So... I'm leading my first canyon today

[DiscGo]

For a couple of months I have been planning on going canyoneering this weekend in Zion with a group of friends. A couple of them cancelled for babysitting purposes, and then DeathCricket was supposed to guide us but got sick, and then other couple got scared when DC couldn't make it. My wife and I already had a babysitter lined up for the weekend, and didn't want to miss out. So we are doing Pine Creek by ourselves.

I am a little nervous about going through a canyon on my own, and my wife is afraid of heights and I am worried about her clipping in and getting going on the final rappel on her own. But win, lose, or draw this is happening. Wish us luck!

[jon.moab]

If you are nervous, take enough rope to provide her a top rope belay on the raps, especially the final one.

[Iceaxe]

If you are nervous, take enough rope to provide her a top rope belay on the raps, especially the final one.

X2

Sent using Tapatalk

[Deathcricket]

You can do it buddy! Like I told you before, I have faith in you! :2thumbs:

[SRG]

Good luck!

[DiscGo]

For the record, everything went really well. We have been practicing rappelling with her from the tree in our front yard and I think it helped a lot. She was comfortable enough that she even did one of the rappels without me belaying for her while I worked on getting the rope untangled.

The rope was our only problem. We bought a CanyonFire rope back in August and outside of my tree this is my second time using the rope. It is super stiff and seems to get odd twists in it that add tangles. I am admittedly still getting the hang of rope management but I have been really surprised to see the difference between a new rope and a used rope. Anyone have any advice on how to help a rope not be so stiff without damaging it? Right now I am thinking about taking it to a laundromat (to save my washer any problems) and washing it on a delicate cycle. Bad idea?

[Iceaxe]

Your rappel device/technique is your big problem with rope twists and tangles. You need to stop using an 8 (Pirana) or learn proper rope management technique (using a rope bag and setting rope length).

A stiff rope is not your problem and anything you do to soften the rope is just a band-aid that will kinda mask poor technique. Better to solve the actual problem than attempt to mask it. If you don't fix the real problem it will eventually come back and bite you in the butt.

and congrats on leading your first canyon and bringing everyone back alive..... leading and following are different animals. :2thumbs:

[Bootboy]

The best way to soften a rope is to use it....

[DiscGo]

Your rappel device/technique is your big problem with rope twists and tangles.

I get what you are saying that it is more to do with my rope management skills than it is with the rope it self but I haven't had this problem with other ropes. The rope doesn't get twisted when I am rappelling down it. It gets twisted when I put it back in my bag between rappels. So I am just trying to figure out the best course of action on how to prevent twists or kinks until my rope becomes a little more malleable.

[Bootboy]

Like I said, use it.

[trackrunner]

The rope doesn't get twisted when I am rappelling down it. It gets twisted when I put it back in my bag between rappels.

Are you experiencing twists when you deploy the rope at the top for the next rappel? What are you using, a rope bag or coiling?

if using a rope bag/silo clip the inside top attachment point clip to the front or your harness. tie one end of the rope in the bag at the bottom attachment point. clip the rope with a binner and clip to your chin strap. stuff the bag in a motion from your chin down into the bag. This will get rid of the twists and deploy the rope smoother.

if coiling then maybe you may want to consider a rope bag/silo since the proper technique is easier to learn. a unknown canyoneer once said coiling is bad, rope bag is good.

but there are better techniques to coiling. when you coil in your hands or on you forearms you can accidentally cross strands that when you throw the rope at the top of a rappel it can cause twists or rat nests. I'd recommend coiling in a way that your coil looks like a figure 8. I've found this to deploy smoother and easier to learn then some coiling techniques. YMMV There are other coiling methods that work.

[Eric Holden]

Congratz on the first lead.

My first lead was also my first time Canyoneering :naughty:

[Iceaxe]

My first lead was also my first time Canyoneering :naughty:

x2

Except the word canyoneering had yet to be coined so we were really just hiking with ropes. :lol8:

[Iceaxe]

DiscGo, I'm really not following you as ropes don't just get twists in them. They are from either the rap device or your coiling method. If you are using a rope bag it is your rap device/technique that is the problem. If it's from coiling you might do better working from a rope bag or try a different method of coiling.

Sometimes I use a rope bag, and sometimes I use a mountaineers coil so I can eaily carry the rope over my shoulder. If you use a mountaineers coil you have to learn to put a half twist in every coil while coiling to avoid tangles. It's a great and really fast method, but it takes some practice to master. It's not a real popular method with other canyoneers because of the learning curve.

Mountaineers Coil
60410

:popcorn:

[mzamp]

Talk about rats nests...try untagling a 200+ foot 6mm pull cord. Needless to say, the rest of the trip i wouldn't let anyone touch that rope. And when I got home I immediately bought a Bagette for it. Problem solved...now even my noobs can share the work. :naughty:

[Deathcricket]

Dude I will show you on our next trip. I should have showed you on our last trip sorry. :2thumbs:

[rockgremlin]

Dude I will show you on our next trip. I should have showed you on our last trip sorry. :2thumbs:

Too busy playing "hide the salami"

[Brian in SLC]

The rope was our only problem. We bought a CanyonFire rope back in August and outside of my tree this is my second time using the rope. It is super stiff and seems to get odd twists in it that add tangles.

Geez, don't wash it yet! That ain't gonna help.

Use it, ala the advice above.

Are you using a rope bag/bucket? It doesn't tangle when you rappel, but, its the way you are coiling it, or, stacking it in a bag??

Maybe its how you stack in in the rope bag?? Don't you just feed it in? Should feed right back out.

Congrat's on gettin' 'er done, though!

[SRG]

The mountaineer's coil wraps the rope around itself as if you were rolling a rope up on a spool. This puts a (half?) twist in the rope for every coil and it causes alot of twisting and tangling when uncoiling because people don't usually have the time(and space) to unroll the rope in the same way it was rolled up.

The backpacker's coil lays the rope on top of itself so it doesn't put twists in the rope to begin with. I prefer it to the mountaineer's coil by a long shot, but for cragging and canyoneering I still go with the rope bag.
Here's a decent video on the backpacker's coil.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4uwdLAKT1g

-Sam

[Deathcricket]

Too busy playing "hide the salami"

No he asked me on our last trip "Let me start the next rap" or something similar, which I thought meant he wanted to be the first down. But I later learned he wanted to set the rap up and learn the little tricks... I failed him as a friend! :eek2:

Next trip I am going to make it up to him though.

[DiscGo]

I failed him as a friend! :eek2:


I was thinking that exact phrase when I was trying to get the rope untangled on Saturday :).

I have been using my arm to wrap the rope in a circle and then using the last couple of feet to keep it in the same loop. I have been putting the rope in my North Face backpacking pack, and nothing specifically designed to drain water or carry rope.

I own some Yakima straps, and my current plan is to strap the rope before I put it away next time, but as usual I find @trackrunner (http://www.bogley.com/forum/member.php?9765-trackrunner) 's suggestion to be valuable and will develop a solution before I go again, or I will just make @Deathcricket (http://www.bogley.com/forum/member.php?u=278) go with me again next time and learn from him.

Thanks guys.

[Eric Holden]

I have been using my arm to wrap the rope in a circle and then using the last couple of feet to keep it in the same loop.

That is why it is getting coiled up and tangled. Wrapping it this way will cause the rope to coil up and especially for long rope, will cause it to get all tangley. Here is how I have always "Coiled" up my rope.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4uwdLAKT1g">
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4uwdLAKT1g (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4uwdLAKT1g)

[Brian in SLC]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFW51YwoLZ8

I use a Imlay rope bag for most of my canyoning...but, when I don't, butterfly coil is by far the method I use to capture and carry a rope.

People develop their own specific method for gathering up a rope for transport. Interesting, and, sometimes painful, to watch...ha ha.

In the video above, Stephen does what a large percentage of climbers do to coil a rope. I don't like it for a couple of reasons...

Drives me a little batty sometimes, that, when pulling a rope in, folks just don't coil it while they're pulling it in. First they pull it into a little pile. Then, they fish around to find the other end. Then, they match ends, and, start coiling, but, since the rope is in a pile, they pull half of it from underneath, and, sometimes it clusters up. If they just coiled it as they pulled...yeah, done. You toss it on the ground ready to deploy, and, it feeds from one end, not like in the video where he gets near the end of stacking it for use, and, it clusters up a bit.

I'm not an over the shoulder butterfly coiler. Just don't like havin' a dirty rope on my neck. I just hold it in my hand. Not too hard.

Tangles happen.

By far the easiest way to manage a rope is to feed it loosely into a bag on top of itself. Easy in, easy out.

When you do an arm wrap, you're probably putting tension and a twist into it, and, it'll cluster more often than not. Butterfly coil keeps the rope loose for the most part.

[DiscGo]

I love this website!

Thanks for all the input!

[Deathcricket]

Yeap yeap! 2 great vids guys, that's pretty much exactly what I do except single stranded (like around 5:20 in Brians vid) and of course don't turn it into a backpack, just hang it from the top strap of my existing backpack.

Not really a fan of rope bags. My buddy @Deeps (http://www.bogley.com/forum/member.php?u=6608) teases me mercilessly for it. :) They are nice don't get me wrong, especially when bushwhacking is involved, but they just take so long to load up. I've seen people hang them from their chin straps, chest, waist, etc, etc while loading... But I have yet to see an efficient way to pack them. it's like you gotta do it one foot at a time, vs the other way 6 feet at a time. Both guys in each video got theirs done in under 3 mins while even stopping to explain the procedure. I wonder if there is data on the load times some place. Someone should do a study. :lol8:

[Iceaxe]

I have been using my arm to wrap the rope in a circle and then using the last couple of feet to keep it in the same loop.

FWIW: This is where your twists are coming from. If you coil you have to intentionally add a 1/2 twist to every coil so this doesn't happen.

If you don't have a rope bag you can use a second backpack as a rope bag. We often do this on shorter canyons like Pine Creek. We stuff one pack with all our gear and the second pack we just use as a rope bag. It works pretty sweet.

:2thumbs:

[bioject]

Virtually every nontechnora rope I've seen becomes stiff and difficult to work with. If you plan to do more Canyoneering in the future and can afford it, I recommend selling your current rope and getting a sterling c-Iv. It will last much longer and remains supple.

[hank moon]

Hi DiscGo - congrats on your first canyon lead! Pix?

Re: twists and such:

1. New ropes are generally twisty the first 5-10 (more or less) FULL LENGTH raps. Twisting due to newness will disappear with use.
2. The "garden hose coil" (wrap around elbow and capture with same hand) will twist the heck out of a rope. Proper use of a proper* rope bag is the most efficient way to manage the rope and avoid twists.

*ICG, yo :)

[DiscGo]

That is why it is getting coiled up and tangled. Wrapping it this way will cause the rope to coil up and especially for long rope, will cause it to get all tangley. Here is how I have always "Coiled" up my rope.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4uwdLAKT1g (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4uwdLAKT1g)

I really like this guys' technique.

[DiscGo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFW51YwoLZ8

I just watched this video. For those who use the rope / backpack technique do you still carrying your climbing bag on top of the rope backpack? Or do you have somebody else put your duct tape, ascending gear, knife, etc. in their bag?

[Eric Holden]

I don't know of anyone that wears the rope as a backpack when canyoneering. We always either bag it or put it into an actual back pack. This shows how to coil the rope up.

I do however use the back pack technique when rock climbing. Once you reach the top of the climb and have to descend class III choss back to the car, it is a great way to hold your rope. Most of the time, you do not have a back pack on so it works great!

[Brian in SLC]

I just watched this video. For those who use the rope / backpack technique do you still carrying your climbing bag on top of the rope backpack? Or do you have somebody else put your duct tape, ascending gear, knife, etc. in their bag?

Not sure I understand your question... If I'm not putting a rope into a dedicated rope bag, then, I still need to coil the rope unless I can drag it over to the next drop (a drop that's super close). If any distance, then, I can either toss it on over my pack and carry it that way, or, I can put it under the top lid (some packs have a strap specifically for a rope) or, can stuff it in my pack. Plenty of options. And, yeah, there's times when especially on a shorter canyon where you either don't need a pack, or, can get away with one person carrying a small pack in a small group, and the person who's sans pack can just wear the rope.

For me, the butterfly coil is just a fast and easy way to coil a rope, which also gives an option to carry it like a backpack.

[moab mark]

Disco,
Just buy one of Tom's rope bags, all problems will go away. Coiling is a pain in the butt in a Canyon. If you grew up a climber and are profiecient at coiling ok but for the rest of us a bag is the only way to go. 200' coiled rope and a 20' rappel just shoot me.

[Brian in SLC]

200' coiled rope and a 20' rappel just shoot me.

Actually fairly easy to deal with...take coil, unwrap holding the middle of the butterfly loops, peel off 40 feet of rope, re-coil, thread, toss, and go. Voila. No extra rope out. Fast, efficient.

[Sandstone Addiction]

60449

Petzl Rope Bucket--regular size. $40 on sale.

http://www.karstsports.com/perobur41.html?utm_source=googlepepla&utm_medium=adwords&id=41892591961&utm_content=pla&gclid=CKWp9eaEmLMCFW1yQgodWD4A5w

I know it's no ICG silo, but it's a lot less expensive and with a few well placed grommets works great for me until I can afford the Lexus of rope bags. :cool2:

[moab mark]

Actually fairly easy to deal with...take coil, unwrap holding the middle of the butterfly loops, peel off 40 feet of rope, re-coil, thread, toss, and go. Voila. No extra rope out. Fast, efficient.

Hope you don't only uncoil 35' before you toss.:lol8: I'm not smart enough to even coil a rope correctly, you lost me at butterfly. I'll stick to bags.

[Iceaxe]

All things being equal I much prefer to coil. It's a lot faster and easier....

But the down side is it does take talent and a bit of a learning curve. Also because it takes some skillz if using coils I normally end up with rope duty. When we use a bag my kids get stuck with rope duty and I'm free to take pictures and play grabass....

:cool2:

[Brian in SLC]

Hope you don't only uncoil 35' before you toss.:lol8: I'm not smart enough to even coil a rope correctly, you lost me at butterfly. I'll stick to bags.

Don't ya play that game, though? Its one of my fav's.

You eyeball the drop. Estimate the distance. Play out what you think is the perfect amount of rope. Toss. If the end barely grazes the ground, you win!

My arm length for rope is calibrated...ha ha... 40 feet is easy. That's 8 arm lengths. Bingo!

[hank moon]

Next bogley fest should have a rope mgmt. comp.

A decent bagger will beat the best coiler every time in overall rope management. :cool2:

[Brian in SLC]

A decent bagger will beat the best coiler every time in overall rope management.

Decent? Nope. Good, maybe. Best coiler versus average bagger? My money's on the coiler.

Pine Creek speed descent? Interesting. The lads improved their times going to rope bags, for sure. But, toss and go with coils they still were so much faster than anyone else...

Fast and good is fast and good, no matter coil or bag.

Be fun to have a comp, though. Take the best bagger, and, the best coiler, time them, then, have them trade techniques. Best average time wins.

Fun to ponder, Hank! You and me gonna race? Ha ha...Pine Creek in three, two, one...(still haven't gone sub one hour yet...dang it, 1:01 is still my fastest time pavement-to-pavement).

[Deathcricket]

Decent? Nope. Good, maybe. Best coiler versus average bagger? My money's on the coiler.

Pine Creek speed descent? Interesting. The lads improved their times going to rope bags, for sure. But, toss and go with coils they still were so much faster than anyone else...

Fast and good is fast and good, no matter coil or bag.

Be fun to have a comp, though. Take the best bagger, and, the best coiler, time them, then, have them trade techniques. Best average time wins.

Fun to ponder, Hank! You and me gonna race? Ha ha...Pine Creek in three, two, one...(still haven't gone sub one hour yet...dang it, 1:01 is still my fastest time pavement-to-pavement).

Ohh OHH ohh! We should do this! I volunteer our Z-crew to compete with the coilers team. We have a 2 person coil method for a 300 footer that cannot be beat. I should video it sometime and put-er-up. One guy starts coiling while the other guy starts the rope pull, then he starts from the other end once the rope drops from the ring up top. It's genius!

[Iceaxe]

Best coiler versus average bagger? My money's on the coiler.

x2

This is one of the rare times I've ever disagreed with the hankster...

:cool2:

[ratagonia]

Yeap yeap! 2 great vids guys, that's pretty much exactly what I do except single stranded (like around 5:20 in Brians vid) and of course don't turn it into a backpack, just hang it from the top strap of my existing backpack.

Not really a fan of rope bags. My buddy @Deeps (http://www.bogley.com/forum/member.php?u=6608) teases me mercilessly for it. :) They are nice don't get me wrong, especially when bushwhacking is involved, but they just take so long to load up. I've seen people hang them from their chin straps, chest, waist, etc, etc while loading... But I have yet to see an efficient way to pack them. it's like you gotta do it one foot at a time, vs the other way 6 feet at a time. Both guys in each video got theirs done in under 3 mins while even stopping to explain the procedure. I wonder if there is data on the load times some place. Someone should do a study. :lol8:

Here's how the A-Team stuffs a ropebag:

http://imlaycanyongear.com/ropebags2.php

Easy, efficient, minimizes tangling problems.

Tom

[hank moon]

Decent? Nope. Good, maybe. Best coiler versus average bagger? My money's on the coiler.

ok, "good" then. Semantics - sheesh. Rope bags offer the possibility of increased speed (vs. using coils) - especially in wet canyons. Any rope management comp. would include throwing the rope down wet drops, leapfroggin, blocking single lines, etc. There's just no way a coiler can best a good bagger. Remember all the sunken coil treasure that used to wash up in Heaps? hahaha.

No comparison, really. I'll take on any coiler slime - any time.

[hank moon]

Ohh OHH ohh! We should do this! I volunteer our Z-crew to compete with the coilers team. We have a 2 person coil method for a 300 footer that cannot be beat. I should video it sometime and put-er-up. One guy starts coiling while the other guy starts the rope pull, then he starts from the other end once the rope drops from the ring up top. It's genius!

Sounds good in a dry canyon, but think about a pull point 30' out from the plumb line and the rope landing in 20' deep water (e.g. steep-sided pothole).

[Brian in SLC]

No comparison, really. I'll take on any coiler slime - any time.

Them's fightin' words.

60m ropes at 30 paces. Pick your venue. Ha ha.

Actually a wet Pine Creek would be super.

I can run and coil a rope at the same time...(ok, maybe not, since I can barely chew gum and walk at the same time).

Its on like donkey kong!

[Deathcricket]

Sounds good in a dry canyon, but think about a pull point 30' out from the plumb line and the rope landing in 20' deep water (e.g. steep-sided pothole). well on a tough pull like that, the "coiler" would most likely keep up with the "puller" anyways. So not sure your one rare example holds up to scrutiny. But the only way is to test. Winner gets the other guy's rope!

[Brian in SLC]

That's like racin' for pink slips! Ha ha...

Yeah, I got a crappy old rope ready for the dumpster that I'd rappel on...

[hank moon]

well on a tough pull like that, the "coiler" would most likely keep up with the "puller" anyways. So not sure your one rare example holds up to scrutiny. But the only way is to test. Winner gets the other guy's rope!

forget the dimensions and focus on the scenario: swimmer landing, bit of swimming to a pull/pack/coil point. it's not at all rare...

[hank moon]

Them's fightin' words.

60m ropes at 30 paces. Pick your venue. Ha ha.

Actually a wet Pine Creek would be super.

I can run and coil a rope at the same time...(ok, maybe not, since I can barely chew gum and walk at the same time).

Its on like donkey kong!

Gotta have some rules.

Here's some to get it started:

The contest is about rope management, not how fast one moves through the canyon. so...time for each evolution starts when the rope (reasonably secured to the canyoneer, not simply in hand) is touched, and ends when the rope is coiled or packed and again reasonably secured to the canyoneer. Coilers must take normal precautions to prevent rope loss due to sinkage. Penalty points for swimming with an unsecured rope. Rope bags are assumed to float the rope (though there have been cases where this didn't happen).

Edit: time stops during rappel operations - only deployment/securing/repacking is timed.

Next?

[ratagonia]

So....

Remember where this thread started. With problems of deployment. Yes, DiscGo was using the WORST possible coiling method, but his problem was in deploying the incredibly kinked up rope.

I make no claim that bagging is faster than coiling. A good coiler and a good bagger I think are pretty evenly matched. But the key point of the ropebag is that the rope is ready to DEPLOY, while a coiled rope is only somewhat ready. Working the overall cycle (deploy rope, rappel, pull rope, bag or coil) the bag will be faster, period.

At the end of the day, I often coil the rope, because me coiling the rope is gonna be faster than almost anyone else (Hankster excepted) bagging it. And that way, the hero carrying the big rope is relieved of also carrying the rope silo, which can be passed to a lesser person, such as me.

Christmas party? Say, about 9 pm when all contestants are adequately lubed up?

Tom

[Brian in SLC]

They ain't no canyons at the Holidaze party, Tom! Coilin' v baggin' a rope in the snow? Brrr. I'd win that one...ha ha. Maybe.


The contest is about rope management, not how fast one moves through the canyon.

I ain't a gonna win no foot race, that's fo sho.

But, yeah, clock starts at the first rappel stance in Pine Creek (the first real one, not that approach thing). Butterfly coil on back. Rope bag on harness? Works for me. Then...go.

Clock stops at last rappel when rope is coiled and on back, or, rope is in bag and attached to harness.

Distance between the drops is short for the most part. Couple long hall ways to keep the rope draggers honest, but, not so long that foot speed is a huge deal.

Problem would be to try to find Pine Creek in uncrowded enough conditions to allow a race. Which, makes the playing field even more level...do it at night, with a headlamp. Can't run fast and have to be in control enough not to crash and burn. Or, you could just say "speed walking" and no running. That'd work better for me (ha ha).

Ropes. Pick your poison or have someone provide two of the same?

We'll need a party at the front and back with stop watches. One of us gets a 10 minute head start. Or, we time ourselves (easy enough). Flip to see who goes first. Support crew to include a frosty cold IPA at the bottom of the last rappel.

[Brian in SLC]

Edit: time stops during rappel operations - only deployment/securing/repacking is timed.

Rope bag v coil is part of the system. System needs to be tested and advantages of each as part of the system would have to be tested, so, the movement from rappel station to rappel station, negotiating water, securing the rope, bagging or coiling, moving to next station, re-deploying, all are part of the system. Only fair way to measure the difference in how each works in the system is to test them as part of the system, not, just deploy/secure/repack. What can make the rope coil system quicker, is, I can do it on the move. I can pull, be coiling, and, be moving towards the next anchor, all at once. Sure, if I drag my rope and its all clustered and gets stuck on some rocks, or, in some roots/debris, then, that's a risk of that method. All part of the game.

I'd think you'd want to rappel as part of the time. Beauty of the rope bag is being able to toss the whole thing down. On lower angle rappels, I'd have two rope ends to deal with getting down the rappel. You'd have one if you blocked, rapped, and tossed the bag.

Which is why Pine Creek is the perfect venue. Has enough drops, enough terrain, enough hazards, mix of close and far anchors. Works.

I might concede that if we were standing at a steep drop, and, all you had to do is feed one end through an anchor, lower the rope to the ground and toss the bag down, then, stuff it back in the bag, that you'd be quicker. But, if you're married to the bag as a system, then, it needs to apply to the canyon, and, not just a single anchor, drop, bag up.

If that was the case, then a holidaze party race would work. Deploy down a stairway to "someones" house (ha ha), then, bag or coil at the bottom. I'd still race ya! Not givin' me good odds, though...

[Deathcricket]

Uhhh that sounds very dangerous..... :lol8:

How about you just record the deployment, and "cleanup" of each rap? Then add the times together and post a vid. Someone else does the same thing and we compare notes? People rap at different speeds and once the rope is packed, travel time between obstacle is irrelevant IMO. Although I will fully admit when bushwhacking is involved, not snagging your rope because it's in a bag is a huge plus......

Plus I know at least 3 places in pine creek where people rap and our crew just jumps it....

[ratagonia]

Uhhh that sounds very dangerous..... :lol8:

How about you just record the deployment, and "cleanup" of each rap? Then add the times together and post a vid. Someone else does the same thing and we compare notes? People rap at different speeds and once the rope is packed, travel time between obstacle is irrelevant IMO. Although I will fully admit when bushwhacking is involved, not snagging your rope because it's in a bag is a huge plus......

Plus I know at least 3 places in pine creek where people rap and our crew just jumps it....

Dangerous? Sounds like a demonstration of proficiency.

Could do the whole thing via GoPro. The truly motivated might make multiple passes...

A shorter drive for me than for most.

T

[hank moon]

Could do the whole thing via GoPro. The truly motivated might make multiple passes...

Set up ascent rope to access canyon overlook trail for ez repeat - aren't there some anchors just above the cathedral?

[ratagonia]

They ain't no canyons at the Holidaze party, Tom! Coilin' v baggin' a rope in the snow? Brrr. I'd win that one...ha ha. Maybe.


Might be a bit of an impetus to move faster... ha ha ha.

T

[moab mark]

Don't ya play that game, though? Its one of my fav's.

You eyeball the drop. Estimate the distance. Play out what you think is the perfect amount of rope. Toss. If the end barely grazes the ground, you win!

My arm length for rope is calibrated...ha ha... 40 feet is easy. That's 8 arm lengths. Bingo!
I'm just messin with ya. I understand the concept.

[moab mark]

You guys are not solving discos problem. How about if the bagger wins the race the coilers buy disco a rope bag and vis versa?

[Brian in SLC]

He ain't got no skin in the game.

[Iceaxe]

You guys are not solving discos problem.

We solved discos problem two pages ago.... now we are measuring our daddy parts.... haha....



Sent using Tapatalk

[flatiron]

I'm not an over the shoulder butterfly coiler. Just don't like havin' a dirty rope on my neck. I just hold it in my hand. Not too hard.



A climbing class will teach you to use the butterfly/backpackers coil by doing it over your shoulders. Mainly cause ropes used by climbers used to be and in some cases still are so thick and bulky to do by hand. The skinny ropes used for canyons are easily done in one hand, especially a 30m. I can coil that way faster than bagging. Sometimes if we do not have or bring along a bag for 200' ropes we do 2 coils of 100' each. Than only use 1 side for short raps so we r not recoiling all 200' each time. Also I find when poss it is much easier to use 2-100' ropes instead of a 200'r. 1 person not carrying all the weight, much easier handling for short raps especially in canyons outside of Zion. And we almost always leapfrog so rather bring 2 or 3 short ropes and roll. But everyone needs to be able to access/build anchor, set ropes and then pull and coil. Practice butterflying by hand, it is sooo quick !

[Deathcricket]

the boy doesn't need a rope bag you guys are missing the point! :lol8:

[ratagonia]

Set up ascent rope to access canyon overlook trail for ez repeat - aren't there some anchors just above the cathedral?

We can set a rope off the Great Arch, and people can just jug on up for a second lap.

T

[2065toyota]

Uhhh that sounds very dangerous..... :lol8:

How about you just record the deployment, and "cleanup" of each rap? Then add the times together and post a vid. Someone else does the same thing and we compare notes? People rap at different speeds and once the rope is packed, travel time between obstacle is irrelevant IMO. Although I will fully admit when bushwhacking is involved, not snagging your rope because it's in a bag is a huge plus......

Plus I know at least 3 places in pine creek where people rap and our crew just jumps it....

I heard rumor earlier this year of a guy doing pine creek earlier this year with no rope and hiking around the last 2 raps. That is a big jump into the cathedral

[2065toyota]

We solved discos problem two pages ago.... now we are measuring our daddy parts.... haha....



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Never judge a topic by its original post

[Iceaxe]

I heard rumor earlier this year of a guy doing pine creek earlier this year with no rope and hiking around the last 2 raps. That is a big jump into the cathedral

I've seen it done about 20 years ago. But back than the cathedral was really deep and you could run down the water course and jump into the middle. At the final rappel you could walk around but you had to use a big long board to form a ledge to get past one 20' section. Last time I checked 10 years ago the board was gone and I don't know how you would get down without it.

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