New anchors in the Subway Sept 29

[ratagonia]

New Post regarding anchor work in the Subway.

http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/zion-national-park-subway-anchor-work-sept-2012/

Ready..... Discuss!

Tom

[canyoncaver]

Why did you remove one of the bolts at the handlining station? Even with your views on handlining, seems you would rather have the handliners handlining off of two bolts instead of just one, no?

[2065toyota]

I also wondered earlier this year the lifespan on the logs at the last obstacle. I did not spend much time looking around for another bypass but I do believe this was inevitable

[Deathcricket]

Why did you remove one of the bolts at the handlining station? Even with your views on handlining, seems you would rather have the handliners handlining off of two bolts instead of just one, no?

LOL I wasn't gonna even read it, but now I'm curious. My guess is he wants to control what people do in a canyon, or he believes bolts are an eyesore and interferes with his enjoyment of nature. But you got me curious now, thanks. :2thumbs:

[Shooter McCanyon]

Did the subway a few days ago and noticed the nice shiny bolts on the boulder and on the right side of the last rappel. Found downclimbing the front of the boulder to be fairly easy. Setup an anchor on one of the remaining jammed logs at the waterfall because the rappel looked like a blast. It was. Climbed back up and removed the anchor considering what recently occurred there (not that the anchor was the issue).

Those bolts will definitely come in handy if the logs wash away.

TR Forthcoming.....

[Bootboy]

Why not put bolts on the wall above the logs?

[Iceaxe]

I'm not sure what to think about this....

Are we going to dumb all canyons down to the lowest common denominator or just this one? Why not just place a ladder at all the problems. Or maybe we should just chop a giant staircase into the caanyon wall?

but my other though is..... if you are going to dumb it down you might as well do it right.

:popcorn:

[2065toyota]

The underlying problem with subway is that alot people do not read trail descriptions and go in thinking its just a hike. While to the majority on here it is there are a lot who consider that extreme. I have talked to a lot of people who acknowledged that it was more difficult than expected. I think this canyon has to be made accessible to the public. If you don't like the anchors then don't use them. I'm sure when you enter the subway it's like entering pine creek. It is great fun but don't expect a complete wilderness experience. Enjoy it for what it is. Or complain enough so they drop the permit numbers and then complain you can't get a permit

[Iceaxe]

One other thought.... perhaps all bolts should be pulled at the big bolder. Maybe some that can't figure it out and don't really belong will turn around.

maybe the warning on your permit should read "technical gear required".... after all... those type of warnings was the orginal intent of requiring permits in Zion.

[Scott P]

...

[Brian in SLC]

Ahhh...I likes me some vertically oriented anchors...

Tom, mad bolter, mad bolt chopper...ha ha. Can't keep his hand out of the cookie jar...

[ratagonia]

One other thought.... perhaps all bolts should be pulled at the big bolder. Maybe some that can't figure it out and don't really belong will turn around.


No, they don't turn around.

The other spring: people rent dry-pants for the Subway. Arrive at the Left Fork with considerable flow - they go forward.

T

[ratagonia]

Why not put bolts on the wall above the logs?

That would put people directly in the waterflow for the rappel.

Are you perhaps thinking creating a Via Ferrata so that people can zip across to the other side? I doubt the NPS would think this was a good idea. This is a less-industrial solution.

Tom

[ilipichicuma]

No, they don't turn around.

The other spring: people rent dry-pants for the Subway. Arrive at the Left Fork with considerable flow - they go forward.

T

That happened. I was there.

[ratagonia]

Ahhh...I likes me some vertically oriented anchors...


You mean, like this?

[Scott Card]

I usually am the meat anchor for my party at the boulder. Everyone would handline or rap off of me then I would carefully lasso the horn of the boulder and hand line down. With these new anchors, some of my "I'm the man" status with future parties just went away I'll have you know. I'll need a note now to prove that I used to be "the man." :haha:

[Brian in SLC]

You mean, like this?

Indeed I do!

[Bootboy]

That would put people directly in the waterflow for the rappel.

Are you perhaps thinking creating a Via Ferrata so that people can zip across to the other side? I doubt the NPS would think this was a good idea. This is a less-industrial solution.

Tom

No via feratta... That's absurd. When we rigged the "deadly anchor" off the logs, we were not in the falls, you could reach the falls with your foot but you were not IN the falls.

[Iceaxe]

Putting the anchors where bootyboy suggests is no different than the keyhole falls anchors just before. It is also the first place people will look to find anchors.

Sent using Tapatalk

[ratagonia]

Putting the anchors where bootyboy suggests is no different than the keyhole falls anchors just before. It is also the first place people will look to find anchors.



Just to be clear, I put in the final anchor for when the logs wash out and getting to the other side becomes more difficult.

One goal was to make anchors useful for high water / winter conditions.

Another goal was to make anchors usable for people with minimal skills.

The position suggested I don't think would have met BOTH of these criteria at the same time. If they were easy to reach, they would have put the rappeller in the waterflow. If they kept you out of the waterflow, they would have been hard to reach.

Tom

[ratagonia]

I usually am the meat anchor for my party at the boulder. Everyone would handline or rap off of me then I would carefully lasso the horn of the boulder and hand line down. With these new anchors, some of my "I'm the man" status with future parties just went away I'll have you know. I'll need a note now to prove that I used to be "the man." :haha:

If you scurry to the front and put your pack atop the bolts, then no one will know they are there... and you can still be "the man!".

Tom

[Scott P]

Downclimbing the boulder:

http://www.summitpost.org/images/medium/323874.jpg (http://www.summitpost.org/images/original/323874.jpg)

Pretty easy to upclimb as well, especially with a partner.

[ratagonia]

Downclimbing the boulder:

It's even easier to upclimb, especially with a partner.

Yeah, except the ground is about 2 feet lower now, so the bottom 5 feet is pretty hard.

Tom :moses:

[Mountaineer]

Yeah, except the ground is about 2 feet lower now, so the bottom 5 feet is pretty hard.

Tom :moses:

We're bolting that downclimb? Even at 5', with a possible partner assist; I agree this looks safe and easy. But alas, I suppose we're talking about the subway...

[ratagonia]

We're bolting that downclimb? Even at 5', with a possible partner assist; I agree this looks safe and easy. But alas, I suppose we're talking about the subway...

Nope. Someone bolted that rappel. You have not been there, Mountaineer? You're missing out!

Downclimbs are rather difficult to judge from a picture.

6650 people a year go through there. Maybe more, that was the 2004 number.

http://www.archive.canyoneeringusa.com/zcc/data2001b.htm
http://www.archive.canyoneeringusa.com/zcc/2004_Backcountry_Fee_Permit_Statistics.pdf

There is even a walk-around, but it is entirely inobvious, and most people don't know about it.

Tom

[Eric Holden]

Pictures, got to love pictures. See bolts on top of boulder, and rappel.

[Mountaineer]

Nope. Someone bolted that rappel. You have not been there, Mountaineer? You're missing out!

Downclimbs are rather difficult to judge from a picture.



Truly missing out, it is on my list for sure.

Re: downclimbing; There have been many times I've done a rappel, then looked back up and thought "hey, I could have down climbed that one". But then again, both my ankles were still intact and carried me out...:nod: Thus in contrast, I'm sure there are ones that I could have taken a bigger risk on and perhaps not have been so lucky.

Improved judgement comes with experience combined with ability. I really like your suggestion of belaying the down climbs (that can be reasonably belayed) as a method for improvement in both judgement and ability...

[SRG]

It's also possible to downclimb the chimney between the right side(ldc) of the boulder and the canyon wall.

[ratagonia]

It's also possible to downclimb the chimney between the right side(ldc) of the boulder and the canyon wall.

It is, but the floor there has also gotten 2 feet lower.

Some of us break a lot easier than we did a few decades ago...

Tom :moses:

[ilipichicuma]

It's also possible to downclimb the chimney between the right side(ldc) of the boulder and the canyon wall.

This is what I've done both times I did the Subway. It wasn't bad. I've definitely had worse down climbs.

[2065toyota]

We have always used the rabbit hole. It has seemed to be the fastest and safest

[Stray]

It always seemed odd to bring harnesses and rope for one 10 foot rappel.

OTOH, I hope the canyon still has the left side hand line bolts. I really don't want to round up that many harnesses for my scout troop.

[ratagonia]

It always seemed odd to bring harnesses and rope for one 10 foot rappel.

OTOH, I hope the canyon still has the left side hand line bolts. I really don't want to round up that many harnesses for my scout troop.

Since the NPS explicitly suggests bringing harnesses and rappelling, I am surprised that a responsible scout leader would do it without. I realize there are practical problems with doing it "properly", but then again I thought one of the POINTS of the Scout program was to teach the boys to do things right.

Uh oh, I'm headed toward my handline rant... which will not be well-received here on the Bog -- so I won't. But DO be clear that as a scout leader, if you do not bring harnesses in there and rappel, when some kid breaks his ankle it will be on you, as BSA insurance does not cover leaders acting irresponsibly.

Fewer broken ankles and knees in there this year, as opposed to previous years.

Anyway, I think your boys will like the rabbit hole next time.

When those logs wash out at the end, for the last rappel/handline, you will want harnesses as there is no way to get off the right side of the cliff via handline. I set up an anchor in what I thought was the best location, but it is still not a handlineable place, as I could not find one.

Tom :moses:

[hike.higher]

Since the NPS explicitly suggests bringing harnesses and rappelling, I am surprised that a responsible scout leader would do it without. I realize there are practical problems with doing it "properly", but then again I thought one of the POINTS of the Scout program was to teach the boys to do things right.

Uh oh, I'm headed toward my handline rant... which will not be well-received here on the Bog -- so I won't. But DO be clear that as a scout leader, if you do not bring harnesses in there and rappel, when some kid breaks his ankle it will be on you, as BSA insurance does not cover leaders acting irresponsibly.


This is a good catch 22 with the scouts. I bet the scout insurance wouldn't cover you either way unless you have all sorts of certifications. To do a canyon with any rappelling the BSA requires that you are canyon certified. this requires that you are also climbing certified. Two fairly onerous requirements.

But, if you don't want to rappel and only handline and someone gets hurt than the BSA will reference the NPS material and not cover you for your irresponsibility.

Tough break.

[Eric Holden]

When those logs wash out at the end, for the last rappel/handline, you will want harnesses as there is no way to get off the right side of the cliff via handline.
Tom :moses:

With a running start, you could jump it :stud:

[Stray]

Since the NPS explicitly suggests bringing harnesses and rappelling


Clearly the NPS cannot be recommending they rap off your new bolts as they were not there when the recommendation was written (and I doubt they would recommend rapping off the log in the waterfall).



I am surprised that a responsible scout leader would do it without. I realize there are practical problems with doing it "properly", but then again I thought one of the POINTS of the Scout program was to teach the boys to do things right.


I cannot think of any place in subway that has anything larger than a 8 foot downclimb. Subway downclimbing skills is what we are working on. OTOH, we do bring the rope, webbing and harness (just in case something has changed dramatically).

When we are working on rappelling, we go somewhere else. When we did Three Canyons, it took us 1 1/2 hours to complete the first and only rap. I don't want slow others down and I want to complete the canyon before nightfall.

<beginning of rant deleted/>



Anyway, I think your boys will like the rabbit hole next time.


Where is the rabbit hole?



When those logs wash out at the end, for the last rappel/handline, you will want harnesses as there is no way to get off the right side of the cliff via handline. I set up an anchor in what I thought was the best location, but it is still not a handlineable place, as I could not find one.

Tom :moses:

I like having the new rappel setup on the right side LDC. I also like having the bolts on the left side that can be used as a rap or a downclimb. OTOH, I still plan on using the 6 foot downclimb that requires some partner assist. (I would never dream of having someone as old as you attempting to make either downclimb :haha: )

I never thought I would say this, but thank you for bolting this side of the canyon.

[Stray]

With a running start, you could jump it :stud:

Yeah, I have had to talk a 16 years old out of making that jump.

[Iceaxe]

Where is the rabbit hole?

From Climb-Utah.com
(http://climb-utah.com/Zion/subway.htm)
"Follow Left Fork downstream as the obstacle course begins. The first major obstacle is a large boulder. Experienced canyoneers can downclimb the front of the boulder. There is a route around the north (right) side of the boulder that looks inviting but that is the worst of the options and requires an awkward rappel. The best way around the boulder is to look over against the south (left) canyon wall. If you look carefully you will notice a large hole that you can downclimb through. The hole is somewhat hidden and is overlooked by most parties, but finding the hole will make this obstacle easy to bypass."


The rabbit hole is the only way to go. It's easy, simple, no chance of injury and a fun way to defeat the obstacle. It's even more fun when a group is bottlenecked up at the boulder trying to get everyone down and you walk over to the left and crawl through the rabbit hole and walk around moving your group of 8 efficiently through while the other group is working on getting one guy down.

[ratagonia]

From Climb-Utah.com
(http://climb-utah.com/Zion/subway.htm)
"Follow Left Fork downstream as the obstacle course begins. The first major obstacle is a large boulder. Experienced canyoneers can downclimb the front of the boulder. There is a route around the north (right) side of the boulder that looks inviting but that is the worst of the options and requires an awkward rappel. The best way around the boulder is to look over against the south (left) canyon wall. If you look carefully you will notice a large hole that you can downclimb through. The hole is somewhat hidden and is overlooked by most parties, but finding the hole will make this obstacle easy to bypass."


The rabbit hole is the only way to go. It's easy, simple, no chance of injury and a fun way to defeat the obstacle. It's even more fun when a group is bottlenecked up at the boulder trying to get everyone down and you walk over to the left and crawl through the rabbit hole and walk around moving your group of 8 efficiently through while the other group is working on getting one guy down.


Good description.

When you look over at it, it sure is inobvious. There is a cairn over there now, next to the hole that is next to the rabbit hole.

I no longer downclimb at Keyhole Falls. The landing is bad, often bowling balls hidden in the swirling water. I sprained the same ankle there twice, six months apart; thus I decided using a rope there makes a great deal of sense.

Tom

[ratagonia]

Clearly the NPS cannot be recommending they rap off your new bolts as they were not there when the recommendation was written (and I doubt they would recommend rapping off the log in the waterfall).


That's not what I said. The NPS does not recommend specific anchors; the do recommend bringing ropes and harnesses and rappelling... I would pull the exact wording off my last permit if I could find it.



I cannot think of any place in subway that has anything larger than a 8 foot downclimb. Subway downclimbing skills is what we are working on. OTOH, we do bring the rope, webbing and harness (just in case something has changed dramatically).

Tell it to the judge!

Just so you know, if one of those kids gets hurt, it is on you. The BSA and the Church will not back you up on this matter.



I like having the new rappel setup on the right side LDC. I also like having the bolts on the left side that can be used as a rap or a downclimb. OTOH, I still plan on using the 6 foot downclimb that requires some partner assist. (I would never dream of having someone as old as you attempting to make either downclimb :haha: )

I never thought I would say this, but thank you for bolting this side of the canyon.

Thank you. For the second one.

I used to do that downclimb at the end back when I was only like 90, but now that I am like 100, dropping 8 feet on to the hard sand is just too risky... :crazy:

:moses:

[Iceaxe]

I no longer downclimb at Keyhole Falls. The landing is bad, often bowling balls hidden in the swirling water.

FWIW: Since September Keyhole Falls has a nice big sandy landing and a big log to down climb, but I'm sure that will change greatly with spring runoff.

Sent using Tapatalk

[Stray]

Is this the wording you were talking about?



Canyoneering: Never enter a technical canyon without the knowledge and skills needed to safely explore and return. Rappelling and down-climbing skills are required to navigate through the Subway. Do not jump. Jumping in Zion's canyons have resulted in many broken bones. The Subway route requires excellent map reading skills to navigate. GPS coordinates are only references and may or may not be accurate and a GPS has limited capabilities in canyons. Do not rely on them as the sole method of navigation. Always check your position with a detailed map before dropping into a canyon.


or this?



Difficulty: This is a technical canyon where rappelling and down-climbing skills are required, but these obstacles can be avoided by hiking from the bottom (http://www.zionnational-park.com/left-fork-north-creek.htm) into the Subway.
​

Pulled from http://www.zionnational-park.com/zion-national-park-subway.htm

[ratagonia]

Is this the wording you were talking about?

or this?

Pulled from http://www.zionnational-park.com/zion-national-park-subway.htm

While Tanya's site is a great resource, it does not represent official policy of Zion National Park.

Official Policy is:



The Subway -
From the Top Down
This is a strenuous 9.5-mile hike that requires rappelling skills, 60 feet of rope, and extensive route finding experience. The route also requires swimming through several deep pools of very cold debris-filled water. The trail begins at the Wildcat Canyon Trailhead and ends at the Left Fork Trailhead. Both trailheads are located on the Kolob Terrace Road.


http://www.nps.gov/zion/planyourvisit/thesubway.htm

Tom

[rurri]

This is sad.

Subway always held a special place for me because of the fact that you could show up on a hot summer day with just swimming trunks, good shoes, and a few feet of rope.

It was my first canyon many many years ago, and was with the Boy Scouts. We had a fantastic time and I felt like we had just gone through a huge adventure. Amazing. Didn't use harnesses then, and don't now when I take friends.

With an experienced person going first so that there is someone on the bottom to spot in the event someone falls, I don't think any of the hand lines are especially high risk. Although I always tend to be the one to get stuck in the cold water....

Is sad that access to the low slanting face on the final rappel may be disappearing soon.

Is also surprising that it is considered negligence to take someone on the subway sans harnesses.

Sometimes it's just nice to leave the gear at home on a hot summer day with low water flow. Oh well. The Subway will still be worth doing even if I do need to bring harnesses along.

[ratagonia]

This is sad.

Subway always held a special place for me because of the fact that you could show up on a hot summer day with just swimming trunks, good shoes, and a few feet of rope.

It was my first canyon many many years ago, and was with the Boy Scouts. We had a fantastic time and I felt like we had just gone through a huge adventure. Amazing. Didn't use harnesses then, and don't now when I take friends.

With an experienced person going first so that there is someone on the bottom to spot in the event someone falls, I don't think any of the hand lines are especially high risk. Although I always tend to be the one to get stuck in the cold water....

Is sad that access to the low slanting face on the final rappel may be disappearing soon.

Is also surprising that it is considered negligence to take someone on the subway sans harnesses.

Sometimes it's just nice to leave the gear at home on a hot summer day with low water flow. Oh well. The Subway will still be worth doing even if I do need to bring harnesses along.

It is not REQUIRED that you bring harnesses and rappel. But, if you are leading innocent victims into its maw, it is recommended that you at least have that capability. Make your own choices, live by the consequences. If your friend falls badly and loses use of their legs, and since the Park recommends something and you did not do it, you will lose all your possessions.

Just sayin'...

Tom

[Iceaxe]

I thinking those logs disappearing at the final rappel will be a good thing. As it will eliminate a large number of gumbie canyoneers doing the top down route.

[Bootboy]

I thinking those logs disappearing at the final rappel will be a good thing. As it will eliminate a large number of gumbie canyoneers doing the top down route.

How do you figure?

They are oblivious to the logs existence and would have no knowledge of their absence.

[ratagonia]

I thinking those logs disappearing at the final rappel will be a good thing. As it will eliminate a large number of gumbie canyoneers doing the top down route.

Shane.........

such the curmudgeon...

I disagree. I think it will be sad that the Subway can no longer "safely" be handlined. And there will be a difficult transition period.

Tom

[Iceaxe]

How do you figure?

They are oblivious to the logs existence and would have no knowledge of their absence.


I figure once the logs wash out you will have to rappel the final drop. I'm sure the NPS will be notified of the new obstacle almost immediately because they will be forced to conduct a couple dozen rescues...... after that I assume they will put some type of notification in place warning the canyon has change and now requires technical gear..... could also make signing off on a notification part of picking up your permit.

And I figure that will take care of about 90% of the gumbies.... the other 10% will continue to try the route and end up in trouble, but you can't fix stupid.


Anyhoo.... that's what I see peering into my crystal ball.

:popcorn:

[Bootboy]

Couldn't you still jump across?

[rurri]

It is not REQUIRED that you bring harnesses and rappel. But, if you are leading innocent victims into its maw, it is recommended that you at least have that capability. Make your own choices, live by the consequences. If your friend falls badly and loses use of their legs, and since the Park recommends something and you did not do it, you will lose all your possessions.

Just sayin'...

Tom

I would hope that I was devastated that something terrible happened to a friend. Not about the loss of my possessions. This is why I think all of us try to minimize risk as much as we can. Not because we are worried about lawsuits, but because we feel a responsibility to those we take with us and that put their trust in us.

We all want to increase safety, but that always means trade offs. Otherwise we would just stay inside.

Let's all be safe out there.

[Scott P]

I figure once the logs wash out you will have to rappel the final drop.

I don't think I'd agree. Dating back to ages 11 & 13, we've climbed up and down that drop many times. In the 1980's there used to be a big log that aided the ascent, but it was hard to downclimb and we used to just downclimb the drop that is the rappel. Now days, many people still climb up and down that drop (partner assist at the bottom), especially those hiking in from the bottom because they usually don't bring harness and rope.

Lest anyone understand, I am not recommending anyone downclimb that drop as it is easy to break an ankle on the last few feet. Rappelling it is much safer. What I am saying is that people will still upclimb and downclimb it with or without the logs and that I don't think rescues will go down that much.

[ratagonia]

Couldn't you still jump across?

Maybe, maybe not. Hard to say, with the logs there. Seems like neither the takeoff nor the landing are all that good.

And, just to be clear, even if you and I, Bootboy, could make the jump, I'm not sure 50% of Subway hikers could.

Tom

[ratagonia]

I don't think I'd agree. Dating back to ages 11 & 13, we've climbed up and down that drop many times. In the 1980's there used to be a big log that aided the ascent, but it was hard to downclimb and we used to just downclimb the drop that is the rappel. Now days, many people still climb up and down that drop (partner assist at the bottom), especially those hiking in from the bottom because they usually don't bring harness and rope.

Lest anyone understand, I am not recommending anyone downclimb that drop as it is easy to break an ankle on the last few feet. Rappelling it is much safer. What I am saying is that people will still upclimb and downclimb it with or without the logs and that I don't think rescues will go down that much.

I think you lost track of what we were talking about, Scott. We be talking about the logs that allow access to the left side bench, near the end. These logs:

Tom

[rurri]

Hope I am not resurrecting a thread that is too old, but I am insterested...

Anyone have any update on these logs used to traverse over to the left side for the handline? Will be going down Memorial Day weekend, would be good information to have.

[2065toyota]

Logs are there and in good condition. There is also new webbing on Tom's new anchors also. We went through on April 28, 2013

[ratagonia]

This is why I think all of us try to minimize risk as much as we can.

But you just said that you don't.

Tom

[canyonguru]

i have always handlined Subway and Orderville due to the fact that i don't feel it is nessisary to bring the gear. Tom is rigt about scouting groups it is a pain in the but to go through all the training and nessisary equiptment to take a official scout group down a technical slot canyon.

Just curious do you think on the new achor at Keyhole could you use a J-hook around your foot for added friction and handline down that way. Its the way we CrossFitter's climb rope. Just a thought.

A harness would abvioulsy be the safter route.