Elephant Butte

[Slot Machine]

Steph and I hiked to the top of Elephant Butte on December 2nd, 2012. This is an excellent route for climbers that dabble in canyoneering; but not so much for canyoneers that dabble in climbing (me). I do realize that the two sports overlap a bit, and this route strongly reminded me to get back in the climbing gym.

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Not being much of a climber, I sometimes freeze up on unprotected climbs. I simply can't block out the exposure. Clip me in, and I'm fine. Is it a matter of practice? Or simply a matter of how I'm hard wired? Not sure, but exposure freaks me out.

The 5.4 climb on this route looks pretty easy, but if you fall, you will break some bones. The fall is 15 feet down to a steep sandstone bowl, then another 10 feet down to some broken boulders. Having a spotter there is pointless, it would just be a good way to get two people injured.

Steph can block out the exposure, and she is a better climber than me. So up she went...
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She handled the climb just fine, but it made me quite nervous. The penalty points for falling there are pretty severe. There are no holds to grab onto, one must simply balance on the holds the entire way up. Would it be outrageous to put a bolt somewhere on this climb to belay the climber and prevent a catastrophic fall? It seems prudent in this case, even though I'm generally against bolting.

We soon arrived at the first rappel. It is a 5 bolt anchor, of which 4 of the bolts were used. The outside bolts, #1 and #4, held most of the weight. The webbing placed apart at such an open angle puts a lot of stress on those bolts. Also, bolts #2 and #3 were rigged with acessory cord. And the whole damn thing was ugly. So I decided to rebuild it.

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I did make one mistake here. I aimed the anchor parallel to the wall when it should have been pointed out away from the wall, toward the rope grooves. I also wonder if the person that placed all of those bolts intended for the anchor to be on bolts #4 and #5, and the other three to be used as protection on the way out. :hmm2: It doesn't really matter though, your rope will grove from any of the 5 bolts. IMO, the bolts should have been placed high on the wall next to where the current bolts are located.

:soapbox:

Anyway, the view from the top is excellent. The exit rappel is cool too (sorry, no photo). Elephant Butte was a great way to spend a day in Arches and we highly recommend it. :mrgreen:

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http://amazingslots.blogspot.com/2012/12/elephant-butte.html

[Kuya]

Very Nice TR! I hope to do this very soon! :2thumbs:

[ratagonia]

Thanks for cleaning up that mess of an anchor.

Tom

[Slot Machine]

Thanks for cleaning up that mess of an anchor.

Tom

Ya, it was easy to do, and kind of fun to practice on.

I was hoping you would share your thoughts on that climb. Climbing rating does not neccessarily equate to danger rating. I feel that the 5.4 climb in Elephant is very risky (but not terribly difficult). A fall from the spot where Steph made her committing move would have left her with multiple broken bones IMO.

Do you think the risk of injury justifies putting a bolt at that particular location? If not, what amount of risk would justify a bolt there? A 40 foot fall? A 100 foot fall? (Honest question, not trying to be snide)

(FWIW, I could see no way to protect that move with cams, a spotter, etc.)

Bob

[ratagonia]

Ya, it was easy to do, and kind of fun to practice on.

I was hoping you would share your thoughts on that climb. Climbing rating does not neccessarily equate to danger rating. I feel that the 5.4 climb in Elephant is very risky (but not terribly difficult). A fall from the spot where Steph made her committing move would have left her with multiple broken bones IMO.

Do you think the risk of injury justifies putting a bolt at that particular location? If not, what amount of risk would justify a bolt there? A 40 foot fall? A 100 foot fall? (Honest question, not trying to be snide)

(FWIW, I could see no way to protect that move with cams, a spotter, etc.)

Bob

"Do you think the risk of injury justifies putting a bolt at that particular location?"

No.

"If not, what amount of risk would justify a bolt there? A 40 foot fall? A 100 foot fall?"

It is not your choice.

Since this is a rock climb, a rock climbing ethic applies. The rock climbing ethic is that the first ascent party decides if and where to place bolts, and subsequent parties live with it. If you are not up for the difficulty/risk involved, then don't do the route. Go do something else. New bolts do sometimes get placed on existing climbs (this is known as retro-bolting). If done by the first ascentionist or with their permission, they sometimes stay. If not, they usually get removed.

It is also in Arches National Park, where placing (new) bolts is illegal.

But since this is a canyoneering forum, what is the canyoneering (in Utah) ethic? -

No.

Just from a practical point of view, we cannot put a bolt in every place in every canyon where there is a move with a little bit of difficulty. From a community point of view, it is better to draw a very clear line. That very clear line is "No".* From an ethical point of view, as canyoneers, our job is to deal with the canyons as they are, not modify them to a Disneyland level so we can get through them with little to no risk. Currently there is little to no risk there - because the move is not that hard, and there are ways to protect it (which may not be conspicuous to you, or which may require a team larger than two people.)

I don't remember the spot, but... A. it has been a long time and B. I don't remember things in general. So it is no surprise.

However, I also support your RIGHT to place bolts wherever you really need them. Even in the National Park, assuming you would accept the consequences of your illegal act not try to weasel out of it. I support your right, though I encourage you to NOT exercise it. (Also, please respect MY RIGHT to remove bolts where I choose to.)

And there are other exceptions, mostly in Zion.

Tom :moses:

[Iceaxe]

Literally thousands of people have done this route before you without the need for a bolt. Please do not dumb the route down to accommodate your skills, better to bring your skills up to match the route. You have plenty of time to do this as the route isn't going anywhere.

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[Slot Machine]

Since this is a rock climb, a rock climbing ethic applies. The rock climbing ethic is that the first ascent party decides if and where to place bolts, and subsequent parties live with it. If you are not up for the difficulty/risk involved, then don't do the route. Go do something else. New bolts do sometimes get placed on existing climbs (this is known as retro-bolting). If done by the first ascentionist or with their permission, they sometimes stay. If not, they usually get removed.

:moses:

This is what I was getting at. I know squat about climbing ethics, thank you for the education!


Literally thousands of people have done this route before you without the need for a bolt. Please do not dumb the route down to accommodate your skills, better to bring your skills up to match the route. You have plenty of time to do this as the route isn't going anywhere.

The above is obvious, but worth repeating. I have no grand plans of bolting anything; but do have plans of bringing up my skills. Don't worry. :mrgreen:

[moab mark]

I may be mistaken isn't this up cllimb right before the first rappel? If it is that spot most people climb up in the saddle to the right in the picture?
Mark

[moab mark]

Where did all that webbing come from? A month ago the anchor material was just that cordelette you can see? Same material as what is on the last rappel now. New bolts need to be established at the first rappel on the wall to the left.

[Slot Machine]

I may be mistaken isn't this up cllimb right before the first rappel? If it is that spot most people climb up in the saddle to the right in the picture?
Mark

With no holds at all, neither Steph nor I could climb the saddle (it is taller than it looks). I couldn't boost her up either becase I had no footing. With an extra dude pushing the booster, I bet it could be done. Now I just want another crack at it. :angryfire:


Where did all that webbing come from? A month ago the anchor material was just that cordelette you can see? Same material as what is on the last rappel now. New bolts need to be established at the first rappel on the wall to the left.

I 100% agree that the bolts should be on the wall.

Yellow cordelette is on the last anchor, a burly, well tied anchor. Since when did cordelette become a standard anchor building material? :ne_nau:

[moab mark]

When there are only two you can toss a pack in the crack and have her grab it as you boost and she should go right up. Where she went up is SKETCHY props to her.

[Slot Machine]

When there are only two you can toss a pack in the crack and have her grab it as you boost and she should go right up. Where she went up is SKETCHY props to her.

I *think* you might be thinking of the saddle between this climb and the first rappel. (should have said that before, but I just remembered) A pack toss worked really well there.

We tried a pack toss at the pictured climb, but the crack is angled towards the climber and the pack slides right back at you.

[ratagonia]

Yellow cordelette is on the last anchor, a burly, well-tied anchor. Since when did cordelette become a standard anchor building material? :ne_nau:


"Cordalette" is a style, a method of rigging. Usually done with a length of rope or accessory cord, or high-strength cord, sometimes with webbing. When people cut a piece of cord to carry with them for rigging as a cordalette on anchors, that piece of cord is called a 'cordalette'.

So, someone used their cordalette to rig the anchor. As mentioned elsewhere, cord is not as good going across edges, but it can still make a fine anchor. Is that what was there? It would not be surprising.

Tom

[Iceaxe]

Elephant Butte bolts should be placed here to avoid rope grooves and improve rope pull and getting onto rappel.

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Didn't we just have this talk?

http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?66192

[Slot Machine]

So, someone used their cordalette to rig the anchor. As mentioned elsewhere, cord is not as good going across edges, but it can still make a fine anchor. Is that what was there? It would not be surprising.

Tom

Ah, I didn't know accessory cord was considered a suitable type of anchor material. Must have missed that thread.

Yes, on the final rappel there is a yellow cordalette that someone has used to rig the anchor. It is burly and well tied. *rubs temples* That is what I was trying to say before. Feel free to correct my usage if I mangled it twice. :mrgreen:

[Brian in SLC]

Ah, I didn't know accessory cord was considered a suitable type of anchor material. Must have missed that thread.

Been fairly standard in climbing circles for some time:

http://www.chockstone.org/TechTips/Cordelette.htm

http://www.mountaineers.org/seattle/climbing/Reference/Cordelette.html

http://www.climbingtechniques.org/setting-a-traditional-anchor.html

http://www.chauvinguides.com/Anchoring.PDF

http://www.spadout.com/a/the-history-of-cordelettes/

I think Sterling, BW and a few other companies sell pre-cut lengths of cord specifically for the purpose of constructing cordelettes. 7mm pretty standard.

[Slot Machine]

Been fairly standard in climbing circles for some time:

Interesting reads! Guess it is time for us to start learning about the methods and ethics of these fancy "climbing circles". :mrgreen:

Thanks for the info Brian!

[ratagonia]

Been fairly standard in climbing circles for some time:

http://www.chockstone.org/TechTips/Cordelette.htm

http://www.mountaineers.org/seattle/climbing/Reference/Cordelette.html

http://www.climbingtechniques.org/setting-a-traditional-anchor.html

http://www.chauvinguides.com/Anchoring.PDF

http://www.spadout.com/a/the-history-of-cordelettes/

I think Sterling, BW and a few other companies sell pre-cut lengths of cord specifically for the purpose of constructing cordelettes. 7mm pretty standard.

I think the distinction here, Brian, is between "rigging the anchor" - now commonly done with a cordelette - and using the accessory cord to tie off a rock or tree and leaving it as the anchor material...

Clearly, the language is confusing. While using a cordelette to rig an anchor is common in climbing, the cordelette is then removed by the climber at the end, when moving on. Whereas, in this instance the discussion is about what material is left behind when establishing or using rappel anchors.

To me the answer is: yes, the cord CAN be used, but generally nylon tubular webbing will be stronger (over edges), more durable, and less expensive.

Tom

[moabmatt]

Just to the right of the exposed climb there is a notch in a small watercourse (easily seen in the photos). If I'm with some weak climbers I'll scramble up the climb and hunker down into the crack just above the notch. I anchor a rope to my harness and clip an etrier to this and dangle it just over that notch. Folks just scramble up that etrier. This doesn't make life easier for the first, but it's a nicer option for the followers if they don't like the looks of the exposed climb.

This bowl, and many other climbing sections on EB, is shaded in the winter so it doesn't melt new snow very quickly. I know Arches can be popular for canyoneers, especially beginners, in the winter months. At best, EB is challenging for those new to scrambling on steep rock. In the winter with a bit of snow it can be extremely hazardous and sometimes impossible even for expert climbers.

[COJoe]

Just to the right of the exposed climb there is a notch in a small watercourse (easily seen in the photos). If I'm with some weak climbers I'll scramble up the climb and hunker down into the crack just above the notch. I anchor a rope to my harness and clip an etrier to this and dangle it just over that notch. Folks just scramble up that etrier. This doesn't make life easier for the first, but it's a nicer option for the followers if they don't like the looks of the exposed climb.

This bowl, and many other climbing sections on EB, is shaded in the winter so it doesn't melt new snow very quickly. I know Arches can be popular for canyoneers, especially beginners, in the winter months. At best, EB is challenging for those new to scrambling on steep rock. In the winter with a bit of snow it can be extremely hazardous and sometimes impossible even for expert climbers.

Wife and I are heading to Moab for NYE this year and are planning on doing this hike. Have you had much snow so far this season? I'm assuming you're dry like we are in Colorado.

[Slot Machine]

Wife and I are heading to Moab for NYE this year and are planning on doing this hike. Have you had much snow so far this season? I'm assuming you're dry like we are in Colorado.

It's pretty dry out there, at least last week it was.

Check out www.candition.com (http://www.candition.com) over the next couple of weeks, I bet there will be a few Moab updates posted there.

[Brian in SLC]

Clearly, the language is confusing. While using a cordelette to rig an anchor is common in climbing, the cordelette is then removed by the climber at the end, when moving on. Whereas, in this instance the discussion is about what material is left behind when establishing or using rappel anchors

Last anchor in Heaps? Been a cordellete for quite some time. Useful for rigging from multiple anchors to a single "power point" I suppose. Seems cleaner for some applications than webbing (easier to inspect?).

I'm not seeing much in the way of testing over edges of cord versus webbing. Hmmm...maybe this:

http://www.jrre.org/moy_qual.pdf

Interesting. "Abrasion along the rope" test:


Looking at the data, the one thing that stands out as blindingly obvious is that webbing is awful! For a round rope, only afew fibers at a time are exposed to the rock edge, and the rope wears a few fibers at a time. For webbing, almost all thefibers are abraded on every cycle, and it fails very quickly.


The abrasion across the edge test is, in my opinion, one of the best for evaluating ropes. The test was quite consistent -see the small error bars on the chart, and this is the type of failure that worries me the most on actual rescue operations.Where abrasion along the rope should be seen at the next rope inspection, abrasion across the rope can produceimmediate catastrophic failure - even at low loads like body weight. This test again clearly demonstrated that webbing isawful in abrasion.


Conclusions
For the most part, readers can draw their own conclusions from the test data, or better yet, repeat these or other tests ontheir own equipment. For our group, we found nothing that scares us away from either of the brands of rope wecurrently have in service. The primary difference we will focus on in our training is the difference in elasticity. The testresults for webbing make very clear what we have known for a long time. For rock anchors, if there is any possibilitythat an anchor could shift when it is loaded, webbing should not be used. If it is used on rock, edges should be wellpadded.


Some of the ropes used were down to 3/8" diameter. Interesting. Wonder how 7mm cord would fair against 1" webbing? My bet, based on the testing referenced, it'd do fairly well.

Hmmm....

[ratagonia]

Last anchor in Heaps? Been a cordellete for quite some time. Useful for rigging from multiple anchors to a single "power point" I suppose. Seems cleaner for some applications than webbing (easier to inspect?).



Yeah, except, is not "Accessory Cord", it is Joe Wrona's burly static rope, at least 9mm, maybe 10mm. And it does not really cross edges... kind of a special case.

Other stuff quite interesting... will study it this evening.

Tom

[Brian in SLC]

Is the Wrona cord still the same anchor for Heaps? Yikes!

BD rigged up a abrasion test for quickdraws awhile back. Be interesting to see how 9/16 BW webbing, 1" webbing, and 7mm accessory cord all stacked up. Hmmm.

I wonder, from a visual wear standpoint, if, a cord might be easier to see damage on? Cut half way through versus the wear on a flat piece of webbing? Dunno.

[COJoe]

It's pretty dry out there, at least last week it was.

Check out www.candition.com (http://www.candition.com) over the next couple of weeks, I bet there will be a few Moab updates posted there.

Thanks for the link! As much as this region needs the moisture, I'm hoping things stay dry out there through the holidays.

[Kuya]

Thanks for the link! As much as this region needs the moisture, I'm hoping things stay dry out there through the holidays.

Definition of MOISTURE: liquid diffused or condensed in relatively small quantity

Definition of PRECIPITATION3 : water or the amount of water that falls to the earth as hail, mist, rain, sleet, or snow


The region needs precipitation not moisture ;) :haha: