Kolob Times

[Chanobelli]

Just curious to see what times people have posted in Kolob especially later in the season (September - November). Ideally wondering about times to both the Mia Exit route and out through the Narrows. We're trying to do it in one day (October 12th or 13th) with a group of 5 ranging in experience levels from 50+ canyons to as little as 2. We realize we will need to be starting in the dark with it being this late in the season and just curious on your thoughts. My plan is to try to start by 4:30 AM and be into the canyon before light breaks to give us the best chance at finishing near dusk. I appreciate any and all feed back.

Thanks,

[ratagonia]

Just curious to see what times people have posted in Kolob especially later in the season (September - November). Ideally wondering about times to both the Mia Exit route and out through the Narrows. We're trying to do it in one day (October 12th or 13th) with a group of 5 ranging in experience levels from 50+ canyons to as little as 2. We realize we will need to be starting in the dark with it being this late in the season and just curious on your thoughts. My plan is to try to start by 4:30 AM and be into the canyon before light breaks to give us the best chance at finishing near dusk. I appreciate any and all feed back.

Thanks,

You might find the navigation to the START of the canyon challenging in the dark. A gps would help only a little bit. Might want to check it out the day before, and camp at Lava Point.

The MIA trail is in pretty good right now, makes it easier. If you have not done it before, that can be a challenge, especially in the dark.

The road fools many people. I suggest following the directions found here:

http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/utah/zion/off-trail/mia-access-route/

Back to the West Rim Trailhead

From the top of the MIA Route, once on the logging road, turn left (south) and hike about 1000 feet (300 m) to a picnic area with water coming from a pipe. This is the Pipe Spring. Hike the road heading uphill behind the spring 365 feet, then turn 90 degrees right and charge up the hillside, following a somewhat overgrown two-track. Follow this up, then right to the actual source of the spring. Then follow the roads (generally north and west, but always up) to the West Rim Trailhead. Allow an hour for the MIA Route and an hour for the roadwalk back to the Trailhead. First time MIA'ers are likely to take longer.
---
To me, it seems the key to making decent time in Kolob is, obviously, moving efficiently through the technical section, but then also keeping the energy up and the pace moving well between the last rap in the technical section and the bottom of the MIA trail.

Tom :moses:

[ilipichicuma]

When we did the canyon a couple years ago it was the first weekend in October. I think we started our hike around 5:30 and got back to our car just as the sun was about to set. The navigation was a little tricky in the dark, but by the time we got up over the hill it was starting to get light enough to see. We did have a GPS and Tom was right, it only helped a little bit. However, that was plenty of time. There were six of us, varying in experience, and I even broke my arm, so we weren't moving very fast. If you keep going at a pretty good clip you should be totally fine. I think it took us probably about three hours for the MIA exit and also quite a bit of time hiking down the narrows after the technical section

[Chanobelli]

Thank you for your feed back Tom & Cliff

I may have not made my question clear I'm trying to get how much time it takes from the Car to Mia Exit, how long from the Mia Exit back to the Car, and How long from Mia Exit to Finish out the Narrows. If that makes any sense. I understand it will vary do to conditions and experience thus i'm hoping for a lot of times to possibly get a baseline idea of time it takes.

Another question I have do you think a 7/5 mm wet suit is enough protection this late in the season?

Once again Thanks,

[ratagonia]

Thank you for your feed back Tom & Cliff

I may have not made my question clear I'm trying to get how much time it takes from the Car to Mia Exit, how long from the Mia Exit back to the Car, and How long from Mia Exit to Finish out the Narrows. If that makes any sense. I understand it will vary do to conditions and experience thus i'm hoping for a lot of times to possibly get a baseline idea of time it takes.

Another question I have do you think a 7/5 mm wet suit is enough protection this late in the season?

Once again Thanks,

2 hours is a really good time for MIA and the roadwalk, 2-1/2 is a good time, 3 hours is probably more typical.

Casual Pace on the approach gave us 1 hr 20 mins to the first drop: http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/1007kolob/

2 hours through the tech section would be a pretty good time, I think.

1 hour from Boundary to the MIA.

My pics from a previous trip show 2 hours from the last big rappel to the jump in the Kolob Narrows just before it meets Oak.

Let's call it an hour from the jump to Boundary (generous, must include lunch).

Add it all up: 1:20 + 2 + 2 + 1 + 1 + 3 = 10:20.

Out Kolob, you are trading 3 hours for:

4 miles to the North Fork - 2 hours at best?
6.3 miles down the Narrows - 3 hours?
Plus fetching the car, if not otherwise taken care of.

Tom

[Chanobelli]

2 hours is a really good time for MIA and the roadwalk, 2-1/2 is a good time, 3 hours is probably more typical.

Casual Pace on the approach gave us 1 hr 20 mins to the first drop: http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/1007kolob/

2 hours through the tech section would be a pretty good time, I think.

1 hour from Boundary to the MIA.

My pics from a previous trip show 2 hours from the last big rappel to the jump in the Kolob Narrows just before it meets Oak.

Let's call it an hour from the jump to Boundary (generous, must include lunch).

Add it all up: 1:20 + 2 + 2 + 1 + 1 + 3 = 10:20.

Out Kolob, you are trading 3 hours for:

4 miles to the North Fork - 2 hours at best?
6.3 miles down the Narrows - 3 hours?
Plus fetching the car, if not otherwise taken care of.

Tom


So if I understand correctly I'm adding 2 hours best case as well as 10.3 more miles (we're planning on using 2 cars and shuttling ourselves) so realistically I'm going to count on adding 3 to 3.5 more hours plus the 10.3 more miles to enjoy the rest of the canyon? Making the total trip about 13-14 hours. Is that doable with a 4:30 or 5 am start figuring we only have about 11.5 Hours of light according to Gaisma for Zion National Park (http://www.gaisma.com/en/location/zion-national-park-utah.html)?

[Mountaineer]

Another question I have do you think a 7/5 mm wet suit is enough protection this late in the season?



Yes, but I highly recommend a scuba 3mm+ hoodie also if you can find one. It makes a big difference in the enjoyment.

[ratagonia]

Thank you for your feed back Tom & Cliff

I may have not made my question clear I'm trying to get how much time it takes from the Car to Mia Exit, how long from the Mia Exit back to the Car, and How long from Mia Exit to Finish out the Narrows. If that makes any sense. I understand it will vary do to conditions and experience thus i'm hoping for a lot of times to possibly get a baseline idea of time it takes.

Another question I have do you think a 7/5 mm wet suit is enough protection this late in the season?

Once again Thanks,

That seems like an awful lot of rubber. But yeah, it's pretty cold in there. I'd go a newish 4/3 plus the 3mm hooded vest and some capilene underneath, which I think would be lighter (to haul up the MIA) and easier to move in.

Tom

[Jolly Green]

Did this a week ago with some friends who had done it before- 3 of us total. We flew through everything so consider these times as fast. From the westrim trailhead to the first rap took 40 min. Another 2 hrs through the technical part. Took us exactly 5:45 to the MIA exit (with a 30 a min lunch at Oak creek). After another good break, went up MIA in about an hour and were at the car in under 9 hrs.

Never been past MIA so I can't help much with times after that. I can tell you it was in the 30s when we started at 8 am so you better be prepared for a cold bivy if you decide to go out the narrows- just in case. Here's my advice- if you really want to go down to the narrows do boundary canyon. If you want to do Kolob, plan on the MIA.

7/5 wetsuit is probably plenty. Water felt about 40 degrees. It's your hands and feet that will be the coldest- especially on a few of the raps where your big group will be standing in the water. Take extra ropes and set up multiple rappels to keep moving. Hope that helps. Enjoy Kolob- its a great day.

[Jolly Green]

Oh yeah I did it in a 4/3 wetsuit and was plenty warm- actually sweating in a few sections. I am a little hot blooded though. I think the girl in our group did it in a 5/4 and was only occasionally cold.

[Chanobelli]

Thanks for the added info, I appreciate your expertise.

While on the topic of rubber is 3mm neoprene socks enough or should I use my 5mm socks? Sorry for all the questions Just trying to be prepared for the cold.

[ratagonia]

So if I understand correctly I'm adding 2 hours best case as well as 10.3 more miles (we're planning on using 2 cars and shuttling ourselves) so realistically I'm going to count on adding 3 to 3.5 more hours plus the 10.3 more miles to enjoy the rest of the canyon? Making the total trip about 13-14 hours. Is that doable with a 4:30 or 5 am start figuring we only have about 11.5 Hours of light according to Gaisma for Zion National Park (http://www.gaisma.com/en/location/zion-national-park-utah.html)?

I think we have provided you with all the information possible. The difficulty as i see it is maintaining a high level of energy for that long of a time.

Only you can evaluate whether your group is up to the challenge.

Tom

[ratagonia]

Thanks for the added info, I appreciate your expertise.

While on the topic of rubber is 3mm neoprene socks enough or should I use my 5mm socks? Sorry for all the questions Just trying to be prepared for the cold.

I like using wool under the 2mm socks, but for this, this time of year, I would go with the 5mm sock with a heavy wool sock underneath it.

Tom :moses:

[Bootboy]

Experience isn't so much key as is good physical conditioning. I know people who have years of canyon experience over me who are like molasses. And I have friends who are very technically savvy who have no canyon experience but could smoke me through the hike sections. If your friends can rap confidently and hike fast regardless of experience (assuming a baseline of a couple canyons each) you'll be in good shape.

I did that trip with jollygreen and my GF. We really moved, but had we felt pressed to, we could have easily shaved an hour and done the MIA car-car in just a hair under 8 hours. If you take multiple ropes and your group is highly efficient, it is entirely within reason to be the the start of the MIA in 5 hours. Stagger the group a little so you don't have 4 people treading cold water while waiting for a rap to be rigged. We skipped 3 raps altogether and opted for jumping or down climbing. If you do this, use extreme caution. The raps to do this on are pretty obvious but maybe rap the first guy for a depth check. The very last technical obstacle in the canyon is well down past oak creek. It's in a narrows section and has bolt anchors on either side for an 8' drop. Jump it. Don't bother rapping it. Waste of time. But please be careful. If you do these things right, you'll shave a lot of time. If you do it wrong, you'll break an ankle. Just be fast but prudent. Try to eat on the go and keep your water handy so you don't have to take your packs off. All these little things will add up. Wear gloves and 5mm socks. A hood is also advised this time if year.

Toms idea of scouting the approach the night before is a really good idea and could cut the approach time in half. If you're going to scout it the night before, flag some trees with surveyors tape so you can follow it by headlamp light, removing the flagging as you go in the a.m. Good luck, all the way out the narrows is a long slog, especially on baby-head river bed. I'd be prepared for a bivy JIC.

[ratagonia]

Experience isn't so much key as is good physical conditioning. I know people who have years of canyon experience over me who are like molasses. And I have friends who are very technically savvy who have no canyon experience but could smoke me through the hike sections. If your friends can rap confidently and hike fast regardless of experience (assuming a baseline of a couple canyons each) you'll be in good shape.

I did that trip with jollygreen and my GF. We really moved, but had we felt pressed to, we could have easily shaved an hour and done the MIA car-car in just a hair under 8 hours. If you take multiple ropes and your group is highly efficient, it is entirely within reason to be the the start of the MIA in 5 hours. Stagger the group a little so you don't have 4 people treading cold water while waiting for a rap to be rigged. We skipped 3 raps altogether and opted for jumping or down climbing. If you do this, use extreme caution. The raps to do this on are pretty obvious but maybe rap the first guy for a depth check. The very last technical obstacle in the canyon is well down past oak creek. It's in a narrows section and has bolt anchors on either side for an 8' drop. Jump it. Don't bother rapping it. Waste of time. But please be careful. If you do these things right, you'll shave a lot of time. If you do it wrong, you'll break an ankle. Just be fast but prudent. Try to eat on the go and keep your water handy so you don't have to take your packs off. All these little things will add up. Wear gloves and 5mm socks. A hood is also advised this time if year.

Toms idea of scouting the approach the night before is a really good idea and could cut the approach time in half. If you're going to scout it the night before, flag some trees with surveyors tape so you can follow it by headlamp light, removing the flagging as you go in the a.m. Good luck, all the way out the narrows is a long slog, especially on baby-head river bed. I'd be prepared for a bivy JIC.

There's 2 nuisance rappels between the end of the technical section and Boundary. They both can be jumped (usually). Might want to send one person down first to check. There's also one that cannot be jumped, but I think that one is in the section between the last rap in the S Fork of Oak and the intersection with Kolob.

Tom

[ratagonia]

There's 2 nuisance rappels between the end of the technical section and Boundary. They both can be jumped (usually). Might want to send one person down first to check. There's also one that cannot be jumped, but I think that one is in the section between the last rap in the S Fork of Oak and the intersection with Kolob.

Tom

Oh, and...

There's always a question of when do you take your wetsuit off? Hopefully it will be warm, and you can take them off at the bottom of the raps, and persevere through the couple of deep wades and swims (and 2 jumps) between there and Boundary. Best plan. Not that easy to enroll everyone in that plan if it is cold out. A good idea to still drybag up all your stuff when you take your wetsuit off.

Tom

[Bootboy]

There's 2 nuisance rappels between the end of the technical section and Boundary. They both can be jumped (usually). Might want to send one person down first to check. There's also one that cannot be jumped, but I think that one is in the section between the last rap in the S Fork of Oak and the intersection with Kolob.

Tom

Yeah, just 2. That other must be in oak creek.

I like the jumps, I think are fun and turn a nuisance rap into a fun and fast obstacle. :clap:

[Chanobelli]

Oh, and...

There's always a question of when do you take your wetsuit off? Hopefully it will be warm, and you can take them off at the bottom of the raps, and persevere through the couple of deep wades and swims (and 2 jumps) between there and Boundary. Best plan. Not that easy to enroll everyone in that plan if it is cold out. A good idea to still drybag up all your stuff when you take your wetsuit off.

Tom


I'm guessing you opt to take off your wet suit early to increase speed and mobility, or to warm up figuring you can get dry in a reasonable amount of time.

Maybe a dumb question but I've never done canyons that involve water this late in the season and only had to use shortys nor have we ever been in a time crunch where speed was needed.

[Chanobelli]

Experience isn't so much key as is good physical conditioning. I know people who have years of canyon experience over me who are like molasses. And I have friends who are very technically savvy who have no canyon experience but could smoke me through the hike sections. If your friends can rap confidently and hike fast regardless of experience (assuming a baseline of a couple canyons each) you'll be in good shape.

I did that trip with jollygreen and my GF. We really moved, but had we felt pressed to, we could have easily shaved an hour and done the MIA car-car in just a hair under 8 hours. If you take multiple ropes and your group is highly efficient, it is entirely within reason to be the the start of the MIA in 5 hours. Stagger the group a little so you don't have 4 people treading cold water while waiting for a rap to be rigged. We skipped 3 raps altogether and opted for jumping or down climbing. If you do this, use extreme caution. The raps to do this on are pretty obvious but maybe rap the first guy for a depth check. The very last technical obstacle in the canyon is well down past oak creek. It's in a narrows section and has bolt anchors on either side for an 8' drop. Jump it. Don't bother rapping it. Waste of time. But please be careful. If you do these things right, you'll shave a lot of time. If you do it wrong, you'll break an ankle. Just be fast but prudent. Try to eat on the go and keep your water handy so you don't have to take your packs off. All these little things will add up. Wear gloves and 5mm socks. A hood is also advised this time if year.

Toms idea of scouting the approach the night before is a really good idea and could cut the approach time in half. If you're going to scout it the night before, flag some trees with surveyors tape so you can follow it by headlamp light, removing the flagging as you go in the a.m. Good luck, all the way out the narrows is a long slog, especially on baby-head river bed. I'd be prepared for a bivy JIC.

I appreciate the tips to hopefully help us shave off valuable time to make this long adventure do able in one day.

Thanks,

[ratagonia]

I'm guessing you opt to take off your wet suit early to increase speed and mobility, or to warm up figuring you can get dry in a reasonable amount of time.

Maybe a dumb question but I've never done canyons that involve water this late in the season and only had to use shortys nor have we ever been in a time crunch where speed was needed.

Yes. Walking with the wetsuit on takes more energy than walking in shorts and t shirt. If you have a thinnish shortee, you might want to wear that under a thicker wetsuit, then leave that on for the hike out, to lessen the 'shock'.

The problem is, when you get to the swim, and half the people want to put on their wetsuit, and half don't. Can sit down and everyone put em on. But it is faster to not do so, partly because after the swim, without a wetsuit you will be walking very fast to warm up!!!

T