Walker Gulch into Orderville [Archive] - Bogley Outdoor Community

Iceaxe

01-28-2013, 09:37 AM

Walker Gulch - Zion NP
(The A-team calls this "Bicycle Canyon" to hide it from the rest of the world.)

Canyon Rating: 3A II (exiting up Orderville)
Car Shuttle required: Yes
Rope requirements: 2 - 60 Meter ropes

Longest rappel is 150'. The canyon contains a nice (short) section of narrows and a strangely placed bicycle. No bolts in the canyon but natural anchors are plentiful and obvious.

Hiking up Orderville requires several hours and is brutal on a hot day. Hiking down Orderville is longer, more fun, comes with a long car shuttle.

Enjoy :popcorn:

Iceaxe

01-28-2013, 10:00 AM

PS: when someone is ready to do this canyon ping me sideband and I have a deal for you if you want it.

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

jman

01-29-2013, 12:24 AM

You find anything out on this yet?

I got surprisingly about 5 PMs about it with the Show N Don't Tell contract. Something I don't agree with, especially on BLM land. I "understand" why they say that, but I respectfully disagree with it. Anywho, lots of Google Earth and topos searching and I was able to map out a trail, and guessed on rappel lengths (with some elevation tools) with the tallest at about 180ft at the tallest.

I appreciate all the PMs; but now I can add some variation to Orderville without the blood oath, publicly, that is. There are 2 "potential" more variations (gulch, canyons, etc.) to Orderville that I have also found, but in due time they will come once I get to the drainages.

But this Spring we will get the Get O.U.T. video crew in there and film from start to finish so you guys can check it out as well.

Sombeech

01-30-2013, 04:54 PM

I got surprisingly about 5 PMs about it with the Show N Don't Tell contract. Something I don't agree with, especially on BLM land.
Unfortunately for them, somebody WILL eventually do this route and post it up, then the reactive parties will have a mess to clean up.

If you support "show don't tell" for this route, go ahead and feel free to discuss it here. Who knows, you may even prevent some damage by those who will inevitably do this canyon and publish it.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

dweaver2130

01-30-2013, 05:34 PM

I'm a fan of show don't tell! Would love to do some show don't tell canyons....

Slot Machine

01-31-2013, 10:55 AM

But this Spring we will get the Get O.U.T. video crew in there and film from start to finish so you guys can check it out as well.

Have you talked to Kip (@BW123 (http://www.bogley.com/forum/member.php?u=21246) )? He knows that particular area better than anyone. And he is super cool. FWIW, I'll carry a rope if you want/need another person on your adventure. :mrgreen:

Unfortunately for them, somebody WILL eventually do this route and post it up, then the reactive parties will have a mess to clean up.

This seems a little trollish, but I'll bite. What is a reactive party? What mess will they clean up?

Who knows, you may even prevent some damage by those who will inevitably do this canyon and publish it.

It only takes one person to shift the continuum from "secret" to "published". Keeping things under wraps requires a legion of canyoneers that think alike. Publishing only requires one independent canyoneer with a keyboard.

The more people talk about an unpublished canyon, the more the continuum shifts towards published. In this case, jman and Ice are interested. Game over.

Iceaxe

01-31-2013, 11:43 AM

It only takes one person to shift the continuum from "secret" to "published". Keeping things under wraps requires a legion of canyoneers that think alike.

This always reminds me of how the FBI breaks the mafia.... you just have to get one person to talk and the whole system crumbles. In addition, the first person to talk always gets the best deal.

There are plenty of canyoneers that will swap beta on one secret canyon for anther. The only way three people can keep a secret is if two of them are dead.

Sombeech

01-31-2013, 03:15 PM

This seems a little trollish, but I'll bite. What is a reactive party? What mess will they clean up?

No troll intended, i was just pointing out that if some noob like me stumbled upon this canyon, documented the hell out of it and thought i was providing a cool route to the community.... Feedback to follow, thanking for the info, asking questions and such.... And then the show don't tell peeps request to take the trip report down after everybody had seen it and enjoyed the data provided, it would turn into a mess to either delete and provide an explanation why, with criticism and attacks.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

2065toyota

01-31-2013, 03:32 PM

Deathcricket

01-31-2013, 06:01 PM

Naw I think "they" have all given up and crawled back into whatever hole they came from. Or seen the futility of their ways and gave up.

Slot Machine

01-31-2013, 07:17 PM

No troll intended, i was just pointing out that if some noob like me stumbled upon this canyon, documented the hell out of it and thought i was providing a cool route to the community.... Feedback to follow, thanking for the info, asking questions and such.... And then the show don't tell peeps request to take the trip report down after everybody had seen it and enjoyed the data provided, it would turn into a mess to either delete and provide an explanation why, with criticism and attacks.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

If you did share a cool new route, and people got upset, then screw them. You are just sharing an experience in the outdoors. What is a more pure form of human interaction than sharing a great experience? And a simple experience at that- hiking. Does it get any more simple than hiking? Can we change the forum name 'canyoneering' to 'hiking with ropes' to simplify it a little?

(Heck, sharing adventures, and living vicariously through other's adventures are the main reasons I'm interested in this website.)

I don't care if peoples sphincters get all clenchy when I mention their favorite obscure holes in the ground. Nobody OWNS them. No human CREATED them. Anything I can see on Bing Maps is fair game to discuss. And that is damn near every canyon.

Censoring this superb website is a FAR, FAR, FAR worse than accidentally giving away details on some canyon. It compromises your cred personally and tarnishes the overall quality of the site. I hope you refrain from censorship in the future and just let the clenchy folks marinate in their clenchy-ness.

To be clear, I'm not harboring feelings about the Cherry Canyon thing. You and Kody had the best of intentions. I just view it as a cluster blunder that we all learned from. :haha:

BW123

01-31-2013, 09:43 PM

Have you talked to Kip (@BW123 (http://www.bogley.com/forum/member.php?u=21246) )? He knows that particular area better than anyone. And he is super cool. FWIW, I'll carry a rope if you want/need another person on your adventure. :mrgreen:

This seems a little trollish, but I'll bite. What is a reactive party? What mess will they clean up?

It only takes one person to shift the continuum from "secret" to "published". Keeping things under wraps requires a legion of canyoneers that think alike. Publishing only requires one independent canyoneer with a keyboard.

The more people talk about an unpublished canyon, the more the continuum shifts towards published. In this case, jman and Ice are interested. Game over.

Sorry, I heard my name; it's been a while since I've logged on. Walker is nice. It's not really similar to Birch Hollow in look; it does have some nice slanted narrows in the upper end and a great back-country feel. It has 3 raps all less than 150'.

Kip

RAM

02-01-2013, 08:13 AM

Have you talked to Kip (@BW123 (http://www.bogley.com/forum/member.php?u=21246) )? He knows that particular area better than anyone. And he is super cool. FWIW, I'll carry a rope if you want/need another person on your adventure. :mrgreen:

It only takes one person to shift the continuum from "secret" to "published". Keeping things under wraps requires a legion of canyoneers that think alike. Publishing only requires one independent canyoneer with a keyboard.

The more people talk about an unpublished canyon, the more the continuum shifts towards published. In this case, jman and Ice are interested. Game over.

This entire thread has had a "Us vs. Them" tone from the third post when Shane said "The A-team calls this "Bicycle Canyon" to hide it from the rest of the world." Actually the name came from here.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/message/5281

Then Shane provided the beta, which according to Kip Marshall, the first recorded descender recalls (approx 12 years ago), Shane asked for and was given about a decade ago. I have never known Kip to lie, but I can't confirm or deny as I was not there. I did the canyon a little over 10 years ago, with Kip the first time and a year or so later with Bucky. I was never asked to be on a "show don't tell" or any other restrictions about the canyon. Several of my friends took a tour of the place over the next several years. None report any restrictions asked of them.

I don't know Jman except that he is "always above me, looking down at me" and he made a flattering comment about Aaron's and my Mumbai story. He says quote "I got surprisingly about 5 PMs about it with the Show N Don't Tell contract. Something I don't agree with, especially on BLM land." This surprised me very much as I had never heard of any caveat on the beta. I e-mailed him asking that these fellows contact me so I could get to the bottom of this. I have not heard back from him. Perhaps I used the bogley e-mail feature wrong. It was the first time I tried it.

I sought out everyone I knew who had done the canyon and asked if they had made a PM or if they had had restrictions on themselves when they did the canyon. Most were not aware of the thread, some don't visit the blogs and none recalled restrictions. I am not saying some may have been placed on someone I am not aware of or that I know all the people that may have done the canyon, but I struck out on finding anyone and it was totally inconsistent with what everyone I know experienced. Perhaps Jman can convince these people who PM'd him to contact me (adkramoo@aol.com)

The canyon is named on the map. The access is easy to figure out and relatively easy to approach. The beta was there for the asking and no one did that I was aware of. One of the beta meisters has had the information for years. So I am quite disappointed by the divisive tone and wedge like comments. It's a shame
Ram

Iceaxe

02-01-2013, 08:47 AM

BW123

02-01-2013, 09:00 AM

Ram, you sure are inferring a lot.

Bottomline someone asked for the beta on the forum and I gave it to them, on the forum, including the aka and history of the aka.

What the rest of your novel was about I have no clue. The only wedges I ever see are those created by the secert decoder ring crowd.

YMMV

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

Shane, not to diminish your relevance but I think Ram was responding to various posts, not just yours. You, Somebeech, and Deathcricket (genius) are the only ones that seem to be getting your panties in a bunch. You should know as much as anyone, as my beta goes, all you have to do is ask.

Kip

Iceaxe

02-01-2013, 09:12 AM

Ram called me out by name in his post. I was responding to that.

The reason there is an us against them attitude is because every time someone posts a secret handshake canyon the mods at bogley receive a couple of emails asking us to remove the post because it was a secret.

As for you personally.... you have helped me with beta whenever I have asked, and I thank you for that.

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

Deathcricket

02-01-2013, 09:59 AM

Shane, not to diminish your relevance but I think Ram was responding to various posts, not just yours. You, Somebeech, and Deathcricket (genius) are the only ones that seem to be getting your panties in a bunch. You should know as much as anyone, as my beta goes, all you have to do is ask.

Kip

Oh some random guy mentioned me!

Dude you have 35 posts pretty much ALL starting arguments in mine or others threads, and ZERO trip reports sharing info with others. Hypocrite says what? I don't even need to own you, you just owned yourself, lol.

Next!

MSchasch

02-01-2013, 10:20 AM

Oh some random guy mentioned me!

Dude you have 35 posts pretty much ALL starting arguments in mine or others threads, and ZERO trip reports sharing info with others. Hypocrite says what? I don't even need to own you, you just owned yourself, lol.

Next!

LOL Kip has explored and shared a lot of zion canyons with people, maybe if you didn't act like such an ass?

Deathcricket

02-01-2013, 10:37 AM

LOL Kip has explored and shared a lot of zion canyons with people, maybe if you didn't act like such an ass?

He's probably gone back to the shadows, but if you see him, tell him to post some beta on a canyon or just ONE trip report and we'll talk. Too Wet maybe? :lol8:

Scott P

02-01-2013, 10:49 AM

He's probably gone back to the shadows, but if you see him, tell him to post some beta on a canyon or just ONE trip report and we'll talk

Actually, there are plenty of trip reports and beta associated with the person in question. They are on the canyons group.:wink: Plus the original beta for many of the Zion canyons posted on Bogley and elsewhere originally came from this person.

Deathcricket

02-01-2013, 10:55 AM

Actually, there are plenty of trip reports and beta associated with the person in question. They are on the canyons group.:wink: Plus the original beta for many of the Zion canyons posted on Bogley and elsewhere originally came from this person.

Ahhh so he just comes here to pick fights, complain we are posting info about "his" canyons, suppress threads, and get beta deleted. Then on the "other" forum (that I don't visit) he's a swell guy and shares tones of info, got it. My bad apparently....

Just go to any one of his 35 posts and you'll see how my opinion might be different. I also know at least 2 people who have done canyons with him and been sworn to secrecy. I was actually invited (and very nicely) but not a fan of secret canyons and secret handshakes is all. Not saying he's not a very nice guy. I'm sure once you're "in the club" he's awesome.

ratagonia

02-01-2013, 11:04 AM

BW123

02-01-2013, 11:26 AM

Ahhh so he just comes here to pick fights, complain we are posting info about "his" canyons, suppress threads, and get beta deleted. Then on the "other" forum (that I don't visit) he's a swell guy and shares tones of info, got it. My bad apparently....

Just go to any one of his 35 posts and you'll see how my opinion might be different. I also know at least 2 people who have done canyons with him and been sworn to secrecy. I was actually invited (and very nicely) but not a fan of secret canyons and secret handshakes is all. Not saying he's not a very nice guy. I'm sure once you're "in the club" he's awesome.

I could also refer back to any of your posts and make the opposite conclusion that you are much more intelligent and thoughtful than the internet portrays you to be; I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. In defence of myself, I don't have a real position on sharing beta anywhere or with anyone - so long as it's accurate. It is also silly to think I could control what any of my partners share. Perhaps you think that because I don't offer free beta on this forum, I don't liberally share?

Someone asks what the first mandatory rappel in Walker looks like and I say:

63157

Big Deal! Canyons are free and available on any topo map. If there's one in Zion that looks intriguing just ask someone, even me, and maybe they will share.

Kip

Deathcricket

02-01-2013, 12:05 PM

I could also refer back to any of your posts and make the opposite conclusion that you are much more intelligent and thoughtful than the internet portrays you to be; I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
Kip

No no, I'm even MORE idiotic than my posts make me out to be. You are going the wrong way with this. :lol8:

So let's just clear the record then. You have not taken at least two people through a canyon called "Too Wet" or "Two Wet" and made them swear to secrecy? You did not indirectly invite me to go through said canyon on the condition that I would never reveal it's location? I would hate to bring the two people into this because they invited me confidentially as well. But I can easily go back to them and verify on end. I've never met you.... Unless we did Englestead at a bogleyfest like 5 years ago... I recall a dude named Kip who has some friends who lived right next to the 1st rap and they shuttled the ropes back for us, really nice, and I think a guy named Kip defended me when Tom started bitching me out because I used a quick draw to hang my backpack off of while rapping.... Oh man that was so long ago I forget, could be wrong... Maybe I have done a canyon with you, hmmm...

Anyways clear the record, say you don't run a secret handshake club, I'll go double check with my friends, and then you get an official apology from me. :2thumbs:

BW123

02-01-2013, 01:35 PM

No no, I'm even MORE idiotic than my posts make me out to be. You are going the wrong way with this. :lol8:

So let's just clear the record then. You have not taken at least two people through a canyon called "Too Wet" or "Two Wet" and made them swear to secrecy? You did not indirectly invite me to go through said canyon on the condition that I would never reveal it's location? I would hate to bring the two people into this because they invited me confidentially as well. But I can easily go back to them and verify on end. I've never met you.... Unless we did Englestead at a bogleyfest like 5 years ago... I recall a dude named Kip who has some friends who lived right next to the 1st rap and they shuttled the ropes back for us, really nice, and I think a guy named Kip defended me when Tom started bitching me out because I used a quick draw to hang my backpack off of while rapping.... Oh man that was so long ago I forget, could be wrong... Maybe I have done a canyon with you, hmmm...

Anyways clear the record, say you don't run a secret handshake club, I'll go double check with my friends, and then you get an official apology from me. :2thumbs:

I'm not going to wallow in your mud; however, I will put your 'Too Wet' accusations into context. 'Too Wet'/'Bear Claw'/'The Main Fork of Beartrap Canyon' are all the same canyon. The route begins on private land near Kolob Peak and ends on BLM land near the Hop Valley TH. You enter and exit Private/Blm/Park land several times. The first sequence of waterfall rappels is on private land. There are several levels of permission required for access, which is not assured. I have gained permission on a few occasions (local contacts) but frankly it's not worth the trouble. In this case, I have asked those in our group not to broadband the beta until access has been assured; American Canyoneers is working towards this end. That being said, would it be responsible of me to broadband this canyon?

K

Brian in SLC

02-01-2013, 02:02 PM

Someone asks what the first mandatory rappel in Walker looks like and I say...

Dude, that's totally down climbable...

Ha ha!

Walker o' the Bush! I forgot my secret handshake...did it go along with the phrase, "honey, I know its late, but, I'll be home in time..."?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=is5ZtJpO_TI

Cheers!

2065toyota

02-01-2013, 03:48 PM

Ram. Thank you for pictures and stories of your past adventures. I would ask that this doesn't prevent you from doing so in the future. Thanks. Kody

yetigonecrazy

02-01-2013, 03:55 PM

this may be a stupid question, forgive my ignorance.......but who or what agency appointed the people who guard canyon information? it seems like the titles (and authority that goes with it) were kind of just........assumed? or were their some elections I missed? if thats the case, maybe we should hold a new election? do i have to be registered in a certain district to vote on that? is there a congressman or agency rep I can write a letter to expressing my frustrations with the current system?

Sombeech

02-01-2013, 04:33 PM

You, Somebeech, and Deathcricket (genius) are the only ones that seem to be getting your panties in a bunch.

Whoa! I wasn't aware my panties are in a bunch about ANYTHING related to canyoneering. But then again, maybe you're new here.

I state the likely situation that somebody will post this route at sometime in the future, and there will be a debate whether or not to take it down, flame wars ensue, not to mention the wave of private messages to the poster from those who hardly even visit here on bogley except to stir up controversy like yourself, using multiple accounts.

Me, panties in a bunch over a canyoneering route? I couldn't care less. I'm just explaining my curiosity why you wouldn't talk about this route in the open, instructing those who may travel it regarding the delicacy of the environment, and possibly save the route from long term damage in the near future. I will never ever ever travel this route, nor anything close to it. So I do not care one bit about having the beta.

I invite all to a rational discussion, but then certain people begin with the childish accusations. It's unfortunate that healthy open minded conversations are prevented so quickly.

ratagonia

02-01-2013, 04:44 PM

I'm not going to wallow in your mud; however, I will put your 'Too Wet' accusations into context. 'Too Wet'/'Bear Claw'/'The Main Fork of Beartrap Canyon' are all the same canyon. The route begins on private land near Kolob Peak and ends on BLM land near the Hop Valley TH. You enter and exit Private/Blm/Park land several times. The first sequence of waterfall rappels is on private land. There are several levels of permission required for access, which is not assured. I have gained permission on a few occasions (local contacts) but frankly it's not worth the trouble. In this case, I have asked those in our group not to broadband the beta until access has been assured; American Canyoneers is working towards this end. That being said, would it be responsible of me to broadband this canyon?

K

He just gave you all the information you need to know. Way to go, KIP, SPOILING it for them. Perhaps I should add that the name might hint that you might want a wet suit. Careful of thundershowers.

What more would you want to know? How about, don't go trespassing in there, because it could spoil it for everyone.

Thanks.

Carry on.

Tom

BW123

02-01-2013, 04:52 PM

I invite all to a rational discussion, but then certain people begin with the childish accusations. It's unfortunate that healthy open minded conversations are prevented so quickly.

It's also unfortunate that embellishments are made over private messages. Ram's entire point was that you were stirring up controversy by even mentioning private message 'intimidation'. He made an honest effort to find anyone who might have sent these messages and resolve the 'non-issue'....sorta like an adult.
K

Sombeech

02-01-2013, 05:04 PM

Ram's entire point was that you were stirring up controversy by even mentioning private message 'intimidation'.
K

Me?

ratagonia

02-01-2013, 05:09 PM

Me?

Jman actually. But after a few beers, all the players start looking alike... :cool2: :crazy:

:moses:

Sombeech

02-01-2013, 05:55 PM

Jman actually. But after a few beers, all the players start looking alike... :cool2: :crazy:

:moses:

That's it, I'm changing my avatar!

Deathcricket

02-01-2013, 06:49 PM

You should know as much as anyone, as my beta goes, all you have to do is ask. Kip

In this case, I have asked those in our group not to broadband the beta until access has been assured

Hey no hard feelings. Doesn't hurt to at least ask I guess. For the record, I suspect this is a rare case where you will not share beta. I'm going to apologize anyways. This was the only place (Too wet) where I had even heard your name and suspect I unfairly lumped you in with the "A-team" douchebags who we are really complaining about in this thread. Further research and a couple PM's have told me that you're a very respected member of this community, have some amazing 1st descents (one person said possibly 50!), and other really cool stuff on your resume. Further, no one is boycotting your products as a protest to your douchyness and not one person had a bad thing to say about you. I suspect the "A-team" is just trying to ride your coat tails to enlarge their E-peen status, but really it seems your are in a league above them. And super nice to boot.

Anyways, my sincere apologies.

He just gave you all the information you need to know. Way to go, KIP, SPOILING it for them. Perhaps I should add that the name might hint that you might want a wet suit. Careful of thundershowers.

What more would you want to know? How about, don't go trespassing in there, because it could spoil it for everyone.

Thanks.

Carry on.

Tom

I'm impressed. I think that's the best beta you have ever passed out that someone didn't have to pay (overpay) for. Could it be you are turning over a "new leaf" for the "new year" and going to try and become a respected member of this community? Maybe there is hope for you yet! Good on ya buddy. :2thumbs:

jman

02-01-2013, 10:55 PM

Here's the deal, I never received RAM's email.

I got 2 PMs from ex-Bogley members and 3 PMs from current Bogley members.

Out of the 5, I only know 2 of them. Everyone said they would show like to take me through but that I couldn't tell anyone or name names. Thought that was strange, since you can easily find walker gulch due to google earth.

I respect the fact the people that offered to take me through - but the logistics of getting time off and to coordinate with their schedule etc, hardly works out I have found out.

To paraphrase what Toyota said, why not tell someone it is next to such and such, has this many rappels, takes this many hours, etc. I believe that's a proper way to share canyon info.

Oh, I 100% agree what Kip is saying when it comes to acces and not sharing info. No problem there.

But man, quite the drama scene this thread and the Sad Cow Disease thread have invoked. Very interesting. Good to see that Carpey still checks in from time to time, though ;)

Btw just in case this wasnt clear enough - I'm not in the business of naming names. Sorry, not gonna happen. No hard feelings Ram, nothing personal whatsoever. Serious. Sorry, that your email didn't come through either.

Btw, Kip - you put the word "intimidation" in my mouth. Not good. YOU inferred that.

I said that people wanted a contract for the canyon and I respectfully declined. Tom, Kip, Ram, and others all jumped each other and offered their opinion. I didn't stir anything (ad hominem perhaps?) and stated what happened when dweaver asked if I heard anything.

Sombeech

02-01-2013, 11:51 PM

I got 2 PMs from ex-Bogley members

If they can Private Message, technically they are still bogley members and still surf bogley often enough to see the current threads, right? :bandit:

Login and mingle once in a while, share your canyon care techniques, give some preventative maintenance tips to the masses :2thumbs:

jman

02-02-2013, 12:22 AM

If they can Private Message, technically they are still bogley members and still surf bogley often enough to see the current threads, right? :bandit:

Technically, yes.

These two folks are long gone. One was even a rare poster in the canyoneering section but posted quite a bit in the hiking forum. I highly doubt he was part of the Zion team.

dweaver2130

02-02-2013, 01:12 PM

I actually feel kinda bad for giving this thread a bump. I was curious into your discovery jman. Especially since the wife and I are coming to Zion for ten days this year. We wanted some good options to fill up our time.

Honestly I am kinda depressed that there is this huge divide. I had heard about the show don't tell argument before, but didn't know how serious it was.

I know in our limited experience, 1 event FF XI, that we were very surprised about how open and friendly the canyoneering community was. Both of us were fairly nervous that we would be snickered at and poo pooed for being. the new people with one really easy canyon on our r

jman

02-02-2013, 02:01 PM

[QUOTE=dweaver2130;525772]I actually feel kinda bad for giving this thread a bump. I was curious into your discovery jman. Especially since the wife and I are coming to Zion for ten days this year. We wanted some good options to fill up our time.

Honestly I am kinda depressed that there is this huge divide. I had heard about the show don't tell argument before, but didn't know how serious it was.

I know in our limited experience, 1 event FF XI, that we were very surprised about how open and friendly the canyoneering community was. Both of us were fairly nervous that we would be snickered at and poo pooed for being. the new people with one really easy canyon on our r