Show-Don't-Tell

[Iceaxe]

Here are some of my current thoughts on the "show-don't-tell" method of distributing canyon beta.

From my experience show-don't-tell has a positive effect on the canyon in the short term but a larger degrading effect long term. The problem is sooner or later the genie gets out of the bottle. Word spreads pretty quickly about a great new slot... I mean really, what's a couple years one way or the other in the total life span of a canyon?

Canyoneers go loaded for bear when descending slots where they don't have reliable beta. This results in both excessive bolting and rope grooves. Unbetaed descents have a huge pucker factor added in and once canyoneers reach the limit of their skills or the old pucker factor ramps up maintaining a pristine canyon becomes secondary to getting everyone out in one piece.

Lack of reliable beta creates numerous social trails as folks wander around looking for entrances, exits and rappel stations. Good beta establishes a good entrance and egress from the canyon that limits environmental impact.

Lack of beta creates problems with land owners, private property, Indian nations and land managers as more canyoneers "discover" the slot. Good beta has adreesed the issue before being released.

Show-don't-tell canyons do not provide set and established ethics for a particular slot or canyon system. The problem is not with those shown the slot, but with those that figure it out and go hunting on their own. The canyon ethics are not written down and established from the beginning, which again causes problems down the road.

But bottom line.... I do not like being "guided" through a canyon, which is what show-don't-tell really is.

Not really an up-side or down-side but just a fact..... Show-don't-tell creates and interesting underworld where beta on "secret" slots is swapped, bartered and traded at a crazy rate and frequency. The only currency required to gain access is knowledge of one "off the radar slot" and you have enough coinage to trade for 3 or 4 more.... by trading one canyon you can increase your database exponentially in a very short period of time. A large number of canyoneers will trade their mother for beta on a "new" slot.

Anyhoo.... that's my 2 cents.... YMMV.... feel free to agree or not.... ready, set, go....

:soapbox:

[Slot Machine]

ready, set, go....

:coffee:

Heck man, even I am bored with this topic. Don't you know that the new trendy way to piss people off is to tell them that thier new innovative retrievable anchor sucks? :haha:

[Iceaxe]

Heck man, even I am bored with this topic.

I actually wrote that for something else, but decided to post it here where more than six people would actually read it.... I didn't want to see my brilliance wasted.... :lol8:



Don't you know that the new trendy way to piss people off is to tell them that thier new innovative retrievable anchor sucks? :haha:

Stay tuned for my next article "Silly Canyon Tricks"..... I need to hurry and get it posted so when someone dies I can point to it and say "told ya so"... :fitz:

[SRG]

Don't you know that the new trendy way to piss people off is to tell them that thier new innovative retrievable anchor sucks?

:roflol::lol8:

[Slot Machine]

I actually wrote that for something else, but decided to post it here where more than six people would actually read it.... I didn't want to see my brilliance wasted.... :lol8:


Out of morbid curiosity, where would 6 other people read this? Yahoo Canyons Group? Are there 6 people still over there? :haha:

[Iceaxe]

http://www.bogley.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=38765&d=1288294312

[Deathcricket]

No opinion... I only do fully bolted canyons that people have told me are awesome and I know I have enough rope to get down and tricks to survive. I even get nervous rapping off the sketchy anchors like in Imlay and Upper Echo. Someone needs to replace those puppies IMO. So screw dieing, not worth it. Zero interest in looking for an "off the radar" canyon. If it's interesting, sooner or later it will be on the radar with published info. I can wait.

[outsider]

OK, sorry for breaking into your fun guys, but I have a question for Iceaxe: can you provide some concrete examples for your arguments? Your points sound reasonable, but I'd like to hear more about the evidence they are based upon. Thanks.
-john

[Iceaxe]

I'd like to hear more about the evidence they are based upon.

How about we start with one of the most basic canyons most of us know of? How about Mystery Canyon in Zion NP? Before reliable beta was available the canyon bottom was a maze of braided social trails and the slot itself was a huge bolt garden, most of which were not safe. Mystery is a more pristine canyon these days than it was in the late 90's before reliable public beta was available. The elimination of the social trails was a direct result of the beta sprayers getting together and agreeing to keep everyone in the watercourse.

Most of you came along after the real bolt wars... where bolts were being placed and chopped weekly in large numbers. The release of accurate beta detailing the ethics of a specific area pretty much ended the Bolt Wars.... the fight over Escalante was epic.... yeah, we still have a minor squirmish every now and then, but nothing like in the days of the major Bolt Wars.

The top of Meek's Mesa looked like a buffalo heard had come through with all the social trails of those looking for Pandora's Box. Yes, there are still social trails, but they are now few and everyone is now sticking to the same trails as everyone starts out pointed in the same direction....

Anyhoo... that's just a few off the top of my head.

And just to be clear... the problem's with "Show-Don't-Tell" are not in the beginning with those "guided" through.... the real problem appears when word starts to leak out and the unwashed started searching for and descending the "secert" canyon...

:popcorn:

[yetigonecrazy]

I know nobody cares about my opinion but since it is a group discussion, I will add my thoughts....

I understand the thought and logic behind a "show-don't tell" canyon and a "secret" canyon. I don't disagree with the idea of wanting to keep these special places to ourselves, in the (misguided) thinking that "if we dont talk asbout it, nobody will ever go there". Because places like that are to be treasured. Nobody likes to go into a place like Little Wild Horse and see five hundred names, random lines, and tic tac toe games [nice touch, btw] scratched into the rock. And unfortunately, that's sometimes what happens when wild places become "known". And it is because of this that people then clam up and try to hide info about everything they can.

I can understand the desire to let others experience the idea of a "no beta" descent, just as you did. That appeals to a lot of people. However, when somebody wants to do a canyon, it isn't like they are FORCED to read the beta. If you want to go do a no beta canyon, find where one is on the map, and go do it. You can go without reading beta. So for example, let's take a canyon, like say, one of the Egypts. You can find where they are on a map, and go there, and drop in with little clue as to what is below you. Sure, sounds dangerous to someone who has been there before.......But what about you? What about the folks that did the first descent in the canyon? Is what you did any less dangerous, or is the danger any more moderated because you were on an "exploratory" descent? How is choosing NOT to find the beta, and just dealing with what you are faced with, somehow now more dangerous? Like Neo says, the problem is choice.

I don't believe that you should spray beta loosely with no regard for anyone or anything. What I think is everyone should be responsible on a case-by-case basis for distributing beta on their own terms. If someone is asking about a canyon, whether publicly or privately, take a look at the situation. Is the asker going to spread it around with no regard? Is he or she going to be responsible with the info? In most situations, the price and level it takes to answer "yes" to those is by a) going canyoneering with or b) bartering info on other canyons. Which is fine if thats what you want to do. Here's the problem: what about the folks who are responsible, and know how to appreciate the beta that is being given to them, but don't have a twenty-year resume of "secret" canyons of their own? Is it an elitist club where only those who have been exploring for years and have a portfolio of those types of canyons are allowed entry? What about someone who has done White Canyon/Mystery/Raven/Choprock/Poe/Zero Gravity/Chambers etc etc, and has the experience, but has never done anything "secret"? Are they just left out in the cold because they don't have "credit" of their own? I feel sometimes like the canyoneering world is a very closed off, raised up club, where the members that have been doing it for twenty years are totally friendly and free with each other, and that newbies and those interested are met with skepticism, disdain, and even outright hostility. I've felt unwelcome on Bogley before, been made to feel like I was stupid, and have generally developed kind of a bitter taste towards some attitudes in this activity. Fortunately for me this discussion as all a rehash from the kayaking world and I've grown a thick skin, so I stick around and keep asking questions. I'll push buttons until I'm kicked off.

Like Shane said in another post, "the number one way to draw attention to a canyon is to name it". Agreed. And another quick way to draw attention to it is to post pictures and make up false names, and create the impression that there is something incredible there to see that isnt accessible to us, the mere mortal. Instead we are left with that bitter taste of being burned by an elitist group. And I've said this before many times.....when someone asks about a canyon, giving beta doesn't require you to post a full step by step TR. You can very easily say "it's been done....couple raps, a swim", etc. You don't even have to do it on the board. Send em a PM or an email. Even something as simple as "Hey, you were talking about _____ canyon, take the wetsuit." Hell, offer to show them down it. "Sure, I can't send you info but I'd love to follow you along as you descend it..." It's better than not saying a word, because then 1) you get to go canyoneering, 2) you control how the beta is released, and 3) the recipient gets that no-beta descent (provided you are ok not being in point but you should be since you've been there before...). Disclaimer it with the message that you are trusting that person with information you consider sensitive. And yes, to answer someone who's thinking this, how can we get mad about it when we don't know? I've thought about this for a while. And you know what? We know because you let us know. You don't tell us outright about the unknown canyons you descend. But you elude......you touch upon....you do enough to cause that spark in someone's brain to go after that. In a way, you gloat. "Look where we are and you aren't, because you haven't been here for 20 years like we have". But you do it because you feel everyone should do these canyons as you have done them. And that's fine. I'm not going to tell you how to operate. And yeah, maybe we don't know what the exact canyon is to be upset about, but you post enough for us to know they are out there. And doing that is going to generate interest in itself. So inadvertently, NOT talking about a canyon can be just as enticing as talking about it. Its what you DONT say that sometimes gets people excited.

I understand that those who choose to have "secret" canyons are also those that DO provide untold amounts of beta to the community on other canyons, and their is no proper way to thank all of you for what you guys do. Shane, Tom, the BluuGnome, Bo & Tanya, etc, etc, EVERYBODY that provides beta in some way or another is doing an incredible service to the community as a whole and your efforts are always lauded. I dont know how everyone feels about what they do, but I would like to think that most of you do it because you agree with Shane that proper, consistent beta can lead to less environmental impacts. Its choosing to be responsible with how you share that beta, which is what I argued above. If you read the situation and feel like the receiving parties will be responsible with beta that you give them, then what is the harm? Do they absolutely have to trade other "secret" beta? Or are they required to go have an epic in Sandthrax to qualify?

I hope nobody takes personal offense to this. It certainly isn't meant towards anyone. And despite my personal attitudes towards subjects and people, I still have the utmost respect for those that have come before me, and all of my fellow Bogley community members, Because without them so many of these places would still be unknown, and I know every one of you would be a great partner for any adventure. America kicks ass because we can feel and do as we want, free of reprisal. Everyone has their own beliefs and their own actions and I dont begrudge anyone for standing up for what they believe. Hope everyone gets out there and stays safe while having fun!

[mzamp]

:clap:

[MSchasch]

Cute thread.

https://picasaweb.google.com/aramv14/ParadisoLimbo102112#5807711637264976690

[Iceaxe]

Just curious... did anyone bother to take 5 minutes and clean up after the asshat or did you just leave it there?

:popcorn:

60910

[MSchasch]

Just curious... did anyone bother to take 5 minutes and clean up after the asshat or did you just leave it there?

:popcorn:

60910

a better question for the Canyons group, as nobody that was there that day really posts here.

:2thumbs:

[PG Rob]

Ram told me that this ^^^ was etched in fairly deep. They tried to do what they could, but it was still quite prominent.

[Deathcricket]

That should be pretty easy to track down. how many guys out there are named Swim? :haha:

[rockgremlin]

OK, sorry for breaking into your fun guys, but I have a question for Iceaxe: can you provide some concrete examples for your arguments? Your points sound reasonable, but I'd like to hear more about the evidence they are based upon. Thanks.
-john


Just go canyoneering anywhere but Zion. The Roost, The Swell, and Cedar Mesa are heavily criss-crossed with social trails. Except of course the entrance to The Black Hole, which has a parking lot, and an information sign.

[RAM]

Just go canyoneering anywhere but Zion. The Roost, The Swell, and Cedar Mesa are heavily criss-crossed with social trails. Except of course the entrance to The Black Hole, which has a parking lot, and an information sign.

Oh you mean all those places that are beta'd? This logic above escapes me. These topics were discussed on the Canyons group, but as long as Denali Mike has woken the Swamp to the idea, I might as well share what was said over there on two separate threads and posts

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/message/66301

--- In canyons@yahoogroups.com (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/post?postID=8eKdc0FIeTTcDZO_5DGkku3WxvAezvzfmPMQQR 7qC8uKf2vXt3G1Ey29KNNUOAoWHeanRAccz0hjBk2LCfAI), "Ice" <Shane@...> wrote:
>
> >>It is clear that the show not tell system we use is not perfect, but it is
pretty darn good.
>
> I disagree.... from my experiance show don't tell has a positive effect in the
short term but a larger degrading effect long term. The major problems I see
with show don't tell are:
> Folks go loaded for bear when descending the slots because they don't have
reliable beta. This results in both excessive bolting and rope grooves.


What examples can you make? I can't think of anything in the modern era outside
of Zion where the transition from show don't tell to fully beta'd wasn't the
case. And are you saying folks with the gumption to descend slots without
beta...who are strong enough groups to carry the kitchen sink are the cause of
bolting and grooves? Really?

I just visited 2 of the canyons Paradiso and Limbo a few weeks back for the 1st
time since FreezeFest and there being on the beta highway. We found graffiti in
both slots. You going to blame that on show don't tell or the canyons being
beta'd?

This was found at the top of the rap in Paradiso that has the pothole at the
bottom that gets stepped over. It is a 1/6 of an inch deep and will be there for
years, The good news is that most of the white from the scratches buffed out.
https://picasaweb.google.com/aramv14/Graffiti#5805970375788023330
BTW the two slots were in pretty good condition otherwise. Limbo seems to be
getting the respect its R rating implies as most drops that are stiff down
climbs had not sprung anchors.


>
> Lack of reliable beta creates numerous social trails as folks wander around
looking for entrances, exits and rappel stations.

As a rule your beta mitigates most of these concerns. An exception is
Slideanide. Have you been out there recently? Footprints blanket the desert. I
would suggest that you go visit and see. A solution would be to change the
approach info on this canyon to follow the Constrycknine approach until you hits
the Slideanide drainage proper, up high and then send people down that way. Down
one of the upper sandy draws It adds 1/2 mile at least, but.... If you see the
mess I am sure you would work to fix it.

>
> Lack of beta creates problems with land owners, private property, Indian
nations and land managers as more canyoneers "discover" the slot.

An example where show don't tell has done this please.

>
> Anyhoo.... that's my 2 cents.... YMMV.

I'll just take a penny for my thoughts
Ram


And the 2nd post

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/message/66303




--- In canyons@yahoogroups.com (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/post?postID=XNmqr_0GLSUp_qmqOsXCP3WOkAekR9frGIpbtE V-gS9E4FEngSyf1b7kwef01QnJIDLU6M2i_juAjqAnd6Mo), "Luke" <luke@...> wrote:
Show don't tell can take on an "in the club" feel.
Those who get> invited along get to feel special and those doing the inviting
get to set> the rules. Doesn't feel too warm and fuzzy to me.


There has been some misconceptions about aspects of the "show don't tell"
method. It has been assumed by many that it is a club. A group of "friends only"
type of things. Tom has commented on this before. He has said "Just show up and
be polite." He is largely accurate and one need not be polite either. JUST SHOW
UP is about all it takes. I have been with countless folks who I just met once,
whose names I don't remember, who I just met the night before in "show don't
tell canyons. Some of these folks became friends, others seen infrequently or
occasional e-mail exchange. Many lurkers on this group are nodding their heads
in affirmation of this as they read it. Its a VERY inclusive concept with one
caveat...you have to be at the public campsite, not sitting at home on the Net.
Great times were had by all. A closed club? FAAAAAR from it.

Another misconception about the "show don't tell" method is that one is "shown"
through the canyon. Guided, or taught solutions or the like. A long time policy
of our group, in known or unbeta'd canyons is.....THOSE WHO HAVE NOT BEEN
BEFORE, GET TO BE IN FRONT. Might compare notes after solutions are made by
those fresh to the canyon. Might occasionally warn of that rare place that is
harder than it looks. Aside from that, we sit back and watch with much joy, our
new and old friend's process of "discovery." I like to think we are pretty good
hosts. Oh and there are no secret handshakes. Just show up.
Ram
Ram

[yetigonecrazy]

Does anyone else besides me feel like the graffitti was put there intentionally......? Perhaps someone disgruntled with this very conversation? Seems to me that it's kinda coincidental that one of the canyons highlighted in this whole mess suddenly gets a big, nasty, deep piece of vandalism......It's one thing to write a word or a name, but with depth like that, and all the other adjoining marks, seems kinda almost blatantly dongbag-ish.

I dunno. Maybe Im just thinking too out of the box here.

[Iceaxe]

Oh you mean all those places that are beta'd? This logic above escapes me. These topics were discussed on the Canyons group, but as long as Denali Mike has woken the Swamp to the idea, I might as well share what was said over there on two separate threads and posts


Or you could have just read the very first post in this thread which says the same exact thing and spared yourself clicking through a bunch of links to visit an antiquated forum... by the way... are you guys ever going to get that placed fixed up so it can be easily viewed on a smartphone? Heck, that's how I read 90% of the forums these days (there is an APP (http://www.tapatalk.com/) for that).

Anyhoo.... you and I have been through this discussion many times before and the end result is always the same.... we agree to disagree.... but in the end Show-Don't-Tell will lose out as more and more canyons are betaed each year. Show-Don't-Tell is the equivalent of Polaroids in this digital age. And just like Polaroid the system will eventually die or adapt.

A dozen new canyons this year and a dozen new canyons next year, and the next..... pretty soon everything will be betaed... And with guys like Luke and Ryan jumping on board the beta train it just picks up speed every year..... you can only stick your fingers in so many holes in the dike before it bursts. Yeah I know, progress.... what ya going to do? I also long for the days of 50 cents a gallon gasoline.

So my current thoughts on the subject is if a canyon is to be betaed make sure you do it right and do a good job of it. Your milage may vary....


:popcorn:

[hesse15]

61234no need for beta the socialist government provide them!!!!
bill board in the parking lot before the well painted trail!!!
result:only a single well established trail!!!
:bootyshake::2thumbs: