissed are some locals might have placed them to get out of canyons were they pig hunt or grow stuff. In Dave's case I know he has some lines to get out of canyons in emergencies and I have used them.

Slot Machine

01-13-2013, 06:54 PM

It is Hawaii. Conditions are very different there.

You don't say?

Today in Hawaii:
62820

Today in Salt Lake City:
62821

You can ask him about the specifics if you want.

I didn't think my questions were controversial in the least. Let me rephrase: Why would any Hawaiian bruddah leave his rope in da canyon?

dweaver2130

01-13-2013, 08:21 PM

Today in Phoenix....
62823

Sorry for snickering at all you poor cold Utah folks....

Mojave Silence

01-13-2013, 10:19 PM

In Maui those lines are usually used by the locals to access the canyon for jumps etc. I wouldn't remove them if you wish to remain in good standing with the locals.

Renatomic808

01-21-2013, 04:02 PM

Personally, I've been rebolting some of the routes. Better placement, and reinforcing the anchors that are currently here. Some of the anchors are about 10 years old or more. I'd replace any anchor that looks sketchy, to keep myself alive, and not just "other's" who may be coming through the canyon later. Sucks that it does cost a little more, but its worth it to stay alive. Bolts are a lot easier to be inconspicuous here because, of all the plants, algae, and moss that grows. Due to the constant flash flooding of our streams, webbing tears and gets washed away so much that they end up in the ocean; choking some poor, defenseless turtle. A properly placed anchor out of the "flash course" fixes that problem.

As for fixed ropes here, we leave them as escape/egress lines. Other fixed lines are definitely set by locals who cliff jump. You DON'T want to remove those. In fact, I'd put better ropes, and retie the anchor. Make it bomber for them. In case you get caught doing that by the locals, you might gain a good friend in the area. Fixed line removal, my guess is from people who live in the area (private property owners), to deter trespassers from coming along. Another guess, is that the Department of Land and Natural Resources may have come across them. They DEFINITELY remove ropes for less environmental stompings.

SRG

01-22-2013, 09:52 AM

In bolt-free areas of Utah(North Wash, The Roost, The Swell, Cedar Mesa, Escalante), what is the proper etiquette/ethic for removing bolts or other fixed hardware... anyone know? Are ALL canyons in these areas supposed to be bolt-free? When posting this, the two examples I have in mind are the 3 bolt anchor for the rappel from Baptist Draw into Upper Chute and the fixed pin at the pothole in Alcatraz. Thoughts?

Kuya

01-22-2013, 12:39 PM

canyondevil

01-22-2013, 03:06 PM

SRG

01-22-2013, 03:44 PM

My thoughts are, if seeing bolts makes you angry, don't go into canyons with bolts... go into them with crowbars... I kid, I kid :naughty:.

Will this debate ever end? :facepalm1:

But seriously though, wasn't trying to rekindle the bolt wars with my original repost. I think the best bet to end the debate is to respect local ethics. If no one placed bolts where they shouldn't and no one chopped bolts where they shouldn't, then there wouldn't be an issue.

dweaver2130

01-22-2013, 04:49 PM

I thought Tom's post here was awesome on this....It was post five in this thread.

http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?66737-Elephant-Butte&highlight=climbing+ethics

Sorry not to sure how to link just the quote from page to page without just copy and pasting and then it loses context.

I have not done very many canyons but have never done any bolted ones, and would never see why, if the moves are easy or have acceptable risk and anchor material is abundant why bolt. Secondly I would personally never remove a bolt myself since I don't know the reason it was put there. I will leave that to people much much smarter than myself.

mzamp

01-22-2013, 09:54 PM

Why are there so many bolts at the big drop in blue John? Did they need rig special anchors for Brokaw and his crew?

Kuya

01-23-2013, 07:20 AM

The 3 bolt anchor in Baptist is rediculous and if I ever go back it all three of them may disappear. There is more than plenty of material to build a natural anchor at that drop. I'm not feeding the bolt war, just saying that nobody should ever expect a bolt (or 3 for that matter) to be there when they get there. Other canyons on that list are EF Blue John, NFRR, Quandary, The Squeeze, etc.

I would hope for you to seriously reconsider this. Baptist draw is a "Scout Friendly" canyon. This is one canyon where I can feel 100% ok with taking a boy scout troop through where I feel like I can follow the BSA rules.

I agree that the bolts are excessive and probably not even needed there, but with them there it allows me some security of taking some other groups through. Not saying that this should be the case in all canyons, but in this one I don't see the bolts being a harm to anyone. Actually they are allowing a scout master to take his boys on a really awesome trip and doesn't have to be scared of bending any rules.

MrAdam

01-23-2013, 08:02 AM

My thoughts are, if seeing bolts make you angry, don't go into canyons with bolts :bandit:

Shouldn't the opposite be true than? If you dont have the abilities or skill set to descend a canyon that was originally descended using only natural anchors, you and your bolt kit should stay at home.

... go into them with crowbars... I kid, I kid :naughty:.

A couple of us went thru Illusions here in AZ a few months back with a crowbar and removed about 8 bolts that had popped up in the canyon recently. They were all single bolt anchors where natural anchors were available.

Mountaineer

01-23-2013, 08:17 AM

I think of the ettiquite as being, somebody felt they had the right to place them, and you/I have the right to remove them. The 3 bolt anchor in Baptist is rediculous and if I ever go back it all three of them may disappear. There is more than plenty of material to build a natural anchor at that drop. Im not feeding the bolt war, just saying that nobody should ever expect a bolt (or 3 for that matter) to be there when they get there. Other canyons on that list are EF Blue John, NFRR, Quandary, The Squeeze, etc.

Not drawing myself into the debate right now (i.e. I'm of the opinion that bolts should be used sparingly, but have their place)...., but if you remove bolts that people "count on" being there, at least we need to keep the communication open on what is happening. The Quandary direct section has a bolt or two that are critical for getting through IMO, and now you are saying that I need to either carry my bolt kit the next time I attack it or; learn/practice some additional skills and bring the appropriate people. Let's be safe and help each other.

Scars on the canyon walls are the next topic. They can look worse than a bolt.

mzamp

01-23-2013, 11:25 AM

A couple of us went thru Illusions here in AZ a few months back with a crowbar and removed about 8 bolts that had popped up in the canyon recently. They were all single bolt anchors where natural anchors were available.

I went through in October and I think only counted about 6 total. There are a few spots that if you are expecting a bolt and don't plan ahead someone could get stuck. I hope you didn't rip those out.

In general - Unless a bolt is not safe just leave it alone. If you rip them out the next time a bolt happy person goes through they will probably just rebolt it.

As a disclaimer - I have never installed a bolt anywhere.

Kuya

01-23-2013, 11:50 AM

Deathcricket

01-23-2013, 12:47 PM

Shouldn't the opposite be true than? If you dont have the abilities or skill set to descend a canyon that was originally descended using only natural anchors, you and your bolt kit should stay at home.

A couple of us went thru Illusions here in AZ a few months back with a crowbar and removed about 8 bolts that had popped up in the canyon recently. They were all single bolt anchors where natural anchors were available.

Dude I agree! Unless you are elite like us and can afford to spend a half hour at each rap building a natural anchor and have mad skillz, stay the F out of our canyons. I get so offended when I see an unnatural bolt in nature. Way better to see a stack of rocks with some questionable webbing sticking out. There is no greater glory on this earth than unstacking and restacking a stack of rocks at each rap to make sure it meets my "standards". Every time I rip a bolt out with my crowbar I think to myself "Stupid noobs, how they gonna get down this now" and I cackle to myself maniacally as I force my will upon them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--Dgvv8FQKw
In case you can't hear the end, my buddy says "it's deep enough to just jump" and you hear me yell "woot". Was so glad we didn't have to spend a half hour here troubleshooting a "natural anchor" :lol8:

Mountaineer

01-23-2013, 01:18 PM

Ok, my opinion thrown in. Bolt rarely, and only when absolutely critical. I also hate to see bolts when not needed. I think the debate occurs on how you define the when. Some argue never.

When pulling bolts, follow it by some patch work that blends "in". Any best practices or material to use for patching holes?

Perhaps this deserves another thread...way off topic now ;-)

Slot Machine

01-23-2013, 06:04 PM

I think of the ettiquite as being, somebody felt they had the right to place them, and you/I have the right to remove them. The 3 bolt anchor in Baptist is rediculous and if I ever go back it all three of them may disappear. There is more than plenty of material to build a natural anchor at that drop. Im not feeding the bolt war, just saying that nobody should ever expect a bolt (or 3 for that matter) to be there when they get there. Other canyons on that list are EF Blue John, NFRR, Quandary, The Squeeze, etc.

FWIW, I'm pretty sure that Baptist would be rebolted before your crowbar got cold. It's a trade route. Why bother?

But the others... I think they would be more worthwhile game, and quite interesting to attempt "clean".

Also, I heard that there was a bolt above the crux in Zero G. Did anyone take this out? Can I add this to your list CD? :haha:

Renatomic808

01-24-2013, 03:27 AM

Time to go back on subject with Maui. I did some thinking, and I'd like to reiterate what Hawaii thinks.. the locals (me of course and friends who I am taking out.. and future interested parties).

This sport is VERY young in Maui. Though natural anchors are easy here, and it can be built, we prefer safety of bolts and peace of mind with bolts. It also reduces littering in canyons, as they are much more permanent. Webbing and other crap doesn't get washed all over the place. I'm in the helping the process of growing this sport to be culturally accepted by the locals.

We do not have any form of SAR with canyons here. This is also something i'm reaching out with our Maui Fire department. Apparently myself, and Dave Black and maybe 1 or 2 others, are the only ones who can find someone and help rescue. One wrong move (bad injury or death) would cause this sport to fall behind a few years. In order for the locals AND state to approve, they need a high demand for it, and extreme safety.

Rebuild those anchors that look sketchy. If a route needs to be "bolted' for peace of mind (especially by those with authority) then let's rebolt it.

If fixed lines are looking bad, leave a note at LEAST to mention the integrity of them.. though the best bet is to replace them.

Again, this is a VERY small canyoneering community on Maui. I'm trying to connect with everyone around. Judging from my experience, any form of "BOLT WARS" here will set canyoneering back a few years. So bolts are kind of a requirement to push this sport forward. I have made friends with very strong roots here, (where they want to become a part of their own sovereign nation)... At first he was against people "rappelling waterfalls". Especially if its just a bunch of mainlanders invading their sacred lands. However, I explained our process, and safety, along with bolts and accessing areas he hasn't seen that's right behind him. It doesn't have to be just mainlanders going in there. I've been trying to train him, and give HIM and his FAMILY access to their own backyards (canyons) and seeing what he's missing. Now he is very interested. Everything at first, made him feel unsafe. However the moment I mention bolts, redundancy, fall protection, etc.. etc.. he's considering it. I really would like to come out with us soon. This is DEFINITELY a proper step in pushing canyoneering forward in Maui. We need to get any local that's willing.. involved and wanting to do this sport.

I know one should up their skills for doing routes. But what's the point of having those skills, if you can't even use them. locals don't want cocky haole's saying "what's right, and what's wrong", when they don't even live here.

The rules of Canyoneering in Utah.. do not apply to the rules of canyoneering Maui. I'm actually writing a little handbook with tips and methods of canyoneering Maui. These are my opinions, but they work best through experience.

Kuya

01-24-2013, 07:35 AM

Though natural anchors are easy here, and it can be built, we prefer safety of bolts and peace of mind with bolts.

Arn't natural anchors, like sturdy trees and such, safer than bolts? Myself, I would think a bolt would be LESS safe than most natural anchors.

Brian in SLC

01-24-2013, 08:49 AM

Arn't natural anchors, like sturdy trees and such, safer than bolts? Myself, I would think a bolt would be LESS safe than most natural anchors.

Nope. Bolts rarely fail. My bet is there isn't a fatality at least in recent years due to a bolted rappel anchor failing.

In ANAM, year after year, there are accidents including fatalities where natural anchors fail. Now, this is climbing info, not canyoning, but, its rappelling or anchoring info and data, so...

I think there's been a fair number of at least injuries from "natural" or non-bolted anchors failing in the canyon community.

Of course, there's poorly placed bolted anchors, and, poorly done natural anchors, and everything in between.

A BFT (big f'n tree)? Yeah, usually bomber. Unless the sling around it isn't finished well...

Mojave Silence

01-24-2013, 09:17 AM

Arn't natural anchors, like sturdy trees and such, safer than bolts? Myself, I would think a bolt would be LESS safe than most natural anchors.

Depends. A bolt "less safe" than natural anchors, generally....no. A correctly installed bolt will hold 5,000-7,000 lbs, your spine will take about 2,000-ish lbs before snapping.

Kuya

01-24-2013, 10:04 AM

Depends. A bolt "less safe" than natural anchors, generally....no. A correctly installed bolt will hold 5,000-7,000 lbs, your spine will take about 2,000-ish lbs before snapping.

Not talking about my spine though :haha:, I'm talking about trees and large boulders and such. I'm still not convinced that a bolt is safer than anchoring off a sturdy tree. and it seems that there would be TONS of those to be found in Maui. but all is well. I'm not anti-bolt. I prefer to use natural anchors but it doesn't hurt my feelings to see a well placed sturdy bolt.

Renatomic808

01-24-2013, 11:57 AM

Not talking about my spine though :haha:, I'm talking about trees and large boulders and such. I'm still not convinced that a bolt is safer than anchoring off a sturdy tree. and it seems that there would be TONS of those to be found in Maui. but all is well. I'm not anti-bolt. I prefer to use natural anchors but it doesn't hurt my feelings to see a well placed sturdy bolt.

There are a ton of trees and rocks that make bomber natural anchors here. I trust a well built properly made natural anchor, just as much as a properly placed bolt. The only anchor I've had fail on me, was a rock anchor.. that someone else made, and i didn't double check.:nono: Good thing my ass is real fat, and cushioned my landing.

I think Mojave Silence is saying that you'll get killed from the shock of falling, before the bolt comes close to failing.

Anyways, the whole idea is trying to keep the canyons out here as safe as possible, and clean as possible. Though bolts may seem not as "clean" for the canyon.. it does have a lot less impact with what gets washed downstream, and into our ocean.

Kuya

01-24-2013, 01:32 PM

There are a ton of trees and rocks that make bomber natural anchors here. I trust a well built properly made natural anchor, just as much as a properly placed bolt. The only anchor I've had fail on me, was a rock anchor.. that someone else made, and i didn't double check.:nono: Good thing my ass is real fat, and cushioned my landing.

I think Mojave Silence is saying that you'll get killed from the shock of falling, before the bolt comes close to failing.

Anyways, the whole idea is trying to keep the canyons out here as safe as possible, and clean as possible. Though bolts may seem not as "clean" for the canyon.. it does have a lot less impact with what gets washed downstream, and into our ocean.

Gotcha! The real concern here is WHEN CAN I AFFORD TO GET BACK TO MAUI AND DO SOME CANYONEERING!! :kickit:

Renatomic808

01-25-2013, 01:26 AM

Gotcha! The real concern here is WHEN CAN I AFFORD TO GET BACK TO MAUI AND DO SOME CANYONEERING!! :kickit:

When you make it here.. let me know! Let's head out and play... and random question.. you filipino? lol

Slot Machine

01-25-2013, 07:27 AM

I know one should up their skills for doing routes. But what's the point of having those skills, if you can't even use them. locals don't want cocky haole's saying "what's right, and what's wrong", when they don't even live here.

The rules of Canyoneering in Utah.. do not apply to the rules of canyoneering Maui. I'm actually writing a little handbook with tips and methods of canyoneering Maui. These are my opinions, but they work best through experience.

Great posts, thanks for the education! :2thumbs: Had no idea things were so different there (guess that is obvious). I'm looking forward to your handbook.

Kuya

01-25-2013, 07:28 AM

When you make it here.. let me know! Let's head out and play... and random question.. you filipino? lol

I will for sure! Wish I would have been in contact with you guys last April when we were there. Ah well, next time!

I am not a Filipino, I just speak the Language :) I lived in the Philippines a couple of years and so I am partial to the people and the language :):cool2:

ratagonia

01-25-2013, 09:58 AM

I would hope for you to seriously reconsider this. Baptist draw is a "Scout Friendly" canyon. This is one canyon where I can feel 100% ok with taking a boy scout troop through where I feel like I can follow the BSA rules.

I agree that the bolts are excessive and probably not even needed there, but with them there it allows me some security of taking some other groups through. Not saying that this should be the case in all canyons, but in this one I don't see the bolts being a harm to anyone. Actually they are allowing a scout master to take his boys on a really awesome trip and doesn't have to be scared of bending any rules.

Very, VERY scary.

May I suggest it is inappropriate for YOU to take kids into the Wilderness when you lack the ability to descend canyons under anticipated conditions. It is not OUR job to make sure the canyon is bolted down to a level that your limited skills allow you to traverse it safely - it IS YOUR JOB to have the skills to descend canyons in the conditions likely to be found, which includes with the bolts removed. If you take kids into canyons without these skills, you are recklessly endangering those under your care.

What Council are you in? What are your Council's requirements for taking kids technical canyoneering?

May I suggest: Dark Horse Leadership
(801) 853-8593 (Website is not up at the moment).

And yes, I am harshing on you, Kuya.That is MY job. Baptist Draw is a beginner-friendly canyon without the bolts. One thing I learned in Scouts is to adapt to the natural environment, not to change the environment to accommodate my dainty derrierre.

Tom

ratagonia

01-25-2013, 10:01 AM

FWIW, I'm pretty sure that Baptist would be rebolted before your crowbar got cold. It's a trade route. Why bother?

But the others... I think they would be more worthwhile game, and quite interesting to attempt "clean".

Also, I heard that there was a bolt above the crux in Zero G. Did anyone take this out? Can I add this to your list CD? :haha:

There is a lot of history to support Baptist as a beginner-friendly, natural anchor canyon. The bolts in there are a recent 'innovation'. Removal of bolts in canyoneering does not usually lead to re-placement.

Tom

Kuya

01-25-2013, 10:23 AM

Very, VERY scary.

May I suggest it is inappropriate for YOU to take kids into the Wilderness when you lack the ability to descend canyons under anticipated conditions. It is not OUR job to make sure the canyon is bolted down to a level that your limited skills allow you to traverse it safely - it IS YOUR JOB to have the skills to descend canyons in the conditions likely to be found, which includes with the bolts removed. If you take kids into canyons without these skills, you are recklessly endangering those under your care.

What Council are you in? What are your Council's requirements for taking kids technical canyoneering?

May I suggest: Dark Horse Leadership
(801) 853-8593 (Website is not up at the moment).

And yes, I am harshing on you, Kuya.That is MY job. Baptist Draw is a beginner-friendly canyon without the bolts. One thing I learned in Scouts is to adapt to the natural environment, not to change the environment to accommodate my dainty derrierre.

Tom

Tom, Who says I lack the ability to take scouts through a canyon? This post is not about my skills, I need not have to prove my qualifications to you, but my point was that if the bolts are left it makes that canyon "scout friendly" meaning that it conforms to the guidelines outlined in the BSA Topping Out manual.

having done Baptist a few times now, to take them through baptist draw with or without those bolts would not be an issue for us. There are some obvious natural anchors at the last rappel which I would be happy use in order to rig a safe rappel. But as you are aware, the canyoneering regulations in the UNP Council are a bit vague. But the Topping Out manual asks that there be at least a two point anchor and best if it is 3 for rappelling activities. Baptist draw has that!! so It makes it easier to conform to the BSA climbing/ rappelling regulations.

That is all I am saying. by leaving those bolts it makes it easier for me to conform to the BSA rules for managing a climbing/rappeling program in that canyon.

Iceaxe

01-25-2013, 10:26 AM

ratagonia

01-25-2013, 10:32 AM

Tom, Who says I lack the ability to take scouts through a canyon?

Your statement that Baptist would be more beginner-friendly with some randomly placed bolts, causes me to suspect your skills.

Do you have the BSA Canyoneering Leader certification?

Tom

ratagonia

01-25-2013, 10:36 AM

Yank the bolts in Baptist. If you do not have the ability to descend Baptist without bolts you do not have the skills required to canyoneer safely.

With regards to the bolt in Zero G, if it is the same bolt I know of it was placed by SAR during a rescue and was not placed to dumb the canyon down.

I'm not sure what to think about SAR bolts as I haven't given it much thought. Just off the top of my head I'm inclined to leave them as they were not placed to gumby up the canyon and will speed up future rescues.... thoughts?

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

Zion-SAR has a few in Pine Creek, that they would prefer be left in place, even though they are in an odd place. Even though I am pretty anti-bolt, I think we should also support our SAR teams...

Then again, capable SAR teams do rescues without putting in bolts, when possible.

And, some SAR teams are not allowed to use other people's bolts when doing rescues. So they require themselves to place new bolts rather than using ones already in place, when putting a client on rope.

Tom

Kuya

01-25-2013, 10:38 AM

Your statement that Baptist would be more beginner-friendly with some randomly placed bolts, causes me to suspect your skills.

Do you have the BSA Canyoneering Leader certification?

Tom

The BSA Canyoneering Leader Cert is not offered in the UNP council, that I am aware of. (If i'm not mistaken that is a GSL Council cert)

and i have made no such statement about the canyon being a "beginner friendly" canyon with "randomly" placed bolts. I have mentioned that it is a "scout friendly" canyon. and it is only scout friendly cuz it has 3 bolts to use as an anchor for that last rappel, which means it conforms to the BSA rules outlined in Topping Out.

ratagonia

01-25-2013, 10:41 AM

Tom, Who says I lack the ability to take scouts through a canyon?

... But the Topping Out manual asks that there be at least a two point anchor and best if it is 3 for rappelling activities. Baptist draw has that!! so It makes it easier to conform to the BSA climbing/ rappelling regulations.

That is all I am saying. by leaving those bolts it makes it easier for me to conform to the BSA rules for managing a climbing/rappeling program in that canyon.

These statements, too, call into doubt your abilities to take scouts through a canyon.

I believe you can get a two or three-point anchor for your scouts in Baptist, easily. What I see is that it is INCONVENIENT for you to conform to the local ethic. This is a poor attitude to transfer to your scouts - kinda the opposite of what scouting is supposed to teach kids.

Tom

canyondevil

01-25-2013, 11:17 AM

Kuya- what about the first rap in Baptist? How do you get around the BSA three anchor rule on that one? Or are there 3 bolts with chains there also?

Nothing says wilderness like this:

63080

Kuya

01-25-2013, 12:20 PM

OH wow. Pick on Kuya day today! :nod:

I still don't see how my remarks in this thread call into question my canyoneering abilities. Nevertheless, you are right Tom. It would merely be an inconvenience if the bolts are removed.

Really I am all for descending canyons by using natural anchors and if the ones in Baptist are removed, so-be-it. We will manage still and have a great time. And still be grateful for people like you who freely provide the beta that allows people like me to access canyons.

My original purpose was to make known my feelings to Canyon Devil to reconsider ripping out the bolts.

I would hope for you to seriously reconsider this. Baptist draw is a "Scout Friendly" canyon. This is one canyon where I can feel 100% ok with taking a boy scout troop through where I feel like I can follow the BSA rules.

I agree that the bolts are excessive and probably not even needed there, but with them there it allows me some security of taking some other groups through. Not saying that this should be the case in all canyons, but in this one I don't see the bolts being a harm to anyone. Actually they are allowing a scout master to take his boys on a really awesome trip and doesn't have to be scared of bending any rules.

I apologize if my "feeling" that way makes you angry.

Kuya

01-25-2013, 12:24 PM

Kuya- what about the first rap in Baptist? How do you get around the BSA three anchor rule on that one? Or are there 3 bolts with chains there also?

You mean that 15' "downclimb"? :naughty:

ratagonia

01-25-2013, 12:35 PM

...
I apologize if my "feeling" that way makes you angry.

The Interwebs - a Powerful Tool for Miss-communication!

No anger involved, merely concern.

Tom

Kuya

01-25-2013, 12:39 PM

The Interwebs - a Powerful Tool for Miss-communication!

Isn't that the truth!

canyondevil

01-25-2013, 01:06 PM

Kuya

01-25-2013, 01:42 PM

No, I am referring to this drop, (from Tom's beta):
"Eventually it drops about 30 feet, demanding a rappel off slings around a pinch or rock bollard."
http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/images/stories/PDFs/Swell/SouthernSwell/BaptistDraw.pdf

If the safety of the scouts is really what you are concerned about, I sure hope you arent making them downclimb that.

hehehe A "downclimb" protected by a rope:naughty: J/K that is why I put the word "downclimb" in quotation marks.

Anyway, I'm assuming you are talking about this short rappel (start at 1:49 in the video)

http://youtu.be/cxkO751wS1Q?t=1m49s

of course, if it is a BSA climbing/rappelling activity all rappels would need to be rigged with a redundant anchor and protected with either a Top Belay (if using one strand of rope) or or Fireman Belay (if using double strands).

Mojave Silence

01-25-2013, 07:47 PM

I've been trying to train him, and give HIM and his FAMILY access to their own backyards (canyons) and seeing what he's missing. Now he is very interested. Everything at first, made him feel unsafe. However the moment I mention bolts, redundancy, fall protection, etc.. etc.. he's considering it.
.

Is that the dude that BBQ's up a mean chicken ?

Renatomic808

01-26-2013, 01:20 AM

Is that the dude that BBQ's up a mean chicken ?

Yeah.. "dat guy". He lives there.. he deserves to play there.

ratagonia

01-26-2013, 07:38 PM

of course, if it is a BSA climbing/rappelling activity all rappels would need to be rigged with a redundant anchor and protected with either a Top Belay (if using one strand of rope) or or Fireman Belay (if using double strands).

Fun video.

One comment: http://thecrashreel.com/

More specifically, you might try this page:

http://thecrashreel.com/?page_id=16

Tom

Mountaineer

01-26-2013, 08:41 PM

Loved the video! Wow, the thread that keeps livin'! ;-)

Kuya - thanks for being positive and acting on Tom's comments (on a public forum). Tom's, mine, yours, and many others write one thing while we intended something a bit different. Just the nature of this type of communication.

You acknowledged a couple of important, and critical points. One point, we all share (well...hopefully all - but for sure most), is that good, clean canyon ethics in canyons should be followed. When others stray, or may be perceived to stray, from that (i.e. placing unnecessary bolts), it causes frustration. I can see how some comments could be perceived as being lazy and passing on poor practices. To remain silent to such would be a disservice. Second, when it comes to BSA rules (as I know you know) any leader needs to be mindful of the responsibility and risk they take on. I've mentioned this a while ago in some previous threads.

Before joining "the canyoneering community" a couple of years ago, I also took scouts on climbing/canyon/rappelling trips out of a spirit of volunteering and trying to do good will for some great kids. However, I've since learned that if someone got hurt, the BSA would leave me "on my own". There are some very specific rules and certs you need (well ... some argue the rules are still ambiguous). So, unfortunately, I'm not doing these types of trips for the scouts here right now until I can get those. (And hopefully soon).

Two objectives. First, that when constructive points come out in this forum, that they are taken in a learning way so we can all improve or be reminded. When others silently read these threads, then plan to do a canyon, just perhaps these core principles will be remembered, take seed, and be adhered to. I see some very positive good from that. And second, that it doesn't push others away from posting or wanting to join the forum. I feel it would be a tragedy to diminish the community to only a few people out of fear of being "reprimanded" from a post. Don't be afraid to share your thoughts, ask for help, help others, and be open to the better.

airman

01-29-2013, 07:37 PM

... but my point was that if the bolts are left it makes that canyon "scout friendly" meaning that it conforms to the guidelines outlined in the BSA Topping Out manual

BSA standards require bolts and hangars to be UIAA or CE rated. I haven't been through Baptist, but judging from the three bolt photo (foto?), I doubt that is a rated setup.

... the canyoneering regulations in the UNP Council are a bit vague.

True. But if your troop is an LDS sponsored unit, the requirements imposed by the First Presidency for high risk activities (such as canyoneering) are not vague. These activities must be led by a "trained or certified guide." http://www.lds.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/safety-letter-first-presidency-eng.pdf?lang=eng. If you are an LDS scout leader, I would have your leader check with the church risk management department to see if whatever training or certifications you have meet these requirements. Unless you are an insured professional guide or are a BSA Canyon Leader (through the Great Salt Lake Council) I'd suspect that it is unlikely that you meet these requirements. I don't speak for the LDS church or the BSA, so you need to independently verify everything I have stated in this regard.

I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade here, but the requirements to take scouts canyoneering are rather lofty; appropriately so. I'd hate to see the consequences of someone getting hurt and the fallout that would result from not following the rules. I have seen too many untrained scout leaders out in the canyons (with good intentions I think), and it is very concerning to contemplate the risks that they are naively taking for themselves and others.

I know there is no ill intent here. I applaud the desire to provide youth the opportunity to experience challenging wilderness experiences. But let's think twice, use good judgment, and exercise an abundance of caution when someone entrusts their kid to our care and we undertake an activity under the auspices of charitable organizations.

Sorry to leak off the main thread topic, but I think this is an issue that deserves recurring attention.

mzamp

01-30-2013, 04:41 AM

I have seen too many untrained scout leaders...

Reminds me of last September running into a scout troop coming down Picacho peak and the scout leader was struggling. Needless to say we topped out and caught him on the way back down sitting alone out of water and exhausted. I gave him my unopened water and took his pack from him which must have weighed over 50 pounds. My Rainier pack was lighter than his. Not sure what is required to carry as a scout leader, but for all I know he had a mini-keg in there. :lol8:

Kuya

01-30-2013, 07:02 AM

Very good information? Thanks for sharing :nod: Still I have a few questions/comments.

"BSA standards require bolts and hangars to be UIAA or CE rated. I haven't been through Baptist, but judging from the three bolt photo (foto?), I doubt that is a rated setup."

First, Your comment about bolts is true. Topping Out pg 100 suggests the following: "Every route for climbing and rappelling must feature fail-safe anchor points, preferably large, living trees or solid rock projections. If artifical protection must be installed, use bolts of at least 3/8-inch diameter approved for climbing purposes, and have them installed by a qualified expert approved by the council's climbing/rappelling committee."

and on page 64 it tells us that: Of the several types of bolts in common use today, only a UIAA- or CEN -approved bolt meets BSA Standards"

Now, having been further enlightened. Go ahead and yank out the bolts in Baptist draw! :lol8: it will be easier to just use the natural anchors in the area :stud:.

True. But if your troop is an LDS sponsored unit, the requirements imposed by the First Presidency for high risk activities (such as canyoneering) are not vague. These activities must be led by a "trained or certified guide."

To quote again from the letter from the First Presidency: "Activities that pose greater risk, such as white-water rafting or rock climbing, should not be undertaken unless led by trained or certified guides, or in conjunction with Scout-sponsored camps or High Adventure bases." (Bold and Italics added).

What do you make of the bolded statement? I am lead to believe that a Scout Climbing/rappelling program can be run by a local LDS troop who has leaders with the appropriate BSA certifications. According to the UNPC Website (http://www.utahscouts.org/training/required-training-courses/climbing/23345), in order to run a climbing/rappelling program A "qualified rock climbing instructor who is at least 21 years of age must supervise all BSA climbing/rappelling activities. A currently trained BSA climbing director or instructor is highly recommended. To qualify as a climbing instructor, you must successfully complete a minimum of 10 hours of instructor training for climbing/rappelling from a nationally or regionally recognized organization, a climbing school or a college-level climbing/rappelling course.

However, there is nothing to be said about canyoneering. :facepalm1: Which is why I commented about the rules being vague.

I wish the UNPC would just adopt the GSLC's canyoneering program.:nod:

Brian in SLC

01-30-2013, 09:23 AM

Canyoneering = rappelling?

You could probably replace the crappy washer stack and rusted chain on those bolts with standard hangers. If someone does try to remove those anchors, remember those are stud bolts and they usually don't extract out of the rock too well. They'd need to be chopped off, driven into the hole, then patched appropriately to leave the least mess.

They look huge, like 1/2" stud/bolts? Might be tough to snap them off flush with the rock. Take a big hammer. My bet is they'd be tough to yank with any crowbar. A super long torque bar might over torque them and snap them off flush, though. A little tap here and there with a cold chisel might introduce enough of a weak spot to create a failure point flush with the rock. Might be hard to chop them and not scar up the rock.

Kuya

01-30-2013, 10:19 AM

Canyoneering = rappelling?

For those wanting a definition of canyoneering, some good ones are found here (http://www.canyoneering.net/forums/content.php?42-Canyoneering-A-Primer), here (http://www.climb-utah.com/intro.htm), and here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canyoning). :facepalm1:

Of course, all of us on this forum probably know what canyoneering is. And yes, for tech canyons it does involve rappelling. Which is what makes it high risk according to the BSA (That and the fact that it might possibly require swimming and wilderness travel beyond 30 min of travel time to a medical facility). Which is why it requires training and people to know what they are doing.

What would be really helpful actually is if someone could explain clearly how a Local BSA Scout Leader in the UNPC could legitimately take his boys on a canyoneering trip with out the use of a guide service. The best I can come up with is that a leader needs to have CPR certification be well versed in BSA Climb On Safely, and Safety Swim Defence, and the leader needs to be a certified by a nationally recognized climbing program to qualify as a BSA Climbing Instructor. With that, it seems that a Scout Leader could successfully submit a Tour Plan and get it approved for a canyoneering trip.

Thoughts?

Brian in SLC

01-30-2013, 02:39 PM

The best I can come up with is that a leader needs to have CPR certification be well versed in BSA Climb On Safely, and Safety Afloat, and the leader needs to be a certified by a nationally recognized climbing program to qualify as a BSA Climbing Instructor. With that, it seems that a Scout Leader could successfully submit a Tour Plan and get it approved for a canyoneering trip.

Thoughts?

Well...I wasn't confused (ha ha). Seems like to me, everywhere the BSA reg's where there is climbing mentioned there's also rappelling mentioned, so, even though "canyoneering" isn't called out per se, the same requirements apply, and, I think you got it with regard to the minimum requirements.

airman

01-30-2013, 07:30 PM

Good on ya for digging in and trying to get to the bottom of this, Kuya! :2thumbs:

What would be really helpful actually is if someone could explain clearly how a Local BSA Scout Leader in the UNPC could legitimately take his boys on a canyoneering trip with out the use of a guide service.

Yes it would. I wish I could help you, but I honestly don't know the answer to your question. I think the Great Salt Lake Council has addressed these issues, but I'm not sure about the UNPC. The GSLC canyoneering policy can be found here: http://www.doubleknot.com/openrosters/DocDownload.aspx?id=92129.

May I suggest that you contact the UNPC council with your questions regarding BSA policy. If your unit is sponsored by the LDS Church, I would also verify that whatever you find out from the UNPC is also compliant with church safety policies and guidelines. You asked a good question in an earlier post about the First Presidency letter regarding safety. The very end of Section 13.6.20 of Handbook 2 of the Handbook of Instructions (https://www.lds.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/language-materials/08702_eng.pdf?lang=eng) states: "The stake president (or a bishop under his direction) refers questions about safety issues ... to the Risk Management Division or to the area office." I think that is going to be your best resource in finding an answer to your questions.

well versed in ... and Safety Afloat ...
As a side note, I think Safe Swim Defense would be much more relevant than Safety Afloat. I suspect that Safe Swim Defense is what you meant.

I hope you find an answer to your questions and are able to take youth canyoneering within the rules set forth by the BSA and the LDS Church (if applicable). As you consider these issues, ask yourself these kinds questions:

1. If an accident occurred, would I likely be covered by BSA insurance and/or Church insurance?
2. Do I have the skills to rescue a Scout with a stuck rappel device?
3. Do I have the skills and equipment needed to treat a serious injury in the wilderness?
4. Do I have other competent, experienced, and trained leaders who can help me?
5. Do I know what to do if a Scout freaks out in the canyon and has to be hauled out or requires a tandem rappel?
6. Do I have access to BSA-compliant equipment, including harnesses, helmets, and rappel devices for all participants?
7. Can I build anchor systems in a canyon that are BSA compliant?
8. Can I meet the legal standard of care that is necessary when entrusted with someone else's son or daughter?

I could go on, but I hope that helps give you a taste of things that you should think about. From my perspective, relying merely on a BSA Climbing Instructor certification seems inadequate for taking youth canyoneering. I believe canyoneering requires a higher skill set, including rescue skills. Topping Out (and presumably most BSA Climbing instruction) doesn't cover pick offs, ascending, passing knots on ascent/descent, haul systems, and so on. It is my opinion that these skills are necessary when canyoneering with Scouts. That's just my 2 cents.

Moderators: May I kindly suggest that the latter portion of this thread be split into a separate thread on Scouting and Canyoneering.

Kuya

01-30-2013, 07:42 PM

Good on ya for digging in and trying to get to the bottom of this, Kuya! :2thumbs:

Yes it would. I wish I could help you, but I honestly don't know the answer to your question. I think the Great Salt Lake Council has addressed these issues, but I'm not sure about the UNPC. The GSLC canyoneering policy can be found here: http://www.doubleknot.com/openrosters/DocDownload.aspx?id=92129.

May I suggest that you contact the UNPC council with your questions regarding BSA policy. If your unit is sponsored by the LDS Church, I would also verify that whatever you find out from the UNPC is also compliant with church safety policies and guidelines. You asked a good question in an earlier post about the First Presidency letter regarding safety. The very end of Section 13.6.20 of Handbook 2 of the Handbook of Instructions (https://www.lds.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/language-materials/08702_eng.pdf?lang=eng) states: "The stake president (or a bishop under his direction) refers questions about safety issues ... to the Risk Management Division or to the area office." I think that is going to be your best resource in finding an answer to your questions.

As a side note, I think Safe Swim Defense would be much more relevant than Safety Afloat. I suspect that Safe Swim Defense is what you meant.

I hope you find an answer to your questions and are able to take youth canyoneering within the rules set forth by the BSA and the LDS Church (if applicable). As you consider these issues, ask yourself these kinds questions:

1. If an accident occurred, would I likely be covered by BSA insurance and/or Church insurance?
2. Do I have the skills to rescue a Scout with a stuck rappel device?
3. Do I have the skills and equipment needed to treat a serious injury in the wilderness?
4. Do I have other competent, experienced, and trained leaders who can help me?
5. Do I know what to do if a Scout freaks out in the canyon and has to be hauled out or requires a tandem rappel?
6. Do I have access to BSA-compliant equipment, including harnesses, helmets, and rappel devices for all participants?
7. Can I build anchor systems in a canyon that are BSA compliant?
8. Can I meet the legal standard of care that is necessary when entrusted with someone else's son or daughter?

I could go on, but I hope that helps give you a taste of things that you should think about. From my perspective, relying merely on a BSA Climbing Instructor certification seems inadequate for taking youth canyoneering. I believe canyoneering requires a higher skill set, including rescue skills. Topping Out (and presumably most BSA Climbing instruction) doesn't cover pick offs, ascending, passing knots on ascent/descent, haul systems, and so on. It is my opinion that these skills are necessary when canyoneering with Scouts. That's just my 2 cents.

Moderators: May I kindly suggest that the latter portion of this thread be split into a separate thread on Scouting and Canyoneering.

This is what I am talking about! Thanks for this post! Very Helpful!:2thumbs:

Yeah, I have looked into the GSLC program (today I even talked to the guy who helped develop their program) , and I really wish the UNPC would adopt something similar.

I have sent some emails to the scouting execs in the UNPC. I am very interested in what they have to say about canyoneering in their council.

Your list above has hit on some key points! Thanks again for your input.

Kuya

02-08-2013, 09:09 AM

Got a email from the UNPC Camping Chairman:

Get certified to take your group out climbing, rappelling or canyoneering

All Utah National Park Council climbing, rappelling, and canyoneering activities must take place under the supervision of certified Climbing Instructors from the council other than while working with licensed and insured professional guide services.

Currently the council is working on a new certification program. This program will include several days of instruction, practical application as well as a certification test. Instruction will be provided by professional services from within the community, however the Utah National Parks Council will administer the certification and testing process.

Due to the new policies and procedures within the council all past certified Climbing Instructors will need to become updated on the new pollicies and procedures then successfully pass the written and practical exam administered by the Council in order to be active climbing instructors.

Certification testing as well as training will begin spring 2013.

Finally a LITTLE bit of clarification from the UNPC! :clap: not perfect, but at least getting somewhere.