Micro traxion question

[spinesnaper]

I was just cruising CanyoneeringUSA and read the blurb describing the Petzl micro-traxion for use, among other things, as "fantastic for a canyoneering style ascending system." That was my thought too in conjunction with my tibloc. I brought these items with me over the summer when I did a self-rescue day of training with Zeke Federman of Sierra Rock Climbing School. In an ascending set up, the micro-traxion worked like a dream and it is light and of course it can also be used for hauling. Zeke was a bit concerned about the micro-traxion. His principle concern was stressing the devise to the point of failure. Should that occur, one would be left with a single point of rope attachment being the tibloc (or other ascending devise that you might be using in your system). He was concerned that another point of rope attachment (i.e. a third point of attachment) was needed to make the system safe. I take his point but I thought I would put the question to the canyoneering dirt bags and engineering propeller heads that contribute to this forum to see what others think about this concern. I think the two points (tibloc and micro traxion would be fine for say a 20 foot pull up something but perhaps the point is relevant if one is going ascend 200 ft of rope. Any thoughts on the issue?

Ken

P.S. I am loving Todd Martin's Grand Caynoneering-pure canyoneering porn. Just an amazing guide book!:nod:

[Dakine]

Let me start with I am not an expert and this is my personal opinion. I use a micro-traxion and a hand ascender. The micro-traction is attached to my harness, the rope, and the foot strap. The hand ascender is attached to the rope and the harness. If one fails then the other is the back up, so this is a solid system. I also keep an autoblock on my harness so I would use it as a prusik to replace the failed device. Obviously my 2 cents opinions are welcome.

[MrAdam]

I use a similar setup, but with a Ropeman II on the belay loop of my harness and a Petzl Basic as a footloop ascender, attached to the harness with my personal anchor. I had to ascend 90' in Big Canyon in the Little Colorado and 30' in Imlay to fix stuck ropes and it worked great both times. I also have a VT Prussik on my harness just in case I need an additional rope grab or one of the ascenders fails.

Personally, I never understood why some people say you need 2 or 3 points of contact on the rope when ascending, but only require one, your belay/rappel device, when descending!

[MrAdam]

P.S. I am loving Todd Martin's Grand Caynoneering-pure canyoneering porn. Just an amazing guide book!:nod:

P.S. The canyons are even better in person.......

29 Mile Canyon/Shinumo Wash

62641

62642

The big 400' waterfall in Garden Creek

62643

Rap into the Emerald Pools- Big Canyon- Little Colorado River Gorge

62644

Middle arm of Deer Creek

62645

[tcott]

I use a similar setup, but with a Ropeman II on the belay loop of my harness and a Petzl Basic as a footloop ascender, attached to the harness with my personal anchor. I had to ascend 90' in Big Canyon in the Little Colorado and 30' in Imlay to fix stuck ropes and it worked great both times. I also have a VT Prussik on my harness just in case I need an additional rope grab or one of the ascenders fails.

Personally, I never understood why some people say you need 2 or 3 points of contact on the rope when ascending, but only require one, your belay/rappel device, when descending!

I have seen ascenders including the Ropeman II fail and slip unexpectedly making a second attachment point prudent. I have not however seen a rappel device fail releasing it's hold on the rope.

[Canyonbug]

I use a Micro Traxion attached to my harness and a regular ascender above this on the rope. I use a separate pulley attached to the ascender as well as a foot loop attached to it and a tether back to my harness. This provides me with two points of contact on the rope and creates a 3:1 hauling system that I use to haul myself up the rope. The Micro Traxion acts as one pulley in the system as well as a PCD on the harness to act as a contact point.

[MrAdam]

I have seen ascenders including the Ropeman II fail and slip unexpectedly making a second attachment point prudent. I have not however seen a rappel device fail releasing it's hold on the rope.

Good point!

[ratagonia]

From what I have overheard, SAR protocol requires 3 attachment points when ascending a rope. If you have plenty of gear, this is probably a good idea. A passive ratchet device can be added to the system that acts as a third, backup device, that minds itself.

But we are not part of a SAR team, and don't have a lot of equipment. It IS important to be clipped into both your ascending devices, in case one slips. You SHOULD have a third one available if needed - for instance, getting over a sharp edge, or when the rope is icy. You can always pull the rope up from below and tie into it a few feet below you, as a backup. These are called "Chicken Loops" and are standard procedure for climbers on big walls, at least for me when climbing big walls.

It is up to each person to make their own decision on this point. Me, I use the Micro-traxion direct to my belay loop, and a tibloc above me with a foot-loop, and clipped into with my safety leash. When doing substantial rope-climbing, I use one handled ascender in place of the tibloc.

Tom

[hank moon]

Personally, I never understood why some people say you need 2 or 3 points of contact on the rope when ascending, but only require one, your belay/rappel device, when descending!

Someone already mentioned that ascenders can slip. They can also come off the rope when unweighted (or mis-weighted). Again, descender attachment is generally more secure.


Zeke was a bit concerned about the micro-traxion. His principle concern was stressing the devise to the point of failure.

The MT is (apparently) no more subject to failure than any other piece of PPE, so I wonder why Zeke is concerned? Maybe due to the size of the device? Please, more info if possible. It might wear a bit faster faster than other ascend/grab devices due to the lower number of teeth...on vera.

[spinesnaper]

Someone already mentioned that ascenders can slip. They can also come off the rope when unweighted (or mis-weighted). Again, descender attachment is generally more secure.



The MT is (apparently) no more subject to failure than any other piece of PPE, so I wonder why Zeke is concerned? Maybe due to the size of the device? Please, more info if possible. It might wear a bit faster faster than other ascend/grab devices due to the lower number of teeth...on vera.

Hank

I think if I had shown up with the Pro Traxion which weighs close to a pound Zeke would have been less concerned than eyeballing the puny looking micro traxion that weighs in about 3 ounces. In fact they both have the same break strength of 4kN as a progress capture device. I don't think Zeke had seen the device up close and personal before and he had questions about the integrity of the device for life safety. I do agree that the Pro is a whole lot more hardware than the micro traxion but of course the minimal weight of the device and its versatility make it very appealing. I just thought I would get some additional opinions.

I think Tom's point of actually being clipped in to both ascending devices is critical. Having a foot in a loop is not an actual point of physical attachment to a rope and that is true of whatever ascending system you are using.


P.S. The canyons are even better in person....... MrAdam

I may have to hire a swimming llama for my canyoneering partner. Great pix!

Ken

[dweaver2130]

My question over this topic is in regards to the usability of a micro-traxion vs rope man 2. Would the petzl work "better" for more types of canyoneering uses than the ropeman 2. I just went over some ascending/self-rescue training using two ropeman's and a pulley that essentially made a 3:1 haul/ascending system much like what was talked about earlier in this thread. Which worked fairly well. Biggest thing, what gives a canyoneer the most bang for their weight/space/bucks.

I think the one thing I've learned is that whatever you decide to bring into a canyon with you better be small, easy to use, durable, and have more than one use.

[hank moon]

Spinesnaper, that makes sense...it is a dinky l'lil PPE. And yeah, always clip into both ascenders. Cavers used to use a different type of "chicken loop" as a super-safety backup (ahem) and I've never been a fan of the concept (inverted suspension from footloop, held in place by a chicken loop around the ankle). But I think that era's over!

[ratagonia]

My question over this topic is in regards to the usability of a micro-traxion vs rope man 2. Would the petzl work "better" for more types of canyoneering uses than the ropeman 2. I just went over some ascending/self-rescue training using two ropeman's and a pulley that essentially made a 3:1 haul/ascending system much like what was talked about earlier in this thread. Which worked fairly well. Biggest thing, what gives a canyoneer the most bang for their weight/space/bucks.

I think the one thing I've learned is that whatever you decide to bring into a canyon with you better be small, easy to use, durable, and have more than one use.

The Micro-Traxion works very well, and includes a pulley. It works much better than a tibloc and a ropeman2. But of course, it does weigh more and costs more. To ME the superior function makes it worthwhile to carry at least some of the time. My previous carry was two Tiblocs, and making sure I had two new fat-round carabiners to use with them.

Your function to cost curve is likely quite different than mine. :cool2:

Tom

[deagol]

.... I use the Micro-traxion direct to my belay loop, and a tibloc above me with a foot-loop, and clipped into with my safety leash. .....
Tom


This is the same setup I use and have not had problems. I have been able to go up over smooth lips with no problems.

[Brian in SLC]

I've used a -mini Traxion but not tried the micro...but, I would swap for one for sure. Neat little rig!

I used the re-direct off my harness like someone mentioned above. With the mini on my waist, redirected through a top ascender with a pulley, I can ascend a flat smooth wall without a foot stirrup. Huge advantage.

Having a mini with a DMM revolver is pretty sweet, even if your top ascender is a Prusik.

[tcott]

I've used a -mini Traxion but not tried the micro...but, I would swap for one for sure. Neat little rig!

I used the re-direct off my harness like someone mentioned above. With the mini on my waist, redirected through a top ascender with a pulley, I can ascend a flat smooth wall without a foot stirrup. Huge advantage.

Having a mini with a DMM revolver is pretty sweet, even if your top ascender is a Prusik.

Just curious, does anyone know what the efficiency is on the revolver's pulley wheel?

[Brian in SLC]

Saw this posted somewhere:

Oval Carabiner 65%
Revolver 75%
Blue Pulley 85%
Burly Rescue Pulley 90%

What I like about the Revolver, is, it gives me a smooth rope pull as well as more throw in my ascending system. Compact and a bit more efficient than just using a carabiner.

[Mountaineer]

My favorite tool. It goes with me every time I venture out. Had to use it one time as a PCD to get out, and avoid hypothermia if we continued through a canyon. Love it.

[Bootboy]

I was just cruising CanyoneeringUSA and read the blurb describing the Petzl micro-traxion for use, among other things, as "fantastic for a canyoneering style ascending system." That was my thought too in conjunction with my tibloc. I brought these items with me over the summer when I did a self-rescue day of training with Zeke Federman of Sierra Rock Climbing School. In an ascending set up, the micro-traxion worked like a dream and it is light and of course it can also be used for hauling. Zeke was a bit concerned about the micro-traxion. His principle concern was stressing the devise to the point of failure. Should that occur, one would be left with a single point of rope attachment being the tibloc (or other ascending devise that you might be using in your system). He was concerned that another point of rope attachment (i.e. a third point of attachment) was needed to make the system safe. I take his point but I thought I would put the question to the canyoneering dirt bags and engineering propeller heads that contribute to this forum to see what others think about this concern. I think the two points (tibloc and micro traxion would be fine for say a 20 foot pull up something but perhaps the point is relevant if one is going ascend 200 ft of rope. Any thoughts on the issue?

Ken

P.S. I am loving Todd Martin's Grand Caynoneering-pure canyoneering porn. Just an amazing guide book!:nod:

You can be "concerned" all you want and you can always find something to fret about. If you over think it all too much you'll end up being better off staying home and wearing a helmet to get the mail

The instructor sounds like he comes from a rescue and rope access background. It also sounds like he wanted to act like he was smarter and more safety conscious than you. True, in rescue it is the golden rule to have a main and a safety, for ropes and their respective attachments to them. In rope access, it is customary to have 2 points while ascending, and add a 3rd for change overs so that when one attachment is removed, you still have 2 points. But for self rescue in a canyoneering situation i.e.: simply ascending the rope, it's hard to imagine a scenario in which you'd stress a device enough to cause failure. At a point it becomes overly redundant and complicated.

If I were doing a raise of a rescue load, an extra prussik would be prudent, or just run a tandem prussik system. But then you've made the 9mm polyester rope the weak point in all of this, carry and extra rope, and the two bolt anchor becomes the crux of the problem, and you'll need to find the next weak link and so on, K.I.S.S.

I guess what I'm saying is, for self rescue and ascending, I'd not bother with a 3rd attachment. A micro traxion an a tibloc is sufficient if used competently. If hauling a rescue load, I'd go with a backup or a TPB.

Don't make it more complicated than it has to be.

[dweaver2130]

How do you measure your foot loop that connects to your top ascender? I use an 8' doubled over when connecting to a lower ascender. Would 12' tied and doubled be ideal?

[hank moon]

deleted

[ratagonia]

How do you measure your foot loop that connects to your top ascender? I use an 8' doubled over when connecting to a lower ascender. Would 12' tied and doubled be ideal?

There are a lot of different set ups that people use.

Personally, what I use is:

Top: 2-1/2 over the shoulder slings (=5')
Bottom: none

But let me transform your question into "how do you figure out the right length for the upper foot loop and leash?"

The Leash is easier, so let's do that first -

- when you hang from the leash, you should be able to reach the handle with some bend left in you elbow. Your arm muscles work much better when you start with some bend in your arm, so don't let that leash be too long.

- the footloop is constrained in much the same way. If the loop is too short, then the bend in your leg will be too sharp and too difficult. As a guideline, your thigh should be level, your knee and hip at 90 degrees, when you start standing up. If the footloop is too long, then your stroke will be too short, and you'll be doing a lot of motion without moving UP a lot.

The lengths change a bit with the angle of the ascent. And sometimes with how strong you are feeling that day. And also in how long the ascent is - it is important to get the lengths right on a long ascent, but on a short one, you can probably just muscle through.

Tom

[reflection]

Distance for footloop? It's a curiosity, folk talking about their ascending style and manner; communicating it and then relaying it to others. I accept and believe that a number of posters have experience and skill in getting up a line. A catch at the waist, a handled ascender with a foot loop; and or a pulley/system so the rope re-directs back through the pulley and then down. How it al fits together, well?

If one is using the frog or modified frog. Stand on the ground, connected to a taut rope. The waist "catch device" is going to set directly below the " ascender" which is attached to the foot loop. If these two are right on top of each other and the waist device is "tight" the first "reach up ascent" will lift the leg and the arm will swing so that it is almost bent.

In the field I carry a metolious foot loop - packaged in a small pounch. The loop can "arguably" be set for anyone's height, and in the field if I'm showing someone how to get up a line, one being short or tall, can find an "approximate" loop that will likely work for them. Also, when going up and over a lip, one can remove the foot and climb on a higher rung.

There are adjustable foot loops and other devices and methods - another day for this discussion - and there are other nuanced methods for longer or more sustained climbs. Different methods and cultures in climbing, caving and canyons.

Something light, easy, safe and efficient is the ticket - for general cyn travel; but proper "set up", mentoring and practice is almost a necessity if one is going to charge up a line without total exhaustion; and getting over lips, well, I'd get options dialed up before you jump into this pandoras box. Many people on this site, Tom, Hank, Brian, and others obviously, could show folk how to set up and then safely get up a line.

[dweaver2130]

So we ended up getting two 60cm slings and an aider. I figured we could try both and see which we liked. I kind of like the aider since I can use it in a pothole and have the same exact tool in my pack for ascending and that tool will work for both my or Anna (signifiant height difference). We had planned to head out today and mess around with this stuff, but there is this weird stuff falling from the sky here, and the Phoenix weather people are cautioning people to not go out for fear of melting in the phenomenon. So we will have to wait until next week. Thank everyone for their suggestions.