Drysuits

[mzamp]

What is everyone's opinion on getting a drysuit with feet or no feet?

Also - relief zipper or don't bother?

and along the lines of the relief zipper - anyone familiar with the drop seat for women?

Thanks for any suggestions/advice.

-Zamp

[dweaver2130]

I just got a pair of used for my wife and myself. They both are foot-less and without a relief zipper or drop seat. Haven't taken them out yet, but we are both going to freeze-fest. I will let you know what we think.

[Iceaxe]

Don't get feet as that is a place you will get holes.

I don't have a relief zipper in my dry suit. Its not a big deal, I just unzip the suit and slip it down one shoulder.... easy...

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[mzamp]

The guy I know at the local shop who teaches their canyoneering class and guides likes the feet since it keeps them warm. He uses the rental drysuits in the shop all of which have the feet. But yes, getting holes at the feet is a concern.

Any other opinions or first hand experience with the footed ones?

[Iceaxe]

FWIW- I have never met a serious CP canyoneer that has feet in their dry suit, and I have pretty much done canyons with all of them.... that should tell you something.

Relief zippers are split about 50/50.

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[mzamp]

Thanks IceAxe...Maybe I will have Kokatat make me a custom one with both the gasket and feet. That way once they get holes I will just cut them off. :haha:

[moab mark]

I do not have a dry suit but my fishing waders sure work well and I get a lot of pebbles in the shoes when fishing. I Have never got a hole in them, if I bought one I would get feet. I would think you would get a hole in the suit long before the feet. I would definitely look into a pair of coveralls like zacs give you when they rent their suits.
There kind of heavy and a pain but there tough.
Mark

[Iceaxe]

When its really cold icy water its not my feet that become an issue.... its my hands....


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[Brian in SLC]

Feet are an issue, but, you can compensate.

ARS, who you've canyoned with Ice, has a dry suit with feet attached but its a cold water diving suit (which he's used for canyoning very rarely, I seem to dimly recall).

I thought about the foot thing when I bought mine. Easy enough to punch a hole if you get a piece of gravel in a shoe. Shave your leg, warm hiking sock covered by a waterproof sock, tape it to your leg, pull the gasket on the dry suit down over your sock, add a neoprene sock over that to protect the waterproof sock, voila. Even if your feet don't stay totally dry (I use an antiperspirant on my feet, prescription strength, to keep them from sweating), they should stay warm enough.

Yeah, hands get c-c-c-cold.

No pee zip for me either. Easy enough to pull the suit down.

[2065toyota]

http://www.kokatat.com/products/dry-suits/t3-swift-entry-dry-suit-men.html

Does anybody have any experience or know if these suits are any good? I was looking at buying a used one of these. Thanks in advance

[Brian in SLC]

Mines a Kokatat but with goretex. Very good suit. I like that when I forgot to zip it up, and, on the first pothole I swam water got in, that it was dry in a couple of hours.

Highly recommend protecting the gaskets from ozone with that aerospace stuff.

Also, if you get one and need to adjust the neck, recommend a coffee can or similar and let it stretch on that for a few days rather than cutting it.

[Iceaxe]

ARS, who you've canyoned with Ice, has a dry suit with feet attached but its a cold water diving suit (which he's used for canyoning very rarely, I seem to dimly recall).

Yeah, I remember that trip. That suit of his weighted a ton as it also had some type of fleece lining. His suit did look nice and warm, but no one would buy a suit like the one he used as a canyoneering dry suit.

Bill Bees used to use a fleece sock, covered with a gortex sock, covered with a neoprene sock. The gortex sock tucked inside the leg gasket and the neoprene sock went over.

I never tried that setup but he swore by it when things were really cold.

[Iceaxe]

http://www.kokatat.com/products/dry-suits/t3-swift-entry-dry-suit-men.html

Does anybody have any experience or know if these suits are any good? I was looking at buying a used one of these. Thanks in advance

That is the dry suit I have and it works just great. Goretex is better but twice the cost. I really only use my dry suit once or twice a year. Sweating is not a big problem I just crack the zipper if I have a long walk between sections of water and the suit breathes good enough.

FYI: I keep my wetsuit inside a rubber drybag with the air removed to combat the OZ on rubber gasket problem. The suit is over 10 years old and the gaskets still look new.

[mzamp]

Does anyone have experience with using the footed dry suits or is it just assumed that the feet will get holes? If the rental drysuit feet are holding up (and rentals get beat to he$$) I would guess my personal one would hold up just fine. Especially if I am not a wimp and switch back to my wetsuit as soon as it is warranted.

[ratagonia]

In a wetsuit, yesterday's Black Hole, I went with light wool sock, then Sealskinz waterproof sock, then 5mm Argos Sock (in Canyoneers with the footbed removed - still a bit tight). Worked like a charm. Feet weren't warm, but they were definitely not cold ever, all day.

A tight wetsuit at the cuff held the Sealskinz seal well against my skin.

Canyoneering can involve hiking long distances in the suit. Ankle seals have always worked well for me. Shaving helps. I put the Sealskinz over the gasket when we did Imlay in February - worked well. Under the gasket seems like it would not be 100% smooth, would provide wrinkles for water to find its way inside.

YMMV.

High maintenance. I think dry suits are great, when someone else is doing the maintenance.

Tom

[ratagonia]

Does anyone have experience with using the footed dry suits or is it just assumed that the feet will get holes? If the rental drysuit feet are holding up (and rentals get beat to he$$) I would guess my personal one would hold up just fine. Especially if I am not a wimp and switch back to my wetsuit as soon as it is warranted.

Rental drysuit w feet - for what? Kayaking is not canyoneering. Rafting is not canyoneering. Diving is not canyoneering.

Tom

[mzamp]

Rental drysuit w feet - for what? Kayaking is not canyoneering. Rafting is not canyoneering. Diving is not canyoneering.

Tom


I wouldn't have posted on here if I was wanting a drysuit for kayaking. I may not have your wealth of experience, but I am experience. I'm sorry, but sometimes you guys can come accross a bit condescending.

Yes, they are renting out the drysuits (with the feet) to canyoneers. I am going to stop into the store today and talk to the guy that does the repairs on them and get more details.

It doesn't sound like anybody has tried the footed ones or maybe they have but are too intimidated to post.

[Iceaxe]

I may not have your wealth of experience, but I am experience. I'm sorry, but sometimes you guys can come accross a bit condescending.


Sometimes we can be condescending... but in this case you asked a question involving our wealth of experience. We have tried to tell you in a nice way, based on our wealth of experience, that we believe only a dumbass would buy feet in a dry suit used for canyoneering.

You have not been happy with the answers we have given you and want someone with experience to tell you feet are a good idea... good luck with that.... I'm sure if you look hard enough you will find someone to endorse feet in a canyon dry suit. I hope it works out for you.

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[mzamp]

I don't think my friend who owns the store or his guide are dumbasses and value their wealth of experience as well as yours and Tom's. I originally talked to them before Christmas and they had me sold on the footed ones. But the anal person I am, I decided to get the opionion of this forum. Sorry if I kept probing for more details or the hopes others would chime in.

[Iceaxe]

Just curious... who is the guide service? Where do they guide?

To the best of my knowledge all the Zion guides do not have feet in there suits, which should be anther red flag for you.

As I said... you are not going to be happy until we say feet are a good idea. I think they are a bad idea for a number of reasons... but what do I know...

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[ratagonia]

I don't think my friend who owns the store or his guide are dumbasses and value their wealth of experience as well as yours and Tom's. I originally talked to them before Christmas and they had me sold on the footed ones. But the anal person I am, I decided to get the opionion of this forum. Sorry if I kept probing for more details or the hopes others would chime in.

And it may be different in Arizona, where the canyons are not chock full of sand.

Here in Utah, sand gets into the shoes, walking rubs it all back and forth, eventually chewing up the feet.

But really, that has been the "common knowledge" up here, and I am not sure I know anyone who has tried the latex feet for canyoneering. For me, personally, it is out of the question. I have wide feet with developing neuromas, and ANY squeezing of the feet is very uncomfortable; so I need control over what is around my feet. If my drysuit had latex feet, I would then be obliged to see it as it is.

I have never heard of a shop renting drysuits primarily for Canyoneering. Even ZAC, in Zion, rents them primarily for winter walking up the Narrows, and they are hard enough (and expensive enough) to maintain for that low-abrasion rental market. ZAC rents drysuits to canyoneers as a courtesy, not as a business proposition. If it was done as a business proposition, they would rent for about 50% more, given the maintenance required after people use them in Imlay and Heaps.

Kayaking, rafting, etc. are much, much easier on drysuits, and especially on the feet.

Please, assume good faith.

Tom :moses:

[goindeep]

a little off topic, dont mean to hijack the thread, but how well do the drysuits hold up to tears? I have never used one as I live in southern California and the water here is never that cold, but I am looking at doing some trips to colder places and am interested in the dry suits

[Brian in SLC]

Mine handles tears pretty well, but, I will use a hanky to dry my eyes too, which helps. I try to avoid getting too emotional especially after cutting onions.

Ha ha.

I added a bunch of freesole to the high wear areas (butt, knees and elbows). Knock on wood. They aren't near as hap hazard to ramble around in as a thick wetsuit, to be sure. I'm careful in mine. A wetsuit? Nots a big a deal if it gets scuffed up or a hole in it.

[moabmatt]

We have tried to tell you in a nice way, based on our wealth of experience, that we believe only a dumbass would buy feet in a dry suit used for canyoneering.

HaHa! I love it. On this note, I do use suits with feet for a variety of activities, including canyoneering. Shane, you advise against booties since they'll get holes in them. With this logic you might as well advise against drysuits period since I guarantee they'll get a hole in them in places other than your feet. True - all things being equal - booties do tend to get holes sooner than other parts of the suit, but if a person is careful with their suit and/or willing to repair it frequently then booties are very nice.

A dumbass isn't one who uses a suit with booties, but one who hikes long approaches to canyons Sally-style with the upper part of their suit pulled down to their waist with arms tied off. I've seen it. Yeah, you'll wear a hole quick this way. Keep the suit in the pack until it's really needed. Oftentimes the watery portion of a hike is short enough where you aren't likely to put on enough miles to wear a hole in the suit. I have worn holes in my suit and had to deal with wet feet for the remainder of the hike, but it hasn't deterred me from using booties. A tube of Aquaseal makes easy repair work of holes, though it does take a while to fully cure (depending on the temps) so field repairs in the midst of a long multi-day trip can be problematic.

I should note, however, that I also have a suit with latex ankles and if I know there is going to be a lot of mandatory hiking in the suit, I'll wear that one. This is one of the luxuries of being a guide - we have lots of gear to select from. But if I can get away with a suit with booties, I'll choose that one every time.

As for the relief zipper, it can be worth its weight in gold. Maybe not so much in a Utah canyon with lots of dry ground between pools, but in a class C canyon with lots of spray, knee-deep moving water, while wearing a pack, a PFD, a helmet, a harness...simply pulling your drysuit down to take a leak isn't simple or enjoyable. Regardless of whether you get booties or not, you won't be sorry paying a few bucks more for a relief zipper.

Drysuit booties are great, but you've got to be reasonable with them. They're not ideal for canyons where you must wear them on long sections of sandy/gravelly hiking. Otherwise, they're great!

[goindeep]

Mine handles tears pretty well, but, I will use a hanky to dry my eyes too, which helps. I try to avoid getting too emotional especially after cutting onions.

Ha ha.

I added a bunch of freesole to the high wear areas (butt, knees and elbows). Knock on wood. They aren't near as hap hazard to ramble around in as a thick wetsuit, to be sure. I'm careful in mine. A wetsuit? Nots a big a deal if it gets scuffed up or a hole in it.

it seems like if a dry suit got a tear it would defeat the whole drysuit concept because water would leak in... I have no experience with drysuits so please enlighten me. I saw a mention of resealing with aquaseal, but that not working to well out in the field because it takes to long to set. So my question is, before I spend money on a drysuit, how durable are they? and if they tear, is aquaseal an adequate repair?

[dweaver2130]

Ok after doing the Black hole I totally agree with the no feet crowd. I totally believe that footies would have ended up like swiss cheese. My feet stayed fairly warm in sealskins and wool socks. Next year I will also add the 5mm Neo sock.

[Brian in SLC]

So my question is, before I spend money on a drysuit, how durable are they? and if they tear, is aquaseal an adequate repair?

They are way way way less durable than a wetsuit. Kinda fragile. Not durable.

Dunno if aquaseal works for a repair. My opinion, if you need a drysuit because its super cold, and, you get a hole in it, you're pretty screwed. There's really not much in the way of field repairs that would be durable enough to be trusted, methinks.

Haven't done it on a dry suit, but, I've found heating a knife blade with a lighter and scraping off the glue on duct tape can kinda work ok for some field repairs. Might work for a pin hole in a drysuit. Maybe.

Home repairs, with time, yeah, maybe. The shops like ZAC and Zion Rock rent them, so, they probably have repairing them fairly dialed. There'd be two kinds of repairs: gaskets and fabric.

[dweaver2130]

When we bought our suits, one required extensive repairs to make it usable. Those repairs being "aqua seal" on the holes in the fabric and along some of the seals. After working on them at home they worked great in the field.

I say "aqua seal" because since it is so expensive I went on a long search to find a cheaper alternative. After calling and talking chemistry with several manufacturers I found a cheap alternative. The waterproof GOOP outdoor adhesive is chemically the same as aqua seal and worked for all of our repairs. Cost difference was $3.99 for 4 oz of GOOP vs $5.99 for 0.8 oz of aqua seal.

Jeff Guest jman has a great video on gasket repair on youtube here is the link.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLyTzCofxPY

Sorry jman if I offend by using your video*

As far as field repairs go I am not sure yet. I have found a version of aqua seal that sets upon exposure to UV light. The set time is supposed to be seconds though the local dive shop says full strength in 15 minutes. Don't know how well it works but there is a tube in my pack along some tenacious tape.

Here is the link to McNett's page about the UV aquaseal

http://www.mcnett.com/Aquaseal-UV-Ultraviolet-Cure-Adhesive-P272.aspx

[tcott]

As far as field repairs go I am not sure yet. I have found a version of aqua seal that sets upon exposure to UV light. The set time is supposed to be seconds though the local dive shop says full strength in 15 minutes. Don't know how well it works but there is a tube in my pack along some tenacious tape.

Here is the link to McNett's page about the UV aquaseal

http://www.mcnett.com/Aquaseal-UV-Ultraviolet-Cure-Adhesive-P272.aspx

Mcnett's directions say:
PREP: Apply to clean, dry surfaces. Clean surfaces with isopropyl alcohol to remove surface residue. Roughen smooth surfaces with sandpaper.

Curious how this will be accomplished mid-canyon. :lol8: On that note, I'm kind of anti-drysuit for canyoneering. A good semi-dry wetsuit has kept me warm enough in every canyon I've ever been in.

[dweaver2130]

Mcnett's directions say:
PREP: Apply to clean, dry surfaces. Clean surfaces with isopropyl alcohol to remove surface residue. Roughen smooth surfaces with sandpaper.

Curious how this will be accomplished mid-canyon. :lol8: On that note, I'm kind of anti-drysuit for canyoneering. A good semi-dry wetsuit has kept me warm enough in every canyon I've ever been in.


I think without the prep it would be ok, at least to get you to the end of the canyon. i have had to make repairs to my logger boots when on the fire line before without the ability to prep and they help to get me back to camp.

[jman]

No worries - thanks DWeaver. Jeff doesn't mind the community using and sharing his videos.

[wnorton]

I have owned many dry suits over the years. My opinion is yes to feet. Yes to relief zipper. No to female drop flap but instead introduce your female companions to the funnel device. Off the top of my mind I don't recall the actual name.

W


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wnorton @ Southern, UT

[wnorton]

I have owned many dry suits over the years. My opinion is yes to feet. Yes to relief zipper. No to female drop flap but instead introduce your female companions to the funnel device. Off the top of my mind I don't recall the actual name.

W


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wnorton @ Southern, UT

"Go-girl" or "magic cone"



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wnorton @ Southern, UT

[Brian in SLC]

Lady J. Seen a few in action. "Hey, could you hold my gloves for a second?"

[goindeep]

I have owned many dry suits over the years. My opinion is yes to feet. Yes to relief zipper. No to female drop flap but instead introduce your female companions to the funnel device. Off the top of my mind I don't recall the actual name.

W


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wnorton @ Southern, UT

Does it work very well?! may have to get one for my fiance! haha

[wnorton]

Can't say. I have never needed one, but I know many folks that have. Let me also say, my wife has a "men's" relief zipper on one of her drysuits. It allows access to use the item.



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wnorton @ Southern, UT

[Brian in SLC]

I've climbed with female partners who carry their lady J attached to their harness for convenient deployment.

Some friends hiked in to climb a big peak in South America. There's a classic photo of the three of them, two men and a woman, all peeing whilst standing up with their backs to the camera. Hilarious.

[Felicia]

Expensive, but worth every penny:

http://www.freshette.com/

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B008PGO0R0

Felicia

[Mountaineer]

I have a dry suit for scuba diving (with the feet). I have also done a lot of canyons with wet suits. Never done a canyon, yet, with a dry suit.

However, I don't think I would ever use it "with the feet". And my reason may differ from others, but the boots on my DUI suit are too bulky and not designed for the rigors of a canyon. I need good, reliable shoes that I'm comfortable with, to get me across the tough spots. My life depends on it.

[wnorton]

Expensive, but worth every penny:

http://www.freshette.com/

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B008PGO0R0

Felicia

Freshette. That's the name. I think at the time my partner needed one that was the only option. Looks as if there are many choices now. M


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wnorton @ Southern, UT

[goindeep]

I've climbed with female partners who carry their lady J attached to their harness for convenient deployment.

Some friends hiked in to climb a big peak in South America. There's a classic photo of the three of them, two men and a woman, all peeing whilst standing up with their backs to the camera. Hilarious.

haha thats great