Winter Pothole Practice?

[burley]

This may be a tough request, but a friend and I are planning on heading out this weekend and would like to do a canyon or two that would give us some pothole escape practice as we get ready for Imlay. We've both done a fair number and good mix of canyons, but not much as far as keepers.

I've seen quite a few posts on good pothole canyons to start with, but didn't know how that might change in the winter (daylight, temepratures, icy slopes etc). We had been considering Quandary with an early start but only have one drysuit between us and didn't know a place besides Zion to rent another. Anyone recommend for or against Quandary? How much neo would be needed at this time of year?

Alternatively, we'd love suggestions for other fun wet canyons to do in the winter, along the lines of Pine Creek and Black Hole (done both in frozen conditions).

Thoughts and suggestions?

[dweaver2130]

After reading the story's on toms page I would worry about quandary in winter as hypothermia in the potholes was a concern in summer and fall. We just came back from north wash and everything was dry so the pots might be very low making things really hard. I don't know for sure, but I would not take the risk. The wife and I have been working out pot hole problems out on many of the bouldering routes here in Phoenix. They aren't smooth sandstone but at least it's a safe environment to practice techniques.

[Slot Machine]

... but but only have one drysuit between us ...

Thoughts and suggestions?

Two people can't fit into one drysuit. Consider purchasing a second one. (JOKING, JOKING) :lol8:

I'm curious, how do you picture this working with just one drysuit? (Frantic silent movie style piano music is playing in my mind as I picture two dudes taking turns with a drysuit.) :mrgreen:

As far as being helpful, maybe Headless Hen would be good right now. Although, since it is not an enclosed canyon, it might be frozen solid. The Squeeze might also be fun, but might be kind of dry right now. :ne_nau: The Black Hole doesn't have any pothole escapes, but would be good cold water practice.

[rockgremlin]

Dude....Quandary at this time of year will be colder than a well digger's arse. It's likely that the potholes there are frozen over. If the potholes are frozen over you likely wouldn't be doing any keeper escapes -- just walking over to the other side and climbing out. If they're not frozen over or you happen to break through the ice it would be prudent to go equipped with a 5mm full wetsuit at the very least. A good drysuit would work too. The Squeeze has good keepers but the approach/exit hike is quite a bit longer than Quandary, and you need all of the daylight you can get at this time of year where sunlight is shortened. I believe Knotted Rope also has at least 1 keeper, but I think it's bypassable.

The Squeeze doesn't have any keepers - just longer swims. Anyhoo, good luck whichever route you choose, and TR us when you return.

[Iceaxe]

Winter conditions are NOT the time to "practice" or learn techniques in a canyon.


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[PG Rob]

What portions of the pothole escape, or which types of techniques are you wanting to practice?

The portions that you can practice are partner assists, tossing potshots, ascending a rope (with equipment or hand over hand) and hooking out. Any of these techniques can be practiced out of canyon. You surely aren't going to practice drilling out of one.

I suspect what you really want is more familiarity to boost your confidence. If that is the case, It does not matter if the potholes are dry or wet. Treat them all as if they were in the worst possible condition to "practice". Go somewhere that you know is dry, where you can't get into too much trouble; or practice the techniques in the safety of your yard or a climbing gym.

If what you are looking for is a wet winter pothole adventure, there are also plenty of options.

[burley]

Thanks for the thoughts so far.


I suspect what you really want is more familiarity to boost your confidence. If that is the case...It does not matter if the potholes are dry or wet. Treat them all as if they were in the worst possible condition to "practice". Go somewhere that you know is dry

That Sounds like good advice. Any suggestions for canyons that would have dry keeper potholes right now?

[MSchasch]

As far as being helpful, maybe Headless Hen would be good right now. Although, since it is not an enclosed canyon, it might be frozen solid. The Squeeze might also be fun, but might be kind of dry right now. :ne_nau: The Black Hole doesn't have any pothole escapes, but would be good cold water practice.

I strongly disagree with this idea. The very short committing portion of HH is MUCH more technical, challenging, and just different from Imlay. Even during normal seasons this canyon has a pothole at the end that can be extremely challenging for even the most competent parties.


Imlay is kind of strange. Using hook holes is common practice and is most definitely not the norm on the CO plateau.

[moab mark]

Try Dragon Fly in Moab. Go up instead of down. Might be froze right now due to how cold Moab has been. There are about 3 or 4 in a row that are simple to get to.

[Iceaxe]

Imlay is kind of strange. Using hook holes is common practice and is most definitely not the norm on the CO plateau.

^^^THIS^^^

I don't think any of the canyons mentioned really help with Imlay, outside of perhaps gaining general canyoneering experience.

Climbing at your local crag using hooks would probably be more beneficial practice.


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[rockgremlin]

Try Dragon Fly in Moab. Go up instead of down.


HUH?! Really the only slot in that canyon is at the very beginning, and there aren't any keepers in it. There are two rappels - one mid-way through which is about 40 feet, and one at the end which is about 80 feet...I could be wrong on those lengths, but not by very much. Neither of those rappels are amenable to keeper practice techniques. Maybe for ascending on fixed ropes, but that's about it.

If ya want keeper practice go somewhere that has keeper potholes, with someone who has keeper experience, during the warmer months. Those are optimal conditions, and you likely won't end up like those two poor BYU students who died in Choprock trying to defeat a logjam obstacle in 40 degree water with only shorty wetsuits. :cold:

Best to err on the side of safety.

[ratagonia]

Two people can't fit into one drysuit. Consider purchasing a second one. (JOKING, JOKING) :lol8:

I'm curious, how do you picture this working with just one drysuit? (Frantic silent movie style piano music is playing in my mind as I picture two dudes taking turns with a drysuit.) :mrgreen:

As far as being helpful, maybe Headless Hen would be good right now. Although, since it is not an enclosed canyon, it might be frozen solid. The Squeeze might also be fun, but might be kind of dry right now. :ne_nau: The Black Hole doesn't have any pothole escapes, but would be good cold water practice.

Slot -

Have you been through Headless Hen?

Not a good choice right now.

Tom

[moab mark]

HUH?! Really the only slot in that canyon is at the very beginning, and there aren't any keepers in it. There are two rappels - one mid-way through which is about 40 feet, and one at the end which is about 80 feet...I could be wrong on those lengths, but not by very much. Neither of those rappels are amenable to keeper practice techniques. Maybe for ascending on fixed ropes, but that's about it.

If ya want keeper practice go somewhere that has keeper potholes, with someone who has keeper experience, during the warmer months. Those are optimal conditions, and you likely won't end up like those two poor BYU students who died in Choprock trying to defeat a logjam obstacle in 40 degree water with only shorty wetsuits. :cold:

Best to err on the side of safety.

There right before the first rappel.

[moab mark]

Didn't you swim them at the moabfest? When Prego and I rapped in right after them?

[rockgremlin]

Didn't you swim them at the moabfest? When Prego and I rapped in right after them?

I've swam that pothole 3 times, but I wouldn't classify it as a "keeper" pothole. My definition of keeper pothole is one that requires some kind of rigging and/or partner assist to get out of it. That first pothole just b4 the first rap isn't a keeper pothole -- it just requires swimming to the other side and walking out. It has no keeper characteristics IMO.

[moab mark]

There not massive but turn around and go back up would be reasonably difficult I would think.

[Slot Machine]

I strongly disagree with this idea. The very short committing portion of HH is MUCH more technical, challenging, and just different from Imlay. Even during normal seasons this canyon has a pothole at the end that can be extremely challenging for even the most competent parties.

From what I've seen (but not done), I thought HH looked fairly tame. That being said, it looks like I've overstepped my bounds. :oops: Please ignore my misguided advice on this thread.

[Cr8on]

Maybe check out Hogwarts, it sounds like you want something a bit more technical though...

[Slot Machine]

Maybe check out Hogwarts, it sounds like you want something a bit more technical though...

:lol8:

[burley]

Maybe check out Hogwarts, it sounds like you want something a bit more technical though...

Yeah we were actually leaning towards doing that, at least it gives us something to play around with.

[Slot Machine]

Yeah we were actually leaning towards doing that, at least it gives us something to play around with.

Huh, not what I expected you to say, but certainly a safe place to practice.

To spice it up a little, I might try to set a guided rappel across the pothole on Rap #1 using Potshots. Trying to keep your feet dry would make that drop a little more challenging. The geometry on the exit side of the pothole is kind of unfavorable, so it might acturally be a kind of tough... :hmm2:

[burley]

Huh, not what I expected you to say, but certainly a safe place to practice.


Yeah, it's not what we were hoping for, but it seems likely the other options suggested (Dragonfly, Quandary, HH) are likely frozen over or more difficult than we were looking for. That fact, and trying to fit the both of us into that one drysuit, make the North Wash area more appealing :haha:

We can always "practice" more seriously later. Unless of course someone suggests a tempting canyon...

[ratagonia]

Well, here's another possibility. Perhaps the Trou Blanc would be a good choice, or the Fleurs Jaunes -


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brNfvJkcLWg


and you probably would not notice that there was not much pothole escape practice involved...

Tom

[burley]

Well, here's another possibility. Perhaps the Trou Blanc would be a good choice, or the Fleurs Jaunes -
Tom

Well I know where we are going now! I just hope the trip comes with the same theme music...

[penmartens]

If you are going to the NW area, I would suggest Woody for its potholes. They may be wet or frozen or dry. They aren't too committing. It is a fairly sunny canyon and it is pretty short.
You could also try escaping the up canyon side of some of the potholes for more challenges.

Penny

[SRG]

I would suggest Woody for its potholes. They may be wet or frozen or dry. They aren't too committing.

I have always wondered about Woody. I think I recall the Kelsey book saying something along the lines of "Woody canyon has a pothole that is impossible to escape under certain conditions"(paraphrase) which had me imagining all sorts of things.

-Sam

[ratagonia]

If you are going to the NW area, I would suggest Woody for its potholes. They may be wet or frozen or dry. They aren't too committing. It is a fairly sunny canyon and it is pretty short.
You could also try escaping the up canyon side of some of the potholes for more challenges.

Penny

I thought about that, but...

There are some sketchy climb-over sections, that would be way-sketchier with a little now or ice on em.

The so-called keeper pothole LOOKS scary, but I have never had any problem with it, in three tries.

Well, maybe it is just that I am a stick-in-the-mud kinda guy. You wanna practice/experience pothole escapes? Best to do that when it is warm, when the clock is not ticking, when hypothermia is not one-bad-decision away...

But that's just me!

Tom

[burley]

If you are going to the NW area, I would suggest Woody for its potholes.

Penny

Thanks Penny. Any Freezefesters go through Woody and care to share conditions?

[ilipichicuma]

From what I've seen (but not done), I thought HH looked fairly tame. That being said, it looks like I've overstepped my bounds. :oops: Please ignore my misguided advice on this thread.

Headless Hen has some of the most intense potholes I've ever seen. Plus, whenever I look at the weather conditions in canyon country on my iPod, the Escalante area is always the coldest. I'd guess that place is frozen solid right now. I also seem to recall some pretty steep slabs on the approach, which ice and snow would definitely complicate. Just for a little more info on that one.