Your Advice

[COJoe]

Hi all!

So, as my first real post on this forum I need your advice...

My wife's bday is coming up and, due to her newly found love for canyoneering discovered over the summer at Zion and ZAC, I'd like to get her all the start-up gear necessary to roll out to Utah this winter for some fun.

Now, we're definitely new to this (one training canyon and then Subway) and will be starting slow to build our experience and confidence (i.e., shorter rappels, definitely no single-line raps yet, only day trips, etc.). And I think I've exhausted all links here and on climb-utah and Tom's site, so I'm really looking for your personal recommendations.

Here's what I'm thinking so far (and I hope you can fill in the gaps):

-Petzl Piranha (we learned on this and would rather perfect this device before trying others)
-60m static rope, polyester wrapped/nylon core... is REI okay to buy or is there specialty rope found elsewhere? Also need recommendations on rope size (definitely want safest and lightest, but I get conflicting opinions online)
-Rope bag
-Harness - she's 5'4" 110lbs... any recommendations?
-Carabiners - I realize the attachment from harness to Piranha needs to be considered, any recommendations?
-Helmet
-Pack - are Imlay products the best?
-Etc. (webbing, extra biners, quicklinks, shorter rope for autoblock, gloves)

Also, this gear will definitely be used for wet canyons next summer.

Thanks in advance for your expertise and if any of you have any recommendations for some good beginner canyons in Moab, I'd love to hear 'em!

Joe

[maarten.1975]

Hey Joe, good evening and welcome on the forum!
I followed more or less the same route you described to get into canyoneering. A 1-day course at ZAC, most of my canyons in Zion and as well some outside of Zion. If I have to give some advice from my point of view, I can just tell you what equipment I have and whether I like it:


pirana for sure indeed, and I see in the CUSA-store the matching Attache Screwgate HMS Carabiner by Petzel. I also learned it with this device, and for now it is my basic descender.
i bought the Imlay canyonfire rope, 200 ft, and as well the large rope silo from Imlay. This silo is a bit large for this rope, however that makes stuffing the rope much more easy. The rope works perfect for me, both double and single stranded; I weigh around 200 lbs. Single may need an extra Z-rig on long descends.
for me the Imlay Kolob pack works perfectly for day trips. It is the perfect middle size, it is very very strong, and all features are focussed on canyoneering. It is simply made for canyoneering.
harnass and helmet... I'd say go to a store with her and try them on... I think they need that personal 'this-one-fits-me'-feeling.
as gloves I use these kind of latex-dipped garden gloves. they come in several brands, I think many canyoneers like the Atlas brand.
furthermore just some of the basic stuff, spend as much as affordable. Some proper carabiners, 30 - 1000 foot of webbing (much more would really be useless for now I think), quicklinks, maybe petzl Tibloc for emergencies (learn to use them before you really need them), a Clipster or something like that, etc.


I haven't been canyoneering outside of Zion a lot because of the safe feeling I have in the Zion canyons. Most of them properly bolted or with existing natural anchors (check them of course), most of them relatively easily reachable, and many are visited daily. If the worst case scenario would happen, I think I'd have best chances in Zion. And of course Zion is terribly beautiful! Perfect place to learn canyoneering.
So I can't help you about Moab canyons.

Good luck with it, grtz

[Slot Machine]

Joe, welcome to Bogley!

Get her a pair of 5.10 canyoneers. Yes the ugly yellow ones. Their insoles suck, spend the extra bucks and install supportive insoles.

REI rope works fine, Tom's rope is better. Get her an Imlay Canyon Fire 200 footer and a couple 100 footers. This three rope combo is great for most trips because many canyons don't require a 200 foot rope. If you do need to bring it, you can use your 100 footers for a pull down cord.

Get her 4 Petzl William biners. They fit the Pirana and they are excellent because they rarely jam up when dirty. If you get some smaller biners, make sure they screwlock. Black Diamond has not perfected the screwlock yet, don't bother with their biners.

Get an Imlay rope bag for your 200 footer. I put off doing this for waaay too long. After you tangle a long rope a couple of times you will buy a rope bag anyway. Skip the tangles and learn from my mistake. Don't get a rope bag for a 100 foot rope, they don't tangle that easily.

Get an inexpensive BD harness, Momentum something or other. Spend 50-ish dollars They get beat up quickly, so don't break the bank.

Get rapid links from CAMP online. They are 3-4 bucks each.

Petzl helmets are great.

Don't bother with an autoblock. Instead, become skilled at adjusting friction. Practice rappelling in a safe place, perhaps with a belay, and you will be surprised how quickly you will become annoyed at autoblocks. Oh yeah, that fella died recently on a 15 foot rap due in part to an autoblock.

Get black, grey or dark green 1 inch webbing. They blend in better. Get her at least 100 feet.

Seal Line 20 liter drybags are tough, reliable and a practical size to carry stuff. Drybags are much tougher than drysacks. Drysacks don't last long in canyons.

4-5 Dyneema slings are a must.

Asics wrestling sleeves (not elbow pads) are great. So are the Mizuno knee pads.

Waterproof camera, waterproof headlamp, wetsuit, neoprene socks and gloves... :blahblah:

Bob

[COJoe]

Thanks guys!

I pored through the thread about the man who died getting caught in his autoblock (and subsequent strong opinions both for and against its use). I think I'll have to transition that one with some experience as I know I was holding onto it for dear life at first (and then getting annoyed at how hard it was to use when it got wet and sandy!).

And the shoes... yes, thank you! I recently read some info on the newer 5 10s so I'll definitely get those.

And looks like I'll be doing most of my shopping online. I might grab one of the 100' ropes from REI as I have a 20% coupon burning a hole in my pocket, though.

And I guess regarding the rope, I'll be descending on it as well (6'1" 190lbs), so will 8-9mm suffice?

[jeremy1701]

Hi,
I'm also new to canyoneering, but have a few things to offer from my research and lessons learned with buying my own new gear recently.



Go with 70m of rope (edit: See slot_machines recommendation for rope length). You won't be disappointed with the extra 10m and it's only a few bucks extra. As for size, I have both a 9.2 and an 8.3. I honestly cannot tell the difference. Get your rope from Tom or ZAC. I have 40' of 8mm from REI as a static line for top roping (PMI brand); I'd rap off of it, but it just doesn't have the same 'feel' as the other two. Below 70m, I think a rope bag is a luxury (you should have good rope management skills without the bag anyway).
For biners, make sure they're screw gate. I personally like the big BD Rocklock to block the clove hitch (it's massive at 4") and the Petzl Attache for my belay loop (slightly smaller at 3").
Petzl offers a women's helmet that fits pony tails. My wife loves it. (http://www.rei.com/product/830890/petzl-elia-climbing-helmet-womens)
For a pack, I modded my old Gregory hiking pack with some grommets and cut all the straps super short. It works great, but I can see it's going to take a beating. That being said, I used an Imlay this past weekend and it was way awesome. If you have the means, I'd get one for sure.
Definitely pick up some extra webbing, extra biners, and a few quicklinks.
To echo Maarten, get some sort of ascender (and also a set of prussics) and make sure you know how to use them.


Hope that helps!
Jeremy

[Iceaxe]

All my opinions...

The Petzl William Triact is the best biner on the planet for canyoneering.... it's now the only biner I use and I have NEVER had one jam (I can't say that about any other biner) and I've been using them for over 10 years. The biner is lightening fast to open and close, and can be operated with one hand. They cost a couple bucks more then other biners. I have no clue if they work on a Pirana.

Petzl William Triact
59951


For a harness the only thing I use any more is the BD Apline BOD. This is one of the few harnesses you can put on without sitting down. Which is nice the first time you have to put on a harness while standing in 2 feet of mud.

BD Apline BOD
59952


I use Tom's rope, packs and rope bags most of the time.... good products/good value per dollar spent.

My girls all wear the Petzl helmet mentioned above that works with a pony tail. It's the only way to fly if your woman has long hair. Tom sales them last time I checked.

Ropes - outside of Zion a 100' rope will probably become your most used rope. So the suggestion of (1) 200' and (2) 100' is a great start. On rappels up to 100' we carry (2) 100' ropes over a single 200' rope as it allows you to split up the load and the shorter ropes are easier to work through the short drops

:cool2:

[Slot Machine]

Go with 70m of rope (edit: See slot_machines recommendation for rope length). You won't be disappointed with the extra 10m and it's only a few bucks extra. As for size, I have both a 9.2 and an 8.3. I honestly cannot tell the difference. Get your rope from Tom or ZAC. I have 40' of 8mm from REI as a static line for top roping (PMI brand); I'd rap off of it, but it just doesn't have the same 'feel' as the other two. Below 70m, I think a rope bag is a luxury (you should have good rope management skills without the bag anyway).

There is a big difference; weight. 8.3mm is noticeably lighter.

200 feet, 230 feet, not a big difference. I can't think of a canyon where I wish I had that extra 30 feet. YMMV.

I also have an 8mm PMI rope that I've had for years, it soaks up some water but it is quite durable. I agree that it does have a nice feel. Not a terrible way to spend a 20% a coupon. Personally I would use the coupon on a helmet or harness and skip the REI ropes.

40' for top-roping? Static? Isn't a 20 foot wall still considered bouldering? :haha:

[Iceaxe]

I can't think of a canyon where I wish I had that extra 30 feet. YMMV.

x2

FWIW: I write all my beta to work with 200', 120', 100' and 60' ropes, because those are pretty standard lengths. I know most beta sprayers also write to those lengths. When I establish new routes or improve older routes, I work really hard to make sure the rappels fall into those perameters, I know others do also.

Anything over 200' means get out the 300' rope.... which to me mostly means Heaps.

YMMV :cool2:

[jeremy1701]

40' for top-roping? Static? Isn't a 20 foot wall still considered bouldering? :haha:

Good point! The 40'er is for building the top rope anchor. :haha: We use a dynamic rope for the actual climbing.

[Slot Machine]

Thanks guys!

I pored through the thread about the man who died getting caught in his autoblock (and subsequent strong opinions both for and against its use). I think I'll have to transition that one with some experience as I know I was holding onto it for dear life at first (and then getting annoyed at how hard it was to use when it got wet and sandy!).

And the shoes... yes, thank you! I recently read some info on the newer 5 10s so I'll definitely get those.

And looks like I'll be doing most of my shopping online. I might grab one of the 100' ropes from REI as I have a 20% coupon burning a hole in my pocket, though.

And I guess regarding the rope, I'll be descending on it as well (6'1" 190lbs), so will 8-9mm suffice?

The "dear life" grip will go away if you get out and practice for a couple of days and hone in your friction preference. Get an ATC and try it with two biners, or just one. Not saying it is better than a Pirana for you, it is just different. Try different ropes. Get 30-40 good rappels in and you will learn a lot about what friction setup you prefer. FWIW, we go to a climbing crag and practice with a fireman belay.

Also, I'm about your size and really like the 8.3mm Canyon Fire. I also have an Imlay 8mm that is kind of fast and scary, but it's new and still slick. I don't like ropes bigger than 9mm; just personal preference.

[Slot Machine]

Good point! The 40'er is for building the top rope anchor. :haha: We use a dynamic rope for the actual climbing.

Ah! Now that makes sense! :lol8:

[COJoe]

Awesome recs!! Can't thank you all enough!

So, it seems like the rope is the big start up expense. Well, that and the pack. And both seem like a good place to spend the extra dough. I think I'll be giving Tom a shout to order some ropes and packs.

The harness is interesting because I see plenty out there for over $100. Not the way to go, huh? Good, I'd rather put that money into other things like shoes and better ropes. The helmet is a must as she definitely has long hair.

I suppose one other thing to consider is a local refresher course. I'm pretty comfortable with knot tying and all that, but using an ascender is something I've never done and I trust you guys that learning when needed is not a good idea!

[peakbaggers]

:oops:

[COJoe]

Reality check: If I'm reading this right, she's gonna have a baby and 3 months later heading out to do canyons?? Don't think that's gonna happen! You won't be able to wean her from the baby that quick or find somebody to watch a 3 month old for an entire day while you go out and have fun. My son and his wife had a baby at end of March and are just now, maybe, going to get their first chance to get out for an entire day and actually do a short canyon. Don't intend to rain on your parade, but thought you need to be better mentally prepared for what's coming your way.

"bday" is coming up not "baby" coming up. :mrgreen:

[Brian in SLC]

Get her 4 Petzl William biners. They fit the Pirana and they are excellent because they rarely jam up when dirty. If you get some smaller biners, make sure they screwlock. Black Diamond has not perfected the screwlock yet, don't bother with their biners.

A pirana was really designed to be used with a Petzl carabiner, specifically "for use with a locking carabiner having a 12 mm cross-section (ATTACHE or WILLIAM)" (from the Petzl website).

I prefer my other locking carabiners to be Black Diamond. IMHO, with maybe a long discontinued exception, they've had screw gates dialed for some time. Their newer light weight rigs are super.

FWIW.

[Slot Machine]

A pirana was really designed to be used with a Petzl carabiner, specifically "for use with a locking carabiner having a 12 mm cross-section (ATTACHE or WILLIAM)" (from the Petzl website).

I prefer my other locking carabiners to be Black Diamond. IMHO, with maybe a long discontinued exception, they've had screw gates dialed for some time. Their newer light weight rigs are super.

FWIW.

Maybe I didn't describe my issue with BD binders clearly enough, they jam badly when sand gets into the screwgate. When they are clean they work fine. My William biners rarely jam when they are sandy, and the bearings in the screwgate are ultra smooth when they are clean. The cross-cut grip on the William screwgate is better as well, it's still grippy when wet. I have 3 or 4 types of BD screwgates and they all perform poorly in sandy canyon conditions.

[Iceaxe]

The harness is interesting because I see plenty out there for over $100.

Canyoneering is NOT like climbing with regards to a harness. Doing a typical canyon you probably spend less than 5 minutes a day actually hanging in your harness. Experienced canyoneers probably spend less than 2 minutes actually hanging in their harness.... so comfort isn't a high priority. Light weight, ease of use, expense and quick drying are more important.

Canyoneering is also great at destroying equipment. It's not uncommon for someone doing a moderate number of canyons each year to destroy a harness every year (somewhat dependant on where and what canyons you are descending).


:rockon:

[Brian in SLC]

Maybe I didn't describe my issue with BD binders clearly enough, they jam badly when sand gets into the screwgate. When they are clean they work fine. My William biners rarely jam when they are sandy, and the bearings in the screwgate are ultra smooth when they are clean. The cross-cut grip on the William screwgate is better as well, it's still grippy when wet. I have 3 or 4 types of BD screwgates and they all perform poorly in sandy canyon conditions.

Yeah, I guess I'd agree a bit with that, given the sand deal. I need to get some red dirt on my biners!

My fav's have been an old Wild Country with a large barrel and the old plastic twistlock DMMs with soom became 1/4 turn manuals.

Beat a Petzl Attache with a rock this summer to get it to unlock. Crazy stuck closed. Not a sand issue (clear water, granite canyon).

Have to say, even though I kinda destroyed my BD Momentum harness butt sliding in canyons, I like it. Comfy, and, for 50 bucks, hard to beat the price given the fit and features. Remains to be seen how the little plastic slider dealios work by the leg loops when under rough duress.

Bod harness, de-tuned by cutting the fleece off. You get the fatter leg straps in the back, more durable, belay loop. Great deal and, like Shane, I like how it goes on easy without having to step through leg loops (some of us are clutzy). For hiking long distance, I really like the fit as it doesn't bind over the top of my thighs.

If I were using a Pirana as my primary rappel device, or, was supporting my better half who was, I'd bump the rope diameter up to 9mm at a minimum. Single strand, wet or dry, that'd be a better choice IMHO than a skinny, slick rope that will surprise you on a free 60m rappel by having a surprising lack of friction. Also, fatter ropes are more tolerant to rock damage. And, in higher flow, you'll want to rig for wide open rappelling and fatter is nicer for that too. Those spendy Sterlings are nice cords...

I still am not a fan of the 5.10 canyoneers, but, they don't have much competition. I'd much prefer a nice approach shoe with some drainage than the poor fit and lack of durability (hate the buckles, too). Bulky.

Nothing nicer than a Imlay pack as a sweet piece of gear. Carry great. Drain like a dream. Price is nice.

Cheers!

[ratagonia]

The "dear life" grip will go away if you get out and practice for a couple of days and hone in your friction preference. Get an ATC and try it with two biners, or just one. Not saying it is better than a Pirana for you, it is just different. Try different ropes. Get 30-40 good rappels in and you will learn a lot about what friction setup you prefer. FWIW, we go to a climbing crag and practice with a fireman belay.

Also, I'm about your size and really like the 8.3mm Canyon Fire. I also have an Imlay 8mm that is kind of fast and scary, but it's new and still slick. I don't like ropes bigger than 9mm; just personal preference.

I use an autobloc ALL the time, when guiding. Otherwise, never. When you switch to going naked (ie, without the autobloc), set the pirana one setting higher friction. For a start. You might want to carry an Autobloc (VT Prusik) for special circumstances, but rapping 12 feet in a waterfall in the Subway is not one of those circumstances.

It really helps to have all your ropes be the same style, so you learn what friction setting works for you, and don't have to also make an adjustment based on the rope. Obviously, I think you should choose either the Canyon Fire or the Canyonero for that rope, but I also like the Canyon Pro (shhhh, don't tell anyone).

I think a ropebag is MORE important for the smaller rope (120' now is standard, at least from me), since that is the rope you use the most. Bagarino's rule! - and they last a long time so overall are a good value. I'm sorry they are somewhat expensive, but I design them FIRST for functioning really well and the cost is what the cost comes out to.

You may have noticed that male and female brains tend to put emphasis on different things. Your wife might prefer, among all these possibilities, a one day course for the two of you. Even if you took a ZAC one-day course, now that you have some context, the specific technical material will make a lot more sense, and you will be able to learn much faster/deeper.

Of course, a new wetsuit also goes over pretty well.

Tom :moses:

[Slot Machine]

I use an autobloc ALL the time, when guiding. Otherwise, never. When you switch to going naked (ie, without the autobloc), set the pirana one setting higher friction. For a start. You might want to carry an Autobloc (VT Prusik) for special circumstances, but rapping 12 feet in a waterfall in the Subway is not one of those circumstances.

Well, I'm not an expert. Tom is. Take his words more seriously than mine.

I'll amend what I said with one more thought; autoblocks come in handy once in a while and it is good to practice using one.

One time we were faced with a 160 foot free-hanging rappel when a freak snowstorm hit. The rope quickly became icy and my hands were frozen. Losing control was at the front of my mind. That was a good situation to have a trustworthy autoblock (i.e. cut the right length) that I've practiced with several times. I went first and "tested" it on the way down by letting the autoblock grab the rope as if I were to let go. It would have held and I'm glad I had it that day.

So, practice using an autoblock too. I was wrong by implying to never use one at all. They do come in handy, but knowing how to adjust friction is much more useful.

[ratagonia]

So, practice using an autoblock too. They do come in handy, but knowing how to adjust friction is much more useful.

:2thumbs:

And a bottom belay.

Tom

[COJoe]

I definitely understand the point about the autoblock. I figure having one available and using it on longer raps is just going to make us feel more comfortable right now, but an awareness of the dangers of it is also important. It's all about the short length from what I gather and not using it in water (and maybe having a knife in an ankle sheath available).

The rope size is my biggest choice now. I can't remember what we used at ZAC rentals (10mm perhaps?), but I definitely want to try different types and see. I figure I can go for a little larger size for the first rope and decide from there. Probably best to choose a couple routes at first that have shorter raps and take into consideration slickness and fastness (two terms I didn't think about while learning).

Can't deny, shopping for toys is fun stuff!!

[Iceaxe]

Just a quick warning about new ropes.... they are FAST!

The first couple dozen rappels on a new rope are normally really fast until the rope breaks in so dial in a little extra friction the first few rappels.

:cool2:

[ratagonia]

Just a quick warning about new ropes.... they are FAST!

The first couple dozen rappels on a new rope are normally really fast until the rope breaks in so dial in a little extra friction the first few rappels.

:cool2:

Good point Ice.

I have a short article on choosing a diameter here: http://imlaycanyongear.com/ropes2.php

which may or may not be helpful.

Tom

[ratagonia]

I definitely understand the point about the autoblock. I figure having one available and using it on longer raps is just going to make us feel more comfortable right now, but an awareness of the dangers of it is also important. It's all about the short length from what I gather and not using it in water (and maybe having a knife in an ankle sheath available).

The rope size is my biggest choice now. I can't remember what we used at ZAC rentals (10mm perhaps?), but I definitely want to try different types and see. I figure I can go for a little larger size for the first rope and decide from there. Probably best to choose a couple routes at first that have shorter raps and take into consideration slickness and fastness (two terms I didn't think about while learning).

Can't deny, shopping for toys is fun stuff!!

Your ZAC LOANER was likely either a BlueWater Canyon pro 8.0mm or an Imlay 8.0; or maybe an Imlay 8.3mm Canyon Fire. Well-used.

Tom

[COJoe]

Great info, thanks!

I kind of figured going through a "break-in" period with the rope was necessary. Didn't realize that we were already using an 8mm or so rope, though. That changes things some.

Considering where we'll be playing at first (no water, some sharp rock edges, lots a dirt!), I'm leaning towards the 9.2mm Canyonero, but I think I gotta run to REI and feel the difference. A little recon mission, if you will.

Regardless, I'll take into consideration the fastness of the rope on our first rappels and set friction accordingly.

[ratagonia]

Great info, thanks!

I kind of figured going through a "break-in" period with the rope was necessary. Didn't realize that we were already using an 8mm or so rope, though. That changes things some.

Considering where we'll be playing at first (no water, some sharp rock edges, lots a dirt!), I'm leaning towards the 9.2mm Canyonero, but I think I gotta run to REI and feel the difference. A little recon mission, if you will.

Regardless, I'll take into consideration the fastness of the rope on our first rappels and set friction accordingly.

Canyonero is available at Neptune Mountaineering in Boulder.

Tom

[Iceaxe]

I think I gotta run to REI and feel the difference. A little recon mission, if you will.

In the world of ropes the feel of the rope in called "hand". And this "hand" is the crux of manufacturing and selling ropes, because a good hand in the store doesn't make for a good rope in the field. Ropes have to be broken-in and have a much different hand after they have been used 10 or 20 times.

A lot of manufacturers actually sell inferior ropes to what they are really capable of producing just to get a nice hand in the store, because if they don't have a good hand in the store no one buys their product.

Anyhoo.... the real test you should be looking for is how does the rope feel when it is half way through its life cycle, and how durable is it, not how it feels on the store shelf or first time out.

[COJoe]

I'm mostly going to check diameter width. However, doing some more research I think my only concern now has to to do with what will work best in the piranha as it seems they're best for either skinnier ropes for double strand raps and single strand raps at minimum 9mm which rules out the Canyon Fire (of course, Z rigging looks easy enough with some practice).

Now, with Tom's comment about ZAC rentals and looking through my Zion photos, we definitely were using a Canyon Fire rope or something similar in size (ascertained by the fact that the rope was red/yellow and looks identical to CUSA's online photos).

Admittedly, we're not at a level where I would feel comfortable doing any single strand raps right now without some more training. The first few routes we'll do with the new gear will certainly be double-strand raps no bigger than 60'. And that seems to bode well for the skinnier rope. Of course, as I'm sure you all can attest to, those 60'ers will soon enough turn into 100+'ers and I just want to be sure that what I grab now is a rope I can get comfortable with its diameter.

[Eric Holden]

I'm mostly going to check diameter width. However, doing some more research I think my only concern now has to to do with what will work best in the piranha as it seems they're best for either skinnier ropes for double strand raps and single strand raps at minimum 9mm which rules out the Canyon Fire (of course, Z rigging looks easy enough with some practice).


For what its worth, I have use my Pirana with 8.5mm single stranded and 10.5mm double stranded and it has always worked great using only the friction adjustments mentioned in the "Manual" for the Pirana. FYI, I am 300lbs.

[ratagonia]

I'm mostly going to check diameter width. However, doing some more research I think my only concern now has to to do with what will work best in the piranha as it seems they're best for either skinnier ropes for double strand raps and single strand raps at minimum 9mm which rules out the Canyon Fire (of course, Z rigging looks easy enough with some practice).

Now, with Tom's comment about ZAC rentals and looking through my Zion photos, we definitely were using a Canyon Fire rope or something similar in size (ascertained by the fact that the rope was red/yellow and looks identical to CUSA's online photos).

Admittedly, we're not at a level where I would feel comfortable doing any single strand raps right now without some more training. The first few routes we'll do with the new gear will certainly be double-strand raps no bigger than 60'. And that seems to bode well for the skinnier rope. Of course, as I'm sure you all can attest to, those 60'ers will soon enough turn into 100+'ers and I just want to be sure that what I grab now is a rope I can get comfortable with its diameter.

Big or Small, single or double - it is possible to screw up any version of rappelling. What is more important is knowing what you are doing, specifically, how to rig your rappel device for the rope in front of you.

Opinion: The Pirana is the most flexible rappel device, offering several different and easy to understand friction settings for different situations / ropes / person weights / rappel geometries. It is designed primarily for single line rappels, using european canyoneering ropes. This last: while euro ropes are nominally bigger, they are also softer so they are functionally smaller than their stated diameters. So a Europ 9.6mm ropes probably rappels a lot like the 8.3mm Canyon Fire. The Imlay ropes are "hard", so they rappel a little bigger than their diameter (in a sense).

I am 180 lbs (on a good day) and use 8mm and 8.3mm ropes almost entirely, and love using a pirana. Yes, on longish rappels I also add a leg loop biner, then a Z-rig, but in general, a Pirana works great for me. I like my rappel device set up with a lot of friction/a lot of control. If you are 180-200 lbs or more, you might prefer the ATS, which works much the same, but starts out with one level more friction (or two levels more, using the convex side.

So, yeah, where was I...

If you are uncertain, I encourage you to go to the larger diameter Canyonero. If you are uncomfortable with single-strand rappelling - that's OK, but you might want to get comfortable with it. It's mostly a matter of finding the friction setting that works for you with X rope and Y device. (A bottom belay is a great tool for dialing in this setting).

Tom

[ilipichicuma]

Just my two cents here: The cheapest harness I have ever been able to find is the Mammut Mirage. I got mine for like 30 dollars on Amazon a while back. Fits awesome and has held up to abuse pretty well. Otherwise I echo what everyone else has said. I love the Sterling ATS, but it's functionally very similar to the Pirana, outside of the curved shape, and if you're not fat like me you don't really need that extra. Also, the speed of your rope isn't entirely dependent on the thickness, like they've been saying. We have an Eidelweiss canyon rope (don't get it, it kind of sucks) that's 9.5 mm and it's faster than the 8.3 Imlay Canyon ropes I've rappelled on. It's got a really slippery sheath, and I think that's what does it. The Bluewater Canyon Pro is a kickawesome rope, but it is really expensive. My friend has a 300 footer and it has awesome friction and weighs less than his Imlay Canyon 200 footer.

[COJoe]

Once again I just want to thank everyone for their awesome advice. Placed my order for a 120' Canyonero, Spry Bag, and Bagarino a few minutes ago and also picked up a helmet, 4 biners, pirana, and gloves. I think that's a pretty good start (and we gotta go try the harness on due to return policies).

Now, I gotta get all my gear :eek2:!

[ratagonia]

The Bluewater Canyon Pro is a kickawesome rope, but it is really expensive. My friend has a 300 footer and it has awesome friction and weighs less than his Imlay Canyon 200 footer.



I realize we are in the prezzy campaign period where "facts" is a fuzzy concept. But on this issue, no need to exaggerate:

Imlay 8.3 Canyon Fire - 57.3 grams per meter = 7.7 lbs / 200 feet.

BW 8.0 Canyon Pro - 42 grams per meter = 8.46 lbs / 300 feet.

I too am a fan of the BW Canyon Pro, but... I don't know what you mean by "awesome friction". When new, the Canyon Pros are very, very fast. Once they are broken in, they are quite good, but still small and fast.

Tom :moses:

[ilipichicuma]

I too am a fan of the BW Canyon Pro, but... I don't know what you mean by "awesome friction". When new, the Canyon Pros are very, very fast. Once they are broken in, they are quite good, but still small and fast.

Tom :moses:

Wasn't bagging on your ropes, Tom, I love them. Also, I've mostly only used the Canyon Pro in waterfalls, which makes a big difference friction-wise, so I guess I don't totally know what I'm talking about in regards to friction. I haven't found the rope to be super fast, though. Using it in my ATS, it's been perfect. And as far as weight is concerned, I can't say I've weighed them, so I bow to your greater knowledge on that, as well.

[mzamp]

It really helps to have all your ropes be the same style, so you learn what friction setting works for you, and don't have to also make an adjustment based on the rope. Obviously, I think you should choose either the Canyon Fire or the Canyonero for that rope, but I also like the Canyon Pro (shhhh, don't tell anyone).


Oops - I have a canyon pro ds 8.0, canyon fire 8.2, and a canyon 9.0

[ratagonia]

And as far as weight is concerned,


When you have questions of fact, or find yourself on the verge of stating something factual, you might find this website useful (I use it all the time):

http://www.google.com

:naughty:

Tom

[spinesnaper]

COJoe

This is great canyoneering advice. To this may I also respectful recommend that no matter how much your wife loves canyoneering, perhaps you should also remember a special dinner and flowers. No matter how a pony-tail-accommodating Petzl helmet says you love her, there is still nothing like flowers and a special dinner to remind her how thoughtful you are. Just saying.:nod:

Ken

[ghawk]

The Bluewater Canyon Pro is a kickawesome rope, but it is really expensive. My friend has a 300 footer and it has awesome friction and weighs less than his Imlay Canyon 200 footer.

Actually it's the Canyon extreme rope I have Cliff. I checked online and the weight lines up with the pro's though, so Tom's right. It is a very light rope for it's length though. As Far as friction goes, It is a little slicker than other ropes and I like it. I got it for my wedding last year through a friend who had a good deal and other friends who pitched in. Would I ever buy it? probably not, but it's an awesome rope if it's worth it to you. For me, I'll probably keep buying Imlay ropes because they're made of good materials, not the lightest, but much less of a hit on the wallet. :cool2:

[spinesnaper]

Canyoneering is NOT like climbing with regards to a harness. Doing a typical canyon you probably spend less than 5 minutes a day actually hanging in your harness. Experienced canyoneers probably spend less than 2 minutes actually hanging in their harness.... so comfort isn't a high priority. Light weight, ease of use, expense and quick drying are more important.
:rockon:

I thought this too until the first time I actually had to ascend a rope in a real canyon. After that I came to appreciate the value of a little padding over, pardon the expression, a "butt floss" harness that weights next to nothing. I realized a few extra ounces for the benefit of comfort may be worthwhile.:haha:

Ken

[penmartens]

As a woman, may I ring in on this thread? I am a little late since you have already placed your order with Tom.
I think your wife will enjoy and appreciate the Leprechaun more than the Spry. The Lep is the best pack ever made in the entire world. It will be her go-to pack for every canyon possible. I have owned 5 to date.
None of the other ICG packs fit women her size very well. She may spend more time kicking and cussing that pack than saying, 'thanks, dear'. I suggest you keep the Spry for yourself and let her borrow/ trade with you on occasion to see if she would like a Spry of her own.
The 5.10 Canyoneers are horrible shoes. I own a pair and have used them 6 times in ten years. Wow, are they really holding up. I have descended hundreds of canyons in my Merrill Moab Ventilators. They are wonderful, fit well, and stick to the rock well. After a dozen years, Merrill has dumbed down the quality of this particular shoe. I am in the market for another comfortable but good for canyon shoe. I have my eye on a Keen. If you wore ZAC's shoes, you probably wore the bumble bees, felt their sting, and know if they will be good/bad for you.
A simple harness is the best harness for canyons. The Alpine Bod is good, but any basic harness will do. The fewer bells and whistles the better. I don't think you need to worry about a women's specific harness since they are all so adjustable.

May I suggest if you are going to spend the time and money to get 'real' canyon gear, that you also spend the time (1 hour extra) to drive to North Wash and do 'real' canyons? There are over 45 canyons accessible from that area and well over half of them are beginner canyons.

Dave keeps me mostly supplied with all my canyoning needs, but I am going to agree with Spinesnaper. Perhaps a silky/lacey something tucked into the mesh pocket of the Lep would be appropriate. (Tom will not be able to help you with this.)

Lastly, I would like to caution you about canyoning with just the two of you. If you are interested, I would be glad to host a canyoneering couple weekend in Nov.

Penny

[COJoe]

Well, I guess I gotta come clean... this present is actually a group gift from all of her friends. I'm merely facilitating the purchase and covering any difference. Her real present is a 25 person cocktail party I'm hosting and cooking for so I'm definitely covered for her birthday.

Penny, thank you for the female perspective! Good to know about the pack and, honestly, I went with the Spry as it was right in the middle of the other packs offered and really just want to get a feel for it myself. I kind of thought it looked big so there's no problem with me taking that one and getting her something easier to lug. And thanks for the info about North Wash. I'm not entirely sure where we'll be heading for our first outing with the new gear yet (or when), but I definitely appreciate the advice and the offer. I'd love to try and meet up with some of you once we're a little more "seasoned."

Joe

[Slot Machine]

Well, I guess I gotta come clean... this present is actually a group gift from all of her friends. I'm merely facilitating the purchase and covering any difference. Her real present is a 25 person cocktail party I'm hosting and cooking for so I'm definitely covered for her birthday.

Nice! :2thumbs:

I thought of one more thing to add to your list; a Personal Anchor System. They are quite handy when dealing with anchors that have some exposure (think Zion), very strong and adjustable, I consider it a must have piece of equiptment.

http://www.metoliusclimbing.com/pas_personal_anchor_system.html

[Mountaineer]

Purcell Prusik. Adjustable, and releasable under load.

[ratagonia]

Nice! :2thumbs:

I thought of one more thing to add to your list; a Personal Anchor System. They are quite handy when dealing with anchors that have some exposure (think Zion), very strong and adjustable, I consider it a must have piece of equiptment.

http://www.metoliusclimbing.com/pas_personal_anchor_system.html

YUCK!!!!

Oh, sorry. SOME people can like that. I call them Big Wall Climbers. For canyoneering, it is clumsy, slow, and in some conditions dangerous. Having a lot of crap hanging off your harness is a really bad idea. So don't.

Yes, you should have something for clipping in - a safety leash. But for canyoneering, it should be short and compact. If you need something longer, then add a sling to the ANCHOR, not to yourself. That way the 'longer thing' can be used by your entire team.

Why would it need to be adjustable in length? There are few hanging rappel stations in Canyoneering.

Tom :moses:

[Slot Machine]

YUCK!!!!

Oh, sorry. SOME people can like that. I call them Big Wall Climbers. For canyoneering, it is clumsy, slow, and in some conditions dangerous. Having a lot of crap hanging off your harness is a really bad idea. So don't.

Yes, you should have something for clipping in - a safety leash. But for canyoneering, it should be short and compact. If you need something longer, then add a sling to the ANCHOR, not to yourself. That way the 'longer thing' can be used by your entire team.

Why would it need to be adjustable in length? There are few hanging rappel stations in Canyoneering.

Tom :moses:

When could a PAS be dangerous? (not being a wise guy, I really want to know)

Is this not a safety leash? Tomayto, tomahto? I'm also not a fan of keeping excessive crap on my harness, I keep my PAS in my bag until I need it.

When using it, once I'm ready to rappel, I'll unclip it from the anchor and throw every other loop of the PAS on a biner to keep it out of the way. Once at the bottom of the rap I throw it back in my bag. Super easy.


"Why would it need to be adjustable in length?"

When dealing with bolted anchors I find it helpful for my harness to be limited to a precise radius around the anchor. (I'm talking semi-hanging or exposed anchors.) Not too close, not too far. At my job they call that an "ergonomic workspace". :haha: Also, if one is unfortunate enough to slip at an anchor, then who would want to fall further than they have to?

Bob

[Brian in SLC]

Oh, sorry. SOME people can like that. I call them Big Wall Climbers. For canyoneering, it is clumsy, slow, and in some conditions dangerous. Having a lot of crap hanging off your harness is a really bad idea. So don't.

Yes, you should have something for clipping in - a safety leash. But for canyoneering, it should be short and compact. If you need something longer, then add a sling to the ANCHOR, not to yourself. That way the 'longer thing' can be used by your entire team.

Why would it need to be adjustable in length? There are few hanging rappel stations in Canyoneering.

Quite a few stations which are exposed...IMHO. Heaps? I'd start that last series of rappels with a PAS or similar, pre-rigged, every time.

I'm not a fan of the PAS to be used all the time, but, as an anchor rig, I like it. Dislike daisy chains, which I still see a bunch of folks out there using (BD video would cure them, I'd think).

For the multi stage clip in thing, nice to have a PAS style rig. Especially if you're manning a station as others pass by. Also, useful for clipping in multiple spots on anchors which either don't end in a single point, or, to keep said single point clear for the rope.

PAS can be shortened easily, by just eatin' the loops up.

I do like the Imlay clipster. But, being limited to one short length doesn't always answer the mail either. Especially on traverses, when a couple of rigs are nice (ala the Petzl double thingy).

I see folks in canyon and climbing with a double PAS or daisy chain wad clipped to their harness....and...for most stuff, just seems way cluttered.

[Brian in SLC]

Always interesting to do canyons with a variety of folks...and...see what the seasoned do and how they rig, what they carry on their harness...

60119

Luca. I wonder if the caving background has something to do with an ascender prerigged and at the ready? Nifty.

Also has tethers, which, ain't no foolin' around tethers.

60120

Sonny. I think he's sportin' one of those Petzl double thingys (speleogica or some such)?

Both these guys are rigged for a specific type of canyon...and...when I've seen them in action, there's been plenty of very exposed anchor locations, some with via ferrata type traverses. Having a tether or two was super nifty.

I'd say they both have a fair amount of experience in canyons...ha ha...

[burley]

Dislike daisy chains, which I still see a bunch of folks out there using (BD video would cure them, I'd think).



http://vimeo.com/14679471

[Eric Holden]

http://vimeo.com/14679471

I use one all the time for both climbing and Canyoneering. Easy answer, don't do what is in the video. If you are shock loading your daisy chain you are doing something wrong to begin with.

[ratagonia]

I use one all the time for both climbing and Canyoneering. Easy answer, don't do what is in the video. If you are shock loading your daisy chain you are doing something wrong to begin with.

It's not about shock-loading, entirely. Hope you picked up on that.

As I recall (always dubious), you are on the heftier side, which makes you substantially more vulnerable to the limitations of a daisy chain.

I too have another take-away, which I am implementing immediately. I will no longer construct daisy chains using scotch tape. My contribution to safety in the canyons... :cool2:

Tom

[ratagonia]

When could a PAS be dangerous? (not being a wise guy, I really want to know)

Junk hanging from your harness can get hung up on stuff. Dry canyons this can be annoying, require rescue even, but not dangerous.

But in wet flowing canyons, junk on your harness can get hung up behind you and trap you in the water. There's been a few near-misses lately; one death in the Sierra seems like it was because of that. Ian the Knapster in Australia might have been because of that. The death this summer in a river is Switzerland might have been because of that... or was it a foot trap.

Perhaps it is over-exagerated. Perhaps I have too vivid an imagination. Junk hanging from your harness can get stuck.

But really, yes, some stuff will be hanging from your harness. Extra long things become troublesome. The PAS can be clipped up easier than some things. Some people I see with a daisy pass it around their back and clip on the other side. Yikes! having a strong loop behind you, out of sight, ready to catch on things... like I said, I have a vivid imagination.



Is this not a safety leash? Tomayto, tomahto? I'm also not a fan of keeping excessive crap on my harness, I keep my PAS in my bag until I need it.

Sigh... guess I have a lot of pet peeves these days, perhaps proportional to how much my back hurts (after my second beer - not much). WTF good is your safety leash if it is not attached to your harness. Yeah, you don't need it every moment of every day... but I keep my short, tidy little safety leash on my harness 24/7/365. When I want it, it is just there. Instantly.

Perhaps if your safety leash was tidy and small, you would not consider it a PITA to keep on your harness 100% of the time?



When using it, once I'm ready to rappel, I'll unclip it from the anchor and throw every other loop of the PAS on a biner to keep it out of the way. Once at the bottom of the rap I throw it back in my bag. Super easy.

As the guy who sits at the anchor and checks everyone before they launch off, I can tell you this is slow slow slow. Wearisome. Yes, we are not in a hurry, but WASTING time waiting for each person in the party to "clip up" their daisy or PAS, usually with one hand - while I watch and wait... and wait... and wait...

(Presidential Debate Night - exaggeration is in the air...)

But really, it takes considerable time, time lost.



When dealing with bolted anchors I find it helpful for my harness to be limited to a precise radius around the anchor. (I'm talking semi-hanging or exposed anchors.) Not too close, not too far. At my job they call that an "ergonomic workspace". :haha: Also, if one is unfortunate enough to slip at an anchor, then who would want to fall further than they have to?

Bob

Yes, but...

There are other ways to achieve this result. I like hooking slings into the anchor then clipping with my short, tidy leash. Other people can clip in at the same point. Easy.

Well, hopefully made my point. There is a large degree of personal preference in this... mine happens to be short and tidy... I mean, my leash, my preference is short and tidy.

Tom :moses:

[ratagonia]

As a woman, may I ring in on this thread? I am a little late since you have already placed your order with Tom.

I think your wife will enjoy and appreciate the Leprechaun more than the Spry. The Lep is the best pack ever made in the entire world. It will be her go-to pack for every canyon possible. I have owned 5 to date.

None of the other ICG packs fit women her size very well. She may spend more time kicking and cussing that pack than saying, 'thanks, dear'. I suggest you keep the Spry for yourself and let her borrow/ trade with you on occasion to see if she would like a Spry of her own.

Thank you Penny, I think.

Those who are short and/or curvy will find the Spry (and Mystery) to fit better if you take the plastic sheet out, to make the back more flexible. Penny kinda specializes in narrow canyons, so would have less use for larger packs - your wife may or may not find the skinnies to her taste. Perhaps Kevin and Julie would pipe in, as they have done a few in North Wash and things elsewhere, and are also new(ish) to the sport.



May I suggest if you are going to spend the time and money to get 'real' canyon gear, that you also spend the time (1 hour extra) to drive to North Wash and do 'real' canyons? There are over 45 canyons accessible from that area and well over half of them are beginner canyons.

Lastly, I would like to caution you about canyoning with just the two of you. If you are interested, I would be glad to host a canyoneering couple weekend in Nov.


Gotta agree on these points. Canyoneering in North Wash tends to be very social - the canyons work well for that, and considerable time around the campfire helps too.

Tom :moses:

[deagol]

Coming from Denver, better budget a LOT of $$$ for gas, as it's a 500 mile round trip just to Grand Junction. It's a long way to drive from the Front Range.. This does make a difference after a few trips, as it becomes clear that it's not the most practical hobby depending on where you live. Not as bad as getting into alpine skiing if you are from Florida, but still, it's a pain

[Slot Machine]

Well, hopefully made my point. There is a large degree of personal preference in this... mine happens to be short and tidy... I mean, my leash, my preference is short and tidy.

Tom :moses:

:roflol:4 star effort in the funny department.

As Brian pointed out, there are many ways to skin that cat. I'm always looking for a better way to do things. Perhaps I'll try your approach the next time we head out, it doesn't sound like too much of a PITA. :haha: Thanks for sharing. :2thumbs:

Bob

[COJoe]

Coming from Denver, better budget a LOT of $$$ for gas, as it's a 500 mile round trip just to Grand Junction. It's a long way to drive from the Front Range.. This does make a difference after a few trips, as it becomes clear that it's not the most practical hobby depending on where you live. Not as bad as getting into alpine skiing if you are from Florida, but still, it's a pain

You're definitely right. I can get to Moab in 6 hours and it's definitely a good jumping off point, but it's certainly something I need to plan. Another hour further, though, doesn't really matter once I'm in the area.

Of course, I can get to Zion in 9 hours...

[ratagonia]

You're definitely right. I can get to Moab in 6 hours and it's definitely a good jumping off point, but it's certainly something I need to plan. Another hour further, though, doesn't really matter once I'm in the area.

Of course, I can get to Zion in 9 hours...

A nice thing about Zion and North Wash is that both of them do not require a 4WD, so the econo-sedan can be used for the long drive.

Tom

[Iceaxe]

the econo-sedan can be used for the long drive.

:lol8:

What is this econo-sedan of which you speak?

[ratagonia]

:lol8:

What is this econo-sedan of which you speak?

like this???

[Iceaxe]

like this???

Just curious.... where do you put you penis when you're driving something like that? :ne_nau:


:roflol: :roflol: :roflol:

[Brian in SLC]

Oh...my...goodness...

ROTFLMAO!

Bad, but, pretty funny.

Tom, you don't need to answer that!

I mean, do those things have bench seats? Ha ha!

Best quit while we're ahead...

[velveteen]

Those who are short and/or curvy will find the Spry (and Mystery) to fit better if you take the plastic sheet out, to make the back more flexible. Penny kinda specializes in narrow canyons, so would have less use for larger packs - your wife may or may not find the skinnies to her taste. Perhaps Kevin and Julie would pipe in, as they have done a few in North Wash and things elsewhere, and are also new(ish) to the sport.



Tom :moses:

I'm a bit delayed in chiming in here, but I do have some feedback on the Spry pack. We've been through about 5 canyons with the Spry's - all were day trips. They work really well for both Kevin and myself and we're very different in size (I'm small, 5'4"). At first I found it didn't fit well around the neck/shoulder area, but after some strap-length adjustments and assuring that the waist and chest straps were always buckled, it's comfortable all day. In fact, it comes with us on hiking trips now too. I haven't taken the plastic sheet out because I like the support and weight distribution, but I imagine that might be pretty comfortable.

I agree that the Spry is a bit big for the skinny canyons but it's the perfect size otherwise.

Julie