Potholes- Scariest? Deepest? Anecdotes?

[yetigonecrazy]

Here's one for everyone, just hoping to get a good topic going, not trying to push any buttons or have any underlying messages. Just good stories and opinions. This place is a hoot when everyone is talking....

Let's talk about potholes.

What do you think is the scariest? How about one that personally scares you the most?

What is the deepest pothole? (pit of despair @ poe?)

Any good anecdotes about potholes?

I havent had any good stories in potholes yet.....hoping to have some stories of my own soon. Until then.....anybody? Bueller?

[Scott P]

The deepest pothole I've seen is the one in Upper Iron Wash. It's some 40' deep, but it's not too scary since there is a bypass.

[qedcook]

When I did Upper Iron Wash this May, the pothole was only 10 feet deep or so and really easy to escape! Canyons and potholes change like crazy!

[ratagonia]

My contribution to the genre, stories of quandary direct, my second canyon:

http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/utah/introduction/hazards/quandary-canyon-cautionary-tales/

Tom

[Mountaineer]

Quandary definitely has some great pothole challenges. Go prepared.

Segers had one keeper that was hard for us to get out of. The lower canyon side has a slope, which allows the potshots to slip up and over fairly quick. We tried a lot of various techniques over a ~30 or 40 minute time period. Then, once it started to rain on us we got out in 5 seconds...motivation.

[penmartens]

I believe Dave's first canyon was Quandry. You can read about it here:

http://www.math.utah.edu/~sfolias/canyontales/tale/?i=quandarywaldo

We returned as a couple a few years later to give it another try. We were both fairly new and headed in for what we hoped was a great adventure. The canyon didn't have as much water as Dave's first attempt but it was almost tippy top full. With those conditions the canyon turned into a romantic romp for two; lots of water, hot temps, and cheerful sunshine. Then we got to the Technical Pothole Section. It was in the days prior to potshots so the technique was pack-tossing which was always dubious. Much time passed while tossing and cussing, but Dave finally managed to get us a rope across the big pothole and we continued with our wonderful romp.

60657

But that wasn't what you asked. You asked scariest/deepest. When I am standing in a deep well and a system hasn't been set up yet and there are no voices to be heard, I tend to think of them as lonely places.

Penny

[Iceaxe]

No great pothole stories to tell... but I did take this picture of the Quandary Direct (http://climb-utah.com/SRS/quandary.htm) pothole section from above and I've always thought it was a cool picture.

60663

[Iceaxe]

Maybe this thread should be openned up to include pictures of some potholes?

Here is the crux of Good Day Jim
(http://climb-utah.com/Powell/goodday.htm)
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[yetigonecrazy]

Of course! I have no restrictions on threads I start. I start it, wherever it goes.........there shall it be :cool2:

[ilipichicuma]

I wish that my friend wasn't bogarting the pictures he took when we did Paradiso. There was a kickawesome pothole in that one. We were able to set up a guided rappel to get by it, but it had to be at least 15 feet deep and was probably over 20. It was really cool looking and felt like you were rappelling into a deep black pit (I guess we kind of were).

[Kishkumen]

I have done Imlay three times; once with very little water, once full and once half-way full. The last pot on Imlay is a bugger if Imlay is half way full. The conditions that make it tough are: the poor quality of the holes that are drilled, the cold temperature of the water, the height of the exit wall and the fact that you have been constantly in and out of potholes all day.

As it has already been said, the difficulty of potholes depends on the conditions of the canyon.

[Iceaxe]

The first time I did Good Day Jim the pothole was only wasit deep... I wrote up a route description but didn't post it for a year because of some promises I'd made.... anyhoo... I posted the route a year later after my time constraint had expired and almost immedately started getting emails asking why I forgot to mention the monster pothole.... I asked "what monster pothole?"

In the year since I had done the route and posted the route description the pothole had been cleaned out to create the monster in the picture....

Moral of the story...... slot canyons change so go prepared...

http://www.bogley.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=60664&d=1351640615

[Scott Card]

No shout out for Poe???? :ne_nau:

[penmartens]

I couldn't find my great pic of the Paradiso Pothole.

"The Wart Pothole" in Smiling Cricket

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[Iceaxe]

Paradiso Pothole

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[Iceaxe]

"The Wart Pothole" in Smiling Cricket

Just curious.... how do you cross The Wart? do you just bridge it? or?

[ratagonia]

Just curious.... how do you cross The Wart? do you just bridge it? or?

I think the scariest thing about the Wart pothole, besides being steeply overhanging on all sides, is that it goes down and down, into the darkness and... who knows? Wouldn't want to go in there!

Penny's picture is taken from above, near the actual "Wart". The Wart is like a rotten tree stump of rock on a steep slab. A sling can be tossed around it and rappelled off (to where Luke is hangin', and also 20 feet down behind where Luke is). But the Wart is kinda sketchy. :eek2:

Another way is to go out to the wart, and lower a potshot or two full of sand down to the other side (all the way down, 20 feet past Luke), and then use that to do a tyrollean across the pothole. A Sandtrap or other anchor on the first side is required to set up a real tyrollean, though really, its better to not put that much force on the trailing anchor, so the last person might handline down into the top area of the pothole and get two-man hauled out of the hole.

Clear as dirty pothole water? :naughty: :cool2:

Tom

[Scott P]

Anyone know how big that pothole is in Marinus? I forgot about that one. It's pretty big.

[northernoutpost]

The ones in Essendilene (aka Issendilene) in southeastern Algeria are pretty messed up. The one in Paradiso is pretty small-I've seen pretty short people bridge that one.

Surprised also that Lost Eden didn't get a mention.

[outsider]

I've seen a few interesting potholes over the years. I'd have to say the Wart pothole is one of the more intimidating looking, even though it is defeated relatively easily. I can imagine that one or two in Imlay are frightening depending upon water levels. Strangely, one that gave me the shivers was just up on a fin in Arches NP.

60713

It just felt like the terrain wanted to flush you into that thing, and with 15ft sheer walls, you wouldn't be getting out.

-john

Ps. The deeper pothole in Paradiso is just upcanyon from the one in Iceaxe's picture. We played with it one time and found (a) it was about 12-14 ft deep (that day), and (b) a good climber can climb out, at least when water levels were 4ft or less below the rim. Of course, it is entirely avoidable with a stem, or a little reach to your right, depending upon your arm length. :haha:

[Mojave Silence]

Here's a couple from Lake Powell:
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[Iceaxe]

Those look like grade A number 1 potholes.

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[ilipichicuma]

Ps. The deeper pothole in Paradiso is just upcanyon from the one in Iceaxe's picture. We played with it one time and found (a) it was about 12-14 ft deep (that day), and (b) a good climber can climb out, at least when water levels were 4ft or less below the rim. Of course, it is entirely avoidable with a stem, or a little reach to your right, depending upon your arm length. :haha:

That's the one I was talking about. It was just really cool-looking because it was at the bottom of about a 50 foot (or so, I'm not that good at judging height) rappel and it was cloudy when we were in there so the pothole was really dark. We didn't go into it because our friend managed to do a pack-toss while he was rappelling. Then we did guided rappels for the rest of it.

[PG Rob]

Ps. The deeper pothole in Paradiso is just upcanyon from the one in Iceaxe's picture. We played with it one time and found (a) it was about 12-14 ft deep (that day), and (b) a good climber can climb out, at least when water levels were 4ft or less below the rim. Of course, it is entirely avoidable with a stem, or a little reach to your right, depending upon your arm length. :haha:


That's the one I was talking about. It was just really cool-looking because it was at the bottom of about a 50 foot (or so, I'm not that good at judging height) rappel and it was cloudy when we were in there so the pothole was really dark. We didn't go into it because our friend managed to do a pack-toss while he was rappelling. Then we did guided rappels for the rest of it.

The rappel/downclimb is about 16 feet to the rim of the pothole, and the pothole can be stepped over. It is quite deep.

[penmartens]

I can get over the Paradiso pot' with a semi-guided rap, otherwise I go in. The last time I was in, it was about 12 feet deep and dry. It is fairly easy to climb out of for a good climber. For me, being a fair to midland climber, I can get out easily with a handline. There are some nice footholds low to get started.

So, not to delve into the land of controversary, but if you go over a pothole doesn't that make it a silo? That requires a different set of skills. It also is a different 'scare'; the fear of entrapment vs the fear of falling.

Penny

[ratagonia]

I can get over the Paradiso pot' with a semi-guided rap, otherwise I go in. The last time I was in, it was about 12 feet deep and dry. It is fairly easy to climb out of for a good climber. For me, being a fair to midland climber, I can get out easily with a handline. There are some nice footholds low to get started.

So, not to delve into the land of controversary, but if you go over a pothole doesn't that make it a silo? That requires a different set of skills. It also is a different 'scare'; the fear of entrapment vs the fear of falling.

Penny

Yah, though a silo when on rappel is... what?

Did that one last week or so - was a pretty reasonable hop to pass it on rappel, only took me two tries!

The REAL bad pothole is, I venture, the first one you meet in a canyon. -ulp- what do we do now???

I must say, coming upon the huge pothole in Poe without expecting it - that would be scary!!! :eek2:

Tom

[penmartens]

Yah, though a silo when on rappel is... what?



Would that be a pot-lo? a si-hole? a pot-si? I'll leave it to the word masters.

[Iceaxe]

My 2 cents... if I'm walking down the canyon bottom and reach a pothole, that's a pothole.

If I'm steming down a canyon and reach a silo, that's a silo.

FWIW: a lot of the guys I canyoneer/canyoneered with in the good ol' days called silo's "bells" before the term silo became popular.... as in "the canyon really belled out at that point". But that was back when we rode our dinosaurs to the trailhead.... but that might make sence because silo's are just really old potholes....

TTYL

[penmartens]

The REAL bad pothole is, I venture, the first one you meet in a canyon. -ulp- what do we do now???

I must say, coming upon the huge pothole in Poe without expecting it - that would be scary!!! :eek2:

Tom

I agree, wholeheartedly, the first one is probably a bad one.

So, Tom, would the converse be true? If you have seen the pics, read the horror stories, and have the facts the huge pothole in Poe wouldn't be scary?....

Luke got a case of the 'earlies' and said 'this is it' when we were in Cricket. We were elated wow we got there in short time with lots of the day to resolve this nasty issue.
John stepped up. He looked into the hole, he looked at the sky, then down canyon and upcanyon. "No, Luke, I don't think this is it. Penny?"
I stepped up, looked at the landing on the other side and looked upcanyon behind me. "No, this isn't it."
We quickly defeated the now unmemorable pothole and went on.
Sometime after lunch with Matt and John in the lead. John announced, "We're here." Well, no matter where you are, you are always 'here' (unless, of course, you are' there' which is a whole other issue); but, we all knew what he meant. By 'here' he meant the Pit of Despair. Silence and immobility fell upon us. I sent Luke forward to setup his experimental technique. John, our ringer, stepped back into the shallow pothole before the behemoth to prepare himself physically and mentally. Adam and I stayed back even further to farm sand out of the pothole behind us. I don't think Matt uttered a sound for about 20 minutes. He stood at the edge of the Pit and managed the trailing ropes for the pothots being thrown. When he found his voice, he said things like, "How about this...?" "Shall we try that..." It was very intense. Even though John landed his first potshot well down into the next hole to much cheering, there wasn't much relief to the tension until Adam crawled out on the other side almost an hour later.

[ratagonia]

So, Tom, would the converse be true? If you have seen the pics, read the horror stories, and have the facts the huge pothole in Poe wouldn't be scary?....


The Pit of Despair is a place to apply the Powell Doctrine, especially this part:

"the force, when used, should be overwhelming and disproportionate to the force used by the enemy;"

While I generally regard a minimalist, alpine approach as being the most appropriate to our canyons, there are times to bring "overwhelming force" in the form of Steve Jackson, John Diener, Murray Clarke, Aaron Ramras, Steve Brezovec or Brendan Busch. There are certainly more people that have the talent to be considered overwhelming talent - but for this particular obstacle both physical height and physical talent are required.

Arriving there without a super-talent: that would be scary. I could probably get up it, but it would not be pretty.

Tom

[Iceaxe]

Here are a few more potholes for grins and giggles......

One of the infamous Quandary Canyon Potholes

60723


The deadly pothole in knotted Rope where a woman was killed in 2007 (http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?26661).

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Anther Kontted Rope pothole

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And my favorite Knotted Rope pothole. This one is easy to escape but makes a great swimming hole on hot days. This is myself, Tom Jones and the late Roger Arhart taking a dip. Potholes are not always scary, sometime they make a great playground for fun and games.

60726


:popcorn:

[penmartens]

Pothole in Pothoez. The second one in the cheerful sunlight isn't the one I am attempting to point out. It is the one in the lower part of the picture.

60727

We did a guided rap/tyrol to get over it with Luke pulling us the final few feet. There was no picture taking when we were hanging over the abyss.

60728

[ratagonia]

Wait... how did Luke get down there?

T

[yetigonecrazy]

I think a good guess would be he used the Force.

Seriously though, thanks to everyone. These are great, keep em coming!

[superstition]

We don't find difficult keepers in Grand Canyon that often, but this one really amp'd up the adrenaline as soon as I saw it. Perhaps because it was so unexpected. We we're a few raps into a limestone slot during a very remote first descent when we encountered a giant pool with clear water that was 30' or more deep and went wall to wall. It was quite difficult to beach whale out the other side on the slippery limestone even though the pool was full. A toss was too far for a pack or potshot and there was no lip anyway. A hook might have worked .... if we were carrying any :eek2: If the water level were down another foot it could have been pretty ugly. After realizing how lucky we were, most folks on the descent team had to poo. We decided to call this one Dump Truck Canyon :mrgreen:

Rich

60735

[dsw2925]

This is what it look like from the bottom of the "The Wart Pothole" in Poe.
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And the "Pit of Despair" in Poe that took us five hours to get our group past.
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The full story - http://canyoneering.wordpress.com/2012/06/01/return-to-the-fold-a-five-hour-crux-in-poe-canyon/

[PG Rob]

This is the pothole Penny referenced at the end of Pothoez. I was sitting on the down canyon lip when I took this.
60744

[Scott P]

...

[Eric Holden]

What do you think is the scar

Potholes? What are those? Our lovely granite canyons don't really produce potholes, but we do have one that I have come across. Apparently it can be up to 17' deep. As of the last few times I have gone down it is only about 4 ft deep and dry. Would love to see it as the true keeper it could be. Polished wet granite = fun to climb.

60747

[yetigonecrazy]

Great stuff, everybody. Thanks again. These kind of discussions are why I love this board.

Let's move on to pothole formation now.....

I've seen potholes in the Entrada (Arches), Navajo (duh) , Wingate (seen some in Ding/Dang), Shinarump (Wolverine mini slots), and Cedar Mesa (Blackhole), what are some other rock types they frequent?

Is there a reason they form in some canyons of the same rock type, but not others? Are they more common in one rock type over another? Obviously slight differences in the composition of the local host rock are going to influence it, but do people have a guess as to why? Why are the canyons in the Navajo around Bullfrog so quick to generate potholes but others in the Navajo elsewhere are not? Thanks again for posting. You guys rock!!

[Mojave Silence]

Eric--is that LSA? It's been a few years since that one has been in keeper mode.

[Scott P]

I've seen potholes in the Entrada (Arches), Navajo (duh) , Wingate (seen some in Ding/Dang), Shinarump (Wolverine mini slots), and Cedar Mesa (Blackhole), what are some other rock types they frequent?

Some are in the Redwall as well. The Weber Sandstone has some too.

Is there a reason they form in some canyons of the same rock type, but not others? Are they more common in one rock type over another? Obviously slight differences in the composition of the local host rock are going to influence it, but do people have a guess as to why? Why are the canyons in the Navajo around Bullfrog so quick to generate potholes but others in the Navajo elsewhere are not?

Several reasons I think.

Around Bullfrog, there is a purplish layer in the Navajo that whenever the canyons cross through it, they are laced with potholes (such as around Lost Eden). It has a different composition.

Steep drainages with tilted rock strata also form many potholes (i.e. the San Rafael Reef and Waterpocket Fold). This is true of the Navajo (Quandary, Segars Hole/Squeeze, North Fork Iron Wash, Poe, etc.) and the Cedar Mesa SS (Three Fingers).

Even if not tilted, tight constrictions in canyons where they drop steeply also form potholes (Imlay, Peach, etc.).

[Eric Holden]

Eric--is that LSA? It's been a few years since that one has been in keeper mode.

Yes it is.

[MrAdam]

I've seen potholes in the Entrada (Arches), Navajo (duh) , Wingate (seen some in Ding/Dang), Shinarump (Wolverine mini slots), and Cedar Mesa (Blackhole), what are some other rock types they frequent?

The Coconino Sandstone down here in AZ also forms some pretty large potholes, most notably in the canyons that drain into West fork of Oak Creek, Illusions, Insomnia and Barney Springs. There are also some smaller potholes in the canyons of West Clear Creek, like the keeper in Shamrock, but they are less prevelant in WCC than they are in West fork of Oak.

[n00basaurus_rex]

"The Wart Pothole" in Smiling Cricket



http://vimeo.com/54423926

http://vimeo.com/54423926

[Brian in SLC]

A canyon I did in Spain was in limestone. Barranco del Infierno in the Costa Blanca.

http://deco.alc.upv.es/cuevasalicante/pdf/infern%20022.pdf

Surprisingly deep potholes, all defeated by end around via ferrata rigging, some, fairly strenuous.

61466

61467

Was thinkin' a couple of these woulda been "interesting" with the potshot type techniques. Low risk to try for sure!

Great photo's upthread of the deepies. Thanks!

[canyondevil]

Too bad that video link doesnt work. The Wart Hole is by far the most intimidating pothole I have seen. Much more so that the Pit of Dispair.

61477

[heliski2]

The funniest pothole experience I've seen was during a quick descent of Water Canyon. There are several small potholes that are easily bypassed, but one managed to cause a bit of irritation. We were doing a short rap to what looked like a ledge from above. I told him I'd carry it, but my partner decided to toss his 60m rope he was carrying down to the ledge. When I rapped down the rope had vanished in a small but deep hole that was full of water.

He tried to swim to the bottom of the hole a couple times but didn't reach the bottom and couldn't feel the rope. I was laughing so hard watching him struggle in that small hole I wasn't much help. After he finally gave up. We hiked out leaving the rope behind. We had to leave right afterward for work, so I passed the location to my son at Zion Adventure Company who easily retrieved the rope the next day.

I'm still sitting here laughing at the image of his legs kicking above the water from the flotation of his wet suit as he was trying to reach the bottom...:lol8:

[Iceaxe]

Too bad that video link doesnt work. The Wart Hole is by far the most intimidating pothole I have seen. Much more so that the Pit of Dispair.

Here is the direct link to the video:

http://vimeo.com/54423926

[Bootboy]

Here's a neat one. Points if anyone knows where it is
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/12/16/myqube4e.jpg

[Mountaineer]

That is really a cool pic...not Utah?

[Kuya]

Here's a neat one. Points if anyone knows where it is
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/12/16/myqube4e.jpg

Beautiful! Where is it?

[dweaver2130]

South Africa?

[Bootboy]

South Africa?

Nailed it. Bourkes luck potholes.

[summitseeker]

Just east of Moremela, South Africa.

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archivo:Bourke's_Luck_Potholes.jpg

[Iceaxe]

Sweet looking potholes

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[sasteve49]

This is still one of my favorite keepers62118. On Powell. But guiding-lining it with a Sandtrap Sandwich made it so easy....

[Mountaineer]

This is still one of my favorite keepers. On Powell. But guiding-lining it with a Sandtrap Sandwich made it so easy....

Amazing!